A possible solution to unite all players?

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

?? What?

so this isn't a Cross-Platform Play thread?

[Atsia]

Wow, I'm with everyone else, this is an objectively bad idea.

[Dreddeth]

To imbalance everything into devastation
To unite all players within our nation
To DEnounce the evils of flow and fun
To ruin the game until everyone's done

Armchair Developers blast off at the speed of sound
Abandon thread now, there's no reasoning to be found

[Lezappen]

I love the game as it is right now, I've just finished the star chart and do arbitrations every now and then.

I have the impression mobs stop at lvl 50 in the star chart, meaning that you have the gear to kill lvl 100+ enemies but only have access to lvl 50 enemies.

Going through the star chart at the beginning of the game was fun, however imagine how cool it would be to discover more of the orokin empire outside the solar system, giant artificial stars surrounded by devices harvesting their energy.

A war between the orokin that haven't been affected by the void (who knows) the sentients, or a cephalon hive mind.. who knows what, that would be a fun challenge that would add progession to the game along with new unique challenges along the way.

Imo, nerfing mana or damage to make it more of a challenge doesn't make the game anymkre fun, on the contrary, it makes it more tedious.

What are your thoughts?

(Posting this in a seperate thread as I don't want to derail this thread in any way)

[MdzKnight]

While the intention is appreciated, this is a bad way to do things.

Having different power levels just by having a different number of party members can seriously mess up a player's sense of progression. They can suddenly be empowered or weakened simply because they changed the matchmaking status. It may also have the bad side effect of making people think you're punishing them when they go with partying.

Your idea does have it's place, I think, as a nightmare mode. Having the effect of your mods halved, should be something that players/parties can deliberately select for themselves, so experienced players can prepare for it, and newbies can avoid it.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

On 2018-11-29 at 8:14 AM, Unholy_Ghost said:

- all mods would be rebalanced to 50% at maximum rank(except corrupted mods and a few other high ranked mods);                                                                                      

It's kind of like I was saying when we were conversing about this on another thread, people are not going to respond well to nerfs of this magnitude. The evidence of that is pretty clear on this thread. Messing with mod ranks across the board doesn't bring the game back into balance. Especially since so many mods in this game  are actually chance based. If you want to make things more interesting in the Starchart, cutting everything in half doesn't make that magically happen. We've progressed way too far as a game for it to be that simple. It would take so much Dev testing and re-balancing to make things balanced in the Starchart again. It's basically futile to try that.

I know there are some provisions in this particular idea for playing solo and such, but that's not really going to fly. The majority of the time people are going to play in public squads, making something like this received as an overall nerf. And for the other side of this where it scales up the mods, it's just going to seem like unnecessary powercreep for High level content that there is still very poor access to. It still takes too long for scaling to happen, and with gear so much stronger you'd have to wait even longer for enemies to get interesting. Things would just be incredibly uneven depending on your squad (or lack thereof). That's really just going to result in matchmaking chaos instead of game balance.

It's a lot simpler just to supply some higher level enemies for players (Without messing with matchmaking). People are already building their frames and weapons around Higher level enemies, and testing them in the Simulacrum. Just go to any channel on Youtube if you want to see ample evidence of that. DE is also responding to the player demand for higher level content by building Warframes that Scale now. The only thing left is to give access to some higher level enemies in the actual game instead of just the Simulacrum.

Edited December 4, 2018 by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

[Unholy_Ghost]

I just wanna thank the people who responded to my original post with open minds and delivered solid facts on the opinions pro and contrary to it.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Quote

- mana rechargables would regenerate 5 mana every 0.5 seconds for 30 seconds while standing over the rechargable, instead of 50 for each 2 seconds (total stays the same 300 mana restored);

Haven't seen MP5 mana regeneration since WoW's WotLK! 🤣

The truth is there will never be satisfaction about HOW a game SHOULD be played, as for gamers theres MANY ways they prefer to play. It's usually though the most loudest that get heard, with sometimes game breaking changes as a result.

WoW is in the state it's in (bleeding players) not because of a raider and casual divide, but devs catering so extremely to this or that faction and just rotating the preferences as "no comfort zones" development. It winds up pleasing no one in the end.

The happy medium isn't nerfing, it's buffing. It's WHY WotLK was the most popular time in WoW's history, too. 12,000,000 subs is heck of a lot of PAYING players! @1:25 is the "secret sauce" of player satisfaction. Not more "challenges" and "Us vs Them" divides (Cata came, and it's "He-man" "git gud" mentalities, and the game lost 6,000,000 subs in a year. It never recovered again [boxes sold doesn't translate to KEEPING players satisfied while playing]. Dead MMOs aren't inviting if they're gone after an expansion/major patch is released, too).

