Multishot vs. Scattershot (Multishot glitch)

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

DE has stated in Devstream 59 & 60 that the multishot mechanic has been glitched for a very long time (dubious a claim as that may be since it has been as we know it for years), so I figured I could talk about how it could be changed.

Multishot

DE wants multishot to function such that it is a randomized chance to discharge another bullet/shell instance, which will be taken out of stored ammo. Tigris with Split Chamber, would have a 90% chance to fire a second shell simultaneously with the initial discharge, being spent from spare ammo; not the magazine. I'm not sure how infinite ammo weapons will be affected.

The overall damage output wouldn't change, but it would cost more ammo, which is only an issue for bullet hoses, like any of the Grakatas (not that they don't already have ammo problems, & aren't underused because of it). In a way, it can be thought of as a hybrid between fire-rate & magazine capacity. Using Tigris with Split Chamber again, it can be thought of as having a 90% increase in both magazine & fire-rate. This is because it will often fire 4 shells per magazine, & in the time it takes to fire 2 shells, it is actually firing 4, nearly doubling the fire-rate, all while increasing the expenditure of ammo like a traditional fire-rate mod.

I do find it odd that DE would want multishot to function this way, as a nightmare mod with both a fire-rate & magazine capacity stat would, practically, do the same thing (though a larger magazine currently increases overall ammo the player can hold, while this multishot change wouldn't). Other than indirectly nerfing our bullet hoses further, & figuring out how infinite ammo weapons will behave with the change, I see no reason DE can't make this happen.

Scattershot

Scattershot would function much like how Multishot currently does, except that accuracy would decrease according to the percentage increase. If Split Chamber were to function this way, the 90% increase in bullets would be coupled with... not a 90% decrease in accuracy. No. More clarified, it would result in a 90% increase in the cross-sectional area of the bullet spread. Still a decrease in accuracy, but a little more intuitive as to how it decreases.

To explain the idea of the bullet spread cross-section, imagine being in Simulacrum, standing ~5 in-game meters away from a pillar firing a weapon full-auto to get an idea of the accuracy. The area of that spread is the cross-section, specifically at 5m. This is what would increase by 90%, the area of that spread, & would be consistent at any range. Testing at 1m with Split Chamber would still have a spread area 90% larger than testing at 1m without.

My Personal Thoughts

If DE goes with their intended multishot change, I would like to see the introduction of new scattershot mods. However, I would much more prefer that they change multishot to how I described scattershot.

Edited December 4, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Peter]

Where did you see that?

Edited December 4, 2018 by Peter

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

53 minutes ago, Peter said:

Where did you see that?

Devstream 59 & 60. Edited it in as well. My bad.

Ya, it was awhile ago. I figured it was an unresolved problem, though a minor one, so I decided to do a reminding post. XP

Edited December 4, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

2 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

DE has stated in Devstream 59 & 60 that the multishot mechanic has been glitched for a very long time (dubious a claim as that may be since it has been as we know it for years)

Just sounds like the standard BS devs use to try and stop people from complaining about a change. As for the change I personally don't think I would use either mod.

[Tyreaus]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

As for the change I personally don't think I would use either mod.

Yet I can also see why other people would, if these were to replace standard multishot. It might not be great on every setup, but the Multishot idea works well with ammo mutation or Carrier (or, in theory, anything with unlimited reserve ammo) while the Scattershot thrives with any perfectly accurate weapon (bows when aiming, beam weapons - assuming it works as OP describes instead of throwing the beam all over the place like current -accuracy mods).

[Peter]

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Devstream 59 & 60. Edited it in as well. My bad.

Ya, it was awhile ago. I figured it was an unresolved problem, though a minor one, so I decided to do a reminding post. XP

Sad, seems like a dead idea then.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

10 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

I do find it odd that DE would want multishot to function this way

 

Sounds like they want to nerf multishot, but didn't stop and think about how the change would balance with existing mechanisms and end up making things redundant.

 

lots of old dead mods in this game attest to that nearsighted thinking....

 

sure hope they don't go through with it

 

[Grimmstyler]

Changing Multi-Shot would change everything for the worse from what it sounds like.

Sounds like it would make the mod system more confusing than what I'm use too.

