Quick Limbo Tweak Idea (QL fix)

[Kaytranada]

Goal:

• Propose a quick and easy (main idea) change that could help Limbo and others playing with Limbo without calling forth a ‘rework’. Consider this more of a ‘quality of life’ idea. Secondary ideas might not keep up with how quick and easy the main idea is but I felt like its good to put those out there too. I know it’s hard to find time/ incentive to back track and visit content what was just recently looked at (kind of oldish now) but hopefully since this idea is relatively small and seems easy to do, there’s more incentive to look into it.
• It also seems like a nice thing to do since Limbo’s Deluxe skin is dropping soon *wink *wink  *more incentive

OK, so here is the quick and dirty:

• Limbo still has issues with being ‘Bossy’ in team gameplay
• Squad mates don’t have effective ways to deal with banished enemies if Limbo doesn’t have cataclysm up/ near them or enemies are individually/ radially banished and Limbo isn’t around
• Squad mates 99% of the time don’t like being individually banished (and roll out almost instantly)
• This conflict makes Limbo’s radial banish mechanic almost useless outside of solo/ highly communicative team play

Ideas:

• Main concept:
  • Limbo needs ways to allow his squad mates to enter and exit the rift more freely and on their own terms without the need of verbal communication/ having to guess that they want you to banish them. This does NOT imply that I think squad mates should have as much freedom to enter and exit the Rift as Limbo does, they just need more than what they have now (which is almost zero since using Limbo's Rift tear is their only option rn)
• Main Idea:
  • After squad mates walk outside of Limbos Cataclysm, they stay banished until they choose to roll out or the duration ends.This lets them use Cataclysm as a base to run and grab a banish to seek banished enemies outside of the Cataclysm on their own terms and pace. *This change alone could be enough
• Secondary Ideas:
  • Limbo can charge banish to deploy a large Rift tear that has enough duration for squad mates to use it consistently and consecutively
  • OR Limbo can individually Rift Surge Teammates and give them the temporary ability to use Limbo's Void Dash. 
  • OR Bullet Jumping directly into a Banished enemy grants you a brief banish so that you can quickly deal with a single/ small group of targets. (Make this about ~ 1/4 to ~ 1/6 of Limbo’s modded banish duration)
  • OR Whenever a radial banish is performed, Rift tears spawn around previously surged enemies. 

Limbo already synergizes well with certain Warframe abilities since a lot of them ignore his banish but this quick tweak could help out people focusing on gun-play or melee and lessens the need for considerate Limbo's to micromanage (there’s already a good amount of things he needs to manage).

Edit: Crossed out ideas that seemed problematic after consideration of the feedback in the comments. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by Kaytranada

[peterc3]

None of these are quick and easy or would even qualify as quality of life. Your suggestions range from impossible - basically giving anyone in a squad with Limbo his passive, to increasing the issues people have with Bad Limbos by turning the battlefield into a sea of rift portals.

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

This is a really big problem about Limbo. It's too bad that people have kind of just ignored it. Limbo is my favorite frame, and I have always had to play in a specific way to not disrupt my allies. Everyone was so focused on how disruptive Stasis used to be, that everyone forgot that Banish was also a problem. Your allies will basically hate you if you cast 3 with your Cataclysm open, because when it closes all the enemies remain in the Rift. That's really great for CC for Limbo, but in squads it's too disruptive.

I have to agree with this other guy on a lot of the things you brought up. It would probably be a little too much to let Allies in and out of the Rift that freely. But here's the simplest solution I can possibly think of. And it's definitely 100% effective solving the problem.

Allies can shoot enemies on the opposite side of the Rift. Limbo still has to play by Rift mechanics.

(Edit: I forgot to include that Limbo should also be the only one to be protected from enemy fire in the Rift in this scenario. Allies should not be protected from enemy fire by the Rift, or it would be damage going in one way and not the other.

This way Limbo still has to play by his rules, but others can't be forced into his mechanics. I know it would maybe be inconsistent with his "theme" a bit. But I mean c'mon, functionality is so much more important. What Limbo player wants to feel forced not to use Rift Surge/Banish combo because the squad would get mad? Or on the flip side, what squad wants to deal with a Limbo that doesn't care? Maybe they are trolling? It's still very exploitable for trolls right now.