The downside of buffing players is the power creep, though. Something any MMO that lasts for years is facing and it's beyond obnoxious. How do you do the math of 4,000,000 hits? Looks great but it's ridiculous and harsh on game engines to process (yes, there's limits to the scaling in the game engines themselves. Why Blizzard has to keep scaling the numbers back down again. The engine can't handle processing numbers that high).

So, any calls to nerf or messing around with the core features of games causes players to bail. Gamers LIKE their comfort zones. They are willing to adapt to changes, but not to the point of 180 degree changes in the game design. When devs do that the only way to save the game is to clean house and start with new leadership (usually they won't, and history is full of former franchises as a result).

Your idea is wonderful for you, but keep in mind how it affects the game play for others who don't play like you do. There is no "silent majority" in gaming, they are LOUD and VERY persuasive, even if it KILLS a game.

[Klokwerkaos]

On 2018-11-29 at 8:14 AM, Unholy_Ghost said:

So in this game there are 2 types of players: those who want challenge and those want to cheese everything and feel like a god.

Those who want challenge are split again into 2 groups: those who want to be nerfed and those who want more high leveled enemies.

The one true sollution to please all of us would be to not have scalling enemies but scalling mods and rechargables adjusted!!!

Example:

First off things that need to be changed:

- all mods would be rebalanced to 50% at maximum rank(except corrupted mods and a few other high ranked mods);

- mana rechargables would regenerate 5 mana every 0.5 seconds for 30 seconds while standing over the rechargable, instead of 50 for each 2 seconds (total stays the same 300 mana restored);

- hp rechargables would regenerate 10 hp every 0.5 seconds for 30 seconds while standing over the rechargable (600 hp restored);

Now when you play on Public mode (with other 3 players) you mods remain unchanged 50% at max rank and rechargable remain like stated above.

But when you play on Solo, Invite only, Friends only your weapon mods rank up to 200% and warframe mods to 100%, mana rechargables change from 5 mana every 0.5 seconds to 20 mana every 0.5 seconds and health rechargables change from 10 hp every 0.5 seconds to 40 hp every 0.5 seconds. This only by playing alone!!!

If  you invite friends to play with you the following will happen:

=> for 1 friend (mods will rank up the same for both of you)  - weapon mods rank up to 150% all other changes stay the same;

=> for 2-3 friends (mods will rank up the same for both of you) - weapon mods rank up to 100%, warframe mods rank up to 50%, mana rechargables change from 20 mana to 10 mana every 0.5 seconds and healt rechargables change from 40 hp to 20 hp every 0.5 seconds.

 

This way everyone wins, if you want a challenge go play pub with 3 other people, if you want to have fun and feel like a god go play solo and if you want to play endurance and play as long as you can go with friends or invite only.

 

Have a good day fellow tennos!

                                                                                                

There is a fallacy here.

I technically am both types of players depending on the content. 

I think most players are too.

When I am grinding out stuff as a matter of grind for labor I just want to do it as efficiently as possible because I don't want to waste time.  I want my generic rewards as quickly as possible.

With an endless mode I am not farming for general rewards I would prefer challenge.

The solutions you propose I think are not very good.

They don't address the core of the problem, and unfortunately the problem is also a solution of sorts for de.

The problem goes like this:

If you dont force vets to play newbie content then newbie zones become barren and new players leave because there is no one to play with unless they habe someone carry them, which is no fun just to get to the "good endgame content" of which warframe has none.  They probably should habe end game content but at best they have mid game content at present.

Instead they force everyone to grind together, which solves the barren newbie zone problem for the most part.  Granted you might have trouble getting a group for an obscure interception or arch mission at 3 am, but mostly it's not a problem.

On the other hand, we now have a new problem which is that we have people at different stages of the game forced to play together.  They have different goals, motivations, access, knowledge and skill levels.  As the game gets bigger the divide between newbie and vet gets more and more drastic.

This divide is so drastic at times I've had new players accuse me of cheating because they can't fathom the types of builds and configurations that are completely within the bounds of the game at the level they are at.  They don't know about primed or umbral mods, status procs, and how to build stuff to one shot clear rooms yet, with warframes they haven't even heard of yet.

As such warframe has a solution.

DE gives each player the tools to customize their own unique experience.

They can:

Play solo

Put their own group together that plays just how they want (I do this very often so I don't see why anyone else cant, granted the groups I look for are for the op folks because I want efficient players that are actually in higher demand and less common)

Change their attitude and say "thanks for the free loot"

Or git gud by upping their arsenal and learning the game so that they can be competitive. 

All of these options are available to players and the only reason ever given to rebutt any of this is because many players feel so entitled/lazy that they feel they shouldnt have to put their own groups toegether.  Since that isnt a defensible position they either adapt or fail to adapt.

The best thing I think de could do is provide better in game instructions, prompts and directives but that also goes against their business model and also works against their twitch and YouTube support communities as well.

It's kind of a catch 22 and someone has to be unhappy sometimes in life, that's how it goes.