Sounds like it would destroy most Rivens  just to perk a Trade Chat back up.

If it happens I'm sure I'll lose interest in Warframe because ill have to do everything all over again.. Represents unprofessional game design.

It's bad enough i don't have Riven Capacity for every weapon in the game.. (Which each weapon should have an alotted space for a Riven and  + 4 extra slots for unvieled/duplicates for Trade/Utility to a weapon)

You know even it's bad enough i started the game as a Warframe and not a Operator.. Since Operators came about, I'm confused on what a Warframe actually is since Excal Umbra can move around..

Edited December 5, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

10 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

Changing Multi-Shot would change everything for the worse from what it sounds like.

Sounds like it would make the mod system more confusing than what I'm use too.

Sounds like it would destroy most Rivens  just to perk a Trade Chat back up.

If it happens I'm sure I'll lose interest in Warframe because ill have to do everything all over again.. Represents unprofessional game design.

It's bad enough i don't have Riven Capacity for every weapon in the game.. (Which each weapon should have an alotted space for a Riven and  + 4 extra slots for unvieled/duplicates for Trade/Utility to a weapon)

You know even it's bad enough i started the game as a Warframe and not a Operator.. Since Operators came about, I'm confused on what a Warframe actually is since Excal Umbra can move around..

I think it really depends on how Damage 3.0 affects armor. Armor is *almost* the sole reason anyone feels the need to have a god-roll riven (eidolon quad-caps/quin-caps, killing mobs with an Ancient Healer without having to prioritize killing the Healer, endurance runs).

Spoiler attempting to explain Warframes, Operators, & Excal Umbra.

Spoiler

Using what we know from Second Dream onward, Warframes are Infested amalgams whose consciousness & general autonomy was lobotomized to make it safe(r) for the Tenno (Operators) to control them with transference. Excal Umbra maintains autonomy because he is a Dax who was experimented on by Ballas, resulting in him being contained within a Warframe.

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

20 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Yet I can also see why other people would, if these were to replace standard multishot. It might not be great on every setup, but the Multishot idea works well with ammo mutation or Carrier (or, in theory, anything with unlimited reserve ammo) while the Scattershot thrives with any perfectly accurate weapon (bows when aiming, beam weapons - assuming it works as OP describes instead of throwing the beam all over the place like current -accuracy mods).

For Hema, it would eat health for every extra shot, given that an empty reload takes 5% of health (.08333_% for 1 bullet, but always rounds up to get at least 1 extra pip of the player's health).

Flux Rifle & Cycron might be spared (as in there are potential alternative downsides).

As I described the mechanism of reduced accuracy, any decrease in accuracy for a perfectly accurate weapon would be negligible. Yes, that's true. Not sure about bows or thrown weapons though. Depends on how far away a player wants to shoot.

Edited December 5, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Grimmstyler]

@(PS4)VagueWisdomVagueWisdom

I like using Rivens because I'm a Slasher/Shooter.. I don't depend much on my Warframe Abilities (Tho they can be stronger).

And i love the fact of changing weapon damage type dominance.

Not to mention other tweaks like Projectile Speed, Weapon recoil, etc..

Plus how can you beat a mod that has 2/3+ stats and a possible corruption?

Edited December 5, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[Tyreaus]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

As I described the mechanism of reduced accuracy, any decrease in accuracy for a perfectly accurate weapon would be negligible. Yes, that's true. Not sure about bows or thrown weapons though. Depends on how far away a player wants to shoot.

If weapons with perfect accuracy, like beam weapons, are unaffected, then bows and thrown weapons would be as well (0 spread * 1.9 = 0 spread). The way spread is done, generally speaking, is that the game draws an area and throws bullets in that area (usually with diminishing probabilities). Weapons with drop, on the other hand, do this, but also create a projectile affected by gravity. The two process are distinct, however, so it isn't like an arrow is going to start curving side-to-side as it travels further. Or, at least, it shouldn't...

(It actually kind of balances out Heavy Caliber in a way: HC has less effect on low accuracy weapons, whereas this would have less effect on high accuracy weapons, and both would be relatively comparable in terms of damage and utility...)

