Conglomerated Wukong rework

[TreeLover69]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

I massively massively disagree with that assertion, not subjectively at this point. Garuda's leap is objectively in a completely separate league compared to bullet jumping. You move far faster and far further than bullet jumping allows.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm arguing against more range?

My OP explicitly states that the range needs to be far longer than it currently is, whilst also adding in the pull function to one of it's combos and the Leap to his first ability.

Doesn't have to be one or the other, we could have all of the above and people use whatever they want. 

You're not wrong about Garuda's leap being faster, but bullet jump at 1.0 movement covers ~15m distance so you can objectively get there in two bullet jumps. IMO 2-3 bullet jumps to cover that distance isn't unreasonable (which is where there is subjectivity of whether having that type of ability is necessary), especially when considering that Wukong's kit already has a set and forget immortality.

No, not saying that you're against more range, but I disagree that Wukong can have both range and mobility. The underlying principal to limit power creep is that you need some trade off for respective strengths. If you have range, you don't need mobility and vice versa. If you have both range and high mobility it becomes a power creep issue where Wukong would have too much (provided he was strong enough to kill things lategame). So let's say he has both mobility and good range and still has tankiness/immortality, then the only way to balance him is to make energy costs either excessively high (specifically to hit ability spam and his immortality/primal fury) or you keep ability power low (this usually results in late game stagnation due to poor scaling). So if we had to pick a particular area to buff Wukong I'd take range & power and skip the mobility portion because poor ability scaling feels bad. If Wukong doesn't get addressed with a balanced approach for range and mobility then you make a frame like Valkyr irrelevant (who has pretty close to everything Wukong does only less range).

Edited December 11, 2018 by TreeLover69
grammar

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

You're not wrong about Garuda's leap being faster, but bullet jump at 1.0 movement covers ~15m distance so you can objectively get there in two bullet jumps

My Garuda build has over 50m range on her #1 and #2. That's a lot more than 2 bullet jumps.

6 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

No, not saying that you're against more range, but I disagree that Wukong can have both range and mobility.

I don't see why not, to be honest.

For starters, even if the weapon were longer it's still limited not just by walls, but by the angle of the swing. Meaning it's going to be incredibly imprecise at range on top of everything else. I've experienced this first hand when it was bugged, you regularly miss enemies you thought you were swinging for.

This wouldn't be power creep either, as none of this would cause him to be more powerful than say Saryn or Equinox, who each have massive range (because AoE and guns) and more mobility due to faster speeds. Saryn even gets a speed buff on casting Molt IIRC.

12 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

So if we had to pick a particular area to buff Wukong I'd take range & power and skip the mobility portion because poor ability scaling feels bad

We definitely disagree then. The overwhelming majority of frames in this game are range/power and it's boring at this point, if it comes down to such a decision I'd hope DE go for the mobility option just for the sake of doing something different.

[TreeLover69]

27 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

My Garuda build has over 50m range on her #1 and #2. That's a lot more than 2 bullet jumps.

That's why I said 2-3, doesn't change that its subjective as to whether or not Wukong needs that kind of gap closer given the rest of his kit..

29 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

For starters, even if the weapon were longer it's still limited not just by walls, but by the angle of the swing. Meaning it's going to be incredibly imprecise at range on top of everything else. I've experienced this first hand when it was bugged, you regularly miss enemies you thought you were swinging for.

Entirely depends on how they code the weapon to work. If the animations line up with where the weapon hits then it'll be fine. It also would have the benefit of cleaving but with melee 3.0 that could change so I don't want to speculate on how it would be implemented. Not trying to be an ass about this but comparing a bug to an intentional implementation of a mechanic doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

This wouldn't be power creep either, as none of this would cause him to be more powerful than say Saryn or Equinox, who each have massive range (because AoE and guns) and more mobility due to faster speeds. Saryn even gets a speed buff on casting Molt IIRC.

Yes it would, the hitch for those frames is that their survivability is a lot worse because they don't have abilities that put them at Oberon or Valkyr levels of sustain. Every frame has a weakness and a niche, and giving Wukong range, strength, godmode and  mobility in his kit doesn't present an obvious niche.

To get at this issue a bit closer I think it'd be more productive to talk about what the design philosophy should be outside of the Sun Wukong lore. What do you think his niche should be and what do you think his weakness be? How should he compliment a team composition?

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

We definitely disagree then. The overwhelming majority of frames in this game are range/power and it's boring at this point, if it comes down to such a decision I'd hope DE go for the mobility option just for the sake of doing something different.

That's not an accurate picture assuming we're talking about how you choose to build frames and what frames do. AOE frames just see a lot more play because they can be used to cheese farm. To summarize the ones I'm familiar with: 

The following don't have productive range builds: Atlas, Ash, Chroma, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Inaros, Khora, Loki, Mirage, Nekros, Titania, Zephyr, Vauban, Valkyr. Thats 16/37 close to half of the current frames.

The following have range builds with other builds also being viable: Gara, Nezha, Garuda, Octavia, Nidus, Limbo, Frost, Rhino, Oberon, 7/37.

The following are AOE frames that thrive on killing with ranged abilities or are just baked in as ranged: Equinox, Banshee, Ember, Saryn, Mag, Nova, Mesa, Nyx. 7/37.

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

That's why I said 2-3

50+ metres on Garuda would be 4 bullet jumps, and would be rather imprecise at that.

13 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

Not trying to be an ass about this but comparing a bug to an intentional implementation of a mechanic doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The bug was literally just +range, nothing else.

I'm just trying to say that making the staff e.g. 20 metres long doesn't mean you're actually going to be reliably hitting enemies 20m away.

16 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

Yes it would, the hitch for those frames is that their survivability is a lot worse because they don't have abilities that put them at Oberon or Valkyr levels of sustain. Every frame has a weakness and a niche, and giving Wukong range, strength, godmode and  mobility in his kit doesn't present an obvious niche.

 To get at this issue a bit closer I think it'd be more productive to talk about what the design philosophy should be outside of the Sun Wukong lore. What do you think his niche should be and what do you think his weakness be? How should he compliment a team composition?

Their survivability is absolutely fine.

One of my key arguments is that Defy is pretty much useless because modding provides enough survivability for the content in the game that's relevant. Saryn is tankier than Wukong, properly modded, and if Wukong can survive easily then she can even more so.

So Saryn has strength, range, mobility and more than enough tankiness to tackle the games content. Where's her niche?

20 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

The following don't have productive range builds: Atlas, Ash, Chroma, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Inaros, Khora, Loki, Mirage, Nekros, Titania, Zephyr, Vauban, Valkyr. Thats 16/37 close to half of the current frames.

Not only does this come off overly pedantic, it's also... completely strange.