People sometimes have diametrically opposed agendas, de cant cater to both at the same time and thus it serves to reason players have to have the tools to customize their experience, and they do, so it's a non issue except for the lazy who lost the right to complain the moment they refused to use the tools they have been given to customize their experience. 

The demands these people make is akin to yelling at DE for not having bloom set to 70 at default.

Some people might want that, many won't, and thus they give you the tools to customize your experience.  If you refuse to use the slider in your display options at that point it's more of a "you" problem than a game problem.

The same goes here with challenge vs farming.

Additionally de gets money from people's laziness.  The answers are out there.  If you dont look it up and learn this game can be completed in all content approximately never, if you do, you reasonably get mr 26 in about 60 days.  I say that because I did it to 25 when that was the max in 4 months and I knew nothing.  Now faster options are available and I know the game and I am pretty certain 2 months is fair if you make it a point just to grind out your Mr and do all your content asap.

Since players don't do their research, they pay to skip.   Since they pay to skip, it's in the interest of de to have grindwalls and have efficiency caps and not explain everything super clearly.

Additionally, having instructions of the girth required for this game that is ever changing would also require constant maintainance and additionally it would be so much data it would destroy most joy for players as they learn and figure things out, and instead sit down for a 6 day long tutorial before they play their shoot and loot game.

As such, the current system works fine, and if it doesn't, there is only one valid reason for that, and it's not a defensible position.

Granted the game can be improved, but forcing players into what one person thinks is fun means other players are forced into what isn't fun for them.

Instead de gives everyone the option to cater their own experience the way they would like, and the tools and options to progress and play any way they might like.

That seems more than fair to everyone, and while that means you might have to put in a little work to get exactly what you want, that's also completely reasonable given the scope of the game.

Consider that when you add more and more customization and complexity to a thing, it means the default will not suit everyone, but everyone can get what they want if they tweak it just a bit with some slight effort and knowledge.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[BlachWolf]

The problem with warframe right now, is that most of the difficulty comes from moding and not really playing the game, the moment you have the right setup, you'll be ablet to oneshot the whole map till level 2000. What warframe needs is not scaling items, but more enemy intelligence and also some tweaks to sertain frame (looking at you saryn, mesa and equinox). Im okay with a nuke frame wiping one room, what im not ok with is when a nuke wipes three rooms at once, with 5 others following afterwards.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Gamers need to read this article written almost 10 years ago. It addresses the issues of a "mature" MMO (that survived for 4+ years) and what happens. Warframe is facing the same issues...

https://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/the-four-year-itch/

The following article is one of the best I read about MMOs and their rise; growing pains; and advice from one of the Ultima developers (that started the MMO craze). I love it because it addresses the TRUTH about the "mature" gaming community itself. Devs need to learn to "let them go". They will NEVER be satisfied and will divide communities with "Us vs Them" mindsets, as they done it all and can't admit they're ready to leave for some other game, too.

http://www.brokentoys.org/

When players have eaten through the content and have nothing left to do, they squabble about the little things to the point of nonsense. They want the "fun" back. They want the "challenge" back, but don't realize it's gone. You have everything the game offers. You got the trophy ... and still not satisfied.

The result is they refuse to see other players are still leveling and still experiencing the game. Drastic changes for them isn't fun, it can cause them to quit. The changes to Mag in 2016, I quit. Because the very reason I came back to Warframe after my stroke was REMEMBERING that Mag had that one button ability that DESTROYED Corpus! I was reduced to playing pet battles in WoW then, as I couldn't move around the dark maps (my sis took me places itself). I couldn't do any dungeons or raids as I couldn't SEE past all the lighting effects. But I remember Warframe and Mag, and I could play both solo even. I got to the point I could play in groups and felt wonderful that I could even compete ... then the changes came and I couldn't play Mag like before. It ruined more than my fun, it ruined how I could even play. I had to find another game altogether to play that didn't have a caves in a dark area; didn't have bright blinding sparkles everywhere; that didn't require aiming first to shoot even.

WHO has the time to play video games for hours a day for months and years, with an income? Yep, the disabled. Because it's cheap entertainment compared to the alternatives. So while the "git gud" folks are there and VERY LOUD in their wants, you will be surprised how many of the player base aren't in college; aren't working; and disabled. They aren't complaining about MOAR content. They want to simply play the game, and long enough without DRASTIC changes as they're still trying to do the EXISTING content. I just opened the map finally, and you I HAVE DONE IT ALL, want to change everything, again.

Devs need to let them go.

If I don't like a game's direction I'll say my peace and leave. Come back to see if it changed, but after over 20 years of online gaming, I see the same junk over and over and over again. Those who have it all, and refuse to admit they got their prize trophies, will KILL your game because at that stage NOTHING is satisfying anymore. They careless about anyone but themselves. Then nostalgia kicks in, and they want your OLD game back (if anyone believes that WoW's Classic game is going to be entertaining longer than the new car smell lasts, haven't played video games for long. Once they reached end game -- which they will as they're TRAINED to get there for over a decade! -- and did it all ... it's The End, again). This is WHY I NEVER race to "end-game" because once I get there, there's little else to do but pick over the game and be a crabby "vet"..