Personally, that's how I think it should be. The ideal with mods is that they're useful, but not universally so. We don't tend to use 4x 90% elementals on every build, or even the 120% physical mods. Giving mods particular niches, like working on certain weapons with no drawback as I mentioned, pretty much guarantees this: they may not be useful on every weapon, but they have other weapons where they are very useful and probably guaranteed in builds for those weapons. And it also works vice versa, with the mod helping boost the efficacy of those kinds of weapons compared to others.

11 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

Changing Multi-Shot would change everything for the worse from what it sounds like.

Sounds like it would make the mod system more confusing than what I'm use too.

Sounds like it would destroy most Rivens  just to perk a Trade Chat back up.

If it happens I'm sure I'll lose interest in Warframe because ill have to do everything all over again.. Represents unprofessional game design.

It's bad enough i don't have Riven Capacity for every weapon in the game.. (Which each weapon should have an alotted space for a Riven and  + 4 extra slots for unvieled/duplicates for Trade/Utility to a weapon)

You know even it's bad enough i started the game as a Warframe and not a Operator.. Since Operators came about, I'm confused on what a Warframe actually is since Excal Umbra can move around..

It doesn't make that much of an impact on the modding system - mostly because it's already quite confusing without referring to a wiki on things...

There are smart ways to make this kind of transition. For example, if they:

1. Gave everyone a Scattershot mod with the same rank as their Multishot mods, i.e. split the mod into two;
2. Made Vigilante Armaments increase the probability of any Multishot / Scattershot mod; and
3. Left the "classic" Multishot in place for Rivens until they're rerolled to phase things out smoothly

Then you have nothing to redo, except for maybe rethinking a few builds that can be min-maxed without Multishot / Scattershot. (Realistically: they'll probably be just fine without minmaxing, since Carrier can still handle ammo problems)

I'm not even sure what you're talking about with "unprofessional game design". Nerfs and buffs are par the course for any game.

Being honest, if something like this is enough to kill your interest or "destroy Rivens", then I have to question how solid either of those were in the first place...

Edited December 5, 2018 by Tyreaus

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

39 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

@(PS4)VagueWisdomVagueWisdom

I like using Rivens because I'm a Slasher/Shooter.. I don't depend much on my Warframe Abilities (Tho they can be stronger).

And i love the fact of changing weapon damage type dominance.

Not to mention other tweaks like Projectile Speed, Weapon recoil, etc..

Plus how can you beat a mod that has 2/3+ stats and a possible corruption?

Ah, you like the idea of creating non-meta builds, using rivens to offset damage loss. Sounds nice. Unfortunately for eidolon & endurance runners, they can't really afford that. It just comes back to game design.

(Personal opinion) I think level scaling games should stick to good single-player storytelling. It's just another complicating layer to balance a game around. The only multiplayer games I can think of where level scaling manages to work out are games with a NG+ feature, enemies that scale alongside the player, or an MMO that is simply large enough to satiate high level players. Just... complicating. Warframe has none of those.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

If weapons with perfect accuracy, like beam weapons, are unaffected, then bows and thrown weapons would be as well (0 spread * 1.9 = 0 spread). The way spread is done, generally speaking, is that the game draws an area and throws bullets in that area (usually with diminishing probabilities). Weapons with drop, on the other hand, do this, but also create a projectile affected by gravity. The two process are distinct, however, so it isn't like an arrow is going to start curving side-to-side as it travels further. Or, at least, it shouldn't...

(It actually kind of balances out Heavy Caliber in a way: HC has less effect on low accuracy weapons, whereas this would have less effect on high accuracy weapons, and both would be relatively comparable in terms of damage and utility...)

Personally, that's how I think it should be. The ideal with mods is that they're useful, but not universally so. We don't tend to use 4x 90% elementals on every build, or even the 120% physical mods. Giving mods particular niches, like working on certain weapons with no drawback as I mentioned, pretty much guarantees this: they may not be useful on every weapon, but they have other weapons where they are very useful and probably guaranteed in builds for those weapons. And it also works vice versa, with the mod helping boost the efficacy of those kinds of weapons compared to others.

It doesn't make that much of an impact on the modding system - mostly because it's already quite confusing without referring to a wiki on things...

