Did the Warframe become sentient in The Second Dream

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, DarkKnight271 said:

I get what you're saying but I still think Umbra is vastly different from any other Warframe. To me, it seems like Umbra was an experiment of some kind, maybe an early experiment or maybe a late experiment, it's hard to say. If it was an early experiment, then it would make sense that they would "dumb down" the later Warframes to make them more machine and less willful and independent. If it was a later experiment then maybe they were looking for a way to get rid of the Tenno who were becoming too powerful and wanted something that was easier to control with less free will.

This is how I see it anyway and why I think Umbra is Unique and not at all like the other Warframes.

We'll Umbra can't be that "early" as the betrayal that the Vitruvian represented talked about the creation of the warframes and the addition of the Tenno in past tense. 

I don't think there is any suggestion one way or the other that Umbra is an "Experiment" (After all, this is after Ballas had betrayed the Orokin, why would he be innovating Warframes at that point, surely he would stop any experimentation that may give the orokin an advantage)

But that is mostly irrelevant anyway, Umbra is replicable and positioned after the bulk of the Warframe project is complete as a function of the betrayal, it's discovery and the punishment of Isaah's father. Whatever is "special" about Umbra is poorly defined to the point we really can't assert anything specific. It's simply undefined for the moment.

[DarkKnight271]

1 hour ago, Toppien said:

even with slideshows people dont understand that all waframes were made in the same way

I don't remember seeing a slideshow anywhere, but if I missed something I'd like to know where to look. I'm going mostly off memory and I'm fairly new to the game.

[DarkKnight271]

54 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

We'll Umbra can't be that "early" as the betrayal that the Vitruvian represented talked about the creation of the warframes and the addition of the Tenno in past tense. 

I don't think there is any suggestion one way or the other that Umbra is an "Experiment" (After all, this is after Ballas had betrayed the Orokin, why would he be innovating Warframes at that point, surely he would stop any experimentation that may give the orokin an advantage)

But that is mostly irrelevant anyway, Umbra is replicable and positioned after the bulk of the Warframe project is complete as a function of the betrayal, it's discovery and the punishment of Isaah's father. Whatever is "special" about Umbra is poorly defined to the point we really can't assert anything specific. It's simply undefined for the moment.

One thing that is special about Umbra... he's uniquely able to fight Sentients. Even without his custom mods his primal scream has a unique (as far as I know) affect against them.

[OvisCaedo]

5 minutes ago, DarkKnight271 said:

One thing that is special about Umbra... he's uniquely able to fight Sentients. Even without his custom mods his primal scream has a unique (as far as I know) affect against them.

well, it's unique for a frame to do it, but every operator attack already had the same effect. It's only a little more convenient, I think, until we actually start running into huge swarms of sentients. Except even then only really if they've also been getting AOE nuked, since you only really have any reason to strip resistances off of the ones that have already been attacked.

but certainly lore-wise it seems like he's supposed to be special for it.

Edited December 1, 2018 by OvisCaedo

[Urlan]

3 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Umbra may well have been unique but the Warframe we use is indeed created in our foundry, regardless of how he was initially created, he dies at the hands of Natah and we recreated him from scans. Ordis is pretty clear on this topic:

What make Umbra "special" is unclear the only information we are given that differs from the usual warframe is this:

Everything in the virtuvian is stated as generic information about all Warframes, not Umbra specific, which is supported by the Valkyr and Mirage Prime trailers.

