Conglomerated Wukong rework

[Annhouse5487]

So what about adding clone ability for wukong?

having clone ability can increase his survivability and DPS

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, Annhouse5487 said:

So what about adding clone ability for wukong?

having clone ability can increase his survivability and DPS

See below.

On 2018-12-07 at 1:30 AM, DeMonkey said:

My only issue with this is, Warframe's AI is.... not good. 

If you take what I've proposed here and weigh it up against say, a couple of clones that may do something, and may just get shot a bunch.... would it be worth it? Would they use the staff as would be expected, or would they use guns so that they're actually effective but run counter to what Wukong is all about?

I guess you could say I'm not really a fan of clones being the focus of an ability, although if they were included as a secondary feature I'm sure they could be cool.

 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

@DeMonkey

I greatly agree with Stat and Passive adjustments

These are some ideas towards a Wukong rework to fit Wukong Theme and keep some of current Wukong Ability traits.

Because of Fortuna, I can see Wukong rework going like this:
Iron Jab can become Primal Fury charge attack. Arbitrary 10m range restriction removed. Would also work as Melee 3.0 Heavy attack.

Cloud Walker can become an Invisibility K-Drive...Augment leaves Cloud as an Invisibility placement (like Cloak Arrow) on Dismount. 
Mounting and Dismounting Cloud Walker (Nimbus) could be an Iron Jab into ground animation that retains the AoE stagger (finisher setup)

Defy left as-is but with each Trigger Synergising with a new Clone ability:

New Clone, but let each Defy Invincibility trigger (without recast) add a Shadow-Clone to the casted Clone, up-to limit of 3 Shadow Clones. (Equinox Duality specter but Specter gets Mirage Hall of Mirros with each Defy-Trigger)

Defy-Triggers will refresh Clone duration. Recasting Defy will start a timer countdown similar to: Oberon's decaying Buff of Renewal on turn off. If reactivated in that time period Shadow Clone buff remains at same level of 3 for when Clone is recast. This allows for sustainability in keeping Clone with 3 Shadows-up for duration length without having to start from scratch if Clone and Defy are recasted.

If Clone remains with Equinox Duality AI, but ability to be buffed by a Shadow-Clone (Hall of Mirros) with Defy synergy...I think that would fit the bill.

Equinox Dualtiy AI would mean: Clone would only use active weapon when cast. In this case Primal Fury can be considered an active weapon when cast.

**Unsure about self-harm to Wukong via Clone and Shadow Clones: If like Equinox Duality the lingering Pox/Torid/Zakti clouds allow for Defy-Triggers that could be a good thing or it could be a liability.

Augment for Clone ability, can be that each clone kill is 50% chance for additional loot.

Edited December 10, 2018 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Nacond]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb DeMonkey:

Hmmm, that does sound like something that could be wonky.

If such a thing were fixed, what would your thoughts be?

Ok it was fixed as far as I can tell. But - testing in captura mode - I often can't attack enemies with clear LOS... 

Another way to combine clones and dash:

Pressing 1 releases a clone charging from wukong to the target, attacking and throwing them on the ground. After that the clone remains for about 0.5 seconds. In this time, pressing 1 again, teleports wukong to the place the clone is standing (similar to nezhas 2). 

[DeMonkey]

50 minutes ago, Nacond said:

Pressing 1 releases a clone charging from wukong to the target, attacking and throwing them on the ground. After that the clone remains for about 0.5 seconds. In this time, pressing 1 again, teleports wukong to the place the clone is standing (similar to nezhas 2). 

Not a terrible idea, but I worry that it'll take too long to actually get around like that.

[(PSN)Zwaks]

On 2018-11-30 at 3:33 AM, DeMonkey said:

Cloudwalker replacement:

I made, surprise, a thread sometime ago detailing changes to the the ability, but I've altered my thoughts enough to not be too bothered about linking it.

What I'd like to see is something that replaces it completely, but retains all the functionality it provided. To that end I suggest 3 separate transformations that Wukong can use like Ivara's or Vaubans's Quiver/Mines.

Transformation #1 (25 energy):

This would remain a cloud in free flight, but sped up to at least bullet jumping speed. Enemies that you pass through are temporarily blinded, but not open to finishers.

