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DE, please improve Arbitration. Don't abandon it like Sanctuary Onslaught.


Jarriaga
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DE, I know you've made the effort to please veteran/high level players with dedicated modes and we make you feel like we're never satisfied. Please understand that we're concerned with the execution and some design decisions that try to reach a middle ground or compromise against what we had been expecting.

Sanctuary Onslaught was one of said modes. It still needs some of quality of life, spawn rate, and map layout improvements that are pending with no hope of improvement in sight. It may not be a high priority for you, but it affects perception and satisfaction on our end. 

We now have Arbitration. It's meant to be a dedicated mode for high level players but why, WHY does it have to be so slow? Why is a game mode that new players won't even get to even see unless they stick around for a while so slow to ramp up in difficulty? Why did you spread-up rewards at half the pace? 

It makes the game mode more tedious than it should. You did great on keeping the infinite C rotation, but giving the rewards at normal progress rate while doubling base enemy level and scaling apeed would be much appreciated. 1 hour Survival feels like the difficulty it should have after 20 minutes.

We wanted intensity out of Arbitration. We wanted a tooth and nail swim or sink game mode... And this is not it just because of how you decided to scale the ramp-up speed even though this is a game mode new players won't even know it exists. It feels like an endurance run in which you still have some leeway for the first hour or the first 40 waves. 

Just PLEASE double the starting level for enemies, increase the ramp-up speed, and change survival/defense to 5 minute/wave rewards. That's all we're asking. And just to make it more intense and increase the likelihood of failing the mission, consider randomly spawning enemy Warframe specters into the mix instead of a drone once in awhile. That will further increase the tension.

Please DE, don't abandon Arbitration so soon. It's a vicious cycle of a new mode for veterans gets introduced, it's not as intense as it should or the rewards are not worth the hassles so it's played and dropped, then half of the community complains that there's no appropriate content for veterans and then the other half complains about the first half saying that they are entitled and never satisfied.... Then a new mode is introduced with some flaws that need to be ironed-out and the cycle continues.

How can the cycle be broken when the core issue at hand is not addressed before support, updates or QoL improvements are relegated in priority? 

Other than that I'm happy with the mode. 

 

Edited by Jarriaga
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You can blame the reward interval time on the "Cheese". It's DE's middle-ground approach to the issue they've let get out of their hands. GREAT Endo rewards, Ayatans, and Special Arbi Only Mods, but set on a longer Time limit.

I mean, I'm sure you've seen some of Life-of-Rio's background vids during his Click-Baited topic discussions. It doesn't take that much to "Endgame" for hours on end. DE didn't want folks like that getting literally Piles more of rewards and mods for their Cheesy play-styles. (As with the Ayatans/Arbi-Mods, these players could also get a stronger choke hold on the Market for them, due to their increased drop chances in the Infinite C rotation.)

 

 

And no, I don't like it. I really much hate it, and it DOES feel too slow for me too, but I understand what players DE is thinking about when they introduce these features.

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41 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

You can blame the reward interval time on the "Cheese". It's DE's middle-ground approach to the issue they've let get out of their hands. GREAT Endo rewards, Ayatans, and Special Arbi Only Mods, but set on a longer Time limit.

I mean, I'm sure you've seen some of Life-of-Rio's background vids during his Click-Baited topic discussions. It doesn't take that much to "Endgame" for hours on end. DE didn't want folks like that getting literally Piles more of rewards and mods for their Cheesy play-styles. (As with the Ayatans/Arbi-Mods, these players could also get a stronger choke hold on the Market for them, due to their increased drop chances in the Infinite C rotation.)

 

 

And no, I don't like it. I really much hate it, and it DOES feel too slow for me too, but I understand what players DE is thinking about when they introduce these features.

And why should DE just leave the cheese as it is and make everyone else pay the price of some meta or nothing no fun allowed players trying to have their cake and eat it too? Why can't they balance the game mode itself around the cheese? I'm having a hard time thinking that ultra specific cheese builds would still work just fine if you throw in an enemy Warframe specter that is immune to abilities like Arbitration drones.

