tridolons need a huge change

[EinheriarJudith]

4 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

Yes, I think it's a huge problem in a community that like to think it's the greatest. They take the "non toxic" behavior way too far and end up in the opposite extreme (accepting leechers as normal). Are our only options either the toxic idiots blaming their team mates all game long (League of legends/ Rocket league style) or the afk leecher who's watching TV on the side while waiting for others to get him his loot ?

Thanks but no thanks. Honestly if I had to pick I'd pick the toxic idiot. It's easy to ignore or disable the chat, but at least they're playing the game.

Yes, Void mode is OP, and dying means nothing. That's why we got Eidolon with all those aoe attacks spam in the first place, but no matter how much they spam, we're stil invulnerable.

i think its more of an issue that DE has been avoiding. its the reason i can play actively and get next to no affinity for doing so, and play passively and score big time on affinity and items. its about time they stop trying to distract people with "Shineys" and start working on the old outdated systems. leeching is becoming more and move of an issue.

ill throw my hand in for a MR lockout, and if we are going to talk about "Gear Check" then perhaps its time DE considers incorporating a proper gear score system that prevents leeching and under gear entry.

[O2D3nTe]

9 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i think its more of an issue that DE has been avoiding. its the reason i can play actively and get next to no affinity for doing so, and play passively and score big time on affinity and items. its about time they stop trying to distract people with "Shineys" and start working on the old outdated systems. leeching is becoming more and move of an issue.

ill throw my hand in for a MR lockout, and if we are going to talk about "Gear Check" then perhaps its time DE considers incorporating a proper gear score system that prevents leeching and under gear entry.

Yet another inconsistent design in the game:

On one hand we have an affinity range, and most players ignore it / don't care. The result is, everyone run on his own and everyone only get a fraction of the affinity. I'm pretty sure this mechanic is one of the main reason Hydron is the place to go for affinity. The map is small enough that everyone is always within affinity range.

On the other hand, bounties will grant you rewards no matter how far from the action you are. Pick one or the other, should players stick together or not ?

I'm not a huge fan of gear score or MR locks, I think we can prevent leeching with smarter design of the underlying mechanisms.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, O2D3nTe said:

Yet another inconsistent design in the game:

On one hand we have an affinity range, and most players ignore it / don't care. The result is, everyone run on his own and everyone only get a fraction of the affinity. I'm pretty sure this mechanic is one of the main reason Hydron is the place to go for affinity. The map is small enough that everyone is always within affinity range.

On the other hand, bounties will grant you rewards no matter how far from the action you are. Pick one or the other, should players stick together or not ?

I'm not a huge fan of gear score or MR locks, I think we can prevent leeching with smarter design of the underlying mechanisms.

gear score is a working mechanic. it has worked for destiny poo, the division, <insert every single MMORPG> if we had it here it would work too.

you've explained the problems i have with the current affinity system. i made a thread about that as well.

 

[deothor]

18 hours ago, Xirka said:

Your ideas would make them trivial, they are easy enough already. 

1. get a sniper rifle

2. mod sniper for radiation dmg <--- Riven pretty much mandatory, otherwise you'll be doing about  10-15% damage and mostly by breaking Eidolons shield.

3. equip chroma/volt

4. proceed to ONESHOT their limbs

5. Talk about "trivializing" yet don't mind "pick META or gtfo" we have right now.

---

I'm not reallt agreeing with those ideas, as they aren't really fixing the problems.

1st Eidolon is fine and allows players to learn the mechanics pretty well

2nd is also pretty fine, although the skill curve is ALOT higher and requires you to use trinity

3rd Eidolon, however, is totall bullS#&amp;&#036;. Instant lightning that kills even 700hp Operators with 2 hits that take less than a second between strikes, AOE-instakills and bombarding that pretty much forces you to go into void-hiding for 30 seconds while your whole screen is white and shaking from all the auto-aim projectiles that seek you.

What would I want to see changed with Eidolons:

1. Reduce their bullS#&amp;&#036; damage reduction, where the only right weapon to deal with them are snipers. This is major thing. Not being forced to use 1 of only handful only working builds is a effing must. If someone has well build radiation tigris/grakats/soma/boar./WHATEVER, then this should work just as good as sniper rifles

2. Change Eidolon #1 and #3 bombardment to be free-falling with decent spread rather than autoaiming at you. 

3. Increase lightning warning on Ediolon#3 from 0,5s to 1-2s. Not evryone plays with <50ping and not everyone has weapons that allow them to instantly void themselves

4. Remove green AOE balls of death burst from Eidolon #3 that explode at the same time as Eidolon spark. They might have been usefull when teams had no clue how to speedrun Eidolon, but now, they are just dumb instakills. Add new mechanic like.. 5-10s silence if you let them burst?