I would love it if they finally made it to where Limbo is the only one who had to deal with his weird, plane existent mechanics so that we never have to heard squads complaining about this frame again.

Edited December 8, 2018 by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

[EinheriarJudith]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

This is a really big problem about Limbo. It's too bad that people have kind of just ignored it. Limbo is my favorite frame, and I have always had to play in a specific way to not disrupt my allies. Everyone was so focused on how disruptive Stasis used to be, that everyone forgot that Banish was also a problem. Your allies will basically hate you if you cast 3 with your Cataclysm open, because when it closes all the enemies remain in the Rift. That's really great for CC for Limbo, but in squads it's too disruptive.

I have to agree with this other guy on a lot of the things you brought up. It would probably be a little too much to let Allies in and out of the Rift that freely. But here's the simplest solution I can possibly think of. And it's definitely 100% effective solving the problem.

Allies can shoot enemies on the opposite side of the Rift. Limbo still has to play by Rift mechanics.

This way Limbo still has to play by his rules, but others can't be forced into his mechanics. I know it would maybe be inconsistent with his "theme" a bit. But I mean c'mon, functionality is so much more important. What Limbo player wants to feel forced not to use Rift Surge/Banish combo because the squad would get mad? Or on the flip side, what squad wants to deal with a Limbo that doesn't care? Maybe they are trolling? It's still very exploitable for trolls right now.

I would love it if they finally made it to where Limbo is the only one who had to deal with his weird, plane existent mechanics so that we never have to heard squads complaining about this frame again.

in a structured team where limbo is giving orders and communicating, i can see where he is a boon. it tires me out dealing with any limbo. why? because i know a few things will happen.

1. he will use cataclysm and stasis and do nothing else.

2. he will use cataclysm and rift surge and make it difficult to deal with enemies.

3. he will pop rift portals frequently and ill be rolling just to stay out.

4. i will randomly get banished by accident or not.

there should have never been a frame that dictates how other players interact with the game in such a brute force manner that limbo does. i wish to god DE would finally stop dancing around it and do something about it.

Edited December 8, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Kaytranada]

7 hours ago, peterc3 said:

None of these are quick and easy or would even qualify as quality of life. Your suggestions range from impossible - basically giving anyone in a squad with Limbo his passive, to increasing the issues people have with Bad Limbos by turning the battlefield into a sea of rift portals.

"Range from Impossible"... "None of these are quick"... Not sure where you are coming from on that note since my main idea seems like the most reasonable and mechanically simple out of any of the ideas. When I labeled ideas as secondary, you should've taken those ideas less seriously as they are just 'ideas' that are by no means perfectly balanced but just examples of directions they could go. I am also aware that some of the secondary ideas could be more complicated to implement but I was really emphasizing the quick and easy part with my main idea. 

[Kaytranada]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

This is a really big problem about Limbo. It's too bad that people have kind of just ignored it. Limbo is my favorite frame, and I have always had to play in a specific way to not disrupt my allies. Everyone was so focused on how disruptive Stasis used to be, that everyone forgot that Banish was also a problem. Your allies will basically hate you if you cast 3 with your Cataclysm open, because when it closes all the enemies remain in the Rift. That's really great for CC for Limbo, but in squads it's too disruptive.

I have to agree with this other guy on a lot of the things you brought up. It would probably be a little too much to let Allies in and out of the Rift that freely. But here's the simplest solution I can possibly think of. And it's definitely 100% effective solving the problem.

Allies can shoot enemies on the opposite side of the Rift. Limbo still has to play by Rift mechanics.

This way Limbo still has to play by his rules, but others can't be forced into his mechanics. I know it would maybe be inconsistent with his "theme" a bit. But I mean c'mon, functionality is so much more important. What Limbo player wants to feel forced not to use Rift Surge/Banish combo because the squad would get mad? Or on the flip side, what squad wants to deal with a Limbo that doesn't care? Maybe they are trolling? It's still very exploitable for trolls right now.