Loki doesn't have a productive range build? On what planet?

Vauban isn't productive with a range build either?

I'd say that even Atlas is pretty effective with a Range build.

Regardless, that wasn't my point. We have so many frames that are able to kill things from range (power/range) that it's boring, re-read your post, you aren't referring to the range ability stat, but the effective range that the frame can engage in combat in. Chroma for example is still power/range simply because gunplay. You buff your guns and shrug off bullets.

What you're proposing is the same, that Wukong should be power/range and power/range only by allowing him to swing his stick from far away.

And I really don't want that if it's going to detract from everything else, because I consider that boring when we have so many other frames that are designed for ranged play and it would have arguable effectiveness. 

So yeah, like I said, I want his staff to get a reach buff, and I really don't agree at all that it would be power creep in the slightest, nor too powerful overall. But if it comes to it, I'd rather have the mobility and a unique frame rather than yet another "I just kill things from range" frame.

[TreeLover69]

5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

50+ metres on Garuda would be 4 bullet jumps, and would be rather imprecise at that.

3 x 15m = 45 m, the range from the weapon would make up the remaining distance.

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm just trying to say that making the staff e.g. 20 metres long doesn't mean you're actually going to be reliably hitting enemies 20m away.

This assumes that the implementation of the weapon & range is bad though, that's where I take issue with it. We'd be assuming that the implementation of the weapon would be awkward to the point of not reliably hitting enemies at range. Spear and polearm range boosts work, it just feels weird because the animation for the weapon doesn't accurately reflect the increase in range. This clip is more specifically what I think we both mean by increasing range, what we're going back and forth on seems to be whether or not DE can code the hitboxes to work properly.

 

26 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Their survivability is absolutely fine.

One of my key arguments is that Defy is pretty much useless because modding provides enough survivability for the content in the game that's relevant. Saryn is tankier than Wukong, properly modded, and if Wukong can survive easily then she can even more so.

So Saryn has strength, range, mobility and more than enough tankiness to tackle the games content. Where's her niche?

The point is trading out defensive mods for offensive ones. I don't need to kit valkyr/atlas/excal/loki/octavia etc... for health and armour because they have enough survivability in their ability loadout that synergizes with an output build. The best gauge of a frames tankiness is its base stats and abilities. So take mods out of the equation for the time being because they fall into the same category as saying any frame can be ranged/aoe because guns.

Wukong and Saryn have the same base stats with inverse shield and health values. Wukong as an immortality, Saryn does not. Saryn is not Tankier than Wukong.

In terms of Saryn's niche,its a caster with ramping AOE damage. She doesn't kill single targets effectively or quickly. She doesn't have abilities that are intended for extended face to face fighting (in melee, her 3 is specifically designed to spread spores).

Wukong's niche isn't well defined, he kind of fits into a generalist frame doing nothing particularly well. IMO he could be well suited as combat oriented, ranged-melee trickster. Where he has: Ranged staff (Primal Fury), small radius AOE CC (iron jab), tanky (defy), and in-vulnerability (mist/defy?). So I don't think excessive movement (aka a gapcloser akin to Garuda) is necessary to fit that model.

11 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Not only does this come off overly pedantic, it's also... completely strange.

It was pedantic to counter a overly broad/generalized statement that came with an assertion that "The overwhelming majority of frames in this game are range/power and it's boring at this point", which isn't true because there are plenty of non power/range builds that are viable for over half frames (which is also true for all the frames you've corrected me on).

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

What you're proposing is the same, that Wukong should be power/range and power/range only by allowing him to swing his stick from far away.

The modifications to your ideas I'm proposing isn't to change Wukong to just a range power frame. All i've been saying is that I don't think he needs a gap-closer baked into Iron Jab if he's going to get a significant range on his Primal Fury. To be honest, to make it simpler coding wise I don't think primal fury should scale with range at all and that only the mist disorient and iron jab aoe should scale with range.

Just to recap what I'd like to see come out of his rework:

Ironjab - Have different interactions with depending on some modifier. Aiming/crouching/jumping just seemed easiest to control and then CC with a slam, legsweep, jab. Scale with range/power/efficiency.

Defy - I honestly don't care too much, assuming they fix the immunity i'd be happy with it rather than an Oberon clone but I'd be happy with either. Scale with power/efficiency/duration.

Mist - I think it just needs a QoL change with a sizable speed increase but other effects baked into would be neat too. Scale with range/efficiency/duration.

Primal Fury - Something akin to the Chinese version, same kind of thing I believe you want with it too just fix the range to however many meters so it's reasonable to program and implement. Scale with power/efficiency/duration.

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

So yeah, like I said, I want his staff to get a reach buff, and I really don't agree at all that it would be power creep in the slightest, nor too powerful overall. But if it comes to it, I'd rather have the mobility and a unique frame rather than yet another "I just kill things from range" frame.

I mean, as far as frame kits go, the only ranged melee is excal and it's more of a gunbeam sword than melee. There are more frames with melee gap closer mobility (atlas, valkyr, ash, rhino, hydroid, garuda) than frames with a channeled ability that grant range with a unique flavor (excal, titania). There's more uniqueness in focusing on that kind of ability. If there are other frames that have that channeled ability that provide range and are better than gun/melee play please correct me.

The other issue with a gap closer is that if Wukong gets range on his primal fury you lose the synergy between abilities. Ash's closer is for finishers, valkyrs is to get her into range to mongo bongo or pull a high priority target to get savaged with short range. So then why would I close a 20m gap when I can just slap you with a staff with 20m of reach?

[DeMonkey]

44 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

3 x 15m = 45 m, the range from the weapon would make up the remaining distance.

You think.

1 bullet jump still takes a good 2 seconds, 3 bullet jumps is therefore 6 seconds.

I'm glad you think 6 seconds is fine for getting around and smacking enemies, but after playing Garuda and having more fun in Warframe than I have in years, I strongly disagree. 6 seconds is not a comfortable duration in comparison.

44 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

This assumes that the implementation of the weapon & range is bad though, that's where I take issue with it. We'd be assuming that the implementation of the weapon would be awkward to the point of not reliably hitting enemies at range. Spear and polearm range boosts work, it just feels weird because the animation for the weapon doesn't accurately reflect the increase in range. This clip is more specifically what I think we both mean by increasing range, what we're going back and forth on seems to be whether or not DE can code the hitboxes to work properly.

I really feel like I'm making myself clear, but I guess not.

It would not be reliable due to the angles of attack. Unless the attack is a horizontal slice, it will be unreliable at range. Rewatch the gif, the attack that kills the enemies is a horizontal attack, the attacks performed before it do absolutely nothing.

The only way for it to be effective is if every attack is a horizontal sweep... and do you really want that?