What if they are coded as a "test" in which a specific player is the only one who will be able to damage the current specter or arbitration drone?

What if a full wave of specters is possible? Cheese players can't deal with an Ember specter the same way they deal with an Oberon specter since they can't change mods on the fly. 

Or why not add a condition of banned mods that absolutely break ultra cheese builds?

Or why not make a wave nullify ALL WF abilities for the player dealing the highest damage? 

Why not make a wave chase after and spawn non-stop around the player dealing the highest damage, ignoring the mission target in favor of outright killing the player? 

I mean the game mode is called Arbitration. There can and should be some arbitrary rules working against you and against the cheese. 

Why is it that the only apparent middle ground I see to deal with cheese players involves punishing other players rather than make cheese a lot more difficult? Sure there will always be cheese. They will always find a way. But by that logic we should just give up and stop expecting for a game mode to be hard and rewarding because of some players breaking it for everyone else. 

Might as well stop playing the game at all at that point. 

Edited by Jarriaga
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23 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Might as well stop playing the game at all.

You might as well, because maybe half of what you just spouted DE has suggested in some way for other projects in the past, and the Community has responded with a resounding "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO", and so, DE didn't break the Cheese for a number of things because of this.
(For instance, your "Banned Mods" idea was brought up as a suggestion for something before, and the Community AND DE responded to it with "So why do we even have the Mods and their variety if we can't use them in chunks of the game?".)

 

Seriously, you might as well make a Forum Post saying "This is why Invisibility is harming the game with its Super Cheese, and here's how I suggest we nerf it so hard it can no longer be used as Cheese" post, and see the response you get.



My own exaggerated response to the Cheese issue is:

"Okay, we need a new End-game Enemy type that spawns in more and more frequently as you go higher in the Enemy scaling/levels (Until the missions spawns nothing but them), and they should be completely immune to Warframe powers and require Operator Dash/Blast to break their Defenses (Like Kuva Guardians), have 95% Damage Reduction over their entire armored body other than their Head and can't be head-shot with AoE weapons, can see Invisible Frames for 10 Seconds if that Frame fires their weapons or casts an ability, Poses a close-range AoE to shutdown any Warframe ability they run into (Atlas/Gara Walls, Octavia Mallet, etc.), and poses weapons that scale at least 10x Higher than the current Enemy Level allowing them to one-shot Players VERY early on."

 

Edited by Tangent-Valley
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48 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

You might as well, because maybe half of what you just spouted DE has suggested in some way for other projects in the past, and the Community has responded with a resounding "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO", and so, DE didn't break the Cheese for a number of things because of this.
(For instance, your "Banned Mods" idea was brought up as a suggestion for something before, and the Community AND DE responded to it with "So why do we even have the Mods and their variety if we can't use them in chunks of the game?".)

 

Seriously, you might as well make a Forum Post saying "This is why Invisibility is harming the game with its Super Cheese, and here's how I suggest we nerf it so hard it can no longer be used as Cheese" post, and see the response you get.



My own exaggerated response to the Cheese issue is:

"Okay, we need a new End-game Enemy type that spawns in more and more frequently as you go higher in the Enemy scaling/levels (Until the missions spawns nothing but them), and they should be completely immune to Warframe powers and require Operator Dash/Blast to break their Defenses (Like Kuva Guardians), have 95% Damage Reduction over their entire armored body other than their Head and can't be head-shot with AoE weapons, can see Invisible Frames for 10 Seconds if that Frame fires their weapons or casts an ability, Poses a close-range AoE to shutdown any Warframe ability they run into (Atlas/Gara Walls, Octavia Mallet, etc.), and poses weapons that scale at least 10x Higher than the current Enemy Level allowing them to one-shot Players VERY early on."

 

I'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Those players either want a challenge or they don't, and DE should hold their ground if they made a game mode with no revives as a direct response to a low mission failure rate.

