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RealHeftyTrout

Did the Warframe become sentient in The Second Dream

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So during the finale of TSD the Warframe that you're using suddenly grabs the War impaled in them and rips it apart. How did it do that?  Was this because of the Operator using Transference, if so I thought they can only use it when either touching the frame or in the Somatic Link?  Right before that, Hunhow described the frames as nothing more but metal puppets dangling on Tenno strings, was this mean to show irony that the frames are actually sentient?

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I assume you're asking this because you haven't played The Sacrifice quest yet. If that's the case, play it. Or progress along until you can play it.

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But if you seen the movie Awakenings... the way I think about it after doing the quest 'Sacrifice', the Tenno are Robin Williams and warframes are Robert De Niro.

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28 minutes ago, RealHeftyTrout said:

So during the finale of TSD the Warframe that you're using suddenly grabs the War impaled in them and rips it apart. How did it do that?  Was this because of the Operator using Transference, if so I thought they can only use it when either touching the frame or in the Somatic Link?  Right before that, Hunhow described the frames as nothing more but metal puppets dangling on Tenno strings, was this mean to show irony that the frames are actually sentient?

Well, Operator cannot use transference unless he is in his own somatic pod or in direct contact with a Warframe due to a certain lore reason that will be revealed later on. There is also a reason why the Warframe moves by itself due to a certain lore reason that will be revealed even later on. 

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as noted, the Sacrifice will clear things up a bit - but suffice to say that Warframes aren't just a husk. it's a mixture of biological and artificial - it is a living thing of its own. it's not a new species and you're not going to suddenly have a conversation with it or anything, but it is some sort of living thing.

though similar may be said of much or possibly all of Orokin Technology - everything they created is a mixture of Artificial and Biological.

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"Oh, how you suffered to become this beast.  Yet you laughed at me..."

As others have stated, play the Sacrifice. Then go back and read/watch some of the lore.  The Mirage Prime Trailer has WAY different context after the Sacrifice.

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I disagree with those saying that The Sacrifice clears this up at all. The stuff we learn in The Sacrifice is very much a one-off case and it is just as likely that the movement of your Warframe at the end of TSD is just a teaser of the 'advanced transference' you learn in TWW. 

The end of TSD is still very much unclear, for better or for worse. 

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10 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I disagree with those saying that The Sacrifice clears this up at all. The stuff we learn in The Sacrifice is very much a one-off case and it is just as likely that the movement of your Warframe at the end of TSD is just a teaser of the 'advanced transference' you learn in TWW. 

The end of TSD is still very much unclear, for better or for worse. 

Heavily disagree with this. I really don't think Excalibur Umbra is a special case, he's just less mellow about everything. You aren't a Tenno without a Warframe (a discussion for another time) so your Z-kid and Warframe both need their awesome moment of breaking the established rules up to that point

TSD's climax is themed around the western trope of "heroic willpower" (such as this classic image). While tons of people have argued that it's the Z-kid being heroically willpowerful, I find it's thematically something the demonic superhero that is your Warframe is better suited for

TWW is very much eastern philosophy. Child learning inner strength from older mentor. This is where your Z-kid comes into play, this plot just wouldn't work with a Warframe

It's probably not something the writers were going for on purpose, but it fits

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yeah, i actually had a lot of arguments about this with people.

TSD's finale clearly shows that no-rig transference isn't yet possible for the operator. the proof is that evacuating from lua requires constant physical contact with the frame in order to control it.

when the stalker grabs the operator by the neck, there's no possibility of physical contact, and yet your warframe still breaks the sword and pulls it out. there are most likely certain precepts for warframes that restore autonomous behaviour in extreme situations. so much is clear even without the developements in transference in TWW and the silver grove as well as the nature of the frames in the sacrifice. neither the stalker nor hunhow could have even supposed that something like that could happen at all, and had in fact called them puppets. they were wrong for the right reasons - the full details of the warframe mandate are only known to the seven, and the seven are either dead or in hiding.

what might actually be happening with the frames is what doesn't happen with umbra, who immediately gains autonomy upon transference: his one looping memory is enough to permanently put him into an emergency autonomous state. since he is able to move, he is also able to take damage. compare this with other frames, who remain perfectly static and immune to damage, as if they're either being too heavily shielded to move, or being completely set beside the flow of time, making it impossible for them to interact with anything, let alone take damage or move.

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8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Heavily disagree with this. I really don't think Excalibur Umbra is a special case, he's just less mellow about everything. You aren't a Tenno without a Warframe (a discussion for another time) so your Z-kid and Warframe both need their awesome moment of breaking the established rules up to that point

TSD's climax is themed around the western trope of "heroic willpower" (such as this classic image). While tons of people have argued that it's the Z-kid being heroically willpowerful, I find it's thematically something the demonic superhero that is your Warframe is better suited for

TWW is very much eastern philosophy. Child learning inner strength from older mentor. This is where your Z-kid comes into play, this plot just wouldn't work with a Warframe

It's probably not something the writers were going for on purpose, but it fits

I mean, that "heroic willpower" could just as easily be "The Operator uses all of their will to make an 'impossible' Transference connection to their Warframe". Which would then be a lead in to TWW where the major thing you 'learn' is how to do that "impossible" transference all the time.

