stat locking on rivens considered harmful

[(PSN)teacup775]

This is in reference to scott’s remarks to tactical potatoe.

My comment is I don’t agree. Rivens (and dispositons) is a system, in your own words, can be that can be game breaking, only mitigated by the depth of rng to a broken groll. They are also an obvious dev and maintenance headache, again in your own words.

Your sentiment begs the question of why other games like Reaper Of Souls have “mod” systems that suffer none of these problems (or only have occasional breaks which are not structural to the system).

The downsides of the current system include riven flipping in trade and feeding kinda rediculous obsessive casino behavior patterns also in trade. People go insane for rivens for the current meta. Other players reap mountains of plat for it. Is this really the “game” DE intends to produce?

RNG gates on gear punish dedicated excelent players who get shafted by rngeezus. I’ve never been a fan of it, because I know people like that.

The system has no  progression; it doesn’t let people tweak a weapon to their liking above regular mods. The system doesn’t breath life into mediocre weapons to boot.

rivens themselves should be limited to the bounds of a particular weapon’s stats that don’t break the game, not a dispositon based on popularity. After that, a god like riven should be a matter of effort with progressable but increasing expense doing so. If people really like an otherwise mediocre weapon, enable them to make it great, if the care to put effort into it.

 

I know this topic is beaten to death, but I your view seems a bit shuttered, and ignores what I would call a corrosive element to the community.

[--RV--Dopekoke]

I have no idea what you're talking but I would like to read up on it.  Is this some tweet or a stream that recently happened?

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

While your opinion is yours, and I respect it while remaining neutral, this seems like another rant about some rng system and it's "drops". We can question the system for what it brings, good or bad, but not for being the unlucky ones of it.

But despite that what I'm really curious about is context. What's this about Scott and 'Tater? Who said what about rivens and who commented about it?

[KingOfRisen]

8 minutes ago, Dopekoke said:

I have no idea what you're talking but I would like to read up on it.  Is this some tweet or a stream that recently happened?

 

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Pauloluisx said:

But despite that what I'm really curious about is context. What's this about Scott and 'Tater? Who said what about rivens and who commented about it?

Youtube link. Rivens are being talked about roughly 16 mins in.

[Nez-Kal]

Video at time stamp of start of discussion.

(Also, I side with Scott. RnG only, no Stat Locking.)

 

[Nez-Kal]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

People go insane for rivens for the current meta. Other players reap mountains of plat for it. Is this really the “game” DE intends to produce?

You could say "Player go insane for the new Meta Arcanes/Primes/Trade-ables, and only certain parts of the Player-Base can farm them efficiently to get and sell them. Is this really the "Game" DE wants to produce?".

The answer is: Rivens are literally the most "Fair" version of that market style you're hammering on because they're RNG to get in the first place, RnG to Unveil a certain Weapon, and whether you roll them 1 time, or 100 times, it doesn't increase the odds of getting a valuable product out of the Riven. They don't require a Player to have no life but Farm-Life to get something good, they don't require players to have only the most Meta set-ups to acquire efficiently. They're just there, they just happen, and anyone can potentially profit from it. (Especially when Devstream "Gift of the Lotus" Riven drops come around. Plat flow for all.)

[Nez-Kal]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

The system has no  progression; it doesn’t let people tweak a weapon to their liking above regular mods.

"Damage, Multishot, Crit Chance, Crit Damage, -Zoom/+Recoil/-Ammo"

Mm. Yep. I'm sure people are going to, ahem, "Tweak" their weapons to their liking's in a multitude of diverse and interesting ways if they could lock and choose their Riven stats............*cough*...

Edited December 1, 2018 by Tangent-Valley

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Well now that I've seen it I can form an actual opinion on it... I agree with Scott. But I'll not even start an essay on it, I'll just point out the multiple threads about powercreep by frames like Saryn, Mesa, etc. and how they ruin the game for newbies. I mean, on one end you've got those saying the game should be challenging and hard, like Dark Souls hard, and on the other hand you have people embracing powercreep and the god-like feel. Rivens are already borderline Meta-frame-esque of a topic, and further enabling them to become even more broken would be bad. At least the 300% bonus in Arbitrations is just applied there, and you can have fun breaking the game. Rivens apply to the whole game.

