DE, Never Sellout Please

[Wylel]

We have all seen it. Bungie, Blizzard, every single title EA has, and every company under the umbrella of the big 2 releasing fail after fail release, when they use to be amazing.

I am here asking, no BEGGING, please never sellout. Please never give in to the corporate idiots that think they know what we want, when in reality they are just giving investors what they want. Stay you, stay true, and we will always love you. No matter how buggy a release is, no matter how broken a hotfix is (HOTBROKE), we will still be here. Keep showing us love, and we will keep showing you our loyalty, and our wallets.

[Shiichibukai]

A lil late for that. They were already bought by Perfect World, a long while ago. But it didnt really change much so meh.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Shiichibukai said:

A lil late for that. They were already bought by Perfect World, a long while ago. But it didnt really change much so meh.

Leyou Technologies.

[Xirka]

9 minutes ago, Shiichibukai said:

A lil late for that. They were already bought by Perfect World, a long while ago. But it didnt really change much so meh.

Meh, they sold Class B shares with no voting right, so they could launch in China. 

[AdunSaveMe]

24 minutes ago, Shiichibukai said:

They were already bought by Perfect World

This is 100% false.

[Shiichibukai]

vor einer Stunde schrieb AdunSaveMe:

This is 100% false.

Is it now?

https://www.digitalextremes.com/news/2014/10/partnership-announced

🤔

[AdunSaveMe]

11 minutes ago, Shiichibukai said:

Is it now?

https://www.digitalextremes.com/news/2014/10/partnership-announced

🤔

Yes, it is. If you actually read that page, you would see this:

"Multi Dynamic Games Group Inc. and Perfect Online Holding Limited will acquire 58% and 3% respectively"

Perfect World (by way of its subsidiary) owns three percent of shares in the company. DE was not bought by Perfect World.

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

2 hours ago, Xirka said:

Meh, they sold Class B shares with no voting right, so they could launch in China. 

Something that last I knew failed miserably 

[kgabor]

Next thing you see, they become publishers and change name to DE games. :D

[AdunSaveMe]

7 hours ago, (PS4)purpleskullgamin said:

Something that last I knew failed miserably 

Only for console.

[180Degree]

12 hours ago, Wylel said:

We have all seen it. Bungie, Blizzard, every single title EA has, and every company under the umbrella of the big 2 releasing fail after fail release, when they use to be amazing.

I am here asking, no BEGGING, please never sellout. Please never give in to the corporate idiots that think they know what we want, when in reality they are just giving investors what they want. Stay you, stay true, and we will always love you. No matter how buggy a release is, no matter how broken a hotfix is (HOTBROKE), we will still be here. Keep showing us love, and we will keep showing you our loyalty, and our wallets.

If you know Warframe for a long time and know where they are coming from, you won't ever have created a post like this...
Please do some research on these guys. They have done incredible things and are not going to ''sellout'' anytime soon.

[Shiichibukai]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb AdunSaveMe:

Yes, it is. If you actually read that page, you would see this:

"Multi Dynamic Games Group Inc. and Perfect Online Holding Limited will acquire 58% and 3% respectively"

Perfect World (by way of its subsidiary) owns three percent of shares in the company. DE was not bought by Perfect World.

It was still bought out by a different company, Multi Dynamic Games Group. If its PWE or not dont matter at this point.

[(XBOX)DakVoidcloaker]

According to the Wikipedia, Leyou (formally Multi Dynamic) owns 61% of Digital Extremes.  That equates to COMPLETE control of the company, the extent of which depends solely on Leyou's level of desire to control the show.  I personally think this means the bottom line ($$) is more important than good game play.  Attention is mainly paid to fixes for items that are sold for platinum (fashion, cosmetics, bundles) and consequently the fixes for things that don't make money (like host change stability issues or Eidolon lure bugs) see no love.

