if stalker mode cannot be opt out.

[Fireclaymore]

16 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

It's pretty simple, you are coming from the position that "PvP is ok if done 'right'" therefor...

That is not a universal position.

Please just accept that there are players for whom that is not true, where even the threat of random PvP is enough to destroy their enjoyment of the game. People who have been enjoying this game for, years, people who were founders. Who would not have founded the game if this were a forced part of it.

The details of the "game mode" are irrelevant the outcomes are irrelevant, there is no compromise save not forcing PvP on players that don't want to engage in it.

Which (we now know) is what's going to happen, this mode will be opt-in.

You're right, it just takes someone pointing it out for me to see that. I was only thinking about how to make it work and not about keeping in mind how to allow players to keep themselves to a purely PVE experience alongside it. I want people to have fun in the game and customize that experience. So yeah, thanks for that.

I guess I'm on the opt-in side now lol. It's a better implementation... if done right 😄

Edited December 8, 2018 by Fireclaymore

[Falconer777]

Interestingly, if in the rewards for killing a Stalker player, add the full warframe of the Stalker, with a pretty good chance of falling, would not such an award increase the interes of the community (I mean PvE) to this regime?)

And add a good interesting cinematic quest about the Stalker, revealing his secret. Who he is, why he hates Tenno, can we agree with him, etc.
Dream!)
For this, I would even return to the game)

[Fireclaymore]

I don't like the idea of gating an entire warframe behind this mode.

[Falconer777]

1 минуту назад, Fireclaymore сказал:

I don't like the idea of gating an entire warframe behind this mode.

Why? This is in principle the logical continuation of his loot) Fear, Hate, Despair, War ... and boom - Stalker himself)

[EmberStar]

3 minutes ago, Falconer777 said:

Interestingly, if in the rewards for killing a Stalker player, add the full warframe of the Stalker, with a pretty good chance of falling, would not such an award increase the interes of the community (I mean PvE) to this regime?)

And add a good interesting cinematic quest about the Stalker, revealing his secret. Who he is, why he hates Tenno, can we agree with him, etc.
Dream!)
For this, I would even return to the game)

I sill won't PVP.  I *would* resent the hell out of the devs for locking a Warframe behind a PVP gate.  If they added a "Be the Stalker" bundle I'd probably end up buying my way around it, but doing that would *seriously* piss off people.  Because they'd rightfully see it as pay-gating a Warframe in a way that Relics do not.

What I mean is, that if you get Relics you can unlock a prime in whatever kind of Fissure mission appeals to you.  If you're willing to wait, you can do it with just Defense, or Survival, or Intercept, or whatever your favorite (or least despised) of the normal mission types happens to be.  If they lock Stalkerframe behind "play PVP or pay money," it will not end well.

Think about the PVP Winter event.  Really think about how it played out.  There were only cosmetic items, but you had to PVP to get them.  What happened?  PVE players filled the forums with posts about what a **** move it was to lock something they wanted behind a mode they didn't want to play.  PVP players filled the forums with complaints about "leechers" who swarmed PVP missions, let themselves get killed instantly, and then just laid there dead until the timer ticked down, only to pop up at the last moment and run to extraction (or whatever it takes to not be flagged as AFK at the end of the mission.)

If they put Stalkerframe in as a PVP reward, NO ONE will like how it turns out.

[SilentMobius]

Just now, EmberStar said:

Think about the PVP Winter event.  Really think about how it played out.  There were only cosmetic items, but you had to PVP to get them.  What happened?  PVE players filled the forums with posts about what a **** move it was to lock something they wanted behind a mode they didn't want to play.  PVP players filled the forums with complaints about "leechers" who swarmed PVP missions, let themselves get killed instantly, and then just laid there dead until the timer ticked down, only to pop up at the last moment and run to extraction (or whatever it takes to not be flagged as AFK at the end of the mission.)