44 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

Wukong and Saryn have the same base stats with inverse shield and health values. Wukong as an immortality, Saryn does not. Saryn is not Tankier than Wukong.

This is another point where I feel like I'm being really clear with what I'm saying. Frankly I don't know how to be clearer.

Using Umbral mods and building defensively allows Wukong to survive all of this games relevant content without needing Defy. Immortality itself is basically useless in this game, because modding and Arcanes do a good enough job on their own.

If Wukong can survive with that sort of build, then Saryn also can given that she has better stats. Building an Umbral build isn't even detrimental to such a frame, as you get a large power boost out of using the mods and can benefit easier from Rage/Adrenaline to help with ability spam. Therefore the fact that Saryn's survivability when taking into account abilities is worse than Wukongs is pretty much irrelevant, because when compared to the survivability required to play the game, she surpasses it.

44 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

It was pedantic to counter a overly broad/generalized statement that came with an assertion that "The overwhelming majority of frames in this game are range/power and it's boring at this point", which isn't true because there are plenty of non power/range builds that are viable for over half frames (which is also true for all the frames you've corrected me on).

I don't have a clue what you're saying here. I don't know how you're confusing what I'm saying.

The overwhelming majority of frames in this game are designed around being powerful from range. I don't know what's confusing about that? I even explicitly stated that we weren't discussing power/range builds and yet you're still talking about them.

44 minutes ago, TreeLover69 said:

There's more uniqueness in focusing on that kind of ability.

By encouraging standing in one place spamming E all day, instead of also providing a means of leaping around the map? 

We've just gone through a period of people chilling in one spot spamming E before it got nerfed, last thing I want is for that to be the main way of playing Wukong as well...

I'd quote more but I'm done. No matter what I seem to say it's obviously difficult to follow, I've had a long day and we're just repeating ourselves. I get the message, you disagree with my idea for a gap closer, I disagree with... basically everything you've said, but can't seem to adequately explain why so I'm just going to leave it.

On a side note, seems completely contradictory to just want Cloudwalker to be faster. Here you are saying that a leap like Garuda's isn't very useful because bullet jumping does fine... but you want a speed increase for Cloudwalker? If bullet jumping gets you around fast enough to not want a gap closer then you won't use Cloudwalker either, meaning the ability remains utterly useless. 

I'm afraid that I currently perceive your posts to be rather contrarian right now, and I'm thinking that the problems following my posts are less a fault on my part, and perhaps more intentional on yours.

Edited December 11, 2018 by DeMonkey

[(PSN)Hallowed_Shrine]

Seriously disappointing; Wukong, not at all what i needed...

[Redfeather75]

I love when topics become two people mining each other's posts for quotes to attack. It means the topic is about to get locked!

[TreeLover69]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

You think.

1 bullet jump still takes a good 2 seconds, 3 bullet jumps is therefore 6 seconds.

A bullet jump takes 1 second, heres a link to a video so you can look for yourself if you don't believe me: 

 

So its 3 seconds absolute tops, and that 3rd bullet jump isn't needed if there's a 20 m range on primal fury (15+15+20=50, assuming primal fury is 20 m base with no option to mod for range). The only time you need that kind of closer is on open maps such as Plants or Orb Vallis. It's nowhere near as bad as you're trying to make it out to be. It's okay to say that you feel like a melee frame needs it, I disagree and that's fine - it's why I said it's subjective. But please don't throw up numbers that are wrong to try and prove a point.

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I really feel like I'm making myself clear, but I guess not.

It would not be reliable due to the angles of attack. Unless the attack is a horizontal slice, it will be unreliable at range. Rewatch the gif, the attack that kills the enemies is a horizontal attack, the attacks performed before it do absolutely nothing.

You are clear, but you're not listening to the other side of the story. There are steps in game design that can be taken to make sure that angles of attack don't limit the ability or make it awkward. The hitbox on a weapon =/= the animation, polearms and staffs with primed reach are examples of that. DE design the hitbox around the aiming reticle to sufficiently to feel like the animation is acturately hitting what you're aiming at.

27 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Using Umbral mods and building defensively allows Wukong to survive all of this games relevant content without needing Defy. Immortality itself is basically useless in this game, because modding and Arcanes do a good enough job on their own.

If Wukong can survive with that sort of build, then Saryn also can given that she has better stats. Building an Umbral build isn't even detrimental to such a frame, as you get a large power boost out of using the mods and can benefit easier from Rage/Adrenaline to help with ability spam. Therefore the fact that Saryn's survivability when taking into account abilities is worse than Wukongs is pretty much irrelevant, because when compared to the survivability required to play the game, she surpasses it.

Without mods, Wukong's base defensive stats are identical Saryn's (not the prime variant) - has the same armor, same total of shield+health. Without mods, Wukong is objectively tankier than Saryn because Wukong has 2 specific invulnerability abilities. If you mod both the same, Wukong will still be able to survive for longer than Saryn when getting shot because of those abilities so you're able to mod him less offensively.

The whole point of this comparison was to show that no frame can be strong in every aspect of the game, otherwise you get power creep. Saryn does not have the ability to survive the playstyle that Wukong can, she cant clear low level content as efficiently as equinox can - so she has a niche. In Wukong's re-work, he needs to have some form of compromise, which is all this comparison was meant to show.

52 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I don't have a clue what you're saying here. I don't know how you're confusing what I'm saying.

The overwhelming majority of frames in this game are designed around being powerful from range. I don't know what's confusing about that? I even explicitly stated that we weren't discussing power/range builds and yet you're still talking about them.

It's a discussion point because you used it to try and invalidate my opinion that Wukong doesn't need a gap closer if he gets significant range on Primal Fury. So you claimed that not having the gap closer mobility would make him a power/range frame and that the "overwhelming majority" are designed around being powerful from range, so i laid out the roster to show that's not true with plenty of frames that are based around different playstyles. Then you jumped to saying that because frames are able to use guns they are powerful at range (ie chroma), which again applies to any warframe because they all use guns. So I laid out what the kit would have to point out that it's not focused on being ranged/power, and that you have diversity. You then proceeded to ignore it to pull the discussion full circle with using "the overwhelming majority are designed around being powerful from range" to try and invalidate my opinion that Wukong doesn't need a gap closer.

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

By encouraging standing in one place spamming E all day, instead of also providing a means of leaping around the map? 

We've just gone through a period of people chilling in one spot spamming E before it got nerfed, last thing I want is for that to be the main way of playing Wukong as well...

The change to wall clipping stops that, Wukong wouldnt be an exception. You'd still be beholden to the current melee combat rules, and unless you were sitting still waiting for something to show up within your LoS your going to move and be more active. You're also going to need to keep feeding yourself energy to maintain the channel that so you wouldn't be able to stand still on that front either.