Transformation #2 (50 energy):

Wukong becomes beastial and charges on all fours, growing a giant maw in the process and performing a finisher attack on his target (think Sahasa Kubrow finisher). Similar hard lock mechanic to the new Iron Jab, but different purpose, same way Garuda has 2 hard lock dashes with different purposes.

Wukong gains DR if the enemy is killed by the attack, and nearby enemies are terrified for a short duration.

Could be a strong ability, but is intended to be best used after already weakening the enemy to ensure the finisher kills it. Obviously at lower levels this will just kill everything except a Nox without much trouble.

Transformation #3 (50 energy):

Wukong somersaults into a controllable Grineer roller that speeds forward. Fully steerable, and drags enemies along with it similarly to Tidal Surge allowing Wukong to group enemies up for himself or allies.

Allows for potential synergy, perhaps by driving enemies into ally AoE's or even depositing them somewhere for Gara to use as a health buffer for her Mass Vitrify.

I love what you suggested be done here. My only let down was Transformation 3. When I read, "Wukong somersaults into a controllable Grineer..." I thought you were going to say Grineer unit. As I always thought that, following the legend of Wukong, he would be able to transform into his enemies or even their minions, and walk past enemies detected but not suspiciously, as they would all think that he is their ally. Felt this would be very useful for missions like Spy where he would walk past cameras and lasers, and they won't trigger alarms. As for other missions like Survival, Defense, Excavation, Defection and Exterminate, this would make enemies not target him until he kills an enemy in front of their allies at which point the facade would fail, and Wukong would just become his regular monkey self. Of course this transformation would be based on the enemies he's facing. (Wouldn't be very useful to transform into a Grineer unit when facing the Corpus or Infested, now would it)

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Zwaks said:

When I read, "Wukong somersaults into a controllable Grineer..." I thought you were going to say Grineer unit

Sorry 

I understand that DE have stated that there are issues with such a mechanic, and the cloud should perform the stealth role just fine, imo.

[Autongnosis]

I'll just drop by with my minimal Wukong playtime to say why i don't enjoy him, more than what i would change. I read your proposals and they don't sound bad at all tbh. 

The first and foremost thing Wukong needs is to actually respond to modding. Half of his abilities use nothing but efficiency. The rest are either bugged/wonky (range on primal fury) or unreasonably capped. 

There is literally no reason to build for any ability metric on wukong past efficiency. Unless you like his staff in which case you might want some strenght. 

That's a huge issue. Even more so because the other big mod group, surviveability, is made completely useless by Defy. Why would i want to build for hp and armour when it's directly counter to how his god mode works. 

On top of that, his skills do not interact in any way, shape or form. Which is really bad. 

And as a last note, the model of his staff looks like crap tbh. It's ugly as sin. 

 

As fas as your changes go, i think they might be interesting. Tbh i have only two inputs to leave. 

The first is about Iron Jab. I like your idea of making it into a pounce but tbh i would also add an alternative. You can tap it to pounce at things and do some serious single target damage maybe. Then I'd personally like for a hold cast option that does a frontal tree smash with the staff doing moderate damage and a cone AoE rhino stomp-like lift. You could also use that to make sinergies in his kit, and port that effect to the Promal Fury staff. 

The other is about defy. I like that you went with the aggro + HP regen way, but an alternative I'd really love to see would be cloning. That could potentially be very fun and could have all sort of interesting mechanics. 

Peace out. 

[(PSN)Zwaks]

5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Sorry 

I understand that DE have stated that there are issues with such a mechanic, and the cloud should perform the stealth role just fine, imo.

Curious. Can the cloud sift past the lasers undetected? I have yet to experiment with this.

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

(range on primal fury)

You can chalk that one up as irrelevant. Even with 34% range it only takes 30 hits to reach the cap.

10 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Even more so because the other big mod group, surviveability, is made completely useless by Defy. Why would i want to build for hp and armour when it's directly counter to how his god mode works. 

It's also the other way around, building for survivability makes Defy completely useless.

For example, my Umbral build also uses the Health/Armour Gladiator mods, giving me around 700 armour, 1,250 health and 30% more modded crit based on the multiplier. Add that with the other Gladiator mods on my melee and the Power Strength from Umbral Intensify and the staff hits for hundreds of thousands with no need to build for anything else.

10 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

And as a last note, the model of his staff looks like crap tbh. It's ugly as sin. 

You take that back, you monster. It's adorable.