There are smart ways to make this kind of transition. For example, if they:

1. Gave everyone a Scattershot mod with the same rank as their Multishot mods, i.e. split the mod into two;
2. Made Vigilante Armaments increase the probability of any Multishot / Scattershot mod; and
3. Left the "classic" Multishot in place for Rivens until they're rerolled to phase things out smoothly

Then you have nothing to redo, except for maybe rethinking a few builds that can be min-maxed without Multishot / Scattershot. (Realistically: they'll probably be just fine without minmaxing, since Carrier can still handle ammo problems)

I'm not even sure what you're talking about with "unprofessional game design". Nerfs and buffs are par the course for any game.

Being honest, if something like this is enough to kill your interest or "destroy Rivens", then I have to question how solid either of those were in the first place...

Yes, I am saying spread will increase, but perhaps not enough to hurt the player's effective range. The arrow doesn't necessarily curve, but maybe offset from center. Like it was held unsteadily or something of the sort.

Building really depends on what a player wants. Low gun accuracy doesn't matter for a player who regularly defaults to melee, even if the weapon suffers 99% overall accuracy &/or recoil. The damage/utility becomes the sole selling point as range is irrelevant. Like a melee player might actually want to use a shotgun if it can master blast up to lvl300 even if they have to hug the target, because they probably already are hugging them.

I misunderstand possibility #2. Could you explain?

I think @Grimmstyler is correct in that a change to multishot according to the OP would decrease the value of multishot. Multishot, as it stands, is a mandatory mod, & that alone makes this contentious. So we need to incorporate the other angles of this issue into our thought process, such as how I mentioned armor being a contributing factor in how players try to milk their weapons for all the damage they are worth. Even if you say that Corrosive builds, Corrosive Projection, or some other armor cutting build, nullify that problem, all that really does is jam such builds into the same position that all mandatory mods are already in (Corrosive is already super mandatory for all armored enemies).

Edited December 5, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Grimmstyler]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

If weapons with perfect accuracy, like beam weapons, are unaffected, then bows and thrown weapons would be as well (0 spread * 1.9 = 0 spread). The way spread is done, generally speaking, is that the game draws an area and throws bullets in that area (usually with diminishing probabilities). Weapons with drop, on the other hand, do this, but also create a projectile affected by gravity. The two process are distinct, however, so it isn't like an arrow is going to start curving side-to-side as it travels further. Or, at least, it shouldn't...

(It actually kind of balances out Heavy Caliber in a way: HC has less effect on low accuracy weapons, whereas this would have less effect on high accuracy weapons, and both would be relatively comparable in terms of damage and utility...)

Personally, that's how I think it should be. The ideal with mods is that they're useful, but not universally so. We don't tend to use 4x 90% elementals on every build, or even the 120% physical mods. Giving mods particular niches, like working on certain weapons with no drawback as I mentioned, pretty much guarantees this: they may not be useful on every weapon, but they have other weapons where they are very useful and probably guaranteed in builds for those weapons. And it also works vice versa, with the mod helping boost the efficacy of those kinds of weapons compared to others.

It doesn't make that much of an impact on the modding system - mostly because it's already quite confusing without referring to a wiki on things...

There are smart ways to make this kind of transition. For example, if they:

1. Gave everyone a Scattershot mod with the same rank as their Multishot mods, i.e. split the mod into two;
2. Made Vigilante Armaments increase the probability of any Multishot / Scattershot mod; and
3. Left the "classic" Multishot in place for Rivens until they're rerolled to phase things out smoothly

Then you have nothing to redo, except for maybe rethinking a few builds that can be min-maxed without Multishot / Scattershot. (Realistically: they'll probably be just fine without minmaxing, since Carrier can still handle ammo problems)

I'm not even sure what you're talking about with "unprofessional game design". Nerfs and buffs are par the course for any game.

Being honest, if something like this is enough to kill your interest or "destroy Rivens", then I have to question how solid either of those were in the first place...

Multi-Shot has been the same for a long time..

Why would DE change it now?

Why didn't DE change Multi-Shot a long time ago if there was a issue?

I've spent a lot of time getting the Rivens I have, not to mention Forma in Weapons..