5. Make pets immune to most of the bullS#&amp;&#036; damage Or let them take reduced damage. It sucks especially when you use  low-armor/hp/shield frame so your pet also scales badly. For real, my kavat gets knocked down every 1-2 minutes.

6. Increasing night time or making us somehow... spawn night... would be nice too.

 

That's about it from me. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by deothor

[Xirka]

Oh I know there is an issue with the attitude about the meta, but that is a different story. People always think their way is the best/only acceptable way.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

Im gonna guess your a new player right? And if that is the case you shouldnt be doing the Tridolans until you are fully modded out and have a decent amp. As well as understanding the mechanics and que for every attack for the 3 Eidolans. They are trivial once you do these things and put a bit of time in on them and they require no change. Veterans like me have an easy enough time taking them down and it doesn't need to get any easier to please the super casual players...

[Teridax68]

The problem at the moment with Eidolons, imo, is that their difficulty is extremely binary: when playing with high-level team compositions, Eidolons are complete pushovers, because they get their shields and health destroyed before they can use many abilities, and long before they get to use a shield regeneration ability (and even when that happens, it's swiftly dealt with). By contrast, if the team isn't optimally equipped, players will usually die from an onslaught of virtually unavoidable damage, and the Eidolon itself turns super-spongy as it constantly regenerates shields over time. Because of this, organized teams can run multiple Tridolons in one night, while others may struggle with just one. It is also because of this that I find it difficult to say whether Eidolons need a buff or a nerf: on one hand, they're already inaccessible to players below a certain gear level, unless these players go into a pub team with better-equipped folks. On the other, even the biggest Eidolon right now is a complete pushover against a veteran, which means Eidolons have ultimately failed to provide the endgame challenge fantasy one would expect from them. Additionally, there are a host of other problems tied to Eidolons, namely a series of enduring and frustrating bugs (e.g. Eidolons teleporting away despite being next to a charged lure), as well as some pretty bad gameplay tied to Eidolon Lures, which are poorly indicated and a general hindrance to what can otherwise be a pretty fun fight.

Because of this, I'd agree with the OP that Eidolons need a bit of a rework, even if I disagree that they need a nerf. To me, Eidolons should be challenging at all player levels, which means that if a player is better-equipped there should be a way for them to be more challenging, not less. On the flipside, I also think fighting an Eidolon needs to be fair, which means minimizing the amount of cheap damage they can inflict (though also making the rest of their damage serious in compensation). Some suggestions I had in mind that could achieve this:

• For starters, simply get rid of lures, so that we only get to kill Eidolons, and replace their rewards with Eidolon capture drop tables. Eidolon lures are a poorly signposted mechanic that ultimately achieves nothing except add a layer of useless complexity. Lures do not add positively to gameplay, and in fact mostly just generate a significant amount of frustration due to a lot of associated inconsistencies (e.g. lures standing in front of players and blocking their aim, lures not charging up from the deaths of nearby Vomvalysts, lures not properly tethering the Eidolon despite being in its vicinity, and thus causing accidental teleports or kills), so removing them entirely could be a pure benefit to the mode.
• Change the Eidolon's projectile rain attack so that the impacts are clearly signposted. As it stands, the effect looks super cool, but is mostly just a giant pile of random, unavoidable damage, so the only two real options end up being to either wait out the whole thing in Operator Void Mode, or eat the damage.
• Remove the return wave from the Eidolon's ground slam, but double the initial wave's damage. The first wave is telegraphed and should therefore be a clear signal for players to dodge, which also means it should punish players who don't pay attention. By contrast, the return wave hits players from behind when there's already an Eidolon to worry about, and while that kind of gameplay could be okay in a more typical MMO, it doesn't really work well with Warframe's tight third-person perspective. Shifting the damage to just one outward wave could therefore satisfy the best of both worlds by raising the stakes and removing some cheapness from fights.
• Remove the Hydrolyst's instant EMPs. This is perhaps one of the cheapest moves in the game, as it's a near-instant burst of potentially lethal damage that also drains the players' Energy. It doesn't make the fight more challenging, because players usually don't have the opportunity to react to it, even if it does sometimes cause team wipes, so in effect it adds nothing but frustration, and no real gameplay.
• Fix the bugs. There are a bunch of bugs that have existed since PoE got released, and have shown no sign of disappearing. Eidolons will continue to cast abilities even if they're interrupted in the middle of their animation, Vomvalysts will often spawn very little or not at all, even during the summon phase, and sometimes rewards will not spawn at all. DE needs to do a solid pass at this, as the frequency with which certain players run Tridolons means there's an acute general awareness of these issues.
• Add more moves, and increase the damage of existing ones. There's potentially more gameplay to be had from Eidolons and their mysterious abilities, and several of their current moves don't do much against kitted-out players. Increasing their damage could be fine in an environment where every move feels fair to play against.
• Add some degree of resistance adaptation to Eidolons, and reduce their base durability. They're meant to be Sentients after all, and having them adapt to rapid instances of high damage could help equalize fights between lower- and higher-level players. Ultimately, this comes down to a problem with the game's entire balancing of its damage, but right now Eidolons are either super-spongy or get one-shot, which makes them either inaccessible or trivial. There needs to be some sweet spot so that Eidolons always take a reasonable, but not excessive amount of time to kill.