10 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

The first is about Iron Jab. I like your idea of making it into a pounce but tbh i would also add an alternative. You can tap it to pounce at things and do some serious single target damage maybe. Then I'd personally like for a hold cast option that does a frontal tree smash with the staff doing moderate damage and a cone AoE rhino stomp-like lift. You could also use that to make sinergies in his kit, and port that effect to the Promal Fury staff. 

Not opposed to adding more stuff that'll add to the fun.

10 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

The other is about defy. I like that you went with the aggro + HP regen way, but an alternative I'd really love to see would be cloning. That could potentially be very fun and could have all sort of interesting mechanics. 

It could be, but as mentioned a couple of times I do have my concerns regarding clones.

I'll do some testing tomorrow with a gunless Spectre to confirm, but I remember it being godawful, and certainly not something you want as a main focal point of an ability.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Zwaks said:

Curious. Can the cloud sift past the lasers undetected? I have yet to experiment with this.

It cannot sadly, although I wouldn't be opposed to allowing it to happen.

However, I suspect that if it were able to, DE wouldn't buff the speed of it, because Ivara  the queen of stealth has to go pretty slow whilst using Prowl and avoiding lasers.

Edited December 10, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Autongnosis]

il y a 17 minutes, DeMonkey a dit :

1) You can chalk that one up as irrelevant. Even with 34% range it only takes 30 hits to reach the cap.

2) It's also the other way around, building for survivability makes Defy completely useless.

For example, my Umbral build also uses the Health/Armour Gladiator mods, giving me around 700 armour, 1,250 health and 30% more modded crit based on the multiplier. Add that with the other Gladiator mods on my melee and the Power Strength from Umbral Intensify and the staff hits for hundreds of thousands with no need to build for anything else.

3) You take that back, you monster. It's adorable.

Not opposed to adding more stuff that'll add to the fun.

4) It could be, but as mentioned a couple of times I do have my concerns regarding clones.

I'll do some testing tomorrow with a gunless Spectre to confirm, but I remember it being godawful, and certainly not something you want as a main focal point of an ability.

1) ye that's basically what i meant by wonky. I was super jazzed when they teased him, went balls to the wall with power range and range on the melee annnnnd... 4m hit range. Wtf. 

2) i was saying that more as in, defy being there, survivability mods become unnecessary weight. If you put them in defy becomes not useful, and defy makes them not useful. It's a cycle of opt outs that makes for very uninteresting modding options. Which is a real shame since also other mods do jack S#&$ for him. 

3) proud of being a monster. Or are you? Seem to recall albion wasn't populated by monkeys 😄

4) depends, tbh i saw that more as aggro manipulation and defence, not really as an offensive method. Or a creative, player input based DR source. 

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Wtf

My reaction exactly.

2 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

Or are you? 

We can both be monsters. 

3 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

depends, tbh i saw that more as aggro manipulation and defence, not really as an offensive method. Or a creative, player input based DR source. 

My concern here is that I don't really want to remove aggro from me, you know? Especially if Defy becomes a taunt.

He'll still have 2 channelled abilities and a reason to use his others, energy and subsequently Rage/Adrenaline will be absolutely necessary. 

[FoxFX]

 

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

 

Yes, I saw it. I'm even the first commentor 

[Redfeather75]

Do you folks think anyone working on the game wants to work on wukong.

[Nacond]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Redfeather75:

Do you folks think anyone working on the game wants to work on wukong.

Don't know what's so bad about him. I really like the ideas. Yeah he could need some love but the setting and style is really nice in my opinion 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

36 minutes ago, Redfeather75 said:

Do you folks think anyone working on the game wants to work on wukong.

Was this question posted with or without knowing that on the most recent Devstream they said for a fact they were working on a Wukong Deluxe skin along side his upcoming rework?

[Redfeather75]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Was this question posted with or without knowing that on the most recent Devstream they said for a fact they were working on a Wukong Deluxe skin along side his upcoming rework?

I watched the dev stream. Guess I am remembering wrong. I remember wukong deluxe skin announcement... and then a less than enthusiastic i guess a rework has to be released. You can do it then... attitude.

So, I got the impression nobody there wanted to... and it made me wonder and ask " Do you folks think anyone working on the game wants to work on wukong. "

Edited December 10, 2018 by Redfeather75

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

Do you folks think anyone working on the game wants to work on wukong.