Let them go, devs. Concentrate on the "polish" and help guides (like where is the page for macros???). Make the front door inviting so that kid who got bored of LoL or WoW or Overwatch or CoD or Battlefield, has somewhere else to turn.

Games and gaming evolves. New and periodic players come and go. But if you ONLY concentrate on the "end-game" your game dies because the people who REMAIN are there because they can't admit they did it's all and is time to move along. They're the kids who make college a CAREER itself, instead of getting a job!

20 years now this cycle has gone on. 20 years lets move on from this "end-game" "I WANT MOAR" cancer.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Kevyne_Kicklighter

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

31 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

They will NEVER be satisfied and will divide communities with "Us vs Them" mindsets, as they done it all and can't admit they're ready to leave for some other game, too.

They want the "fun" back. They want the "challenge" back, but don't realize it's gone. You have everything the game offers. You got the trophy ... and still not satisfied.

Devs need to let them go.

Those who have it all, and refuse to admit they got their prize trophies, will KILL your game because at that stage as NOTHING is satisfying anymore.

20 years now this cycle has gone on. 20 years lets move on from this "end-game" cancer "I WANT MOAR" cancer.

This is a pretty cynical take on this imo. Just today I watched the Devstream and tons of veteran players are watching and interested in what the Devs have to offer next. It's not as if nothing is satisfying anymore. There are lots of updates all the time that veteran players can't wait for. 

I have been playing Warframe long enough to get to MR 24 and possess most of the gear that exists.  And personally, I can't wait to see what DE does next. I just hope that it goes in a good direction. And constructive feedback is useful for that. Although, yes there is a lot of feedback that is not constructive.

DE has made some noble attempts at giving Veteran players some sort of "Endgame". Arbitrations and ESO are pretty good examples. I have actually enjoyed these modes quite a bit. I have my criticisms, but they are overall very positive modes for the game. I appreciate that DE made them with us in mind. Really, the main problem I have with them is that they are tucked away at their own corner of the game. I just don't have an incentive to play them as often as I would like. Meanwhile, all these other missions are demanding my attention, and I just wish they could be of a comparable difficulty.

To put it briefly, you really can't generalize a group such as the Veteran community like that. There is a lot more life and enthusiasm than you gave credit for.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

This is a pretty cynical take on this imo. Just today I watched the Devstream and tons of veteran players are watching and interested in what the Devs have to offer next. It's not as if nothing is satisfying anymore. There are lots of updates all the time that veteran players can't wait for. 

I have been playing Warframe long enough to get to MR 24 and possess most of the gear that exists.  And personally, I can't wait to see what DE does next. I just hope that it goes in a good direction. And constructive feedback is useful for that. Although, yes there is a lot of feedback that is not constructive.

DE has made some noble attempts at giving Veteran players some sort of "Endgame". Arbitrations and ESO are pretty good examples. I have actually enjoyed these modes quite a bit. I have my criticisms, but they are overall very positive modes for the game. I appreciate that DE made them with us in mind. Really, the main problem I have with them is that they are tucked away at their own corner of the game. I just don't have an incentive to play them as often as I would like. Meanwhile, all these other missions are demanding my attention, and I just wish they could be of a comparable difficulty.

To put it briefly, you really can't generalize a group such as the Veteran community like that. There is a lot more life and enthusiasm than you gave credit for.

Did you read the links? Go back and read them, especially the one from Brokentoys.org.

The "vets" can't/won't admit they done it all and it's time to leave to play ANOTHER game. The Brokentoys article, even illustrates THE problems. I also agree with him that devs NEED to let the old timers go. They're a prime reason games like WoW are dying, because studios keep catering to a losing base of customers that gets smaller each year, and NEGLECT the front door of fresh faces who haven't gotten to "end-game" and just want to play the game.

A healthy online MMO has more people coming to the game, than people AT "end-game". Games SUFFER when the front door is closed so "vets" can get their way. That's how otherwise popular games bleed out. WoW's remaining 6,000,000 active players are dwindling because Blizzard kerps spending resources on that 10%, while neglecting the 90% that doesn't play "end-game" content (Blizzard even admits, as well as SOE did with EQII -- only 10% does the "end-game' content. Everyone else in playing for their own reasons, be it social or wanting to do something different). In FTP games if they cater ONLY to "whales", the game runs on fumes. I remember in EvE the devs were pleading with the gamer population they NEEDED revenue, but did these "end-gamers" even care? No. They fussed; rioted; and demanded the OLD GAME back.

Games going back isn't evolving it's stagnating.

You want to know what IS cynical, negative and backwards? "End-gamers" who make their income OFF of negativity. So blinded by the PAST, they REFUSE to evolve...