There's likely more to this, but that I think could cover the bases. 

[Ventura_Highway]

13 hours ago, Daisaku said:

The problem with Eidolons IMO is that there is no 'real' penalty if the Operator dies, and the Operator is invincible in Void Mode.

These are more problems with the Operator than with the fight I'd say. Void Mode with the Operator is the only reasonable way to avoid the energy spikes though, discounting high mitigation warframes. They cover quite a distance. I'm not saying we shouldn't be expected to bring certain frames, but still, the fight shouldn't be that inconvenient in an unprepared group.

EDIT: Nevermind my disagreement? Maybe this sort of halfassery causes more problems than it solves.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Ventura_Highway

[(PSN)Gerbizzzle]

On 2018-11-29 at 10:41 AM, iHaku said:

stop running steel charge zephyr for eidolons or loadouts that just dont make sense.

Hahahahahahaha. This is by far, THE MOST IMPORTANT piece of information. Hahaha. 

[RaZalTheOne]

On 2018-11-30 at 3:45 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

this is the only part of your post i absolutely loath. it is not mine or anyone elses job to carry people. and people with this mentaily are troublesome because they want everything for nothing.

i could easily do tridolon with my gear but..... i dont like the attitude of premade groups and public matchmaking well... again people expect to be carried and something needs to be done about that.

Sry, but i dont think you got my point. I am not at all saying that it is good or even acceptable that players go into tridolon with zero equipment. I am basically stating a fact. If you choose to go to Konzu and join a random tridolon hunting party, you have to be prepared to see mr whatever folks with khora, lvl 0 boltor prime, lvl 0 mote amp, that actually FLAME you and tell you they are carrying you (really happend to me). I told my team lets go fish and let khora handle things and us 3 went and got us some norg^^

So i am not saying you "must" carry other players, i am just sayin that is the reality of random groups.

[Wolfchild07]

At MR 26 I don't bother with any game mode than pigeon-holes me into bringing w, x, y, or z frame. So out of 37 frames I can bring one of 5-10 of them? Out of 300+ weapons I can bring...a sniper. Nah thanks, that's not interesting or fun. It's boring and stale. Doesn't need to be "easier", just needs to be changed somewhat.

[Marvelous_A]

If anything they need difficulty not more braindeadity

[EinheriarJudith]

4 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

If anything they need difficulty not more braindeadity

the only way to make them more difficult is for the gear to not exceed the current difficulty which they do.

[iHaku]

15 hours ago, Wolfchild07 said:

At MR 26 I don't bother with any game mode than pigeon-holes me into bringing w, x, y, or z frame. So out of 37 frames I can bring one of 5-10 of them? Out of 300+ weapons I can bring...a sniper. Nah thanks, that's not interesting or fun. It's boring and stale. Doesn't need to be "easier", just needs to be changed somewhat.

you arent required to bring any of the frames that are really good for it. you can do it with literally any frame, it's just gonna be harder. almost like the entire rest of the game which gets harder or easyer depending on what frame you choose to bring for the job.

imagine doing a rescue mission. you can bring anything, doesnt matter. you can do it with every frame. but volt/nova/nezha or simply but "movementspeed frames" are just gonna be better because the objective is to run. they are simply better for that job. Same goes for defense: a frame that's good at defending an immovable object by either blocking enemies from attacking it or simply by being able to kill everything before it gets there, is inevitably going to be better at this gamemode then, say, wukong who doesnt have many tools to do that, but instead is great at not dying in endless durvival.