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

I'd quote more but I'm done. No matter what I seem to say it's obviously difficult to follow, I've had a long day and we're just repeating ourselves. I get the message, you disagree with my idea for a gap closer, I disagree with... basically everything you've said, but can't seem to adequately explain why so I'm just going to leave it.

You're no more right about the topic than I am, the direction DE should go with the rework is entirely subjective. All I'm trying to do is gauge why a gap closer is needed and provide some discussion as to what the pros and cons are so that they can use the opinions that we make available to inform their design. The best way I know how to do that is to present the reasons why it isn't needed, especially if the rest of his kit were to stay the way you originally proposed. From what i've picked up from the discussion so far is - Garuda has one, i like it, Wukong should have it too - which is valid, you find it fun. But then I ask myself then why not just play Garuda if she's already got that ability?

My main concern is that Wukong stays relevant for as long as possible without becoming a stale version of another frame, while also maintaining the monkey king feel. So to me it's important to target the specific types of abilities that Wukong really needs to feel like Son Wukong and is still fun to play. Son Wukong's staff is iconic and that needs to be represented in his gameplay in a big way, which is why I'd advocate for a stronger focus on the staff's utility and what diverse gameplay options can come from it. There may be a better option than the version in China, but to me that looks really enjoyable to play and looks like it can feel really impactful.

The last note I've got on this, is that I see the point of a rework or new frame as being an opportunity to introduce new mechanics to the game, and a gap closer baked into Jab doesn't do that but something like a super extended staff or an animal transformation does. Having options on how to interact with Iron Jab such as it doing a legsweep, a slam, or the current jab depending on whether your crouched, jumping etc... also does introduces a new mechanic. If i wanted a gap closer on an Iron Jab like ability I can play Garuda, Atlas, Ash, Rhino etc... personally I'd prefer to see DE spend the time on something new.

[DeMonkey]

6 hours ago, TreeLover69 said:

But please don't throw up numbers that are wrong to try and prove a point.

Like you've done?

6 hours ago, TreeLover69 said:

that 3rd bullet jump isn't needed if there's a 20 m range on primal fury (15+15+20=50, assuming primal fury is 20 m base with no option to mod for range).

^

How many times have I explicitly stated that my Garuda build goes further than 50 m? That only reaches 50m. Gg.

Bullet jumping is not an easy replacement for a proper gap closer, st all, and I don't know why you're trying to argue otherwise.

6 hours ago, TreeLover69 said:

You are clear, but you're not listening to the other side of the story.

I am listening to the other side of the story, but I think it's naive and I disagree with it.

It's you that isn't listening, as you're making me repeat myself ad nauseum.

6 hours ago, TreeLover69 said:

Without mods, Wukong's base defensive stats are identical Saryn's (not the prime variant) - has the same armor, same total of shield+health. Without mods, Wukong is objectively tankier than Saryn because Wukong has 2 specific invulnerability abilities. If you mod both the same, Wukong will still be able to survive for longer than Saryn when getting shot because of those abilities so you're able to mod him less offensively.

The whole point of this comparison was to show that no frame can be strong in every aspect of the game, otherwise you get power creep. Saryn does not have the ability to survive the playstyle that Wukong can, she cant clear low level content as efficiently as equinox can - so she has a niche. In Wukong's re-work, he needs to have some form of compromise, which is all this comparison was meant to show.

You're actually making me annoyed with this.

How many times must I reiterate that Wukong's "playstyle" doesn't actually exist. There is no call for immortality, there is no content where it's necessary, there is nowhere where a well modded Saryn cannot also survive and do well.

And no, Saryn's base defensive stats are better. Don't try and throw up numbers that are wrong to prove a point.

6 hours ago, TreeLover69 said:

unless you were sitting still waiting for something to show up within your LoS your going to move and be more active.

Sounds like he needs a gap closer then.

6 hours ago, TreeLover69 said:

Son Wukong's staff is iconic and that needs to be represented in his gameplay in a big way, which is why I'd advocate for a stronger focus on the staff's utility and what diverse gameplay options can come from it.

You mean like, having him launch himself at the target and stab them with it? That would be a pretty unique gameplay aspect.

I'm convinced you're just being contrarion now and I honestly don't care if I missed anything. The number of times you've misconstrued or ignored what I've said, I fully expect you to do the same here.

Edited December 12, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Widowmaker1189]

On 2018-11-29 at 8:33 PM, DeMonkey said:

Wukong has to be next, because unlike Titania and Nyx he does not have a single useful ability. In fact, his passive is the single most useful part of his kit right now, and it kills me to say that given how unnoticeable it can be

Yes, yes, yes. Please I hope DE is reading this, as a fellow wukong main, I 100% agree with these changes. He needs to be next in line, i feel hes been neglected way too much. His 3rd ability should have a changeable form like you mentioned, I would like to see his infamous clones make an appearance but you cant have it all 😛

Edited January 2, 2019 by Widowmaker1189

[MonkeyKV]

On 2018-11-30 at 2:33 PM, DeMonkey said:

Oh look, Monkey has made another Wukong thread in a naive attempt to get him fixed, I shall now accept all of your eye rolls, please be gentle.

So, first things first, I will be linking to previous threads and taking most of my ideas from there. I will be adding plenty of other stuff as well, so this isn't just to advertise my previous threads. I'm trying this again now that we have the Dev Workshop on Nyx and Titania and can only assume that they are close to completion.

Wukong has to be next, because unlike Titania and Nyx he does not have a single useful ability. In fact, his passive is the single most useful part of his kit right now, and it kills me to say that given how unnoticeable it can be. When I can reliably solo 20 minutes of Mot without ever thinking to myself "Hey, if I'd used 'x' that fight would have gone a bit better" then there's a huge problem.

On to the nitty gritty though.

His stats:

Wukong's base stats are.. befuddling, and the complete opposite of what you'd expect from a melee frame.

His current base values (ignoring energy) are,

Shields: 125 (375 at max)
Health: 100 (300 at max)
Armour: 225
Sprint Speed: 0.95

The stats tell us this is a slow shield biased frame, which is the complete opposite of what his gameplay encourages. You want to be moving as much as possible to melee everything in sight, whilst using your armour/health/abilities to tank damage. Shields are not at all useful for Wukong, unlike say for Mag or a frame that has a DR ability.

A more fitting set of stats imo would be,

Shields: 75 (225 at max)
Health: 125 (375 at max)
Armour: 400
Sprint Speed: 1/1.1

This is much more befitting of a frame designed around charging at and clubbing enemies with a stick.

Passive:

Increase the combo increase to 7 seconds giving Wukong a total of 10 seconds. 2 is barely noticeable, especially when 5 seconds is still short enough to drop in combo, meaning I end up using a combo mod anyway.