At one time I enjoyed that Heels was the ONLY negative streamer in the barn. But he went full tilt hate, and it's NOT helping. It's the VETS that see the game as trash, because they can't get that "magic" back again.

It's gone. No amount of protests and changes will bring it back!

Just like remakes of TVs and Movies lose it for older folks who remember the original version. I grew up on the original Star Trek. When ST:TNG came it was no longer a space cowboy series, it was cold and clinical. I watched it, but didn't enjoy it. When Deep Space 9 and whatever else came, I didn't bother to follow it. That's for the kids. It's fine, as I still have my space western to watch, instead.

Most "vets" won't be fine until they kill the game out of their "love" though. Squeezing the very life out of it, for their own greed. Heel's video illustrates the negativity of KEEPING "vets" too long, too. They're not happy until they drag everything down to "win" that last dragon fight (and that dragon is Blizzard itself now).

I don't want to see studios DESTROYED. Sometimes they need a heads up for terrible decisions, but not DESTROYED. It's not the new players or those half-way into the game doing this stuff, it's END-GAMERS. They NEED to LEAVE when the toxicity is that crazy they're NOT helping the game anymore.

The OP's idea is one that suits HIM. But he's not relating to 90% of the rest of the players. THAT'S the blindness of "end-gamers". They think only about the game on their terms. Not on the n00bs. Not on those still leveling. Not on improving the overall experience that WELCOMES players. It becomes a den of toxicity that attracts like kind, and the game spirals downwards because vultures are picking it clean.

20 years of this junk. Time to find greener pastures folks. Let the other players even open the starchart and even GET TO end-game before DESTORYING the game for 90% of the players!

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

9 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

The OP's idea is one that suits HIM. But he's not relating to 90% of the rest of the players.

For the record, I don't agree with the OP's post at all. It's a strange mix of nerfs and unnecessary buffs that depend on your squad size. It would be a chaotic mess.

All I really want, is more level 100 or comparable enemies in the game. If it never happens, I'm not not going to turn on DE. They developed my favorite game. I appreciate them too much for that. And going negative against them never solved anything.

I've bought most of the prime accesses. I have invested time into the game. I make an effort to support them with my feedback instead of tear them down. And I'm not the only one. What else you could ask from us?

I'm really not here to get into some gaming philosophy discussion about the history of MMOs or something. I'm not interested in going out to all of these links just for them to make the same point you have.

I really only have one thing to say. A Veteran player base is not just a cancer. Don't generalize.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

For the record, I don't agree with the OP's post at all. It's a strange mix of nerfs and unnecessary buffs that depend on your squad size. It would be a chaotic mess.

All I really want, is more level 100 or comparable enemies in the game. If it never happens, I'm not not going to turn on DE. They developed my favorite game. I appreciate them too much for that. And going negative against them never solved anything.

I've bought most of the prime accesses. I have invested time into the game. I make an effort to support them with my feedback instead of tear them down. And I'm not the only one. What else you could ask from us?

I'm really not here to get into some gaming philosophy discussion about the history of MMOs or something. I'm not interested in going out to all of these links just for them to make the same point you have.

I really only have one thing to say. A Veteran player base is not just a cancer. Don't generalize.

I'm still playing the content since it came out after 2016. But remember there was a time with defense/survival missions people could continue the waves to reach lvl 100+ enemies...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=672276140

[Unholy_Ghost]

You guys do realize that my original post was bassically a difficult setting for players right?

Public being hard mode(cause its a coop game).

Invite only & Friends only medium for having fun with friends.

And Solo being easy mode when you dont want to play with anyone and cheese through.

I'm not trying to ruin your guys game just setting some order in power creep balance, which is caused by an unbalanced mod system.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Unholy_Ghost

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

2 hours ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

You guys do realize that my original post was bassically a difficult setting for players right?

Public being hard mode(cause its a coop game).

Invite only & Friends only medium for having fun with friends.

And Solo being easy mode when you dont want to play with anyone and cheese through.

I'm not trying to ruin your guys game just setting some order in power creep balance, which is caused by an unbalanced mod system.

But your idea shuts out folks who are new and trying to even unlock Earth missions. They don't need the "challenge" as they don't start with primed mods even. They need to open the starchart and survive each mission.

Public should be experience level appriopriate. Not MR30s who played for 4k hrs and ace runs under 5 minutes. New players are going to WALK from one side of the map to the other -- because they can't practice on the Liset. Unless they make their own clan or join a clan, there isn't a training room BUT those missions. They WILL suffer until they get their first mods and learn even HOW to increase the rank of them.

See what I mean about you're thinking of only "end game" and not how new players or leveling players are playing? That disconnect is HOW games die, as everything is just concentrated at "end-game". Then IF the changes happen, the new players are forced to relearn the whole system again, especially if they're halfway opening the starchart. That stuff gets folks to quit.