To throw all that away on the whim of a change that hasn't been attended to is just pulling puppet strings.. I call it unprofessional game design.

There are a lot of complaints i have about Warframe.. When a competitive game comes around with just as good mechanics, better graphics AND... Less changes because everything is thought thru, you'll see how many people stick around for Warframe. People may figure DE as a company under development with all the changes they've done in a game after releasing a Update.

(Example Reworks PowerCreep etc)

Edited December 5, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

3 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

Multi-Shot has been the same for a long time..

Why would DE change it now?

Why didn't DE change Multi-Shot a long time ago if there was a issue?

I've spent a lot of time getting the Rivens I have, not to mention Forma in Weapons..

To throw all that away on the whim of a change that hasn't been attended to is just pulling puppet strings.. I call it unprofessional game design.

There are a lot of complaints i have about Warframe.. When a competitive game comes around with just as good mechanics, better graphics AND... Less changes because everything is thought thru, you'll see how many people stick around for Warframe. People may figure DE as a company under development with all the changes they've done in a game after releasing a Update.

(Example Reworks PowerCreep etc)

To be fair, DE is stuck in this limbo state between beta-build & final-build. They seem split between doing maintenance & releasing shiny new stuff. They need to realize that maintenance & analysis must be prioritized at this point in development.

(Personal opinion) The only truly stupid additions they've made are Rivens because of RNG & trade milking, which is a major kick to the gonads for collectors & min-maxers; the Umbral polarity because Umbral builds are too niche (being for Sentients is too niche the same way the Bane, Cleanse, Expel, & Smite mods are too niche) & will sometimes, though not always, ruin build flexibility, & players can't forma for the Umbral polarity; & the manner in which Excal Umbra was introduced.

Spoiler

I'm convinced DE only jammed Umbra into the Sacrifice quest (yes, he was jammed into there) because they were on crunch time & couldn't separate Umbra & "autonomous Dax frame" into two separate pieces of content. One shouldn't make promises they can't keep, but should at least admit that fault & extend the time instead of pressing on into a train wreck. People will either understand that pressure or they won't. Quality is usually worth waiting for.

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Yes, I am saying spread will increase, but perhaps not enough to hurt the player's effective range. The arrow doesn't necessarily curve, but maybe offset from center. Like it was held unsteadily or something of the sort.

Building really depends on what a player wants. Low gun accuracy doesn't matter for a player who regularly defaults to melee, even if the weapon suffers 99% overall accuracy &/or recoil. The damage/utility becomes the sole selling point as range is irrelevant. Like a melee player might actually want to use a shotgun if it can master blast up to lvl300 even if they have to hug the target, because they probably already are hugging them.

I misunderstand possibility #2. Could you explain?

If the offset is negligible, i.e. just about 0, then it's probably okay. I still think it might as well be 0, so there are some weapons that can use the mods "for free" and prevent them from falling into total obsolescence even if, worst case, they fall out of favour in other builds.

#2 is just part of the scheme, i.e. it'd be "Extra shot probability +60%" so that you could slot it with either a Scattershot mod or a Multishot mod and get the +60%. Again, making it sit in its own little niche.

(If that's the #2 you're talking about...)

1 hour ago, Grimmstyler said:

Multi-Shot has been the same for a long time..

Why would DE change it now?

Why didn't DE change Multi-Shot a long time ago if there was a issue?

I've spent a lot of time getting the Rivens I have, not to mention Forma in Weapons..

To throw all that away on the whim of a change that hasn't been attended to is just pulling puppet strings.. I call it unprofessional game design.

I don't know DE's collective head, but as for why they didn't change it then, I'm going to wager player outcry. They likely won't change it now for the same reason. When they should change it is when they come up with an acceptable alternative, i.e. something most players can live with that also solves the "meta mod" problem. Problem is, not only does what is or isn't acceptable change over time, coming up with new solutions doesn't just happen as soon as you want it to. That's just a limit of human engineering, and to call that "pulling puppet strings" just sounds ridiculous. It's like chastising the inventor of modern sewage systems for not coming up with it sooner.