To elaborate on why, I find that even with 5 seconds and Naramon focus I'm still losing a fair amount of combo over time, 5 seconds without hitting an enemy is fairly common. I end up using Drifting Contact just to ensure that the combo never drops and I have as much damage as possible for when the enemies get spongier. Plus I like the higher numbers.

Iron Jab:

I made this thread some time ago, outlining the differences between Iron Jab and Whipclaw as they were both fairly similar in how they worked. Note that this is before all the Whipclaw buffs that have made it far and away better.

Thankfully the introduction of Garuda has given us the perfect framework to rework Iron Jab, a leap that hardlocks onto enemies. 

I propose that the ability causes you to leap to the enemy, staff outstretched and "jab" them. I'd then like to see something similar to a reverse "Soul Punch". Instead of punching the soul out of an enemy, you Jab the body away and leave an imprint behind that can be destroyed and thus kill the enemy.

As with Soul Punch the flying body should do damage as it flies, and explode when it hits a wall (although a lot more damage than Soul Punch). The imprint left behind would be armourless/shieldless and provide Wukong with 25 energy if he kills it.

If the imprint left behind isn't killed within 5 seconds then it follows the course the body took and the enemy simply gets back up.

Mechanically, I'd suggest having the flying body be made into an object and have the imprint remain as the living enemy, effectively meaning the enemy doesn't actually move at all until the timer is up. That way it would still work with things like the "Mecha" set, as the imprint would remain the target rather than creating a whole new entity and punting away the Mecha target... I think...

Defy:

My Defy 2.0 thread.

I can't really add much more to it, but I don't want to just copy paste it here and create an even larger wall of text so I'll try to concisely lay out what I hope to accomplish and why.

Defy is bad, it's a really bad ability. It isn't necessary for so so much content in this game, and it has literally no other use than making you immortal. My proposition involves still making him tanky, and hell, still allows him to escape death, but on a cooldown. The death defying is now it's secondary factor, the primary focus of the ability is to provide constant health regeneration and aggro. The aggro being the main thing that I want, as that would actually give Wukong a reason to use Defy in lower levels to protect objectives or weaker teammates. I'm not so concerned with the DR and other buffs I mentioned in the thread, I could take them or leave them.

Potential drop in the energy cost as well, 5eps is a bit high for what I'm proposing.

Cloudwalker replacement:

I made, surprise, a thread sometime ago detailing changes to the the ability, but I've altered my thoughts enough to not be too bothered about linking it.

What I'd like to see is something that replaces it completely, but retains all the functionality it provided. To that end I suggest 3 separate transformations that Wukong can use like Ivara's or Vaubans's Quiver/Mines.

Transformation #1 (25 energy):

This would remain a cloud in free flight, but sped up to at least bullet jumping speed. Enemies that you pass through are temporarily blinded, but not open to finishers.

Transformation #2 (50 energy):

Wukong becomes beastial and charges on all fours, growing a giant maw in the process and performing a finisher attack on his target (think Sahasa Kubrow finisher). Similar hard lock mechanic to the new Iron Jab, but different purpose, same way Garuda has 2 hard lock dashes with different purposes.

Wukong gains DR if the enemy is killed by the attack, and nearby enemies are terrified for a short duration.

Could be a strong ability, but is intended to be best used after already weakening the enemy to ensure the finisher kills it. Obviously at lower levels this will just kill everything except a Nox without much trouble.

Transformation #3 (50 energy):

Wukong somersaults into a controllable Grineer roller that speeds forward. Fully steerable, and drags enemies along with it similarly to Tidal Surge allowing Wukong to group enemies up for himself or allies.

Allows for potential synergy, perhaps by driving enemies into ally AoE's or even depositing them somewhere for Gara to use as a health buffer for her Mass Vitrify.

Primal fury:

This is probably the most important change to me, because this is the sole reason I use Wukong. His staff, I love it to death.

Unfortunately however it's not a good weapon, at all. Heavy Blades, Whips, Polearms etc will all deal comparable amounts of damage whilst having at least double the range (face it, you're not going to not use Primed Reach if you have it). Going from Primal Fury to my Heavy Blade Zaw is... eye opening, the difference between the two weapons is night and day.

To that end, I made this thread with the goal to remove the downsides to the combos, whilst giving them a ton of positives. It goes without saying that the range of the staff should also be increased. 4m max length is simply ridiculous.

TL;DR

I realise there's probably a fair bit of writing, so feel free to only comment on bits that really speak out to you. I understand the Defy change will likely be a focus to many and that's absolutely fine, everything should be laid out properly so that you can find whatever bit you want quickly.

The long and the short of it is that none of Wukong's abilities have a use in the game. I will perform better using an abilityless Umbral build and wielding a Zaw than I will using a Defy/Primal Fury build.

Every single proposed change is made with both source material and fun in mind. I don't really care whether Wukong will still be sub-par after the above changes (and I highly doubt he'd be OP), but he'd be a hell of a lot more fun to play and that's my only focus.

Goes without saying that this is largely all my opinion.

Again, apologies for the length.

Was thinking of a couple ideas for a Wukong rework, went online to post it and saw this post. Actually like some of your ideas better and would instead rather expand on the discussion here and put my twist on some of your ideas. Wukong is by far thematically one of my favorite characters ever, and i play him on every other game available religiously, EXCEPT Warframe (worst and most boring representation of him ever). Lets get on to the ideas:

Stats: You're spot on. I'd say maybe keep health at 100, sprint speed 1.2, but all else id keep like yours.

Passive: I absolutely HATE the combo counter timer, i think 5-7s should be STANDARD for every frame, being moddable for more. My idea for his passive would be 2%DR for every enemy within a radius of him to a cap of 40% at 20 enemies, so the more enemies you're facing the tankier you are. Less enemies, you rely a bit more on mobility/defy for survivability since its less gunshots to dodge anwyays. Second part: after not attacking for X seconds, you hop on your cloud and gain %MS (1.2 sprint speed important), attacking makes you hop off the cloud and dissipates it. Would work as a MS buff while not attacking just for mobility and Flair, with a animation and visual change nothing else.

Iron jab: I love this idea and where you're going with it, but would like to throw a curveball on it. You leap (power range) at an enemy and jab it with your staff, removing %Armor (power str), if no enemy is targeted you simply leap on the direction being pointed (not castable in air). The idea is simple, armor removal for key targets, gap closing/mobility. Imagine leaping to the wall, latching to it, shooting for a couple seconds, pointing to another wall leaping there and latching again like a godamn agile monkey. Leaping to enemies for gap closing meleeing. No insane range on this, no insane ragdolls (terrible mechanic) just some fun mobility/gapclosing and single target armor sundering.