You can’t go left and right. You can’t make a game mode that is meant to be hard and do nothing about the cheese tactics because of hypocritical meta player complaints. Sure, armor scaling and bullet sponges are a problem but this mode was made for the sole purpose of fighting those enemies. If cheese players have a problem with this then they are free to do 12 hour regular survival runs and stop asking for difficulty. 

The banned mod list can work in many ways that are still balanced. For example, the list can be dynamic and changes per player every hour just like the buff works. Another example is to make the banned mod list work per WF. For example, Narrow Minded banned only for Octavia for that hour. Normal players are not affected by this since they don't stick to ultra meta builds while cheese players are forced to go with something else or don't bother due to their efficiency or nothing mentality.

Your example with invisibility doesn't apply here for the same reason: We are talking about changes for a specific, individual, dedicated game mode that was advertised to be tooth and nail hard and doesn't affect the rest of the game at all in the slightest. Cheese players can remain invisible and cheese the rest of the game just fine for as long as. They want. The invisible player is cheesing the Arbitration? Now that's different. This is Arbitration; a game mode designed around making players die and fail. Take it a step above Simaris in Sanctuary Onslaught and have the invisibility ability disabled for that wave. Arbitration should not be subject to the same rules as the rest of the game. It's a new mode. It's a its own mode. It can and should work with its own rules. 

The game should be balanced around cheese. DE shouldn't make a new, dedicated game mode for veterans and bail out when cheese players complain if they are the very same hypocrites complaining about a lack of difficulty or end game content.

I have no sympathy for those hypocrites, and neither should DE as those players simply won't allow for anything to be done, fixed or added as if it's not beneficial to their plat sales. They are holding the game back. They are holding DE back. And I don't see why I should pay for it. 

Edited by Jarriaga
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Most the endurance runner community doesn't even care about the rewards. We gave up on that topic years ago.

I don't spend 2+ hours in a Survival or Defense because the rewards are good. I do it to test my builds.

Arbitrations are the opposite of what I as an Endurance runner want. I want fast scaling. High level starting and enemies that don't break as they scale.

Used to be 45 min was a good Solo run back in the day. Now it takes 2 hours or longer and that's SOLO. Groups take so much longer.

I've been trying to promote DE take the cap off scaling enemies in Fortuna because they scale so quickly and it's a new playground.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You're telling the wrong person. It's the "endgame" players who are trying to do that. 

Very true. I personally am somewhere in between casual and Endgame. All I want is some actual challenging content that can push my min-maxed builds to the limit without spending to long in one mission. Currently we have nothing like that and it is rather frustrating to say the least. I personally love it when we get some hard content for awhile. What I don't like is when it gets nerfed to make the new players happy and leaving the people who just want a challenge and don't complain about the difficulty high and dry. Warframe mat be a good game but it is far from perfect.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You're telling the wrong person. It's the "endgame" players who are trying to do that. 

I see where you're coming from and perhaps I was not clear. I was using the phrase in the context of players who want hard end-game content but want to be able to cheese it. I was not referring to that player in particular if he's/she's not one of those. 

Edited by Jarriaga
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1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Most the endurance runner community doesn't even care about the rewards. We gave up on that topic years ago.

I don't spend 2+ hours in a Survival or Defense because the rewards are good. I do it to test my builds.

Arbitrations are the opposite of what I as an Endurance runner want. I want fast scaling. High level starting and enemies that don't break as they scale.

Indeed. That's why I centered my initial post around the difficulty and didn't mention adding or improving the rewards. Arbitration should be intense because it's Arbitration. There are other modes for testing endurance.

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4 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

And no, I don't like it. I really much hate it, and it DOES feel too slow for me too, but I understand what players DE is thinking about when they introduce these features.

A well made point, but a flood of endo or sculptures does one thing in a market: crush the price unless demand rises with the larger supply.

 

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

I don't spend 2+ hours in a Survival or Defense because the rewards are good. I do it to test my builds.

Frankly, they should tweak the simulacrum. Set tileset enemies and conditions to your hearts desire. Do whatever you feel like.

