Rivens need to be revisited!

[Orgoon]

18 minutes ago, Marakai said:

Also if you take a look at most people defending rivens or being against "stat lock" or anything that would make them more accesable for newer players- those are in 99% players who sit in trade chat whole day and have thousands on plat and not play the game but trade and market only. For them any sort of "fix" to rivens is a no go because now they are wealthy (Though they have nothing more to spend on) and won't accept that some average Joe who has only 400h in game could have good riven without paying thousands plat for it in first place. Only he, veteran with 5k hours can have godly riven.

Sadly rivens are cancer of this game and when I look at the game and imagine it without rivens- it would be better experience overall for everyone. Good riven is really only really obtainable via platinum, not really by gameplay. Even most rare mods like Maiming Strike or Arcance Grace can be droped by PLAYING game and they are not RNG (their stats). Rivens being RNG imo messed up whole end-game and economy of warframe. 

The core concept of warframe was "everything can be obtained by playing the game. You don't have to spend a $ or play market for anything". Well, say that to Multishot, damage, status and negative zoom riven for Zarr or Sobek. Show me how you can obtain that by playing a game.

Just my opinion. Rivens are cancer.

I hope that you're aware that rivens are not actually needed to play the game and that Hek is capable of killing everything that this game can throw at you?

[Marakai]

9 minutes ago, Orgoon said:

I hope that you're aware that rivens are not actually needed to play the game and that Hek is capable of killing everything that this game can throw at you?

Of course but adding yet another messed RNG content locked from new players even harder than "season/event locked" mods or vaulted prime blueprints is not a good way to keep WF alive in long run. WF is already a super bad designed experience for new players.

I would have nothing against rivens if they were not RNG based because that makes them pure market-ponies and you can't just "work" your way to get riven you want because it's RNG.
 

Rivens are not bad idea by themselfs. But they should have been locked behind some challanging content and not being RNG-based so you can actually get them. RNG rolls are never good idea, especially in game in which you can trade them for premium currency.

Imo they should either make them untradable or get rid of their RNG/randomnes. Right now they are in my opinion bad designed and only further alienate new player base.

Not to mention it's because of them being tradable you have so many 3rd party sites where people sell them for reall life money. This should be something for DE to avoid, not encouraging it with the design behind them.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Marakai

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

18 hours ago, Reaver_X said:

 

Diablo lets you lock in 1 stat, and its STILL hard to get an absolutely perfect piece of gear. i don't think doing the same here would be that much different.

1

DE has already said no way never happen as it would break the game to this so why even bring it up

[Reaver_X]

28 minutes ago, (PS4)Cargan2016 said:

DE has already said no way never happen as it would break the game to this so why even bring it up

except it wouldnt

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

at most I see them doing those small nerf/buff to rivens they did recently a lot more often to raise or lower the riven dispo up half a pip or down half a pip b4 I see them ever removing them or letting you lock in a stat. Which will slowly nerf some weapons into dispo 1 and some up to 5.

DE scott has said b4 on a dev stream and most recently in a interview with TP that he strongly against and quite a few of the studio it seems are also very against locking in stats.

[Orgoon]

2 hours ago, Marakai said:

Of course but adding yet another messed RNG content locked from new players even harder than "season/event locked" mods or vaulted prime blueprints is not a good way to keep WF alive in long run. WF is already a super bad designed experience for new players.

I would have nothing against rivens if they were not RNG based because that makes them pure market-ponies and you can't just "work" your way to get riven you want because it's RNG.
 

Rivens are not bad idea by themselfs. But they should have been locked behind some challanging content and not being RNG-based so you can actually get them. RNG rolls are never good idea, especially in game in which you can trade them for premium currency.

Imo they should either make them untradable or get rid of their RNG/randomnes. Right now they are in my opinion bad designed and only further alienate new player base.

Not to mention it's because of them being tradable you have so many 3rd party sites where people sell them for reall life money. This should be something for DE to avoid, not encouraging it with the design behind them.

WF is completely catered for new players, it's us veterans that don't have much to do and rivens are one of rare, nice time sinks for us. I already leveled almost all frames and weapons. If you're complaining about RNG, maybe you're playing a wrong game, because everything in this game is based on RNG.