[Nez-Kal]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

RNG gates on gear punish dedicated excelent players who get shafted by rngeezus. I’ve never been a fan of it, because I know people like that.

I have over 1.8k hours played. Does that mean I should be able to Choose what Prime part I want to get from the new Prime Loot relics I farmed up before the Fissure missions starts? Cause if not, I'm being "shafted by rngeezus", despite being a dedicated and excellent player.

(You see how it doesn't make sense? Yes, I've been frustrated with a Riven before as I've rolled it 78 times and gotten nothing Exponentially Better on it, but I understand that that's just part of the system, and part of the game.)

Edited December 1, 2018 by Tangent-Valley
Whoops, wrong Played Time Stat number. Fixed

[--RV--Dopekoke]

Thanks @Tangent-Valley 

Okay, I understand now.  Yeah, being able to roll, get 1 out of 3 that you like, lock it, then keep rolling until you eventually get everything you want would be very broken because everybody would roll their own into S rank rivens very easily.  

[Autongnosis]

il y a 28 minutes, Tangent-Valley a dit :

(Also, I side with Scott. RnG only, no Stat Locking.)

Disclaimer: i have yet to watch the video. 

I am on the fence about that. I don't like the riven stat lockers idea. But Rivens in general are way, waaaay too much RNG and way too little grind. I'd rather them being the other way around. 

Something that makes it so that if you use the gun and keep using it and rolling the riven you get progressively better returns from that riven.

[Thrymm]

12 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

The answer is: Rivens are literally the most "Fair" version of that market style you're hammering on because they're RNG to get in the first place, RnG to Unveil a certain Weapon, and whether you roll them 1 time, or 100 times, it doesn't increase the odds of getting a valuable product out of the Riven. They don't require a Player to have no life but Farm-Life to get something good, they don't require players to have only the most Meta set-ups to acquire efficiently. They're just there, they just happen, and anyone can potentially profit from it. (Especially when Devstream "Gift of the Lotus" Riven drops come around. Plat flow for all.)

Not really.

Yes, they are RNG.  Yes, a person might get all junk rivens or all good rivens, or a mix.

You're dead wrong, however, as to whether rolling them 1 time or 100 times increases the odds of getting a valuable product.  To use 1 and 100 as an example, a person that has rolled a Riven 100 times is literally 100 times more likely to have a valuable product than a person that has 1 roll--each roll does not become a greater chance than the last, but taking the same chance 100 times versus once is a significantly larger amount of opportunities to get a good roll.

Locking stats is nothing more than a cumulative chance for progress.  It has its own set of drawbacks from a game perspective, however, since it not only speeds up the process but also nearly guarantees certain stats on every riven--a thing that clearly isn't intended to be the case(despite the simple fact that most rerolls are a search for the same things, or disposal of the same things, or both, so this homogenization already happens with the current system as well). 

And yes, this requires a player to have no life but farm life.  In order to even bother going down this road, you must first obtain a riven for a weapon that is worth doing it---no mean feat in itself, short of purchasing it.  Depending upon how specific the weapon you want to use is(say, Akmagnus versus "any semi auto pistol", for example), you may be digging just to get started for a very long time. 

After that, you Kuva farm, ad-nauseum, for ever and ever, because in most cases you probably don't want your weapon to negate crit chance to get status, or vice versa, or perhaps your weapon of choice is a reload or recoil hog and your damage+crit+status(or whatever you're looking for) riven also doubles the recoil/reload.  The riven "grind" is actually quite significant, as your odds of creating a useful one are so low as to be far and away less likely than obtaining a specific prime part, rare mod, or anything else.  If I'd done nothing but Kuva farm and sorties, I'd still be searching for my golden goose without even setting foot in PoE, much less Vallis yet, because I'd still be repeating Kuva farm missions over and over to get that next reroll because statistically speaking, I wouldn't have obtained it yet(though also statistically speaking, I'd be alot closer than I really am).