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, (XB1)DakVoidcloaker said:

According to the Wikipedia, Leyou (formally Multi Dynamic) owns 61% of Digital Extremes.  That equates to COMPLETE control of the company, the extent of which depends solely on Leyou's level of desire to control the show.  I personally think this means the bottom line ($$) is more important than good game play.  Attention is mainly paid to fixes for items that are sold for platinum (fashion, cosmetics, bundles) and consequently the fixes for things that don't make money (like host change stability issues or Eidolon lure bugs) see no love.

The question is...

How much does Leyou desire to control the show? I've seen no indication that DE's creative freedom has in any way been compromised - for one, Steve's got as many mad ideas as ever. And they've had bad publisher experiences before (see Dark Sectors), so I wouldn't be too surprised if part of the deal was a large chunk of creative freedom. Have their decisions been unilaterally amazing? Far from it. Are they being puppeteered by Leyou? Unlikely. Leyou's a much smaller company than, say, Disney or EA, and they have developers that are making them relatively big bucks, one that is also in a very precarious position as they're operating a F2P, AAA MMO. Not exactly the cheapest genre. Against all the odds, DE is making it work in a market that is increasingly hostile to microtransactions and publisher interference. Leyou's likely thinking "We COULD make more money out of this, but that has a very strong risk of putting us quite deep in the hole. It's making us a pretty good amount of money, so let's not go out on thin ice". Probably the most Leyou is doing is preventing them from making risks that are too big.

Again, that's not to say that DE's perfect, but I'd chalk that up more to trying to please an internet community more than some outside company pulling the strings.

[(XBOX)DakVoidcloaker]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

The question is...

How much does Leyou desire to control the show? I've seen no indication that DE's creative freedom has in any way been compromised - for one, Steve's got as many mad ideas as ever. And they've had bad publisher experiences before (see Dark Sectors), so I wouldn't be too surprised if part of the deal was a large chunk of creative freedom. Have their decisions been unilaterally amazing? Far from it. Are they being puppeteered by Leyou? Unlikely. Leyou's a much smaller company than, say, Disney or EA, and they have developers that are making them relatively big bucks, one that is also in a very precarious position as they're operating a F2P, AAA MMO. Not exactly the cheapest genre. Against all the odds, DE is making it work in a market that is increasingly hostile to microtransactions and publisher interference. Leyou's likely thinking "We COULD make more money out of this, but that has a very strong risk of putting us quite deep in the hole. It's making us a pretty good amount of money, so let's not go out on thin ice". Probably the most Leyou is doing is preventing them from making risks that are too big.

Again, that's not to say that DE's perfect, but I'd chalk that up more to trying to please an internet community more than some outside company pulling the strings.

You're making a lot of assumptions.  Any investor in any company is going to have expectations.  This is an investor with majority ownership.  We really have no idea how much their profit philosophies are allowed to influence executive decision-making at Digital Extremes.  Certainly there are a lot of seemingly important bug fixes that continue to be ignored while patch lists overflow with cosmetic fixes to money-making items.

[Loza03]

32 minutes ago, (XB1)DakVoidcloaker said:

You're making a lot of assumptions.  Any investor in any company is going to have expectations.  This is an investor with majority ownership.  We really have no idea how much their profit philosophies are allowed to influence executive decision-making at Digital Extremes.  Certainly there are a lot of seemingly important bug fixes that continue to be ignored while patch lists overflow with cosmetic fixes to money-making items.

Well, one thing I stand by is that Warframes a free-to-play, AAA, MMO that's getting ever-more ambitious.

Something's gotta keep the lights on, feed the devteam and fund the development, and how much plat or prime access do you buy to get bugfixes?