I would love it if they finally made it to where Limbo is the only one who had to deal with his weird, plane existent mechanics so that we never have to heard squads complaining about this frame again.

Just a note, I never meant to imply that my ideas on this were bullet proof and I'm well aware that some of my secondary ideas are on the complicated side, but I was really trying to emphasize how quick and easy my main idea is. I do see the appeal of your suggestion but that doesn't really help combat the whole issue Limbo has, which is that his Rift Surge/ Radial Banish mechanic is useless currently.  Allowing allies to shoot enemies on the opposite side of the Rift would just make Limbo an over powered god TBH. Limbo gets to manipulate the Rift and squad mates can just wreck everything without having to deal with Rift play at all... and even tho you say "Limbo has to play Rift Mechanics" he really wouldn't have to do anything other than spam this combination of keys: 4-3-4-4. The idea was to keep the Rift play intact to balance out how strong he is already but also letting your squad mates have some control over entering the Rift so that you can utilize your Rift Surge/ Radial Banish mechanic more effectively in any setting. I think you and the other person are over exaggerating how much Rift freedom would be given to allies with some of the ideas I proposed. Yea the idea I had where you could Surge allies and give them the ability to Rift dash is on the high side of freedom but the others seem way more balanced and they aren't all that complicated. The reason Limbo's little Rift tear on dash doesn't work effectively is because its not noticeably large enough, its tied on with his movement so it gets placed in the way of allies, and it has a short duration. Thank you for constructively discussing this with me and not just leaving an nonconstructive, pessimistic, invalidating comment 😄

[Nagisaaa]

the baby rage is real. the only times you ever really see a limbo is in defense and mobile defense, maybe interception so the changes wouldnt really be needed. 
"exiting and entering the rift more freely" i dont know what this means since hoping out the bubble and hoping in does exactly that and if theres a rift somewhere rolling out is really simple...
your main idea would just be an annoyance since most squadmates/randoms want you to undo the bubble anyways and only use it during sticky situations, besides logically speaking leaving a banished area to stay banished until you roll out doesnt make sense, there would have to be a timer for that indicating when you would need to go back in the rift and thats just adding more to look at on the screen which is very monkaS, considering most teams have an octavia...

charging banish would defeat the purpose of cataclysm.
 

bullet jumping into a banished enemy seems cool and amazing. just needs to do dmg like a phantom ripping the soul outta its prey. 

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

4 hours ago, Kaytranada said:

Thank you for constructively discussing this with me and not just leaving an nonconstructive, pessimistic, invalidating comment 😄

No problem

4 hours ago, Kaytranada said:

Allowing allies to shoot enemies on the opposite side of the Rift would just make Limbo an over powered god TBH.

I mean, I heard the same argument about Stasis constantly a while back. That got reversed. And it has been fine really.

4 hours ago, Kaytranada said:

Limbo gets to manipulate the Rift and squad mates can just wreck everything without having to deal with Rift play at all

CC is just CC. Any frame that has high range CC can do this. The only real difference is that Limbo has janky plane exclusive mechanics that don't make sense to have anymore. You could argue that Limbos CC is very powerful. But if I were to use my Nezha high range Divine Spears build and recast it each time it runs out, tbh it wouldn't be a very different situation. There are many other frames that can do it as well.

4 hours ago, Kaytranada said:

letting your squad mates have some control over entering the Rift so that you can utilize your Rift Surge/ Radial Banish mechanic more effectively in any setting. I think you and the other person are over exaggerating how much Rift freedom would be given to allies with some of the ideas I proposed.  

I don't think it's a terrible idea. It would just be difficult to balance how much access people have. To be able to shoot at enemies to the necessary degree, they would need quite a bit of access to the Rift. That whole time they would also be accessing its protection. Also, it's not really more effective in a squad setting. The element of squad annoyance is still there if steps must be completed just to be able to shoot. Shooting at enemies should not really be restricted to the squad to begin with.