If they put Stalkerframe in as a PVP reward, NO ONE will like how it turns out.

This right here. We already know how the community would react to PvP only rewards that have any effect at all on the PvE game... really really badly.

This was over a tick on the stratos emblem! What do you think it would be like for something as important as a Warframe?

[Falconer777]

3 минуты назад, EmberStar сказал:

I sill won't PVP. 

I already understood that you personally will never PvP under any circumstances, because you absolutely hate this mode) 
I mean players who are not so categorical. Who just don't like PvP. Do not "hated"  - just "do not loved."

Цитата

Think about the PVP Winter event.  Really think about how it played out.  There were only cosmetic items, but you had to PVP to get them.  What happened?  PVE players filled the forums with posts about what a **** move it was to lock something they wanted behind a mode they didn't want to play.  PVP players filled the forums with complaints about "leechers" who swarmed PVP missions, let themselves get killed instantly, and then just laid there dead until the timer ticked down, only to pop up at the last moment and run to extraction (or whatever it takes to not be flagged as AFK at the end of the mission.)

I did not participate in this event, did not see it (I just did not play then), but one question - was this event in the Conclave? Because if it was in the Conclave, I fully understand the failure of the event. I myself do not like the Conclave. His gameplay ... to say the least not the best gameplay.
And here we are talking about a small skirmish with one player.
Which is much softer than the Conclave version.

[Falconer777]

I wanted to make another point.
In my opinion, all the warframes that were this year (and which we saw in the design) are just boring, faceless, and not have a story. They repeat the ability of existing warframes, just in other combinations. All but Umbra, of course, who has an excellent quest, a personality, he is beautifully made and his abilities, though not original, but enjoyable)
And this is not even just my opinion - this is often written on this forum, and in the comments on youtube and reddit.
This is not surprising - it is very difficult to create something new when we already have 58 (!) Warframes, including prime versions.
While Stalker is a really interesting warframe.
Of course, if the entire community would also be categorically against receiving it in Stalker mode, ok, then it would just be limited to a quest to get it. 
That is, in any case, enter it into the game.

[SilentMobius]

25 minutes ago, Falconer777 said:

I did not participate in this event, did not see it (I just did not play then), but one question - was this event in the Conclave? Because if it was in the Conclave, I fully understand the failure of the event. I myself do not like the Conclave. His gameplay ... to say the least not the best gameplay.
And here we are talking about a small skirmish with one player.
Which is much softer than the Conclave version.

No, it was a presented as a tactical alert-front-and-center on the console with Tenno throwing snowballs at each other and knocking each other over with candy canes, it was a forced level playing field in HP and movement and no powers, rewards were some cosmetics and a catalyst. It doesn't get much "softer"

People hated it, complained loudly and it's tactical alert status was removed.

That's how Warframe players, in general, feel about PvP.

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by SilentMobius

[Falconer777]

1 минуту назад, SilentMobius сказал:

No, it was a presented as a tactical alert-front-and-center on the console with Tenno throwing snowballs at each other and knocking each other over with candy canes, it was a forced level playing field in HP and movement and no powers, rewards were some cosmetics and a catalyst. It doesn't get much "softer"

People hated it, complained loudly and it's tactical alert status was removed.

That's how Warframe players, in general, feel about PvP.

 

They threw snowballs ...
For a little makeup ... and hated.
I find it hard to understand)) It's boring, but what is there to hate?)
But ok, thanks for the information anyway.

[Fireclaymore]

I think that DE tries to foster good will with its playerbase for the most part. So "forcing" people into a situation of PVP in a predominantly PVE game can have more backlash than necessary. Especially if like EmberStar said, they make him available for purchase, then people would already be assured to protest and complain en masse. I myself said I'd prefer this feature to be seamless. Chucking a lore related frame in there is cool in theory, but does not accomplish this.