At some point the Orokin stopped using humans as raw materials and started duplicating and/or modifying past creations without the need for human sacrifice (as illustrated by using the Old-War-era foundry we find in the Orbiter)

 

The Orokin specifically didn't make warframes, Silvana is specifically stated in Silver Grove as making the surrogate class warframes. What the Vitruvian describes are that Bio-drones were created before Tenno and Warframes proper came into the picture. Silvana did not use volunteers for the surrogates, as part of the entire reason was bodies without will to be used as remote controlled bodies to aid in Margulis's rehabilitation of the Zariman Ten-0 survivors. The Rhino prime codex entry is showing the viewer that the researchers gambled on the Tenno in cold storage being able to control the earlier proto warframe creatures; or as Ballas calls them, Bio-Drones. The Valkyr and Mirage Prime trailers just give further commentary from Ballas as to his commentary either personal as to the nature of the shape and usages of these warframes or presenting them to his peers in the Council of Seven, the Executors. The Bio-Drone project to fight the Sentient was considered a failure, Ballas said they turned against their masters, just as the Sentient did; just as we later would. This can be seen by the Bio-Drone Proto Rhino trying to kill his way out of the research lab until one of us calmed him.

As to how Umbra was put together in our foundry. Ordis refers to it as different than normal warframe construction. Using the Vitruvian Data and the samples you brought him, he is regrowing the Umbra, not replicating the blueprint to make a new organism. This is why it actually has eyes and a person inside the outer chassis. Something Alad V and Vor have both pointed out that our normal warframes do not have. Missing Organs, eyes, and most understandable physiology. Umbra is described by Ballas as unique, made from a special strain. There might be others like Umbra down the road, or similar in the aspect they have developed will as might have been the case with New Strange Chroma or even our 2nd Dream warframe potentially, but we have no data suggesting the normal or primed warframes were made in a similar manner.

[Oreades]

4 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Umbra may well have been unique but the Warframe we use is indeed created in our foundry, regardless of how he was initially created, he dies at the hands of Natah and we recreated him from scans. Ordis is pretty clear on this topic:

Which raises the question if the Foundry can recreate Umbra fully from a scan ..... why did the Orokin care about Transference and why do the Queens care about Kuva? 

Seems like a standard issue Foundry is all they really "needed" 

[Oreades]

Forums why u so double post. 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Oreades

[(NSW)Gregory]

I had the same thought, coming in from the PS4 and having to start over.

It's easy to brush off the first time around, because it's like "Oh, the operator must still have some control over the Warframe even from a distance..."

But then you learn what you learn in The Sacrifice, and you're like damn, foreshadow much?

Kinda makes you think...the Warframe that you used during the Second Dream quest...the one that saved your butt...did you sell it when you ran out of inventory slots? 🙃 or when you got the Primed Variant of it? And if so, if you recraft it, is it the same Warframe? Or just another of the same genetic mold?

(Warframe of Theseus?)

[Toppien]

hace 3 horas, Oreades dijo:

Which raises the question if the Foundry can recreate Umbra fully from a scan ..... why did the Orokin care about Transference and why do the Queens care about Kuva? 

Seems like a standard issue Foundry is all they really "needed" 

cuz they dont want to wait 3 days for them to revive/get a new body

[Redfeather75]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Gregory said:

I had the same thought, coming in from the PS4 and having to start over.

It's easy to brush off the first time around, because it's like "Oh, the operator must still have some control over the Warframe even from a distance..."

But then you learn what you learn in The Sacrifice, and you're like damn, foreshadow much?

Kinda makes you think...the Warframe that you used during the Second Dream quest...the one that saved your butt...did you sell it when you ran out of inventory slots? 🙃 or when you got the Primed Variant of it? And if so, if you recraft it, is it the same Warframe? Or just another of the same genetic mold?

(Warframe of Theseus?)

I think some primitive cultures in history believed that if you shaped something in just the right way it could capture a god, so maybe warframe lore thinks that it can capture souls with shapes. 😄

Edited December 1, 2018 by Redfeather75

[SilentMobius]

4 hours ago, Oreades said:

Which raises the question if the Foundry can recreate Umbra fully from a scan ..... why did the Orokin care about Transference and why do the Queens care about Kuva? 

Seems like a standard issue Foundry is all they really "needed" 

Not sure what you mean here.