Augment: iron jab now has increased force, the hit sunders enemies armor in a small radius around the target hit.

Defy: This is the best idea i have heard in a long time, invincibility is boring and should be out of the game.  LOVE this idea, the aggro part would be his "teamplay contribution" making his team a bit safer. %DR (power str), and %HPR (power str) to be able to take the extra attention is perfect. I would make the HPR part only take effect after 3 seconds of not taking damage, to discourage simply standing still tanking and to combo with his 1 mobility and his new 3 below (sorry dont like yours, cloud is bad and polymorphing is too much imo). No triggers, no invulnerability/invincibility, no need to keep toggling on and off. 

Decoy: Wukong goes invisible for 8s(not moddable), leaving a clone behind that deals 50% of his dmg for X seconds (power duration). Attacking or interacting breaks invisibility (see Skiajati Nikana). This combos with his Defy that needs a breather to regen and would fit on his trickery and cloning lore. Clone only deals 50% dmg as its mostly a distraction while you regen invis.

Augment: Decoy now spawns 2 clones, each dealing 150% of his dmg

Primal Fury: I like all your ideas, my changes would be mostly personal preference really. I would like the range to be as a normal Stave weapon, moddable with range mods (with visual change), no increase in size as you hit enemies. I personally find it silly the huge stick and wouldn't like it being forced, which takes me to the aug idea:

Augment: Stays the same with the crit chance increase, but adds: 0.5m increase in the range of the staff for each kill, up to 5m. This way we get a 5m range increase on top of the 4-6m. Should keep the range on reasonable levels for DE and not enforce the ~11m range stick weapon on everyone, while also not tying the range to the crappy combo counter, and max range being quickly attainable with 10 kills.

This is it, those would be my ideas for him, would love to hear what you think on my twists. I think its got good synergy on the skills and passives, keeping him very true to the lore, while also hitting on most of his theme points. He would be tanky and agile, with trickery and powerful with his staff. Could be build with range for silly leaping, Duration for a Decoy augment build (like equinox duality), or Strength for %DR and HPR, but most of all a balanced build would make all his 4 skills usable and in good synergy, but specialized builds would make different playstyles viable. Most of the mechanics needed for the implementation of these skills are already in the game.

Sorry for any grammar errors, English is not my first language.

Let's hope we have an amazing Wukong in 2019, the Deluxe is already looking amazing

 

 

[DeMonkey]

5 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

Passive: I absolutely HATE the combo counter timer, i think 5-7s should be STANDARD for every frame, being moddable for more. My idea for his passive would be 2%DR for every enemy within a radius of him to a cap of 40% at 20 enemies, so the more enemies you're facing the tankier you are. Less enemies, you rely a bit more on mobility/defy for survivability since its less gunshots to dodge anwyays. Second part: after not attacking for X seconds, you hop on your cloud and gain %MS (1.2 sprint speed important), attacking makes you hop off the cloud and dissipates it. Would work as a MS buff while not attacking just for mobility and Flair, with a animation and visual change nothing else

I could live with that. It would certainly be more interesting, and more enjoyable than my own proposed buff. I was solely aiming to retain the melee focus with it that he currently has.

5 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

Iron jab: I love this idea and where you're going with it, but would like to throw a curveball on it. You leap (power range) at an enemy and jab it with your staff, removing %Armor (power str), if no enemy is targeted you simply leap on the direction being pointed (not castable in air). The idea is simple, armor removal for key targets, gap closing/mobility. Imagine leaping to the wall, latching to it, shooting for a couple seconds, pointing to another wall leaping there and latching again like a godamn agile monkey. Leaping to enemies for gap closing meleeing. No insane range on this, no insane ragdolls (terrible mechanic) just some fun mobility/gapclosing and single target armor sundering.

Whilst I certainly like the idea behind this, allowing him to leap around, may I ask why you're against having the enemy's body launched away whilst leaving behind an imprint to attack.

I included the no shield/armour bit for it, so it essentially still has Armour sunder, and it doesn't immediately launch the enemy itself flying, just their body. I personally like the idea of smacking someone so hard they fly into their allies, and wanted to include it in such a way that it doesn't detract from being able to hit the enemy further.

5 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

I would make the HPR part only take effect after 3 seconds of not taking damage,

I could see it working, however I fear 3 seconds may be considerably longer than I (and others) would like. In that time I could probably spam Elevate 6 or 7 times and just get the health anyway.

5 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

polymorphing is too much imo

Could you elaborate on this?

Model changes aren't uncommon in Warframe, in fact Cloudwalker itself is a perfect example of this. Wukong's model is made invisible, and a cloud is simply overlayed on top of him. Something similar would work for what I propose.

5 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

Decoy: Wukong goes invisible for 8s(not moddable), leaving a clone behind that deals 50% of his dmg for X seconds (power duration). Attacking or interacting breaks invisibility (see Skiajati Nikana). This combos with his Defy that needs a breather to regen and would fit on his trickery and cloning lore. Clone only deals 50% dmg as its mostly a distraction while you regen invis.

Augment: Decoy now spawns 2 clones, each dealing 150% of his dmg

As I've mentioned in other threads, I do have genuine concerns about having an ability that is solely focused around clones, primarily due to shoddy AI.

Granted you're proposing this to allow for some time to regen your health, but I have concerns about that. I feel that if the wait for health from Defy is too long, then people will simply opt for other sources, like the aforementioned Elevate as well as things like Life Strike, Healing Return or healer spectres. Why bother waiting whilst invisible if I could do 'x' and just keep attacking, you know?

5 hours ago, MonkeyKV said:

I personally find it silly the huge stick and wouldn't like it being forced

Could you elaborate on this as well? Thematically it should be the longest weapon in the game, as it was (at least in the version I read) used to measure Ocean depths. Obviously having a weapon that's larger than several Orb Vallis' put together wouldn't work for the game, but it certainly should be amongst the longest of weapons we have available, without the need for augmentation.

Is it just aesthetically you dislike it? If so, I can respect that, although it doesn't change my thoughts on the matter.

Edited January 3, 2019 by DeMonkey

[MonkeyKV]

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I ask why you're against having the enemy's body launched away whilst leaving behind an imprint to attack.

Not against it by any means i think it would be absolutely amazing visually, just thought it might be too much visually and effect wise for a 1 ability and i didnt know how it would work with the proposed aug i had. Everyones body in the radius gets ragdolled? Would be a sight to behold :D, i would love the free target leaping thought for the latching around fun

 

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I could see it working, however I fear 3 seconds may be considerably longer than I (and others) would like. In that time I could probably spam Elevate 6 or 7 times and just get the health anyway.