Edited January 3, 2019 by Loza03
Grammar

[(XBOX)DakVoidcloaker]

I used to spend plenty on the game (adult with well-paying job), but elected to stop after one too many host migration frustrations.  That was several years ago, no improvement.  I was still able to make enough platinum in-game to complete mastery rank.  But if I'm being honest, there are now 5-6 other bugs and 1 major issue I've had with a particular "Friend" of the Lotus (and their confirmed support of that person's actions) which make Digital Extremes a company I am hesitant to support financially anymore.  Unlike most today who want everything for free, I do expect to pay for things.  I am a software developer myself and usually go out of my way to purchase licenses (and the proper amount of them) for applications I utilize, both professionally and personally.  I guess I believe that software that drives users to take periodic breaks because the dodgy performance causes more frustration than usefulness/entertainment (no matter how shiny) is less valuable than software that does what it's supposed to do nearly all the time.

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)DakVoidcloaker said:

I used to spend plenty on the game (adult with well-paying job), but elected to stop after one too many host migration frustrations.  That was several years ago, no improvement.  I was still able to make enough platinum in-game to complete mastery rank.  But if I'm being honest, there are now 5-6 other bugs and 1 major issue I've had with a particular "Friend" of the Lotus (and their confirmed support of that person's actions) which make Digital Extremes a company I am hesitant to support financially anymore.  Unlike most today who want everything for free, I do expect to pay for things.  I am a software developer myself and usually go out of my way to purchase licenses (and the proper amount of them) for applications I utilize, both professionally and personally.  I guess I believe that software that drives users to take periodic breaks because the dodgy performance causes more frustration than usefulness/entertainment (no matter how shiny) is less valuable than software that does what it's supposed to do nearly all the time.

Yes, well, that's your personal decision.

The fact of the matter is, people buy stuff, buying things is what let's them have food, and thus DE needs to produce things for people to buy.

So it makes sense that they have a large chunk of their dev team on that at all times.

[(PSN)Awesomenisticus]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)DakVoidcloaker said:

I guess I believe that software that drives users to take periodic breaks because the dodgy performance causes more frustration than usefulness/entertainment (no matter how shiny) is less valuable than software that does what it's supposed to do nearly all the time.

You believe DE has created this software to force players into taking breaks?

[(XBOX)DakVoidcloaker]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Awesomenisticus said:

You believe DE has created this software to force players into taking breaks?

That's really the conclusion you draw from the sentence you quoted?  I'll state it another way.  I believe that there isn't enough attention being paid to fixing critical bugs, and one result (based on forum posts I've seen) seems to be that people take breaks because the fun level doesn't outweigh the frustration.  I personally don't set out to take a break, but I do wander away.  It's when I return and experience the same bugs that I remember why.

[(PSN)Awesomenisticus]

On 2019-01-03 at 1:02 PM, (XB1)DakVoidcloaker said:

That's really the conclusion you draw from the sentence you quoted?

You clearly stated you believed the software "drives people to take breaks". That's why I was asking for a clarification.

On 2019-01-03 at 1:02 PM, (XB1)DakVoidcloaker said:

I believe that there isn't enough attention being paid to fixing critical bugs, and one result (based on forum posts I've seen) seems to be that people take breaks because the fun level doesn't outweigh the frustration.

Which critical bugs? (I'm generally curious which ones you're speaking of; you noted a "friend of Lotus" issue, if it's easier, PM me) And more importantly, do you feel that DE has "soldout" by not addressing these bugs?

I hope you don't read this as aggressive or antagonistic. This game has had an interesting lifespan so far, and being a part of how it develops over time has been quite enjoyable, despite all the bugs. Their (DE) development targets have changed over time, and I think it's growing pains instead of nefarious actions. And, at some point, some way, a company needs to be profitable, otherwise, they're just hobbyists. You mentioned you were in software development, any game development?

[notlamprey]

51 minutes ago, (PS4)Awesomenisticus said:

You clearly stated you believed the software "drives people to take breaks". That's why I was asking for a clarification.

Which critical bugs? (I'm generally curious which ones you're speaking of; you noted a "friend of Lotus" issue, if it's easier, PM me) And more importantly, do you feel that DE has "soldout" by not addressing these bugs?