[SilentMobius]

1 minute ago, Falconer777 said:

They threw snowballs ...
For a little makeup ... and hated.
I find it hard to understand)) It's boring, but what is there to hate?)
But ok, thanks for the information anyway.

It was PvP, injected into a holiday event that contributed to a sigil that a lot of people have a "Gotta catch them all" mentality on.

Lots of people don't want PvP in their PvE experience, period.

I get that you don't share that opinion, but it's far from a rare opinion here. Many people play this game because on the lack of PvP focus

[Falconer777]

9 минут назад, Fireclaymore сказал:

I think that DE tries to foster good will with its playerbase for the most part. So "forcing" people into a situation of PVP in a predominantly PVE game can have more backlash than necessary. Especially if like EmberStar said, they make him available for purchase, then people would already be assured to protest and complain en masse. I myself said I'd prefer this feature to be seamless. Chucking a lore related frame in there is cool in theory, but does not accomplish this.

But we are considering a voluntary version of the Stalker-player regime. After all, if 58 warframes are available in PvE, why not make one available in PvP ...
This, of course, in my opinion. If the whole community is totally against, then just through the quest)

[SilentMobius]

7 minutes ago, Falconer777 said:

But we are considering a voluntary version of the Stalker-player regime. After all, if 58 warframes are available in PvE, why not make one available in PvP ...
This, of course, in my opinion. If the whole community is totally against, then just through the quest)

Because Warframes are the main, and most important, gear item in this game, also they give mastery which is a unique resource and the primary progress metric.

It like suddenly having a specific bit of PvE "Level XP" locked behind PvP in an MMO that launched 5 years ago without PvP

Edited December 8, 2018 by SilentMobius

[Fireclaymore]

I can only imagine how adding this would have gone down back when I started. It almost feels like something they'd throw in the more I think of it. Like how movement got upended as they changed coptering to bullet jumps into far-reaching aerial melee, into the current version we have now. And then focus lol.

They've developed a specific kind of gameplay and business model. At this point I don't know how much they're willing to risk that on a somewhat throw-away game type. I'd love for it to add some more flavor to the game and have greater longevity than defection, salvage, archwing, and lunaro, but it should not come at the cost of goodwill in the community.

[Falconer777]

12 минут назад, SilentMobius сказал:

It was PvP, injected into a holiday event that contributed to a sigil that a lot of people have a "Gotta catch them all" mentality on.

Lots of people don't want PvP in their PvE experience, period.

I get that you don't share that opinion, but it's far from a rare opinion here. Many people play this game because on the lack of PvP focus

Clear.
This is not unique, in Guild Wars 2, for example, the same state of affairs. Part of the community plays only PvE, part - only PvP, part combines both modes. However, there is unique armor for these modes, and in principle, no one is particularly indignant that PvP players cannot get PvE armor from raids, and PvE players - armor from spvp and WvW. Somehow calmly get along with each other)
Maybe this is because there, from the very beginning, the ratio of PvE and PvP was approximately equal.

[Falconer777]

7 минут назад, SilentMobius сказал:

Because Warframes are the main, and most important, gear item in this game, also they give mastery which is a unique resource and the primary progress metric.

It like suddenly having a specific bit of PvE "Level XP" locked behind PvP in an MMO that launched 5 years ago without PvP

I understand your point of view.
I can not say that I agree with her, but I understand)

[Falconer777]

9 минут назад, Fireclaymore сказал:

I can only imagine how adding this would have gone down back when I started. It almost feels like something they'd throw in the more I think of it. Like how movement got upended as they changed coptering to bullet jumps into far-reaching aerial melee, into the current version we have now. And then focus lol.

They've developed a specific kind of gameplay and business model. At this point I don't know how much they're willing to risk that on a somewhat throw-away game type. I'd love for it to add some more flavor to the game and have greater longevity than defection, salvage, archwing, and lunaro, but it should not come at the cost of goodwill in the community.

They often take risks and experiments.
Of course, I would like this to happen without forcing part of the players.