Just an arbitrary number i thought would be reasonable. I think just because there are other methods of healing in the game it shouldn't invalidate this one, quite on the contrary, it opens possibility to use a different arcane as your frame already provides healing. I thought it was important for the 3 synergy and to avoid stationary tankyness

 

39 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Could you elaborate on this?

Model changes aren't uncommon in Warframe, in fact Cloudwalker itself is a perfect example of this. Wukong's model is made invisible, and a cloud is simply overlayed on top of him. Something similar would work for what I propose.

Not against polymorphing per se, i find it thematically cool and your proposed changes seems fun. I just don't like the cloud model/gameplay we have at the moment, looks more like a mist and you don't actually get to ride on it (unlike my passive idea), and the other 2 transformations you suggested seems in my opinion although fun, alot of work/hassle to incorporate for what i think are not good rewards, single target finishers is meh, we have tons of frames that open to finisher and in a better way, and grouping up enemies for allies with a transformation seems to me a bit supporty for wukong, the only good/cool grouping up enemies ability i've seen so far is on Nidus. I enjoy polymorphing and would love to see it on the game, but i think it would be cool to have a Frame revolving around it completely, i just don't see the synergy with the rest of the kit on your ideas, and realistically seems like an amount of work not for a rework but for a new frame. 

 

54 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

As I've mentioned in other threads, I do have genuine concerns about having an ability that is solely focused around clones, primarily due to shoddy AI.

Granted you're proposing this to allow for some time to regen your health, but I have concerns about that. I feel that if the wait for health from Defy is too long, then people will simply opt for other sources, like the aforementioned Elevate as well as things like Life Strike, Healing Return or healer spectres. Why bother waiting whilst invisible if I could do 'x' and just keep attacking, you know?

I agree on the shoddy AI, but then again equinoxes duality build works well. My idea was not to focus solely on the clone for that same concern, but provide that clone gameplay with the augment instead. I think 8 seconds of stealth is quite useful on its own, the clone is a fun thematically and cool distraction, that becomes the focus of the skill with an augment only. From my experience when S#&$ hits the fan u cant lifestrike/ healing return to keep yourself alive, you actually have to get out of danger and the skill would help with that. Yes elevate would be able to do the same but then again its synergy with the other skills, thematically appropriate, opens up possibility for different arcanes, and best of all you would be doing wukong stuff instead of hopping in and out of a frame with Potatochild X times that feels like a horrible gameplay decision and looks silly.

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Is it just aesthetically you dislike it? If so, I can respect that, although it doesn't change my thoughts on the matter.

Yes it is just aesthetically i dislike. I like all your proposed changes, would just like personally to be able to fight with his exalted weapon without it growing to those huge sizes. Would keep the staff focused builds with the augment for the range+crit buffs, and without the augment for a normal sized staff ~6m. Either way i'm happy with his staff as long as its powerful.

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

It would certainly be more interesting, and more enjoyable than my own proposed buff

Feel free to add whatever you enjoyed to your post for visibility and different ideas, and as yourself put "conglomerated" thread is a good way to get DE to notice. Let's get our monkey boy a worthy fun rework, he definitely seems to be the next in line.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

i didnt know how it would work with the proposed aug i had. Everyones body in the radius gets ragdolled?

Hmmm, your augment was for the sunder effect to apply to multiple enemies?

So why not have it so that enemies hit by the body are also knocked back, leaving the same imprint. Essentially the same, it carrys the effect over to other enemies?

3 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Not against polymorphing per se, i find it thematically cool and your proposed changes seems fun. I just don't like the cloud model/gameplay we have at the moment, looks more like a mist and you don't actually get to ride on it (unlike my passive idea), and the other 2 transformations you suggested seems in my opinion although fun, alot of work/hassle to incorporate for what i think are not good rewards, single target finishers is meh, we have tons of frames that open to finisher and in a better way, and grouping up enemies for allies with a transformation seems to me a bit supporty for wukong, the only good/cool grouping up enemies ability i've seen so far is on Nidus. I enjoy polymorphing and would love to see it on the game, but i think it would be cool to have a Frame revolving around it completely, i just don't see the synergy with the rest of the kit on your ideas, and realistically seems like an amount of work not for a rework but for a new frame. 

The intention was simply to make it "cool" without losing any of the functionality that the ability currently provides. You and I both know finisher openers aren't necessary, Naramon focus does the job just fine, but some will argue against it if you suggest removing it.

As for grouping enemies for allies, that was only said to appeal to people who may not play Wukong. "Hey look, with this change he might have some use for you". In all honesty, it's again just because it sounds cool.

I'm wanting the transformation to be virtually instantaneous, so really you'll be using it to group enemies for yourself or stopping them attacking an objective or ally or something. Can be used on a dime sort of thing.

10 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

I agree on the shoddy AI, but then again equinoxes duality build works well.

Hmmm, and you'd want the clone to be using... a gun? That doesn't seem fitting, thematically speaking.

It would be effective with certain weapons whilst it aimbots everything, sure, but it wouldn't feel very Wukong imo.

10 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Yes elevate would be able to do the same but then again its synergy with the other skills, thematically appropriate, opens up possibility for different arcanes, and best of all you would be doing wukong stuff instead of hopping in and out of a frame with Potatochild X times that feels like a horrible gameplay decision and looks silly.

What about things like Life Strike, Healing Return and suchlike?

Losing a mod slot for them isn't a big deal, as the staff's damage is fairly awesome.

11 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Yes it is just aesthetically i dislike. I like all your proposed changes, would just like personally to be able to fight with his exalted weapon without it growing to those huge sizes. Would keep the staff focused builds with the augment for the range+crit buffs, and without the augment for a normal sized staff ~6m. Either way i'm happy with his staff as long as its powerful.

That's fair, I don't agree but it's fair.

12 minutes ago, MonkeyKV said:

Feel free to add whatever you enjoyed to your post for visibility and different ideas, and as yourself put "conglomerated" thread is a good way to get DE to notice. Let's get our monkey boy a worthy fun rework, he definitely seems to be the next in line.

Will have to sort that out in a bit, got a couple of things I'm dealing with atm.

[MickThejaguar]

On 2018-11-29 at 11:33 PM, DeMonkey said:

What is there left to even nerf? 

DE: *removes Defy*

[DeMonkey]

8 minutes ago, MickThejaguar said:

DE: *removes Defy*

Wouldn't make a difference, Umbral build and a couple of decent Arcanes is easily survivable enough.

Remove away DE, I dare you.

[MonkeyKV]

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

So why not have it so that enemies hit by the body are also knocked back, leaving the same imprint. Essentially the same, it carrys the effect over to other enemies?

Would be situational and impossible to aim but really fun 😁

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

The intention was simply to make it "cool" without losing any of the functionality that the ability currently provides. You and I both know finisher openers aren't necessary, Naramon focus does the job just fine, but some will argue against it if you suggest removing it.