^same goes for the weapon(-type). you arent in any way required to bring a sniper. some people recently demonstrated how good kitguns actually are against tridolons (catchmoon and rattle), and man they do a lot of damage. it's simply the sheer amount of dps snipers are capable of doing compared to literally all other weapon types as long as you factor in the drop-off distance for the upper limbs. you can kill them with a burston if you really wanted to, it's not gonna be as efficient or fast, just like the frame you brough. Tigris for example can easily destroy the knees, but because it's a shotgun, may have trouble killing hydros shoulders without the archwing.

It's just that you have to mod for the right damage type (you can thank damage 2.0 for that and direct any complains that way), strip it's armor to do more damage (direct complains towards any armor discussion thread) and cant abuse zenuric damage multi as much on automatic guns and shotguns (those complains go towards the focus system, thank you very much)

In warframe, bringing the right tools for the job has to matter regardless of how you look at it. if anything whould bring the same results then that'd mean that every frame is the same. Warframe is also a game about having absolutely absurd power and specific strengths. take that away and you're left with a very bland game.

there's also a lot of things to do. if you dont like the eidolon fights: dont do it. it's entirely optional. but if you're limiting yourself in the gear that you want to use, then you'll limit your effectiveness in the gameplay modes that it doesnt exceed at.

Edited December 3, 2018 by iHaku

[(PSN)teacup775]

On 2018-11-29 at 11:04 AM, dreadgame said:

The biggest problem with tridolons is keeping the lures alive so the only reasonable way to capture all three while playing solo is to bring trinity and I don't want to play using this frame. 

Capped tridelon twice (only one per nite cycle) with Chroma. Lures need to be managed without heals but it’s possible.

[EinheriarJudith]

would also be nice if lure health bar showed up in the HUD where pets health bar is.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2018-11-29 at 2:52 PM, (PS4)Kamranos said:

I actually agree with the OP. I think aiming the game towards the top tier players is just a bad call. Don’t get me wrong, I am a MR25 who has taken down all 3 with just me and my wife playing. I also can see things from the stand point of the average player. At the very least, bring terry’s entry level down so medium level players can stand a chance. 

Many people seek to forget what it was like before task based squads with maxed focus trees and amps, but I do and that was nearly 5 years ago for me. Some things should not be accessibly to the brand new players, but medium players should not be excluded either.

I'm mid level and got into it fine. My only advantage was that I'd taken my time and done a lot of time on the plains so I could craft a 111 almost immediately and a 222 shortly after. 

Doing the Terry is how I got a lot of the  focus to unlock the first few way bound nodes. 

The difference between me and the original poster is that when faced with difficulty beyond my skill level, my initial response is to try and get better, not demands that it be nerfed to my level. 

 

One time I was dropped into a public Terry hunt and was joined by some complete newbs. They tried really hard but just kept dying. I could just solo it by that point so I did, and barely noticed the conversation they were having. While extracting I told them that they should read the wiki before the next time. One said "OK" the other response was "don't tell me what to do". That's the source of a problem that's really hard to fix. 

 

On 2018-11-29 at 2:59 PM, iHaku said:

as i mentioned already, i think the biggest problem here is simply the entry barrier.

you arent told at all how they function, onko gives cryptic or partially false information about how they work and you're given an amp that even with 4 players on that amp could barely scratch terry. that's the real problem. they arent hard.

when i do pblic terrys because i wont find a group for another hydro in a night i often see people bringing entirely useless frames, some not even owning archwings and using Mot amp at mr 18+. That's the problem.

give any player the required information, a gilded 111 amp and tell them what frames are "usuable" and they can take down hydro easily in a group of 4 even without any waybound shools or void strike/wisps.

 

i'm not saying they are fine as is, especially the epileptic screen cancer of the meteor rain on hydro can definetly be tuned down, but nerving them is definetly not the right answer.