In a game like WoW when heirlooms required A LOT of grinding to afford, and you finally got the sets leveled ... and you're say at, level 69, and Blizzard brought in auto scaling mods, that invalidated the very reason to HAVE heirloom gear (to fast level) ... you can imagine how players exploded in rage.Because those level 70 mobs hit like a truck and that heirloom gear doesn't help. Gear they worked their butt off acquiring, only to be changed because end-gamers were complaining how easy the game was TO THEM ONLY. Blizzard released auto-scaling and not smoothed out the gradient, so at certain levels you're ONE SHOTED, despite being overgeared with enchants/gems/heirlooms/flasks/pots!

Game mechanics sound easy to change when you have it all. But treating the rest of the game like it's your little brother ... yeah, that's HOW games die. Games need fresh blood not JUST "end-gamers". This is true in sub and FTP/PTW games, too.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

But your idea shuts out folks who are new and trying to even unlock Earth missions. They don't need the "challenge" as they don't start with primed mods even. They need to open the starchart and survive each mission.

Public should be experience level appriopriate. Not MR30s who played for 4k hrs and ace runs under 5 minutes. New players are going to WALK from one side of the map to the other -- because they can't practice on the Liset. Unless they make their own clan or join a clan, there isn't a training room BUT those missions. They WILL suffer until they get their first mods and learn even HOW to increase the rank of them.

See what I mean about you're thinking of only "end game" and not how new players or leveling players are playing? That disconnect is HOW games die, as everything is just concentrated at "end-game". Then IF the changes happen, the new players are forced to relearn the whole system again, especially if they're halfway opening the starchart. That stuff gets folks to quit.

In a game like WoW when heirlooms required A LOT of grinding to afford, and you finally got the sets leveled ... and you're say at, level 69, and Blizzard brought in auto scaling mods, that invalidated the very reason to HAVE heirloom gear (to fast level) ... you can imagine how players exploded in rage.Because those level 70 mobs hit like a truck and that heirloom gear doesn't help. Gear they worked their butt off acquiring, only to be changed because end-gamers were complaining how easy the game was TO THEM ONLY. Blizzard released auto-scaling and not smoothed out the gradient, so at certain levels you're ONE SHOTED, despite being overgeared with enchants/gems/heirlooms/flasks/pots!

Game mechanics sound easy to change when you have it all. But treating the rest of the game like it's your little brother ... yeah, that's HOW games die. Games need fresh blood not JUST "end-gamers". This is true in sub and FTP/PTW games, too.

I'm with others who have posted in response here.

Your views are pretty cynical.

I've proposed solutions that would take literally say, one person to maintain part time to keep the vet community interested while more content is developed for beginner and mid game players.

Also I feel like the comparison here to WoW is really bad.

WoW is all about the endgame.

Warframe is all about the beginners.  They have 3000 hours of content, we have literally 0.

Arbitration was ALMOST there, but it missed the mark in 2 key areas, sustainable cosmetic reward monthly rotations and difficulty that was nerfed into the ground to let newbies play it, destroying any challenge for endgame players.

Saying "screw those guys they did it all" is also bad practice.  While new players might be inclined to make one big purchase, who do you think keeps the lights on for DE in content droughts and spends hundreds or thousands of dollars per player over years of development?  It isn't the casuals, it's the vets.  

Saying forget about them is just bad business practice since while I don't have DE's financials specifically, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that vets can, have been and are a driving force to this game's long term health.  I'm willing to bet a shiney penny that vets spend more plat on forma alone on an average month than new players who buy plat, and that contributes to the health of the in game economy drastically.

DE doesn't "own" the money people spend on plat until it's removed from the game because then that plat still has purchase power.  Until it's out of the game, it's in flux.  Granted DE has cashed the check, but it's not cleared from the ledger until it's fully out of the system, until then it's still a player asset that DE must honor for as long as they intend for WF to be in business, and they have stated over and over again it's a long term commitment for them.

As such I think your approach is fundamentally flawed here.

Ignoring the players because they will never be satisfied is the wrong answer, the right answer is giving them content that doesn't stack more damage numbers like more dojo cosmetic things to grind for or a syandana that they could earn in an arbitration for a ton of vitus essense that's exclusive for six months and is then later released for plat on the market.

This type of challenge and grind doesn't increase the power creep problem but does address the need for challenge and reward for endgame players.

Additionally having viable PVP, raids and clan vs clan activities like the rails would also be excellent options provided the reward structures and maintenance/balance are correct.

That's all it would really take to make "most" vets happy I think.  Obviously some people will never be satisfied, but having temporarily exclusive cosmetic rewards, competitive and larger coop modes (both) would indeed go a long way to make a huge impact into what the vet community keeps asking for over and over and these are not unrealistic expectations.

I think you're painting the vet community with a very broad brush of "those that can't be satisfied" and while that's true of all humans to an extent, that's not really the case here with what vets are asking for vs being unsatisfied no matter what.