TWW is not about Warfrmes, yes, but the end result is the further empowerment of your Operator and how they interact with their Warframes. The net end of TWW is that your Operator no longer needs a transference chair to connect to their Warframes, sounds awfully familiar...

I am not saying that it is impossible or even unlikely that it was your Warframe exercising some sentience, just that it can just as easily be explained as an act of the Operator. I would rather not run around saying "It is this for sure" to people when it most certainly is not clear.

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11 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I disagree with those saying that The Sacrifice clears this up at all. The stuff we learn in The Sacrifice is very much a one-off case and it is just as likely that the movement of your Warframe at the end of TSD is just a teaser of the 'advanced transference' you learn in TWW. 

The end of TSD is still very much unclear, for better or for worse. 

I disagree, we know from the Sacrifice that Umbra is only fully sentient because of having memory's, but we also know that Warframes, before the Operators that is, despite not having memory's or being corrupted by the infested Hive mind, they would still go berserk, which means that they have ALWAYS been sentient creatures, all the tenno did was ease their pain, which has a side effect made the warframes just give in to us, becoming just shells, or thats what we though, because during Second Dream our Warframe clearly CHOSE to save us, showing us that they still have "something" in them, some bit of will.

Plus our Operator was being strangled, in that situation i am sure the last thing he/she would think is let me brake this sword stabbing my none functional warframe...

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1 hour ago, (PS4)d_HopeCraft_b said:

I disagree, we know from the Sacrifice that Umbra is only fully sentient because of having memory's, but we also know that Warframes, before the Operators that is, despite not having memory's or being corrupted by the infested Hive mind, they would still go berserk, which means that they have ALWAYS been sentient creatures, all the tenno did was ease their pain, which has a side effect made the warframes just give in to us, becoming just shells, or thats what we though, because during Second Dream our Warframe clearly CHOSE to save us, showing us that they still have "something" in them, some bit of will.

Plus our Operator was being strangled, in that situation i am sure the last thing he/she would think is let me brake this sword stabbing my none functional warframe...

I mean, sure, that's a theory, I am just trying to point out that we don't know that with full confidence. And we don't know that they have "ALWAYS" been sentient creatures, they were originally created that way but we don't know exactly how the Warframes designed post-Operator worked. If Ballas was able to erase all of Umbra's memories but one wouldn't it make sense that he could just completely wipe their minds to have them be a simple golem? From the Orokin's perspective, wouldn't they want to get rid of that sentience in order to ensure greater control?

Again, I am not saying "you're wrong, lol", I am just pointing out that you might be wrong and should at entertain other ideas.

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28 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I mean, sure, that's a theory, I am just trying to point out that we don't know that with full confidence. And we don't know that they have "ALWAYS" been sentient creatures, they were originally created that way but we don't know exactly how the Warframes designed post-Operator worked. If Ballas was able to erase all of Umbra's memories but one wouldn't it make sense that he could just completely wipe their minds to have them be a simple golem? From the Orokin's perspective, wouldn't they want to get rid of that sentience in order to ensure greater control?

Again, I am not saying "you're wrong, lol", I am just pointing out that you might be wrong and should at entertain other ideas.

Codex entries like Rhino Prime support the claim that Warframes are vanilla sentient, though that of course does not seal the deal. I agree that we lack sufficient evidence. DE does a great job revealing just enough by lore and storytelling. 

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Just now, Tellakey said:

Codex entries like Rhino Prime support the claim that Warframes are vanilla sentient, though that of course does not seal the deal. I agree that we lack sufficient evidence. DE does a great job revealing just enough by lore and storytelling. 

That would have been what Ballas termed Bio-drones rather than 'warframes' proper which were designed later by Silvana at Margulis's behest. This is muddied however by Ballas referring to the different organisms interchangeably at times.

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The Sacrifice does clear up alot.

Becoming a Warframe is indeed very mentally taxing. The Tenno not only soothe the pain of the Warframes but they also give them mental clarity and make them I dare say feel whole & well...human again.

The Warframes have always known who & what the Tenno are. They played along with the facade of the Second Dream as mute heroes.

We could dare say that Warframes somewhat & loosely play a parental role in the manner that they protect the Tenno from all manner of enemies.

So when the child was in true danger it fought through its pain, its distorted mind, & protected what it held dear. Perhaps it's only true friend.

Think of Umbra. He protects the Operator as well from *bleep*. He also spares the Operator on the Orbiter when he easily could have killed the Operator.

Additionally we see how the Operator had to meld kinds with Umbra & then helped Umbra overcome his torment. Bring him peace.

It's a symbiotic relationship. While not all Frames function as freely as Umbra frames, this could be caused by some inhibitors or what not are why the base frames don't act as sentient.