As for grouping enemies for allies, that was only said to appeal to people who may not play Wukong. "Hey look, with this change he might have some use for you". In all honesty, it's again just because it sounds cool.

They all sound fun indeed

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Hmmm, and you'd want the clone to be using... a gun? That doesn't seem fitting, thematically speaking.

It would be effective with certain weapons whilst it aimbots everything, sure, but it wouldn't feel very Wukong imo.

Don't you use guns on Wukong? i dont see anything wrong thematically, hes a Warrior and we are all space ninjas with guns. Besides it is a CLONE, as in he is what YOU are 😂. Anyways i personally don't care for the clone build but would like for the option, i just find the breakable stealth with a decoy fitting for usefulness, synergy and trickery, the clone can monkey around and do 0% dmg for all i care. We are already at a point that more dmg is pointless anyways.

7 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

What about things like Life Strike, Healing Return and suchlike?

Losing a mod slot for them isn't a big deal, as the staff's damage is fairly awesome.

What about em? Mods should work just fine on the build, when the fight gets too intense that you simply cannot stand there and melee for healing you would go invisible, leap away and regen back. As with arcanes you can opt out of healing on the weapon since you already have it on the frame skill. I'm all in for less mandatory mods

Good discussion, anyways anything they do with Wukong will be an improvement, at his current state he only got his stick in my opinion (fun skill).

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

We literally have spin to win lasers that have stupud range with revenant.. why not let wukongs staff go to 20 or more meters of range? Renant misses ofteb enough due to varying angles, wukongs twirls are far worse.

 

Seriously just implement a straight cap of 20m...

[MonkeyKV]

1 hour ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

We literally have spin to win lasers that have stupud range with revenant.. why not let wukongs staff go to 20 or more meters of range? Renant misses ofteb enough due to varying angles, wukongs twirls are far worse.

 

Seriously just implement a straight cap of 20m...

The longer I play Warframe, the more I enjoy solo play because of this kind of stuff. Might be fun for the one wielding the 20m melee weapon or for the Saryn nuking the whole map or the revenant with the lasers, but I personally would like toning down a bit on the retarded AOE in the game. I think  this AOE/range creeping to match those is not the way to go. Then again it's my opinion and people might wanna head that way...I definitely won't stick around if every frame starts doing absurda room clearing on their own.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

This is what I would do to Wukong.

Wukong:

Passive: The more enemies he kills the longer the range on his melee weapons.

 

·       All abilities can be cast on the move.

 

1st ability

·       Increases the range of the ability cast to 20m with a 10m radius when knocking enemies down which can both be increased by range mods.

·       Holding the ability will cause it to swipe enemies for multiple hits

·       Using the ability will not ragdoll enemies but instead will either damage them or knock them down.

 

3rd ability REWORK

Wukong plucks hairs off his back to produce two clones of himself that will fight with him for a short duration. Upon death the clones will multiple itself all together spawning four clones.

·       It will either use the melee weapon that you have equipped, or it will use primal fury however If you cast it while using guns, the clones will fight with melee weapon.

·       Clones can use whatever stance you have in your melee weapon and stance from 4th ability.

·       (Synergy) You can increase it survivability by using the 2nd ability before you cast the 3rd ability. The invulnerability phase on the clone will only work once. 

·       (Synergy) The clones range attacks will be the 1st ability.

 

4th ability

·       Decrease the attack speed of the first two swings in the stance. or give him a completely new stance.

·       When blocking enemy damage, it will store up the damage and then can be released by preforming a slam attack.

·       (Synergy) The stored-up damage from blocking can be used to boost the damage of the 1st ability.

 

Fix: When preforming the animation, you can`t see the staff. (this has been like this ever since he was released)

Fix: Make the growing range of the melee weapon noticeable and effective.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

This is what I would do to Wukong.

I would suggest you create your own thread with your own ideas rather than attempting to hijack mine, but I know you've already tried. This is what, the 3rd or 4th time you've posted this in other people's threads?

As a friendly word of advice, it's decidedly poor form to just dump your ideas into other people's threads. That's what your thread is for.

Discussion about your ideas in your thread, discussion about other people's ideas in other people's threads.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

however if you mean hijack as in I took some of your ideas I haven't.

No, I mean you dumped all your ideas in order to promote discussion on them, without touching on mine at all.

As arrogant as it sounds, my thread, my ideas, not your thread, not your ideas. It's fine for you to compare your ideas to mine and have a discussion that way, but the presented feedback in the initial post is the topic for discussion.

As such, promoting discussion on ideas that aren't found within the original post can be considered a form of hijacking, and I'm politely suggesting and would appreciate it if you stop.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

As for other ppls threads I have had a right to do so unless they tell me not to.

I'm telling politely suggesting not to right now.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

As forewarning i an against total replacement of abilities. So start with the keeps.

Defy changes are nice. I remember commenting about that a while back

Iron jab, i want the staff to be the most balanced exaulted in the game with 30/30 cc/sc and a hard cap of 10-15m reach. I have a stance rework somewhere using wiki style.. 

 

The replaces..

what about keeping the current jab animation and adding damage to the enemies sent flying while also adding a quick charge attack that uses the staff in its full width for more enemies affected in a opticor style width? You know, similar to the nezha charge or the gara one?

As for walker, if it had proper speed bonuses that using it was preferable to parkour it would be worth it.. maybe even let it work like ivaras prowl in a way that you can break it briefly by firing.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

The replaces..

what about keeping the current jab animation and adding damage to the enemies sent flying while also adding a quick charge attack that uses the staff in its full width for more enemies affected in a opticor style width? You know, similar to the nezha charge or the gara one?

Hmmm, I wasn't so much suggesting it be replaced. Quite simply it's functionality remains entirely intact, but with additional mechanics.

Instead of standing in one place and jabbing, you leap and jab.

As for a wider jab, I can only really see it hitting maybe one or two more enemies.

1 minute ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

As for walker, if it had proper speed bonuses that using it was preferable to parkour it would be worth it.. maybe even let it work like ivaras prowl in a way that you can break it briefly by firing.

Again, for here my idea isn't necessarily a replacement. The cloud remains as one of the optional forms with increased speed and mild CC.

I recognise that some people may not like replacements, so I tried to keep that in consideration as much as possible. Iron Jab is still a Jab that punts an enemy away, just provides some mobility and isn't detrimental to melee combat. Cloudwalker still exists, but faster and as one of 3 options.

Not sure how I feel about having a Prowl-esque ability. Might be a little overkill. I like the trickster vibe, but I've always considered him more of an "in your face" trickster as opposed to a sneaky trickster.