Consider how many WF partners have left recently to go play destiny 2 because it provides those things...

This is a thing that can happen and should happen or WF will continue to suffer for it both in reputation and financially.  Alternately, they can reorg and adjust their manpower to bring in more content to satisfy, beginning middle and endgame players and collect more dollars as a result.

 

 

 

[AzureTerra]

On 2018-11-30 at 1:52 AM, bad4youLT said:

energy not mana

Really doesn't matter ~ its typically Blue and powers abilities no matter what you call it in what game

[Unholy_Ghost]

13 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

But your idea shuts out folks who are new and trying to even unlock Earth missions. They don't need the "challenge" as they don't start with primed mods even. They need to open the starchart and survive each mission.

Public should be experience level appriopriate. Not MR30s who played for 4k hrs and ace runs under 5 minutes. New players are going to WALK from one side of the map to the other -- because they can't practice on the Liset. Unless they make their own clan or join a clan, there isn't a training room BUT those missions. They WILL suffer until they get their first mods and learn even HOW to increase the rank of them.

See what I mean about you're thinking of only "end game" and not how new players or leveling players are playing? That disconnect is HOW games die, as everything is just concentrated at "end-game". Then IF the changes happen, the new players are forced to relearn the whole system again, especially if they're halfway opening the starchart. That stuff gets folks to quit.

In a game like WoW when heirlooms required A LOT of grinding to afford, and you finally got the sets leveled ... and you're say at, level 69, and Blizzard brought in auto scaling mods, that invalidated the very reason to HAVE heirloom gear (to fast level) ... you can imagine how players exploded in rage.Because those level 70 mobs hit like a truck and that heirloom gear doesn't help. Gear they worked their butt off acquiring, only to be changed because end-gamers were complaining how easy the game was TO THEM ONLY. Blizzard released auto-scaling and not smoothed out the gradient, so at certain levels you're ONE SHOTED, despite being overgeared with enchants/gems/heirlooms/flasks/pots!

Game mechanics sound easy to change when you have it all. But treating the rest of the game like it's your little brother ... yeah, that's HOW games die. Games need fresh blood not JUST "end-gamers". This is true in sub and FTP/PTW games, too.

No, new players don't have maxed mods like serration or prime mods or even corrupted mods to ease their gameplay trough, so they already have it hard, this change will only level the damage output between beginers and  vets to something of the same level.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

18 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm with others who have posted in response here.

Your views are pretty cynical.

I've proposed solutions that would take literally say, one person to maintain part time to keep the vet community interested while more content is developed for beginner and mid game players.

Also I feel like the comparison here to WoW is really bad.

WoW is all about the endgame.

Warframe is all about the beginners.  They have 3000 hours of content, we have literally 0.

Arbitration was ALMOST there, but it missed the mark in 2 key areas, sustainable cosmetic reward monthly rotations and difficulty that was nerfed into the ground to let newbies play it, destroying any challenge for endgame players.

I think you have made some really good points. Attempting to bring longtime Veterans an Endgame is a noble pursuit. And an Endgame is certainly not some sort of Villainous concept. Certainly not the kind of thing that people should be demonized for wanting. 

I think with the right ideas, like you said it could probably be implemented by a fairly small amount of Dev resources. There is a way to keep Veterans happy. It just requires some give-and-take, and an understanding between players and developer. But if the Endgame discussion is coming up more lately, it's because the ball is pretty much in DE's court right now. We've given our financial support and feedback as usual, we're just waiting to see what they will do for us next.

If you want to check it out, we recently discussed an idea that would take a low amount of Developer time investment to try to keep the Veteran community involved.

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

4 hours ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

No, new players don't have maxed mods like serration or prime mods or even corrupted mods to ease their gameplay trough, so they already have it hard, this change will only level the damage output between beginers and  vets to something of the same level.

This is a FTP/PTW game. They can simply buy maxed mods.

Imagine how they'd feel when they did, and everything changes while they're leveling. Scores of players quit games over that alone.

After 3 years and DE changed Mag, I quit the game. Because I didn't need to relearn playing my main. Was busy still trying to open the starchart and finish the questlines, didn't need that hradache; didn't ask for it; didn't want Mag to change that drastically (because it was remembering she HAD that one button AoE that destroyed Corpus, that brought me back).

Studios make decisions on what ideas they have at the moment. But they don't learn of the ramifications until they release their designs (sometimes with VERY costly consequences).Often because they are removed by what the individual gamers are experiencing (they see the game differently than we do). Look at the Diablo fallout at Blizzard. Logically they made the right decision (mobile is where the money is in gaming, it's a market that has the most growth potential), but the individual gamers are like "HELL NO!". They're "PC Master Race" folks since Blizzard makes PC games. Those with the mega PCs that can work for NASA don't want their niche messed with, despite the writing is on the wall that mobile is the future of gaming (because you're not wired to something and it's much more energy efficient [PCs are like that old Lincoln Continental that maybe got 12 MPG during oil embargoes, then reality hit, and people wanted those Hondas and Toyotas that had 40 MPG!]). If studios don't adapt they will be the next GM and GE and Westinghouse (yes, even EA and Activision-Blizzard can fall. Activision almost kicked the buck before, too).