[SilentMobius]

25 minutes ago, Fireclaymore said:

I'd love for it to add some more flavor to the game and have greater longevity than defection, salvage, archwing, and lunaro, but it should not come at the cost of goodwill in the community.

Here's an example that I like on non PvP "Player created content":

• Syndicate rep can now purchase themed decorations for the Orbiter/Dojo that are functional devices from the Syndicate theme in question (Mostly reusing existing assets)
• When you reach top syndicate tier you get mission that all take place on a suitable random (but never changing) map that features a bare bones settlement with a random name at one end allied with the syndicate, you do some mission from there that endear the settlement to you
• These cosmetics all become Buff/defense items for the settlement and you get to deploy and design them like the Dojo. Have basic moderation available for problematic attempts at design
• When big enough you can submit them to allow random other players who support rival syndicates to attack them as a PvE mission against syndicate forces on your designed map and defenses. Damage is not echoed back into the map
• Both participants get syndicate rewards for their participation.
• DE get endless volumes of map design for free.

 

[MystMan]

13 minutes ago, Falconer777 said:

Maybe this is because there, from the very beginning, the ratio of PvE and PvP was approximately equal.

Not maybe, it is 100% certainty as to why other games that have pve/pvp do it well, and why people often bring them up as an example of "why it can work"

They were built from the ground up with the pve/pvp formula in mind. It was already part of the primary design blueprint when the game was just an idea.

There are no balancing issues or content favoring or locking out one group over the other when done well.

This does not apply to games like this one that attach a new genre years later as an add-on like a new thing. Incompatibility and hindsight issues will arise and then devs will be forced to juggle that mess for a long time, which is more trouble than it's worth. In the end, all games that do this, will end up at best with a mediocre ho-hum addition that is quickly forgotten and played by few   or    at worst dividing and driving force that keeps enough people away to kill a game.

The players who want this mode, I wonder why/how they seem to believe this will be a great thing to add. When I look at DE's track record of pvp design, I see.... not good things. The writing's on the wall, if you want great pvp experience, you're not going to get it if DE makes it. Other developers simply do it better. There's no such thing as "fourth time's the charm."

I'm not trying to maliciously dunk on DE here, I'm just saying it like I see it.  DE does great work designing PVE, they should stick to that. I will play their PVE games till the end of time.

 

While Gunz may no longer be officially supported anymore, it does have a community server, you'll get a better fleshed out experience there instead of waiting all these years here in Warframe hoping for a good pvp experience that will never happen. It's like people playing unfinished Early Access games they are not enjoying but stick around for years hoping for its "great potential" to reveal itself (which never happens). I advice to stop wasting years of your lives doing that and just go straight to games which offer directly what you want in a finished state. If you don't know such games, simply ask around. Somebody might surprise you and show you a game you never heard of but offers exactly what you want. Just keep your expectations on a realistic level, some people have such unrealistic fantasy-like expectations that every game out there disappoints them. These are lost causes and shouldn't be lent our ears.

 

Oh, before somebody inadvertently tries to bring up Unreal Tournament and UT2003 as a counter-argument:

UT has always been Epic Games' brainchild, it's their IP, their baby. They designed the core of the game and everything that made it great.  DE's involvement was to design some weapons, maps and textures. That's it. So to say they have pvp experience because they were involved with UT is flat-out wrong. From UT 3 and up, DE was never involved anymore. From that point Epic became big enough to continue on its own without help.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

Just to say it real quick.

I'd personally prefer a cinematic quest where we pursue Stalker & like with Umbra we join with him.

I guess in Stalker's case it might be one where we show him our side of the end of the Orokin, where we also take responsibility for our actions & thus soothe his pain, quell his rage, & forgive his hate.

We bring him peace & thus he joins us finally.

If he is indeed a Warframe with no Tenno (he could be like Umbra, which is that he might be an Orokin or Dax or a Soldier that was below the Dax ranks) then he could be like Umbra & be active when we're not in Transference with him.