Tenno Transference was the only way to control the rampaging Warframes (As was described in the Vitruvian) The fact the Orokin could eventually make copies of Warframes doesn't mitigate the fact that those copies weren't usable/directable without the Tenno.

The queens cared about Kuva because it was the substance needed to enable continuity, which depended on having a healthy subject. The queens also then wanted a Tenno host. 

Being able to build Warframes from scratch doesn't change those things at all.

 

[Oreades]

5 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Not sure what you mean here.

Tenno Transference was the only way to control the rampaging Warframes (As was described in the Vitruvian) The fact the Orokin could eventually make copies of Warframes doesn't mitigate the fact that those copies weren't usable/directable without the Tenno.

The queens cared about Kuva because it was the substance needed to enable continuity, which depended on having a healthy subject. The queens also then wanted a Tenno host. 

Being able to build Warframes from scratch doesn't change those things at all.

 

But it does, if the foundry can rebuild something as biologically complex as Umbra from mere scans of a scarf and some smears, with all of it's faculties intact. Then it doesn't seem like a huge stretch that it should be able to reconstruct a healthy host and if that hosts faculties are as intact then job complete cause it's already you. At the very least it would remove the need to use other sentient beings to transfer into because the Orokin could just sculpt their perfect vessel from scratch. 

I mean from the sound of Kuva are just Nanites that eat your brain as evidenced with the resounding of the Cephalon fragments. Which would suggest that all continuity is, is said nanites reconstructing the target brain within the target host body.

Since the foundry would appear to have the capacity to reconstruct a host with it's faculties intact. It would suggest it should also be able to functionally print Organs which would be the solve for the Corpus organ farming the Solarans. Need a liver? Just set the Foundry to Liver. I mean simple organs should be incredibly simple compared to building a complete Warframe. I mean why don't we just print Legs some new Arms? or Eudico a whole new human body? 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Oreades

[(PSN)I_I_Hope_I_I]

I dont know where people are getting this Titania thing from, but the Sunrise Imprint clearly stats that wen Silvana did transference whit Titania, she felt a TORTURED PRESENCE, you know, like the PRE TENNO WARFRAME, during Silver Grove we never lerned HOW the warframes were made, just that, they were made, and now, we know HOW they were made.

Umbra is only diferent for 2 reasons : His transference bolt and him having memorys, thats all.

DE so far gave the information that ALL warframes were made trought Helmith injecting humans, us thinking otherwise is just a THEORY, so thats all that is.

Until DE gives us lore that states warframes were max produced whitout humans, the cannon is that all warframes are infested humans.

[SilentMobius]

On 2018-12-01 at 11:52 AM, Oreades said:

But it does, if the foundry can rebuild something as biologically complex as Umbra from mere scans of a scarf and some smears, with all of it's faculties intact. Then it doesn't seem like a huge stretch that it should be able to reconstruct a healthy host and if that hosts faculties are as intact then job complete cause it's already you. At the very least it would remove the need to use other sentient beings to transfer into because the Orokin could just sculpt their perfect vessel from scratch. 

We already know that the Orokin loathed clones, viewing any duplication as completely beneath them to the point of killing anyone showing those attributes (The Kuria Poem). Cloning was for slaves only. So that was a complete no-no during the Orokin era.

After that point, very few factions had perfect cloning, seemingly the ancient tech that the Tenno have are the only examples of reliable cloning left.

On 2018-12-01 at 11:52 AM, Oreades said:

 

I mean from the sound of Kuva are just Nanites that eat your brain as evidenced with the resounding of the Cephalon fragments. Which would suggest that all continuity is, is said nanites reconstructing the target brain within the target host body.

Oh no, Kuva is much more likely to be void-related. I mean it's literally a screaming cloud that excites "The man in the wall", that we can only collect with void abilities, that changes out operator eyes to the form that the "Man in the Wall" gives us when we collect it. The Kuva guardias have Kuva infused weapons that make then immune to Warframe powers.