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The people who keep referencing The Sacrifice are wrong. Umbra is a unique creature, not a standard Warframe. If anything, Umbra is an abomination and a potential danger even though it's an ally right now.

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4 minutes ago, DarkKnight271 said:

The people who keep referencing The Sacrifice are wrong. Umbra is a unique creature, not a standard Warframe. If anything, Umbra is an abomination and a potential danger even though it's an ally right now.

That is supported by the quest yes, I would have to agree.

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1 minute ago, Urlan said:

That is supported by the quest yes, I would have to agree.

I believe this is the whole point of The Sacrifice, to show you how unique Umbra is... the other thing to keep in mind is that while other Warframes are built, piece by piece, Umbra is not assembled. And Umbra has a will of it's own.

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1 hour ago, DarkKnight271 said:

I believe this is the whole point of The Sacrifice, to show you how unique Umbra is... the other thing to keep in mind is that while other Warframes are built, piece by piece, Umbra is not assembled. And Umbra has a will of it's own.

Umbra may well have been unique but the Warframe we use is indeed created in our foundry, regardless of how he was initially created, he dies at the hands of Natah and we recreated him from scans. Ordis is pretty clear on this topic:

Quote

"Almost crude. If you can get another scan I may be able to synthesize a partial schematic of the victim"

"Uncertain if any Tenno has linked with this design. The Transference bolt seems different, but we cannot build this without more data."

"I have been upgraded, Star-Child. Your Warframe blueprint now has the required data. Check Foundry."

"The Warframe I warned you not to build, that you build anyway, caused a massive Transference overload and damaged my precepts. It has escaped out into the system".

What make Umbra "special" is unclear the only information we are given that differs from the usual warframe is this:

Quote

Uncertain if any Tenno has linked with this design. The Transference bolt seems different, but we cannot build this without more data.

Everything in the virtuvian is stated as generic information about all Warframes, not Umbra specific, which is supported by the Valkyr and Mirage Prime trailers.

At some point the Orokin stopped using humans as raw materials and started duplicating and/or modifying past creations without the need for human sacrifice (as illustrated by using the Old-War-era foundry we find in the Orbiter)

 

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6 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

Umbra may well have been unique but the Warframe we use is indeed created in our foundry, regardless of how he was initially created, he dies at the hands of Natah and we recreated him from scans. Ordis is pretty clear on this topic:

What make Umbra "special" is unclear the only information we are given that differs from the usual warframe is this:

Everything in the virtuvian is stated as generic information about all Warframes, not Umbra specific, which is supported by the Valkyr and Mirage Prime trailers.

At some point the Orokin stopped using humans as raw materials and started duplicating and/or modifying past creations without the need for human sacrifice (as illustrated by using the Old-War-era foundry we find in the Orbiter)

 

I get what you're saying but I still think Umbra is vastly different from any other Warframe. To me, it seems like Umbra was an experiment of some kind, maybe an early experiment or maybe a late experiment, it's hard to say. If it was an early experiment, then it would make sense that they would "dumb down" the later Warframes to make them more machine and less willful and independent. If it was a later experiment then maybe they were looking for a way to get rid of the Tenno who were becoming too powerful and wanted something that was easier to control with less free will.

This is how I see it anyway and why I think Umbra is Unique and not at all like the other Warframes.

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1 hour ago, DarkKnight271 said:

I get what you're saying but I still think Umbra is vastly different from any other Warframe. 

The main difference in Umbra and other warframes was the intent behind its creation. 

Warframes are cyborgs. You have a organic component modified by the technocyte virus to become a superhuman war machine. It's controlled by cybernetic implants that allow a tenno to interface with it on demand. It's likely those same implants suppress any inclination of the warframe to display agency, though perhaps imperfectly, as it seems to be not entirely effective or it has degraded some over time with interaction with the operator. 

Umbra was a direct creation of Ballas made with malice aforethought. He used the creation of an Excalibur warframe to punish an enemy. The result was atypical, but it's still a warframe--just one without the suppression of its self-awareness. Ballas wanted his enemy to suffer through the ages. We, as the operator, fix this, though maybe ameliorate might be a better description. 

Lastly, we do build the warframes through what looks like a nano-forge on the orbiter. Their initial creation was perfectly horrific, but we assemble them out of feedstock we gather from around the Origin System. All we need are the blueprints and we're good to go. 

To create a new umbra on another warframe would presently be problematic. DE probably has something in mind, but what is anyone's guess. I suppose it might be possible to remove the implants suppressing the warframe's initiative, but the danger would be something like we saw in the RPC--and that's not even addressing the moral issues involved. 

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hace 2 horas, DarkKnight271 dijo:

The people who keep referencing The Sacrifice are wrong. Umbra is a unique creature, not a standard Warframe. If anything, Umbra is an abomination and a potential danger even though it's an ally right now.

even with slideshows people dont understand that all waframes were made in the same way

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