The Kuva farm literally has the potential to be infinite.  There is no finite time for it to end because you could infinitely reroll and never obtain what you want.  There isn't even a cumulative chance for success--each roll does nothing to reduce the amount of potential rolls you may need.  You are literally at square one until the exact moment  you cross the finish line. 

Not judging whether this is a good or a bad thing(here, anyway), just pointing out that it's the reality of it.

[peterc3]

Locking stats would come if trading Rivens was totally removed or there was a heavy, across the board nerf to Rivens.

[Arcira]

On 2018-12-01 at 7:45 PM, Tangent-Valley said:

You could say "Player go insane for the new Meta Arcanes/Primes/Trade-ables, and only certain parts of the Player-Base can farm them efficiently to get and sell them. Is this really the "Game" DE wants to produce?".

The answer is: Rivens are literally the most "Fair" version of that market style you're hammering on because they're RNG to get in the first place, RnG to Unveil a certain Weapon, and whether you roll them 1 time, or 100 times, it doesn't increase the odds of getting a valuable product out of the Riven. They don't require a Player to have no life but Farm-Life to get something good, they don't require players to have only the most Meta set-ups to acquire efficiently. They're just there, they just happen, and anyone can potentially profit from it. (Especially when Devstream "Gift of the Lotus" Riven drops come around. Plat flow for all.)

What´s fair about a system that values a 30 min and a possible 100h effort likewise? Rng is never fair it´s the definition of unfair. 

On 2018-12-01 at 7:56 PM, Tangent-Valley said:

I have over 1.8k hours played. Does that mean I should be able to Choose what Prime part I want to get from the new Prime Loot relics I farmed up before the Fissure missions starts? Cause if not, I'm being "shafted by rngeezus", despite being a dedicated and excellent player.

(You see how it doesn't make sense? Yes, I've been frustrated with a Riven before as I've rolled it 78 times and gotten nothing Exponentially Better on it, but I understand that that's just part of the system, and part of the game.)

This comparison doesn´t make sense. It´s about estimated and predictable time investment. For example if a new prime arrives the difference between rgn and non-rng is simple. Either I get the part I want between 5-10 min of farming (depending on your "skill") or I get it between now and never (depending on your luck).

I think it´s a matter of mind set. Some people need to get 78 times frustrated in order to get a fullfilling feeling when they finally get the sweet god roll after 79 rerolls. Personally I prefer a system where I know every step will increase my scaling a little bit. No matter which kind of system you prefer after 79 you will have the same strength on average.

Anyway in my opinion the real problem is the lack of alternative options for gambler and those who want slower but consistant progression.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Arcira

[Fishyflakes]

On 2018-12-01 at 12:56 PM, Tangent-Valley said:

 but I understand that that's just part of the system, and part of the game.)

It doesn't have to be.

It's not a law of science, it's a video game mechanic that is always up for change.

Welcome to Warframe beta

[AlienOvermind]

Rivens' massive RNG-gates on all layers make the whole system very platinum-driven. I.e. want a Riven in the first place? The only reliable way is to buy one. Want a riven for a specific weapon? The only reliable way is to buy one. Want a riven with specific stat? Well, you know the only reliable way to obtain one.

So, stat locking would mean that obtaining a riven with specific stats would be much easier. And thus prices would drop significantly. And lower prices = less platinum spent across the board = less platinum purchased from DE. It's this simple, really. Of course Scott is against stat locking on Rivens.

Edited December 4, 2018 by AlienOvermind

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, AlienOvermind said:

Rivens' massive RNG-gates on all layers make the whole system very platinum-driven. I.e. want a Riven in the first place? The only reliable way is to buy one. Want a riven for a specific weapon? The only reliable way is to buy one. Want a riven with specific stat? Well, you know the only reliable way to obtain one.