No. Pablo I know has explicitly stated he doesn't want to, or words to that effect at least.

[TreeLover69]

Overall I like the ideas, I only really have one different idea that I think would positively add to what you've suggested which would be a change to his 1 to make it more interactive because I think it just needs some more versatility in the type of CC, id change it as such:

Iron-Jab: Add additional effects based on use. Eg. Use while aiming performs the current jab w/knockdown. Use with hip fire performs a ground slam/slap that staggers enemies within a radius. Use while crouched performs a frontal cone (or full aoe) leg sweep knockdown. Scales with: Range, Efficiency, Power. Any enemies that die from one of these gets rag dolled.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, TreeLover69 said:

Overall I like the ideas, I only really have one different idea that I think would positively add to what you've suggested which would be a change to his 1 to make it more interactive because I think it just needs some more versatility in the type of CC, id change it as such:

Iron-Jab: Add additional effects based on use. Eg. Use while aiming performs the current jab w/knockdown. Use with hip fire performs a ground slam/slap that staggers enemies within a radius. Use while crouched performs a frontal cone (or full aoe) leg sweep knockdown. Scales with: Range, Efficiency, Power. Any enemies that die from one of these gets rag dolled.

Would this change still allow it to be used to leap between enemies like Garuda?

Because if yes, thumbs up from me!

[TreeLover69]

15 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Would this change still allow it to be used to leap between enemies like Garuda?

I don't think he needs it to be honest and IMO the lore behind sun wukong doesn't really fit that kind of kit. If his Primal Fury had much better range, as it should given the properties of Ruyi Jingu Bang (the staff), he wouldn't need something that pulls him in to an enemy because he'd be able to whack them from a reasonable range away (maybe 15+ yards?). Combine that with the CC you'd get from my proposed iron jab changes and I think you get a more well rounded monkey that still fits in with the lore of Sun Wukong.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, TreeLover69 said:

I don't think he needs it to be honest and IMO the lore behind sun wukong doesn't really fit that kind of kit.

We'll have to agree to disagree on him needing it, as I believe that's a matter of preference. For me I absolutely consider it a necessity for a proper melee frame to have the ability to move around quickly.

As for thematically fitting though, it totally fits. He was able to somersault half way around the world, he can surely leap 50m to a nearby enemy, you know? Recent adaptions of the stories have him outright flying around during combat.

[TreeLover69]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on him needing it, as I believe that's a matter of preference. For me I absolutely consider it a necessity for a proper melee frame to have the ability to move around quickly.

As for thematically fitting though, it totally fits. He was able to somersault half way around the world, he can surely leap 50m to a nearby enemy, you know? Recent adaptions of the stories have him outright flying around during combat.

Yea I agree with you that its a matter of preferece. IMO the base movement tools that we have in warframe are sufficient to quickly get around, and with a much larger range on his Primal Fury you wont have to face to face with enemies. That kind of jumping to enemy movement has always personally bugged me for three reasons - Targetting a single target in what is predominantly a horde shooter. Regauging/orienting yourself to your surroundings after (warframes viewport isn't particularly good for that). With abilities like garuda you can just as easily bullet jump to cover that distance.

Thematically warframes with enemy rush abilities are assassins (Garuda/Ash). A better comparison of a fighter/brawler is Valkyr who kitwise is pretty close to wukong but uses a pull because her melee range is crap, but has high damage an immortality to balance that poor range. Plus, movement like somersaulting half way across the world or flying around already ties into what a warframe innately does with bullet jumping and aim gliding. If warframes base movement was less than what it is, I'd agree. However, i'd much rather see additional range on his Primal Fury (with particle effects on his staff extending to match) to a pulling ability. It'd also make him more unique to what other existing frame kits are out there.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

With abilities like garuda you can just as easily bullet jump to cover that distance.

I massively massively disagree with that assertion, not subjectively at this point. Garuda's leap is objectively in a completely separate league compared to bullet jumping. You move far faster and far further than bullet jumping allows.

6 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

However, i'd much rather see additional range on his Primal Fury (with particle effects on his staff extending to match) to a pulling ability.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm arguing against more range?

My OP explicitly states that the range needs to be far longer than it currently is, whilst also adding in the pull function to one of it's combos and the Leap to his first ability.

Doesn't have to be one or the other, we could have all of the above and people use whatever they want.