[loroku]

I feel for the OP, I really do.  Kuva farming feels like a pretty terrible grind right now, since it takes forever and at the end of the day it's just gambling - you can't slowly build up anything over time, unlike most of the rest of this game.  There's nothing like doing 6 missions in a row - all of which take twice as long as regular missions since you have to do an objective AND do the kuva farm - just to get ONE shot at rerolling - and then come up with nothing.  It's disheartening, dispiriting, and frustrating - and it feels like in order to make high-level content more accessible, you really need a good riven.  (I'm not saying it's required - but the better your weapon, the more forgiving the game is, period.)

I'd estimate that 99% of all rivens out there have no value based on the item they boost alone.  Most people don't want rivens for weapons they never/nearly never use.  So even finding a riven for a weapon that you actually want is rough.  Then on top of that, the reason top-tier rivens can sell for 1000p+ (even for meh weapons) is because no one wants to grind out the ~350k kuva you need to reroll the stupid thing 100 times just for a chance to get stats that aren't awful.  500+ non-flood missions... for a chance to make one good riven.  Gambling worries aside, obviously this is designed to be end-game content for vets who scoff at "only" 500 missions.  But then rivens are handed out left and right so even newer players start to get caught up in them and get enticed.  And then they hit the kuva farm wall...  And then they come here and post about how frustrating this is.

Personally, I think if they wanted to make rivens better they'd have to either make them more accessible, or way less accessible.  Stat locking, making kuva a resource you can get anywhere like endo, all these ideas are effectively the same:  reducing the grind.  Or, on the other hand, you could make it way harder - so hard that it's clear you can't even grind for rivens unless you're end-game.  So they could make rivens rewards for tier-3 eidolons like the good arcanes, or make them rare rewards from sorties instead of common.  It's already so hard to unlock and reroll a riven, why not make them harder to get as well, so that even mediocre rivens would have value, and new players wouldn't get enticed into attempting end-game content and hit the wall.  (They've tried to make them more valuable with the disposition system, but that doesn't seem to have a big effect on the playerbase.  People still think:  I need the best weapon, and it needs a good riven.)

Either way, my cynical side thinks there's no incentive to change:  partially because it's easier, but also because rivens seem like a cash cow.  You have to pay plat to store them, and the grind is so over-the-top people will pay plat to buy them.  Rivens in the game are cash in DE's pocket!  🙂

[loroku]

Elaborating on my above post just a little:  I feel like 90% of the stuff people complain about in this game is because the game is so huge, most people aren't playing the same game.  Someone with 2000 hours thinks rivens are great.  Someone with 100 hours thinks they're horrible.  They're both right.

Of course, the insane amount of content in this game is what makes it so much fun.  But it's almost like we need separate tiers of forums or suggestion areas or something because vets and newbies are effectively not even talking about the same game.  It's a radically different experience - to the point that people aren't even able to understand perspectives they used to have, because it was so long ago.

I can't even imagine how hard it is to balance those concerns.

 

For example:  there are vets who probably don't understand that you get rivens pretty early now.  You can be MR 5 and have a few rivens.  If you've been playing for years before rivens were invented, then they came along at a good time.  But handing them out to new players?  Rough.

Edited December 6, 2018 by loroku

[IIDMOII]

Rivens are terrible. I have no intention of even trying.

If content ever gets balanced around this lazy rng resource sink, say bye bye. Farming Kuva is like pulling teeth let alone the rng involved in getting a good one to begin with. If I get one with an absurd unlock requirement it gets vendored immediately. Could have been a good one too. Oh well my time is more valuable.

The entire system exists for the sole purpose of extracting more platinum sales from high level players who have everything. It's existence is practically see through its so obvious. 

It has no positives. Only negatives on game play and balance. 

 

 

 

[Marakai]

2 hours ago, Orgoon said:

WF is completely catered for new players, it's us veterans that don't have much to do and rivens are one of rare, nice time sinks for us. I already leveled almost all frames and weapons. If you're complaining about RNG, maybe you're playing a wrong game, because everything in this game is based on RNG.

There was nothing standing against (apart from effort) introducing a time sink that is for vets, but at some point is achievable by new players and it's not RNG. A challanging content that rewards skill/coordination, not only how much no-life one have and is willing to give to reroll one mod 100 times. If you think rerolling a same mod 100times, doing everyday Kuva 100 times and so every day is NICE time sink- I don't know what to tell you.

I don't complain about RNG, I complain about too much RNG. For example getting some blueprints/mods is RNG, correct? But once I have them- they are not, I have them, I can use them, they are best and only one version. Bounties rewards are RNG but only what you get- not reward itself.