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36 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I see where you're coming from and perhaps I was not clear. I was using the phrase in the context of players who want hard end-game content but want to be able to cheese it. I was not referring to that player in particular if he's/she's not one of those. 

No, I understand that part, but I'm telling you that the problem is within the endgame community itself. 

There are a lot of people who want more challenge. 

But in that group are ones who don't actually want to play the endgame content for the challenge. They want more rewards (but seemingly never the ones on offer) and refuse to do the content because they don't want to do it because the rewards "aren't worth it". They want novel content. (but there are often complaints about the actual novel content before it is even released). They want actual endgame content but can't ever agree amongst themselves what that would be. 

 

Those are the ones that you need to convert. 

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13 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

...

Just PLEASE double the starting level for enemies, increase the ramp-up speed, and change survival/defense to 5 minute/wave rewards. That's all we're asking. And just to make it more intense and increase the likelihood of failing the mission, consider randomly spawning enemy Warframe specters into the mix instead of a drone once in awhile. That will further increase the tension.

Please DE, don't abandon Arbitration so soon. It's a vicious cycle of a new mode for veterans gets introduced, it's not as intense as it should or the rewards are not worth the hassles so it's played and dropped, then half of the community complains that there's no appropriate content for veterans and then the other half complains about the first half saying that they are entitled and never satisfied.... Then a new mode is introduced with some flaws that need to be ironed-out and the cycle continues.

This topic needs more visibility, I agree with the OP 100%. It's very frustrating and disappointing that DE made enemy level scaling so slow in Arbitrations.

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As a casual /endgame player whatever this means i think biggest issue DE face is cheese. The endurance runners don't actually play the game they cheese it which is difficult for any developer to actually make difficult content for cause if you nerf abilities players complain and if you specifically account for cheese you hurt players playing the game as intended. Its a tough balancing act. 

My suggestion for arbitrations though is for DE to raise starting level back to 80 - 100 double the level scaling and return rewards to normal rotations that would be fun and challenging and it won't be too long and boring as it currently is and keeping 1 life mechanic would still be there. Win win for everyone i think. Cause personally don't think the rewards are good enough to even worry about players who can go hours stock piling since its just endo and mods. 

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20 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Indeed. That's why I centered my initial post around the difficulty and didn't mention adding or improving the rewards. Arbitration should be intense because it's Arbitration. There are other modes for testing endurance.

 

Well, people have different reasons for doing Endurance runs. Some want to see how long they go. I personally just want to test builds and if you min/max well enough literally nothing short of lvl 300+ enemies is going to let you do that and since Arbitrations scale slower than normal endless missions there's no reason for me to play them.

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I would be pretty happy if Kuva was in there...that and if  they would throw in Spectors that drop the rare aura mods because I really hate running around earth scanning flowers to make a key to get the fifth version of aura mod I have already..

 

But, you need to have all the enemies in this mode if you throw in all the rewards...and no push overs just dying to the youtube meta...I would toss out all the normal grunts and just funnel in Bursa, NOX, Sentients, Spectors, Juggernauts and Hyena let alone Corrupted Vor, the Stalker, Zanuka and the Gustrag 3...and let it be a real battle between the higher tier player and the units meant to keep them in check...but you get all the rewards if you can make it to em...

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey
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21 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No, I understand that part, but I'm telling you that the problem is within the endgame community itself. 

There are a lot of people who want more challenge. 

But in that group are ones who don't actually want to play the endgame content for the challenge. They want more rewards (but seemingly never the ones on offer) and refuse to do the content because they don't want to do it because the rewards "aren't worth it".

I think it's less the rewards and more the endgame offered by the game is not appealing to them. I mean, I doubt anyone would not want to play it if the content were engaging enough for them.

Take my case for example. Do I think prime parts are a decent and fair reward, even after building all prime gear in the game? Of course, absolutely. I could always sell extra parts for quick plat that would help me for instance to buy future prime parts to lessen the grind in a future prime release. Do I play fissures to get them? Absolutely not, I find fissures completely dull.