So, stat locking would mean that obtaining a riven with specific stats would be much easier. And thus prices would drop significantly. And lower prices = less platinum spent across the board = less platinum purchased from DE. It's this simple, really. Of course Scott is against stat locking on Rivens.

Less platinum per riven, yes, but cheaper rivens still get buyers and the time taken to find a buyer increases proportionate to the riven's price. Also, if riven stat locking became a thing, the solution to stop the price drop is just to stop stat locked rivens from being traded (i.e. account bound). 

Making rivens cheaper just makes riven flipping increase - it probably won't change the total plat amount being moved around.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Guest

[AlienOvermind]

8 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Also, if riven stat locking became a thing, the solution to stop the price drop is just to stop stat locked rivens from being traded

Yeah, that would probably be a fair compromise. But the thing is: prices of the ideally rolled rivens would still drop. Potential buyer always has a choice: either buy a cheap riven and pour kuva onto it or buy expensive riven with ideally rolled stats. With the ability to lock stats the former would look much better than it is now, so more people would pick that over buying the expensive riven. And thus riven sellers would have to adjust.

Edited December 4, 2018 by AlienOvermind

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, AlienOvermind said:

Yeah, that would probably be a fair compromise. But the thing is: prices of the ideally rolled rivens would still drop. Potential buyer always has a choice: either buy a cheap riven and pour kuva onto it or buy expensive riven with ideally rolled stats. With the ability to lock stat the former would look much better than it is now, so more people would pick that over buying the expensive riven. And thus riven sellers would have to adjust.

They would just have to sell a bigger volume for a lower price. 

Sure, you can sell that Kohm god roll for 20,000, but it would take a longer time than to sell say, a cheaper riven for say, 3000 plat, because people with 20,000 plat to spare are just that much rarer and probably have what they want already. The number of potential buyers affect total sales as much as the price per purchase.

If you sell a primed chamber for 100,000 plat and everyone with 100,000 plat already has a primed chamber with no desire to buy another, you still have 0 buyers. The potential price is 100,000 p, yes, but the actual income generated is still 0 because no buyers are willing to pay. Potential value is not money in the pocket if it cannot be liquidated.

Also, you are not taking into account that if people have more certainty in what they are buying and are convinced it can take less time to get the stats they want, the purchase and flipping of cheap Rivens will go up as people are more willing to invest in certainty.

If stat locked rivens become untradeable, it also means the moment someone locks stats, that riven is taken out of circulation. Prices of bad rolls would go up as the overall number of rivens in circulation has decreased. It is just best rolls that drop in price. But lazy whales are always willing to fork out a lot.

The effect would be moving Riven prices closer to an average. Bad rolls for good weapons become more expensive as people's demand for these rivens go up and locked rivens are out of circulation, decreasing overall supply. Good rolls go down in price as demand for good rolls has decreased due to less buyers.

But how would this affect overall plat sales? The effect is not likely to be as big as anyone thinks and can go either way.

DE doesn't have to give a horse's ass about the individual Riven Sellers, really, so long as the plat packs are being bought and plat is traded. The plat per trade doesn't matter so long as plat overall is bought. 

I mean, I get it, there are some rich vets who are concerned with their plat income, much like the hoohah over Arcanes going to Eidolons and their price crashing overnight.

[AlienOvermind]

38 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Also, you are not taking into account that if people have more certainty in what they are buying and are convinced it can take less time to get the stats they want, the purchase and flipping of cheap Rivens will go up as people are more willing to invest in certainty.

If stat locked rivens become untradeable, it also means the moment someone locks stats, that riven is taken out of circulation. Prices of bad rolls would go up as the overall number of rivens in circulation has decreased. It is just best rolls that drop in price. But lazy whales are always willing to fork out a lot.

Yeah, I kinda missed that indeed. You have a good point, maybe introducing stat-locking with trading restrictions wouldn't really reduce amount of platinum spent on rivens. Now we only need to deliver that idea to DE.