You're also unlikely to need to reforma every single weapon from the ground up, since 1: it's one mod slot, not the entire set; 2: the mods would, ideally, work with no downsides with some weapons; 3: a vast number of other weapons would remain acceptable with one of the two mods; and 4: Rivens wouldn't change until rerolled (if at all, since Rivens IIRC aren't considered part of balancing things and they could, in theory, just be left alone). The amount of progress you're losing is far, far, far less than you seem to think.

50 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Less changes because everything is thought thru

What, exactly, is it they're not thinking through? I wager most issues you could bring up are ones where I could find a thread where half of the posters agree with the change and half disagree.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Tyreaus

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

2 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

If the offset is negligible, i.e. just about 0, then it's probably okay. I still think it might as well be 0, so there are some weapons that can use the mods "for free" and prevent them from falling into total obsolescence even if, worst case, they fall out of favour in other builds.

#2 is just part of the scheme, i.e. it'd be "Extra shot probability +60%" so that you could slot it with either a Scattershot mod or a Multishot mod and get the +60%. Again, making it sit in its own little niche.

(If that's the #2 you're talking about...)

I don't know DE's collective head, but as for why they didn't change it then, I'm going to wager player outcry. They likely won't change it now for the same reason. When they should change it is when they come up with an acceptable alternative, i.e. something most players can live with that also solves the "meta mod" problem. Problem is, not only does what is or isn't acceptable change over time, coming up with new solutions doesn't just happen as soon as you want it to. That's just a limit of human engineering, and to call that "pulling puppet strings" just sounds ridiculous. It's like chastising the inventor of modern sewage systems for not coming up with it sooner.

You're also unlikely to need to reforma every single weapon from the ground up, since 1: it's one mod slot, not the entire set; 2: the mods would, ideally, work with no downsides with some weapons; 3: a vast number of other weapons would remain acceptable with one of the two mods; and 4: Rivens wouldn't change until rerolled (if at all, since Rivens IIRC aren't considered part of balancing things and they could, in theory, just be left alone). The amount of progress you're losing is far, far, far less than you seem to think.

What, exactly, is it they're not thinking through? I wager most issues you could bring up are ones where I could find a thread where half of the posters agree with the change and half disagree.

So for scattershot, Vigilante Armaments would increase accuracy. For Split Chamber, it would make it so the spread was only +30%, not +90%. How would it affect multishot? Would it still increase accuracy like with scattershot? How would Vigilante Armaments behave on its own?

Below is more of my personal opinion, with some anecdotal evidence thrown in.

I believe you're paraphrasing my reply to Grimmstyler.

Yes, I've met many players (not a majority, but veteran players with 2+ years being part of the game) who would like DE to just do some TLC on the aging portions of the game instead of focusing on whatever open world is to come after Fortuna. Focusing on damage 3.0, fixing armor & cheese, balancing, reducing RNG.

As for what DE isn't thinking through... the fact that they allowed their crunch time to get to the point of what I described in my Spoiler speaks for itself. That the riven system was never a community unifying piece of content speaks for itself. That the introduction of Umbra further divided the community as it has is a testament to how little DE thinks of their own actions.

When adding new content, the goal is to reach a majority. When it doesn't do that, there's something wrong. When the only players that are happy are the die-hards & non-patrons, that's a problem.

This isn't to say I dislike DE. I do like them, but like normal people, some decisions irk me. I love the idea of open world, but if that means that they're going to rush themselves & reduce their quality, I can't abide.

As for why I don't like Rivens, the Umbral polarity, & Excal Umbra, I already explained it in that same quote. I have some suggestions for them (I liked Brozime's thoughts on rivens when they were still new), but honestly, I was just having a minor vent with Grimmstyler, because the guy is clearly going through an angry "I love/hate Warframe phase", & I was connecting with a "I feel ya bruh. I dislike these certain things myself". I may do a few topics about them later (or redo in the case of failed topics).

If you don't want to meet me halfway on a few points in my perspective, disagree peacefully, & use a proper counter-argument (if you really want to). Don't mock me with an inaccurate paraphrase (I'd like it if it were at least accurate because that tells me you actually read it).

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Grimmstyler]

@(PS4)VagueWisdomVagueWisdom 

@Tyreaus

Multi-Shot is basically related to Status and Damage..