Edited November 26, 2021 by SilentMobius

[novalery]

Play defense... look at the “warframe cryopod”. Then play phorid assasination. Pay attention to his conversation.. no connect the dots..

[SilentMobius]

9 hours ago, novalery said:

Play defense... look at the “warframe cryopod”. Then play phorid assasination. Pay attention to his conversation.. now make things up

Fixed that for you.

[kaboom_832]

The Warframes are semi-sentient. They aren't going to get up and start walking around petting your kubrow or anything, but in situations were, lets say the operator is about to die, the frame might be able to get up and help. 

Spoiler

"it was that somehow, within that derelict horror, they found a way to look inside an ugly, broken thing, and take away its pain"

that means that the "ugly broken things" must be at least kinda sorta alive to feel pain, and to have it taken away. I think that's how transference works.

Edited November 25, 2021 by kaboom_832

[SneakyErvin]

Very old thread but already necroed so I'll shime in.

I think many people miss what the whole quest is about. Which is to show the shear power of the operator. No the frame doesnt act on it's own, the operator does so even at the brink of death. The quest is about the operator "leveling up", not about some meatpuppet with spasms.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2018-11-30 at 12:41 AM, DrBorris said:

I disagree with those saying that The Sacrifice clears this up at all. The stuff we learn in The Sacrifice is very much a one-off case and it is just as likely that the movement of your Warframe at the end of TSD is just a teaser of the 'advanced transference' you learn in TWW. 

The end of TSD is still very much unclear, for better or for worse. 

QFT.  It wraps up nothing.  You could make multiple arguments as to what actually happens in that moment to cause the Warframe to save the situation.

[-Krism-]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think many people miss what the whole quest is about. Which is to show the shear power of the operator. No the frame doesnt act on it's own, the operator does so even at the brink of death. The quest is about the operator "leveling up", not about some meatpuppet with spasms.

The Second Dream is about what the Tennos really are

The War Within is about Operators

 

Also, just because a quest shows something doesn't mean it can't ask other questions, in that case: Did the warframe move on its own? Which it did, it moved instinctively, that's the whole point of that scene, to show that warframes are more than just a remotely controlled suit & get the answer in the next quest

In TSD, we could only control our frame if we were using a transference bolt, i.e. the golden pod on Lua & the chair in the Orbiter, or by directly touching it. No, we didn't control our frame at the end of the quest because there was no link between the two

[CephalonCarnage]

TBH not going to comment on such an old necro. Can we stop this happening - nearly all the posts waking these up seem to add so very little anyway.

Edited November 26, 2021 by gbjbaanb
no necro

[-Krism-]

3 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

TBH not going to comment on such an old necro. Can we stop this happening - nearly all the posts waking these up seem to add so very little anyway.

Yet you had to reply

[(PSN)Vexx757]

20 hours ago, -Krism- said:

Did the warframe move on its own? Which it did

Years back I had the idea of warframes moving on their own and I had ppl cussing me out saying it was stupid then what happen some years later? DE showed echoes of umbra, the fact that they were planning to add this say that warframes moving on their own is possible but I bet those ppl won`t apologise or say my idea wasn`t stupid.

[CephalonCarnage]

1 hour ago, -Krism- said:

Yet you had to reply

I replied, then noticed the date, and tried to delete - but there isn't that option.  So just wiped the message to avoid peopel replying. oh well.

[Gamer_Auto]

On 2018-11-29 at 9:54 PM, RealHeftyTrout said:

So during the finale of TSD the Warframe that you're using suddenly grabs the War impaled in them and rips it apart. How did it do that?  Was this because of the Operator using Transference, if so I thought they can only use it when either touching the frame or in the Somatic Link?  Right before that, Hunhow described the frames as nothing more but metal puppets dangling on Tenno strings, was this mean to show irony that the frames are actually sentient?

You'll see when you get to The Sacrifice. ;3 And I'm pretty sure that'll be a big point after The New War.