Edited December 4, 2018 by AlienOvermind

[(PSN)teacup775]

14 hours ago, AlienOvermind said:

Yeah, I kinda missed that indeed. You have a good point, maybe introducing stat-locking with trading restrictions wouldn't really reduce amount of platinum spent on rivens. Now we only need to deliver that idea to DE.

Perhaps a bit lost in the thread is there are a multitude of ways to make stat locking a big improvement.

first I suggest, per weapon, the types of stats for damage enhancement are limited to prevent truely broken stats. And by that I mean total stats, not a percentage of base.

In this way, terrible weapons could have  a chance to be redeemed. Overall, weapons could be less tuned out of the box and rivens used to make them uniquely strong (for the weapon).

Besides trading lockouts, the cost to stat lock (proposed I believe by lifeofrio) could be made very high cost (kuva whatever). It may take weeks with some level X effort to both lock and roll what you want or what is marketable. Price would reflect build and also effort to make. Flipping would not be a thing (so much).

The depth of RNG, the amount if flipping, the utter lack of value for “trash” weapon rivens, that landscape goes away or is diminished.

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

If they don't want to add the stats lock option, they could at least start getting rid of NEGATIVE dmg, multishot, crit chance and crit dmg stats when rolling a riven....

or drop the changes to get one of those damn dreaded negative stats to something around 1 %

maluses like +recoil, -projectile flight speed, higher reload, negative Faction dmg -fire rate etc i can live with , the above mentioned stats in a good roll are the ultimate troll,that's even WORSE when it happens on those so called high dispo outdated trash weapons that could and should be " redeemed " with a riven

rotfl

Edited December 5, 2018 by arm4geddon-117

[vector77]

2 hours ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

If they don't want to add the stats lock option, they could at least start getting rid of NEGATIVE dmg, multishot, crit chance and crit dmg stats when rolling a riven....

Would be nice if they would allow us to reroll only negative. You still will need to roll the riven a lot to get good positives, but at least you will have some control over it. The way I see it, it will cost more kuva (or maybe riven transmuters that drop from hydrolyst) and you'll be able to roll any existing negative and also have a chance that the roll will remove it or add it if your riven didn't have one. Also it will make rivens a bit more future-proof. Currently there are negatives that are not even negatives: -zoom on lanka, some weapons don't care about +recoil, -ips is good if you want to increase procs of slash or other elements, -finisher on melee, -flight on hitscan non-shotgun weapons. So if some day in the future DE will change how the system works or the weapon itself and your riven negative will suddenly become bad you'll be able to simply roll it to get something better. I feel that it won't be as broken as stat locking, but certainly much better than complete randomness we have now.

Edited December 5, 2018 by vector77

[NeopetsMaster4432]

A stat locking system would be totally cool. Even if stat locking increased the Kuva cost by astronomical amounts, then there would actually be progression and not just RNG. It sucks to feel like you've just wasted time farming and have nothing to show for it.

And it does kinda seem silly seeing people trying to sell rivens for like 12k plat, wouldn't mind seeing those become more reasonable.But people have told me that they don't think the riven system will change precisely because DE makes tons of money from people buying platinum to buy such ungodly priced rivens.

In the event that rivens were made untradeable upon being stat-locked,  although it would kill the price of those ungodly expensive rivens, it would also substantially drive up the price of trash rivens. With the amount of RNG involved in the acquisition of rivens, it would suck for anyone to have to pay like 500+ plat just for a trash riven. I guess it's a balancing act with DE's potential income and availability to players. 😛

[(PSN)XxDrakenguardxX]

Honestly stat locking wouldnt be a bad thing at all. It would make getting a bad roll worth something if even 1 Stat is good.

At this point its just the platinum sales. I get DE dose need to keep the lights on and these plat sales keep the game free. Still taking some of the RNG out wont kill the whole thing.

 

I stopped farming kuva and rivens almost entirely cuz it's simply no fun to roll a riven and get crappy rolls 50+ times. Actually make stat locking a post 50 roll option and there you go. You've already dumped more kuva than you shoulda needed to for something decent by that point.

Edited December 8, 2018 by (PS4)XxDrakenguardxX