Changing Multi-Shot to make a weapon weaker or less Ammo Effecient doesn't balance Warframe Ability Spam or effectiveness against higher enemy levels.

I think a better solution would come from my replies in this topic.

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

49 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

@(PS4)VagueWisdomVagueWisdom 

@Tyreaus

Multi-Shot is basically related to Status and Damage..

Changing Multi-Shot to make a weapon weaker or less Ammo Effecient doesn't balance Warframe Ability Spam or effectiveness against higher enemy levels.

I think a better solution would come from my replies in this topic.

 

I think you should quote said replies directly, because, judging by the introduction to that topic alone, I think you're being a bit too high strung.

Currently, when using multishot, status chance doesn't increase. Because status procs are calculated & occur per separate projectile, the UI reflects an increase in status chance even though the true status chance isn't actually increasing (this is a UI glitch). If a player wants to see true status chance, they need to remove all multishot mods.

Tigris Prime has 30% status chance at base, so for all 8 projectiles it fires, that 30% runs separately for all of them. Since status chance is RNG based, you can run this through the drop chance calculator. 6 runs (projectiles) gives a 90% chance that you'll get a status proc. 13 runs (projectiles) gives a 99% chance for a status proc. The UI glitch is due to the game attempting to convert to a "status chance per discharge instance", where a "discharge instance" is a trigger pull, even though it should be maintaining a "status chance per projectile".

When adding Hell's Chamber for 120% multishot, that becomes 17-18 projectiles that Tigris Prime fires. The UI should display a 99% status chance (I'll need to check in-game to be sure).

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

So for scattershot, Vigilante Armaments would increase accuracy. For Split Chamber, it would make it so the spread was only +30%, not +90%. How would it affect multishot? Would it still increase accuracy like with scattershot? How would Vigilante Armaments behave on its own?

The idea was to make it sync with other multishot / scattershot mods. I admit I don't know how to make it best work on its own - maybe default to the current, free multishot? (The alternative seems to be making Scattershot variants of every Multishot mod, which isn't bad per se, but does put VA in an odd position given it's a set mod...)

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

I believe you're paraphrasing my reply to Grimmstyler.

I might be. I don't tend to have the time to read everything: I was giving my take and if it sounded like your take, then hey, we agree on something.

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

If you don't want to meet me halfway on a few points in my perspective, disagree peacefully, & use a proper counter-argument (if you really want to). Don't mock me with an inaccurate paraphrase (I'd like it if it were at least accurate because that tells me you actually read it).

Okay, hold up there. I was replying to Grimmstyler at that point, not you, and I was talking mostly about the multishot fiasco (i.e. the point of the thread) and why these kinds of changes surrounding it may not have been implemented. Nothing to do with Rivens beyond how the changes in this thread could be done in a way that Rivens aren't affected.

The only reason I quote you both in the same post is just to keep from multi-posting (which is a no-no in communities I've been in in the past, so it's a bit of a habit).

1 hour ago, Grimmstyler said:

Multi-Shot is basically related to Status and Damage..

Changing Multi-Shot to make a weapon weaker or less Ammo Effecient doesn't balance Warframe Ability Spam or effectiveness against higher enemy levels.

Not untrue, but we should be clear on the scope and keep ideas to their scope. Tweaking multishot isn't meant to touch Warframe abilities. It is, at most, meant to balance out that mod only - maybe make it a little less mandatory with an equally viable alternative, for example. So we shouldn't expect it to be Ramirez and do everything. Likewise, we shouldn't dismiss changes just because an individual change doesn't do everything. Most solutions to many of these problems don't come in single threads, they come in packages.

Regarding your replies in that thread, I feel like some of the ideas there would be better formulated into their own discussion threads. We really shouldn't be getting too off-topic with this thread. It's meant to be about multishot mechanics and mods and how those might change, not how we might accomplish end-game in Warframe.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

23 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

The idea was to make it sync with other multishot / scattershot mods. I admit I don't know how to make it best work on its own - maybe default to the current, free multishot? (The alternative seems to be making Scattershot variants of every Multishot mod, which isn't bad per se, but does put VA in an odd position given it's a set mod...)

I might be. I don't tend to have the time to read everything: I was giving my take and if it sounded like your take, then hey, we agree on something.