Gaming has to evolve. But it also has to be realistic. There's general gaming and there's niche gaming. General gaming like the big studios produce has the billion dollar budgets. Niche gaming, if they make $20,000,000 profit they're better than most. They can't afford alienating who they can attract to play their games (especially on their advertising budget), more so if they don't want to be in the straits Daybreak Studios is in now (a lot of mismanagement in the EQ franchise, mostly with Sony because of their super focus on consoles, especially to have went from the #1 MMO to what is left of SOE. They sacrificed PC gaming for Playstation). Dinosaurs go extinct, especially when new tech arrives [WoW toppled EQ due to it's now outdated engine and SIMPLER game mechanics that drew millions in]. The same simpler mechanics that brought me back to Warframe after my stroke. WoW is getting more and more complex and so agility based, as they experience the same drop off as EQ faced when WoW came [that 4 year mudflation mess that's alienating]).

Don't make games complicated. Games like that don't last for long. It's a small niche. Games are for fun, not throwing keyboards in frustration.

Don't change game mechanics so radically people can't even relate to their characters anymore (i.e., making Holy Paladins as Rets! Rets won't heal they're DPS, it ruins a caster/healer subclass as that's not the position they need to be at. Trinity isn't going to melee or lead an assault, she's going to pump shields and bless from a distance!).

Don't change simply because "end-gamers" are bored. That's what the WELCOME sign is for to draw in new players, who still look at your game with amazement, not hate.

Gamers need to also learn if they are bored, it's time to find another game to play. Why? Burn out makes people illogical in their wants. The Diablo mess showed how "end-gamers" conflict with even the needs of studios to adapt to changing tech. That's how companies die if they put all their eggs in one basket, and neglecting that new player experience. Gaming culture NEEDS new players to keep it healthy, or only grumpier old men will remain who wind up hating the game because they did it all and can't admit they did and the game is over for them.

The game is boring to YOU. But keep in mind 90% of the game ISN'T you! Messing with the core features of the game affects EVERYONE. From the newbie to the "end-gamer". Mods are a core feature of Warfrme. Messing with that can cause gamers to quit. THAT isn't helping the game.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

20 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm with others who have posted in response here.

Your views are pretty cynical.

I've proposed solutions that would take literally say, one person to maintain part time to keep the vet community interested while more content is developed for beginner and mid game players.

Also I feel like the comparison here to WoW is really bad.

WoW is all about the endgame.

20 years of seeing the same justifications in online grindy games. It's not cynical it's called being realistic.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/12/7/18131459/daybreak-game-company-layoffs-san-diego-austin

WoW and Warframe is all "end-game", too. Notice what happens when just concentrating on that 10%, too?

https://investorplace.com/2018/12/fortnite-has-damaged-activision-stock/

They lost over 50,000,000 subs across their catalog folks. That includes 3 of my accounts.

My sis just told me you MUST have your HORRIBLE BfA neckpiece upto level 40 to even raid by 8.2. Yeah, WoW isn't doing well as fresh players aren't going to GRIND to 120 levels on their character AND THEN grind for 40 levels on PoS gear (that neck piece is ALL itemized for raiding... not leveling and not dungeons ... THERE IS NO CHOICE OTHERWISE).

What would you feel if you want to change ONE loadout of your OP class and have to pay, say, 1,250,000 credits each time???

How many Index runs can you stomach to fund it, again???

No matter how it's worded in what game and when, it's the same problem: those who have it all slowly kill the game with suggestions that change core mechanics and not caring how it effects the entire game itself. New players look at what they have to do to even compete, turn up their nose, and leave.

WHY should they stay even? New games are released every month. New blockbuster games every 2 years. No need to grind for 2 years to "catch up", they can be at "end-gane" in multiple games in that time.

I bet DE sees the same problem in Warframe, too.

[Unholy_Ghost]

I think you guys are over exaggerating a little bit. Its the same game and gameplay with just different mod stats according to with who you want to play and how you want to play it.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Unholy_Ghost

[racooperii]

1 hour ago, Unholy_Ghost said:

I think you guys are over exaggerating a little bit. Its the same game and gameplay with just different mod stats according to with who you want to play and how you want to play it.

So they're all sad, bored and over-exaggerating now.

You aren't particularly good on clarifying or explaining WHY your solution is superior in comparison to literal paragraphs as to why your idea simply isn't good. This reply you have here is not justification, clarification, or further explanation of why your idea is better.

If your point can't stand up to scrutiny then it is simply a bad point. Rethink your idea and attempt to represent it, taking into consideration all the counter points presented to you.