Rivens are not only RNG to get, it's also RNG to RNG to RNG to MAYBE have enough RNG to get stats that make this riven good.

It's lazy, stupid, rushed design introduced in game because vets were crying that they have nothing to do. And I understand them, they needed something.

But what DE did is lazy and made game worse overall. They should have at least design whole riven mechanic better.

When you introduce desperately new content just to shut up people and your only idea of "how we make people waste more time so they feel they have something to do" is "let's give them more RNG on top of RNG" is the laziest thing all developers do in their games. RNG is laziest way to introduce time/resource sink. You do it when you have no better idea.

I say- let people use resources (A LOT) to roll each stat on riven seperately and lock that stat. This way at least you can work on one riven, lock one stat and work on other two stats. This gives less RNG and more something toward "I grind for something" instead of "I pray for something". You still grind and farm but at least you know you are going somewhere. There is nothing worse where you have riven with 2 perfect rolls, but one bad and you reroll it and have 3 bad now- that is not nice time sink- that is idiotic design.

 

 

4 minutes ago, IIDMOII said:

The entire system exists for the sole purpose of extracting more platinum sales from high level players who have everything. It's existence is practically see through its so obvious. 

 

 

 

 

Yup, this too. DE couldn't balance their economy allowing for way too many things to be:

1. Tradable

2. Being event/timed locked and so skyrocketing their prices on market- which created a lot of players sitting at thousands of plat that have no reason to spend a dime anymore on game.

And rivens were probably worst idea to try to balance that because it hit all players, not only those with thousands of plat.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Marakai

[PoisonHD]

Honestly, it must be sad to be a pessimist and assume the worst out of anything.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

4 hours ago, Reaver_X said:

except it wouldnt

Not according to DE themselves when that exact question was put to them during the Q&A by TackticalPotato  He said Rivens where borderline game breaking as they where and the ability to lock out the unwanted stat like that would make them just that gamebreaking

 

at 15:55-18:00 is actually de statement on this  it wasnt just his opinion on it he flat out said it was a general consensus for DE every time some one new bringd the idea or similar idea up 

Edited December 6, 2018 by (PS4)Cargan2016

[Orgoon]

2 hours ago, loroku said:

For example:  there are vets who probably don't understand that you get rivens pretty early now.  You can be MR 5 and have a few rivens.  If you've been playing for years before rivens were invented, then they came along at a good time.  But handing them out to new players?  Rough.

The lowest MR requirement for rivens is 8, not 5.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

2 minutes ago, Orgoon said:

The lowest MR requirement for rivens is 8, not 5.

that is lowest mr to use and trade them not to obtain them my fiance is MR 5 and has 2-3 rivens but cant use or trade them away

[Ex-Rated]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Cargan2016 said:

that is lowest mr to use and trade them not to obtain them my fiance is MR 5 and has 2-3 rivens but cant use or trade them away

r u sure u cant trade? ;o i know we cant use at mr5. but not sure that u cant trade.

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

Just now, TheNytmare said:

r u sure u cant trade? ;o i know we cant use at mr5. but not sure that u cant trade.

yes quite sure ive tried to trade them over to my account at MR25 for ease of unlocking them for her and it wouldnt allow her to put them up in the trade window

[.Re-light.]

23 hours ago, trst said:

Then what becomes the point of Rivens besides making them a +damage,multishot,elemental damage/crit stats -negligible stat mod for every weapon?

If it was easy to get this mod then Warframe's progression grinds to a halt once you reach the "Riven wall" where you need to do nothing but farm Rivens and Kuva until you get the weapon Riven you want and still rng the stats out. This 'Riven wall" does not exist currently but it'll need to if Riven mods become this easy.

I'm not saying that they don't need changes at all but that stat locking is not the change they need currently.

Yup, only thing I would change is make them a bit cheaper to roll pass 7 or 8 rolls. Whole kuva flood on a booster + another kuva mission just for one roll is crazy, It's the reason I try to buy as many as possible of rivens of the weapon I want to trick out, for as little plat as possible..

   Just so that I could endo them without much remorse once 9/10 times I don't even get something to upgrade what I already have.

 

   If we get stat locking, it would need to be something crazy. Let's say 100-200k kuva per stat seems reasonable to me.. It would still make for a flood of near perfect rivens, but knowing days of farming kuva went into every single one of them, they would keep their price somewhat still..

 

 

[Aluzhun]

People against rivens want everyone to go back to using the standard cookie-cutter crit / status builds on every weapon where you essentially have one empty slot for a utility mod (if you're lucky).