And why is that? Well, a few reasons.

First, the regular missions (non-endless) are not engaging enough to me because I'm a few thousand hours into the game and all I can find there are level 15-40 enemies, and also, because they have no surprises anymore. As an experienced player you can never expect to be surprised in a regular mission unless you're doing that no alarm riven challenge and Stalker shows up 😭. What I mean by surprise is the same concept we already have in game with assassins and lockdown alarms but tweaked for high level players. In the same way syndicate assassins, stalker, zanuka, and the lockdown alarms that trigger bursa and comba units in corpus missions put pressure on new players, these new units should do the same for a veteran player. They could use rathuum units for grineer missions, and index units for corpus missions, and well we already have the juggernaut for infested which can be pretty formidable on kuva floods. Hell, I would even love an enemy that we couldn't defeat and all the engagement in the encounter came from how you escaped such a unit. Imagine a unit that could keep up with parkour 😲. I heard the Orb Vallis units are quite engaging but has DE even mentioned if they are planning on bringing those to regular missions?

Second, the game won't allow me to play the endless missions (that I find more engaging) when I want to. OK, I can't stand another capture, or exterminate, lets do an axi fissure survival! Oh, it's not in the queue yet, now what. Yeah, we lost choice when they added the fissure system. At least the void keys, however flawed they were, allowed players to choose their preferred game mode to farm prime parts. I remember playing mostly survivals and defence, modes I enjoyed the most, and then trading whatever pieces I farmed there for pieces that dropped on less enjoyable missions like mobile defense to complete different prime sets.

And third, well, enemy level again. Oh, you enjoy survival and defence you say, ok but first have a test of patience fighting low level enemies for an hour before you get to enjoy enemies fit for your gear - DE. Seriously? I mean, we have been asking for faster scaling for years, and now that we finally get the possibility of faster scaling with arbitrations they make it scale even slower than regular endless! Preposterous.

All these design decisions work opposite to incentivizing high level players to stick with the game. I'm referring to randomizing what fissures are available at a certain time, and keeping high level mob behind a time wall. They are not locking only progress behind time walls (forma, foundry, etc) which I think I understand they have to do since this is a free-to-play game, but also enjoyment is behind time walls which I don't understand.

And before anyone talks about how such high level content would affect the newbies, don't worry they are safe! None of this has to conflict with the current missions we already have in the game, so yeah, newbies are safe indeed. Simply, make it so that when you select the mission you get the option of choosing the difficulty, just like you do when you select nightmare missions or any other extra mission that is available on the node. Oh, but this will split the playerbase! No, the playerbase is already split between vets staying in their orbiters staring at tradechat without much to do (me!), and only new players that still haven't farmed everything necessary getting to play the low level missions.

On 2018-12-01 at 9:13 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

They want novel content. (but there are often complaints about the actual novel content before it is even released).

I don't understand what you mean by this. Relevant feedback can be given before or after a release. If it's baseless complains you are talking about, then, it wouldn't make a difference whether the complain is done before or after the fact.

On 2018-12-01 at 9:13 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

They want actual endgame content but can't ever agree amongst themselves what that would be.  

And yet, you can see a lot of agreement amongst vets in this very thread. Look around, there are more threads like this. You'll find plenty of agreement in those too.

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The whole "slow" thing has left me unimpressed with Arbitration so far.

I'm not terribly concerned with rewards overall, but slogging through ten minutes per rotation is a chore for me, not a challenge.  It's more challenging to find a genuine time block worth plunking into one mission, really---I mean, we already want to do some standing stuff, sorties, maybe forma/level something, etc, etc, so why am I also going to waste time with these things when I need to generate thirty minutes just to see a C rotation?