I hope you don't read this as aggressive or antagonistic. This game has had an interesting lifespan so far, and being a part of how it develops over time has been quite enjoyable, despite all the bugs. Their (DE) development targets have changed over time, and I think it's growing pains instead of nefarious actions. And, at some point, some way, a company needs to be profitable, otherwise, they're just hobbyists. You mentioned you were in software development, any game development?

I tend to be sympathetic to "sellout" arguments, for a few reasons. Some of it is my personal temperament, and some of it is specific experience with this game and the business interests around it.

Because of the way that forum moderation works here, it's best to be very careful when discussing this type of material. Whether you believe it's justified or not, moderation has produced a chilling effect that discourages many people who would otherwise be more openly critical of DE and its partners from speaking as they wish.

Matters have reached a point where I wouldn't even necessarily consider it safe to communicate via Forum PMs. It's possible - not likely, but possible - those could (and would) be read by people looking to crusade on behalf of the company, its reputation, or their personal friends. There are people around here who hold grudges, and who have a reputation for exercising their personal biases inappropriately when and where their power allows.

The Warframe subreddit is a good option for exchanging messages with sensitive content, as are third-party chat programs or email. Twitter messages are also a viable alternative, for the moment.

What I wouldn't recommend: YouTube comments or voicing your concerns with any Twitch account that is linked to your Warframe account. Prominent community figures have been banned in the past, and the evidence is at least equivocal as to whether they were banned partly (or primarily) because people on staff didn't like them. Sustained, pointed criticism of DE or its practices in any place where a link can easily be established between the content of your commentary and your personal game account is putting you at risk of being put on someone's naughty list. I don't think there's any great risk of the average player being banned for criticism, but I advise caution anyway because there are people in and around DE who do view their relationship with the community as primarily adversarial.

If people are interested, there are a number of information resources I could pass along. It's important for people to be able to make their own informed decisions about this stuff.

_{edit check}

Edited January 8, 2019 by notlamprey

[(PSN)Awesomenisticus]

1 hour ago, notlamprey said:

Because of the way that forum moderation works here, it's best to be very careful when discussing this type of material.

Do you think, or read my statement as being critical of DE?

It's quite the opposite...I fully support their direction. If it's (your statement) regarding my question about what they (the person I directed the question to) has an issue with, I don't know what to say. I'm not here to criticize it, just trying to get a little clarification for his/her reason. Furthermore, I'm not about to jump forums to "get/spread dirt" about something that doesn't involve me.

Was that what you were referencing?

[notlamprey]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Awesomenisticus said:

Do you think, or read my statement as being critical of DE?

It's quite the opposite...I fully support their direction. If it's (your statement) regarding my question about what they (the person I directed the question to) has an issue with, I don't know what to say. I'm not here to criticize it, just trying to get a little clarification for his/her reason. Furthermore, I'm not about to jump forums to "get/spread dirt" about something that doesn't involve me.

Was that what you were referencing?

Well, I started with the goal of making a simple recommendation about caution when requesting or sharing information related to topics like the Guides of the Lotus. Generally, open discussion of that stuff seems fairly unwelcome in most parts of these forums - I imagine that's partly because of the potential for it to start fires every time it's brought up.

My post turned into a sweeping pseudo-PSA about all discussion on certain sensitive topics because I ended up thinking that I might as well generalize a bit for the benefit of anyone else who might come across that post and find something useful in it. Nothing to do with you specifically, but this stuff has come up so often and in so many ways over the course of nearly six years that habit took over and the post grew way beyond the original intended scope. 😛

[(PSN)Awesomenisticus]

34 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

sharing information related to topics like the Guides of the Lotus.

Been playing the game since '16; never knew what this is/was. No matter. Good looking out.

36 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

My post turned into a sweeping pseudo-PSA about all discussion on certain sensitive topics because I ended up thinking that I might as well generalize a bit for the benefit of anyone else who might come across that post and find something useful in it. Nothing to do with you specifically, but this stuff has come up so often and in so many ways over the course of nearly six years that habit took over and the post grew way beyond the original intended scope. 😛

Again, good looking out... 😉