Okay, hold up there. I was replying to Grimmstyler at that point, not you, and I was talking mostly about the multishot fiasco (i.e. the point of the thread) and why these kinds of changes surrounding it may not have been implemented. Nothing to do with Rivens beyond how the changes in this thread could be done in a way that Rivens aren't affected.

The only reason I quote you both in the same post is just to keep from multi-posting (which is a no-no in communities I've been in in the past, so it's a bit of a habit).

Not untrue, but we should be clear on the scope and keep ideas to their scope. Tweaking multishot isn't meant to touch Warframe abilities. It is, at most, meant to balance out that mod only - maybe make it a little less mandatory with an equally viable alternative, for example. So we shouldn't expect it to be Ramirez and do everything. Likewise, we shouldn't dismiss changes just because an individual change doesn't do everything. Most solutions to many of these problems don't come in single threads, they come in packages.

Regarding your replies in that thread, I feel like some of the ideas there would be better formulated into their own discussion threads. We really shouldn't be getting too off-topic with this thread. It's meant to be about multishot mechanics and mods and how those might change, not how we might accomplish end-game in Warframe.

I think if Vigilante Armaments were to be reworked for multishot/scattershot, it should just become flat damage (+60% damage). That way, it hurts neither bullet hoses, nor shotguns/snipers.

Sorry for confusion. In that quote, you used one of my replies & reworded it to;

Quote

Less changes because everything is thought thru

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Tyreaus]

1 minute ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

I think if Vigilante Armaments were to be reworked for multishot/scattershot, it should become flat damage (+60% damage). That way, it hurts neither bullet hoses, nor shotguns/snipers.

Hmm...extra damage would work, but it also feels kind of bland. IDK.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Sorry for confusion. In that quote, you used one of my replies & reworded it to;

</looks back to said reply>

...

Nani?!

Like, seriously, I quoted Grimmstyler. You can hit Ctrl + F and find his quote. Why did it change it to your name? o-O

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

48 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

Hmm...extra damage would work, but it also feels kind of bland. IDK.

</looks back to said reply>

...

Nani?!

Like, seriously, I quoted Grimmstyler. You can hit Ctrl + F and find his quote. Why did it change it to your name? o-O

Spooky. 

While we're talking about mandatory mods, I don't think flat damage should be removed. My convoluted idea is that DE could use a combination of changes in damage 3.0, armor 2.0, enemies 2.0, & a removal, or at least a massive reduction, of level scaling. Hard to imagine I know, since many worry about what challenge will look like with such a change. If all four of those changes are successful, we could safely nerf many of the damage mods, & make the mod system more of "one or the other, not both". Like a player would have to choose between Serration or Fanged Fusillade, but can't have both, because milking a weapon for damage shouldn't be necessary in a game with minimal to no scaling.

The overall idea behind this was using the MOBA & hero shooter ideas of player roles, such as DPS/ADC or Assassin/stealth, & inspiration from multiple videogames that have absolutely no level scaling but still manage to be difficult. I even thought about the MGS (Metal Gear Solid) series for Stealth 2.0 (or would it be 3.0?) & Levels/Environment 2.0, which would need one or two new mechanics to work out.

I'm very close to a "max nut" on this game. I know only 2 other players (besides the streamers) who are *possibly* more into Warframe than me, & 1 who is so into the game he no-lifes it (I'm not willing to top that).

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Tyreaus]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

While we're talking about mandatory mods, I don't think flat damage should be removed. [snip]

TBF, I think the only mod aside from multishot that's really that mandatory is the Serration family. Unfortunately, even with the idea of removing enemy scaling and reworking other things to accommodate that (which would be interesting and I'd like to see more details), the goal is to kill as many things as fast as possible. Up until people can one-shot everything, damage helps accomplish that. And flat damage mods like Serration are really good at boosting damage.

That said, giving a similar treatment as this thread to the Serration family could be one possible solution. E.g., two mods, both increasing damage across the board, but one increases physical damage more and the other focuses on elemental damage. Not that your idea wouldn't work or is bad, but a split like that could be an effective change in the interim.

Spitballing on that one, though. I've come up with more than enough dumb ideas in my short time on these forums lol.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Tyreaus