As if that's not enough, I have to agree, they aren't particularly hard.  I've had to leave a solo run here and there not because of any particular difficulty, but rather because the spawns don't keep up with the reduced life support.  I just plain run out at times that, with the normal system, I wouldn't have even dropped below 90%--I've done this at least once in a place I normally wouldn't have left the first room yet(because, well, that's how spawns in survival work).  The enemies are falling fast, even being one-shot in hordes, but it isn't yielding what it needs to.  Why would I want to spend an hour fighting against that, just to peter out on life support.

It also does precious little for actual fail rate.  A player can go until they die, "failing" the mission, and walk out with their rotation rewards.  You're not gambling the next round at all, you're gambling the 3k salvage you where going to put on your million plus pile of existing salvage.  Not much of a risk.

And then there is the 300% gimmick...........It's neat.  I like it.  But in context of challenge, it's extremely poor.  We can take weapons into these things that already mow through with impunity, then top them off with a hefty bonus that fairly begs you to slaughter enemies far above your pay grade.  All this winds up serving to do is put on display that the spawns are too slow and the enemies aren't overly difficult or quickly scaling---it becomes pretty obvious when your arca plasmor is still full clearing a hallway in two shots and now your thumb twiddling as your life support ticks away.

It's plenty savable, but it really needs some tweaks.

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On 2018-12-02 at 3:13 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No, I understand that part, but I'm telling you that the problem is within the endgame community itself. 

There are a lot of people who want more challenge.  

But in that group are ones who don't actually want to play the endgame content for the challenge. They want more rewards (but seemingly never the ones on offer) and refuse to do the content because they don't want to do it because the rewards "aren't worth it". They want novel content. (but there are often complaints about the actual novel content before it is even released). They want actual endgame content but can't ever agree amongst themselves what that would be. 

  

Those are the ones that you need to convert. 

People like you are a mystery. From your comments I get you don't think the game need challenging content, so what are you doing ?

Since a single reactor, no forma, no exilus warframe can tackle the entire content, I guess you don't use those resources ? No need for Primed or corrupted mods either. In that scenario you reached your frames end build 100h into the game, and that's it.

If you actually tried to put a few forma in some frames and weapons you would know Arbitrations are barely a challenge, same for ESO. Those game modes try to be a middle ground, and hence fail at both. In an attempt to keep the modes accessible to people who have no place in them, they lowered to the difficulty way to much.

There is no "endgame community". It's simply normal players who realize 100h into the game that there is nothing that's going to pose a threat to your frame once you use a reactor on it. Every single game out there have a end game, and more often than not it is the most significant part of the game. Do I remember leveling up on WoW ? Barely, but I remember the raids. You put all the people who ask for some challenge in the same bag, call them "end game community" and mock their lack of unity, as if it proved your point. Of course different people have different ideas of what would be the ideal end game, should we expect something else ? If anything it proves that it's not one small kind of player that are loudly asking for the same thing, but an issue everyone is facing.

What's your incentive for actively being against more challenging content ? I honestly fail to see a reason, outside of "I like being a $&*^".

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Just now, O2D3nTe said:

People like you are a mystery. From your comments I get you don't think the game need challenging content, so what are you doing ?

No, I'm saying quite clearly that the game already has challenging content. I'm saying that a lot of people sit down and copy builds from the Internet without thought. They then use the overpowered builds to cheese the content and build up their power fantasies. 

Then, in order to preserve that fantasy, they refuse to even consider depowering, and refuse the endgame content, sometimes trashing it before it's even released, on the basis of "those rewards aren't good enough for me". 

We're constantly being given new content in this game. Several of the more recent updates are geared towards endgame players. The problem here isn't on DE's end or mine. It's the people who keep demanding things that they can't define, don't understand, and then refuse to play. 

10 minutes ago, O2D3nTe said:

I honestly fail to see a reason, outside of "I like being a $&*^".

Anyone can fail to see something that they don't want to see. All they have to do is walk around all day with their eyes closed. Sort of like how you closed your eyes when you realised that there was a post that didn't agree 100% with your position, and started ranting about how I don't want challenging content, despite that not being a part of myself I post at all.

Maybe you can try opening yours some time. 

 

Good luck with that, Tenno. 

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