You can already one-shot most enemies in the game without a riven but *gasp* heaven forbid you be allowed to see a slightly higher number appear on your screen when you use a riven to one-shot the same enemy!

[z3us32610]

23 hours ago, Reaver_X said:

TBH i think this is the biggest off put to the riven system for me, i rarely get involved with it, due to both how hard it is to roll a riven with good stats and how expensive it can get to get a riven with the right stats.  

I'm not sure how much experience you have with rivens, but I have 33 that I've acquired all from sorties except 3 (I dissolved 4 crappy ones). I've also been playing for about 8 months. All of the rivens I use (which is more than half) have really good stats as well as the right stats. It is not difficult at all to roll a riven into good stats, even really good stats. But if you are shooting for perfect stats, a god roll, then yes, that takes time. I have maybe 1 or 2 rivens that are perfect. All the others are really good and give a significant boost to the weapons they are for.

So it is all a matter of what you expect. If you expect a god roll on every riven you get, then yes, you will be disappointed. But I believe that is a unrealistic expectation. If you find a roll that has really good stats and use that, then you're likely to enjoy them more. You can always come back and reroll it to try and improve it. This is how I utilize tje riven system and I really enjoy it. 

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

5 minutes ago, Aluzhun said:

People against rivens want everyone to go back to using the standard cookie-cutter crit / status builds on every weapon where you essentially have one empty slot for a utility mod (if you're lucky).

You can already one-shot most enemies in the game without a riven but *gasp* heaven forbid you be allowed to see a slightly higher number appear on your screen when you use a riven to one-shot the same enemy!

personally im not against rivens but the market has gotten out of control and even the best ones are not worth a fraction of what is being charged for them anymore

[.Re-light.]

18 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Problem is the power creep it caused. Now most +stat mods BUT a Riven are worthless. That invalidates most of the mods out there, which honestly is taking up too much space as it is (especially if you add the Riven count to it). Hope DE revisits mods as it's a shame seeing the rare one stat mods being transmute fodder.

Oh please, if you find some rare weapon mods as fodder, it's usually because they are.

Power creep is here with rivens or without, by simple fact that every new shiny needs to be just a tad better for people to want it. Removing rivens is what would make my type of vet leave warframe for good. Rivens brought new life into this game for a lot of us.

Dunno what is wrong with people.. try some, don't just complain. You don't need perfect stats on a riven to make it very, very good. Some with just pure QOL stats make for a totally different feel to old weapons, which might make you use them to great enjoyment.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 minute ago, .Re-light. said:

Oh please, if you find some rare weapon mods as fodder, it's usually because they are.

Power creep is here with rivens or without, by simple fact that every new shiny needs to be just a tad better for people to want it. Removing rivens is what would make my type of vet leave warframe for good. Rivens brought new life into this game for a lot of us.

Dunno what is wrong with people.. try some, don't just complain. You don't need perfect stats on a riven to make it very, very good. Some with just pure QOL stats make for a totally different feel to old weapons, which might make you use them to great enjoyment.

Rivens aren't a "tad" better, it's in a league of it's own. Not just 2 stats. Not 1 postive and 1 negative stats (ever wonder why Nightmare modes aren't played now???).

It can be 3 positive stats and 1 negative. It takes the place of *2* mod slots worth of stats.

THAT's the definition of power creep.

[.Re-light.]

1 minute ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Rivens aren't a "tad" better, it's in a league of it's own. Not just 2 stats. Not 1 postive and 1 negative stats (ever wonder why Nightmare modes aren't played now???).

It can be 3 positive stats and 1 negative. It takes the place of *2* mod slots worth of stats.

THAT's the definition of power creep.

Again, your point being?

We came a long way from Hind to Tiberon Prime, did we not?

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

4 minutes ago, .Re-light. said:

Again, your point being?

We came a long way from Hind to Tiberon Prime, did we not?

Not as long as Nightmare mods to Rivens!

When I left in 2016, Umbral mods was the latest and greatest. Nightmare mods were still attractive because of how few primed mods existed (people were still farming the void for drops for frames and gear, too).

Now? Umbral mods are the Nightmare tier, and Rivens are the new Umbral. That's called POWER CREEP.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Kevyne_Kicklighter

[.Re-light.]

Let's say rivens don't exist.

    I am all ears to hear how do you make the next new weapon desirable? Your idea is to make side grades from here to kingdom come or what?