Either way. I'd like a deep, moving, & High Quality Quest that unlocks him as a Warframe once & for all.

[SilentMobius]

17 minutes ago, MystMan said:

The players who want this mode, I wonder why/how they seem to believe this will be a great thing to add. When I look at DE's track record of pvp design, I see.... not good things. The writing's on the wall, if you want great pvp experience, you're not going to get it if DE makes it. Other developers simply do it better. There's no such thing as "fourth time's the charm."

I think this is a little overly harsh and I think you're dismissing the amount of involvement DE had with UT (I've seen some interviews on the topic and they did a lot of key design work). i think it's more about current chosen work style than inability.

However, that was when DE were a build-test-ship-stop shop. they could do that again, but it would be a big change. Currently they have said they believe that iterating fast and breaking thing is the only way to keep their F2P game afloat, and that is conducive to an expansive, rambling, epic, involved PvE experience, but very much not to a fair, balanced, tight PvP experience.

Edited December 8, 2018 by SilentMobius

[MystMan]

1 minute ago, SilentMobius said:

I think the is overly harsh and I think you're dismissing the amount of involvement DE had with UT (I've seen some interviews on the topic and they did a lot of key design work).

Ok, I'll take that.  But UT and UT2003 are over 15 years old.  Who is to say that the involved people employed in DE at that time are still here?  And if they are still here, they must be clearly working on other projects. Because after all the pvp attempts (including Amazing Eternals), I wouldn't bet on a good pvp content coming from DE anymore.  At first it's admiring that they try again after the first failures, but now it's just getting desperate that they need to go as far to push it onto their PVE content. 

If it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be.
 

[Falconer777]

6 минут назад, (PS4)Zero_029 сказал:

Just to say it real quick.

I'd personally prefer a cinematic quest where we pursue Stalker & like with Umbra we join with him.

Yes, such a beginning of the quest simply suggests itself)

Цитата

I guess in Stalker's case it might be one where we show him our side of the end of the Orokin, where we also take responsibility for our actions & thus soothe his pain, quell his rage, & forgive his hate.

We bring him peace & thus he joins us finally.

Yes, this is an option.
But another development is also possible)
A Stalker can reveal to us completely of the Tenno side, 
to reveal to us a certain truth from the past, which we have forgotten (or which has been erased from our memory by Natah).
And then we will have to reconsider something in our views and curb our hatred)
 

Цитата

If he is indeed a Warframe with no Tenno (he could be like Umbra, which is that he might be an Orokin or Dax or a Soldier that was below the Dax ranks) then he could be like Umbra & be active when we're not in Transference with him.

I agree.
And if he is Tenno himself, he can simply share with us a blueprint of the warframe.

Цитата

Either way. I'd like a deep, moving, & High Quality Quest that unlocks him as a Warframe once & for all.

Yes. He is one of the central, and most mysterious characters in the game, and definitely deserves his quest!

[SilentMobius]

17 minutes ago, MystMan said:

Ok, I'll take that.  But UT and UT2003 are over 15 years old.  Who is to say that the involved people employed in DE at that time are still here? 

It was DE Steve, that I'm referring to.

17 minutes ago, MystMan said:

And if they are still here, they must be clearly working on other projects. Because after all the pvp attempts (including Amazing Eternals), I wouldn't bet on a good pvp content coming from DE anymore.  At first it's admiring that they try again after the first failures, but now it's just getting desperate that they need to go as far to push it onto their PVE content. 

If it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be.

I agree it's not meant to be, I only disagree with the assertion that they are incapable. I think that the situation they have regarding Warframe is what makes it not meant to be, nothing fundamental about DE.

Remember that with the Amazing Eternals they were trying the same development style, with a F2P PvP game and IMHO they realized it wasn't going to work for lots of reasons but inability wasn't IMHO not one of them.