Can confirm 100%. Sometimes you get a good group with nice synergy. Most of the time you will get at least one who is clearly not ready for the hunt. 

[ariivanasan]

so we now have orbs, which we can repeat any time, without waiting 1.5 h.

why we still dont have same "no waiting 1.5h period" in eidolons?

[(PSN)negativ21]

I'd disagree with any statement that eidolon are binary or easy. i definitely dont want a nerf or to make them easier like the OP, but just remember that there are plenty the of players out there who, with a full decent squad (no arcanes or vs, etc, but with 2/2 or 3/3 amps and good comp) can still barely tricap in 1 night. And that's assuming all 4 ppl are relatively experienced. If you get 1 or 2 who are not, it gets harder from there. 

My point is that alot of the difficulty gradient for terrys or tricaps for us non-maxed players (no h8, just being precise) is that we don't always find perfect squads and that makes us have uneven kill times and effort levels. If you have all of the gear you just say inv and go, and likely will get similar ppl, but if not ur kinda just taking who u get. 

It's not a problem and u love the fights, just saying it's not as peachy as it looks from up there when ur all maxed out haha. 

Some1 will probably flame me for "sucking", but I'm tryna say eidolon are doing their job of being a challenge for a pretty fair portion of the community Imho. Hell buff em too IDC. 

[(PSN)negativ21]

I'd disagree with any statement that eidolon are binary or easy. i definitely dont want a nerf or to make them easier like the OP, but just remember that there are plenty the of players out there who, with a full decent squad (no arcanes or vs, etc, but with 2/2 or 3/3 amps and good comp) can still barely tricap in 1 night. And that's assuming all 4 ppl are relatively experienced. If you get 1 or 2 who are not, it gets harder from there. 

My point is that alot of the difficulty gradient for terrys or tricaps for us non-maxed players (no h8, just being precise) is that we don't always find perfect squads and that makes us have uneven kill times and effort levels. If you have all of the gear you just say inv and go, and likely will get similar ppl, but if not ur kinda just taking who u get. 

It's not a problem and u love the fights, just saying it's not as peachy as it looks from up there when ur all maxed out haha. 

Some1 will probably flame me for "sucking", but I'm tryna say eidolon are doing their job of being a challenge for a pretty fair portion of the community Imho. Hell buff em too IDC. 

[Chaemyerelis]

I see a couple of problems with eidolons.

First the narrow amount of frames and weapons that are worth while to bring against them. 

Secondly the damage you just can't dodge because there's just too much crap flying around at once, more specifically the bolts flying off their joints. Everything else I'm fine with. 

And finally the barrier to entry is silly. Buff that mote amp pls.

[Tyreaus]

It's relatively minor, but it'd be nice to not have synovia health reset when one is destroyed. I'm better off not shooting at the Eidolons before the last phase because A: nobody puts a marker on a targeted synovia so B: I'll likely end up damaging one, just to have another busted by a Volt or Chroma and having my contribution go entirely to waste. I get the idea behind wanting players to work together and focus fire, but it's so rare that that's ever necessary with the damage one player can output. It'd be nice to be able to do something in that.

_{Also yeah 5 is true, too. More nights ples?}

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

On 2018-11-29 at 10:52 AM, (PS4)Kamranos said:

I think aiming the game towards the top tier players is just a bad call.

What are you talking about? You don't need to be a "top tier" player to hunt Eidolons. Are you seriously upset that the game has some slightly challenging content?

[(PSN)Kamranos]

15 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite God said:

What are you talking about? You don't need to be a "top tier" player to hunt Eidolons. Are you seriously upset that the game has some slightly challenging content?

Did you even bother to read my entire comment or did you simply stop at that sentence and fly off the handle?

the Eidolon Hunt isn’t even a challenge for a task based squad or even a pair of players who know what they are doing. For someone who has just been given a Mote Amp and unlocked Focus, it can be extremely frustrating due to the complete lack of information outside of the wiki. Players should not be required to “look it up online” just because the game itself fails to properly instruct. Lowering the main Teralyst from 50 to 35 would help those with the junk you start with. More importantly, adding actual information when approaching them would help tremendously. Onko is cryptic enough as it is, new players shouldn’t need to solve the alphabet soup of his dialogue just to know what to do.

[Elementalos]

Have to agree that the real problem here is how annoying DE made it to get into the Operator system. Leveling up focus initially and getting your first decent amp is way more tedious than it needs to be.