Edited December 8, 2018 by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

[Kaytranada]

6 hours ago, Nagisaaa said:

the baby rage is real. the only times you ever really see a limbo is in defense and mobile defense, maybe interception so the changes wouldnt really be needed. 
"exiting and entering the rift more freely" i dont know what this means since hoping out the bubble and hoping in does exactly that and if theres a rift somewhere rolling out is really simple...
your main idea would just be an annoyance since most squadmates/randoms want you to undo the bubble anyways and only use it during sticky situations, besides logically speaking leaving a banished area to stay banished until you roll out doesnt make sense, there would have to be a timer for that indicating when you would need to go back in the rift and thats just adding more to look at on the screen which is very monkaS, considering most teams have an octavia...

charging banish would defeat the purpose of cataclysm.
 

bullet jumping into a banished enemy seems cool and amazing. just needs to do dmg like a phantom ripping the soul outta its prey. 

Appreciate the feedback. Don't completely agree with all points but thank you for the constructive criticism. Glad you like the bullet jump idea as well. Regarding the idea where I propose maintaining banish after you leave cataclysm, in most scenarios that Limbo is found in currently, yes you are accurate in saying it doesn't make sense. But if you think in terms of a Radial Banish play-style where you cast cataclysm, cast Rift Surge, pop your Cataclysm to spread banish from Surged enemies, and cast stasis (which is technically Limbos most effective play style for CC and Rift Torrent), you are basically using your Radial Banish like Saryn's Spores. Its more effective currently if you just Rift Dash and get to killing after you just did the Radial Banish combo rather than leave your bubble up so squad mates can kill enemies outside the bubble, from inside of it or individually banishing each squad mate. Allowing squad mates to use the Cataclysm as a base to get banished will help them be able to chase down the enemies with Limbo and incentivize keeping Cataclysm up more, making the Rift less of a barrier, and helping the Radial Banish mechanic not be so useless in most content (also helps him branch off of defense more but he will still always shine in defense). 

[Klaive]

19 hours ago, Kaytranada said:

OR Bullet Jumping directly into a Banished enemy grants you a brief banish so that you can quickly deal with a single/ small group of targets. (Make this about ~ 1/4 to ~ 1/6 of Limbo’s modded banish duration)

As a Limbo main, I like this. Make banished targets act as a rift tear.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

17 hours ago, Klaive said:

As a Limbo main, I like this. Make banished targets act as a rift tear.

I like this too. My thought was to allow allies within affinity range to benefit from his passive as long as an enemy is in the rift, but this is a much better way to prevent allies from accidentally ending up rifted when trying to pick up items.

On 2018-12-08 at 3:01 AM, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

Allies can shoot enemies on the opposite side of the Rift. Limbo still has to play by Rift mechanics.

If allies are unhindered by rift mechanics then every Limbo would just run max range and duration and Stasis everything with allies to wipe maps with no risks whatsoever. It has to lose some benefit to lose some drawbacks. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by (PS4)Riko_113

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

If allies are unhindered by rift mechanics then every Limbo would just run max range and duration and Stasis everything with allies to wipe maps with no risks whatsoever. It has to lose some benefit to lose some drawbacks. 

This is an argument I've heard many times over about this. Particularly before the Stasis change. People said that if your bullets could actually freakin move, he would be game breaking. This is a similar situation, because your shots are still not landing. And especially after seeing how anticlimactic that Stasis change really was, I really think that it's not nearly as big of deal as these concerns make it out to be. Consider these factors.

1) A Frame having powers of imposing damage exclusion on his is Squad is not an acceptable downside. This is the current "hindrance" you were referring to? The Status Quo is just not an acceptable way of giving abilities a downside. If it needs a downside, something else should be in place instead.

2) Co-op functionality is much more of a priority if you are worried about Limbo being game breaking. It just doesn't get much more game breaking than other people just not being able to Shoot/Melee, etc. The reason that people don't want to use him at all right now is because he is basically already broken in that way (Though the Stasis change does make him functional without ever using 1 or 3).

3) Limbo's crowd control is not that much better than other comparable Warframes. He definitely has top tier CC, but I think there are a host of other frames that can do so similarly, that I don't really know what people are so worried about. If high range CC is such a game balance concern, then what about Nezha, Rhino, Vauban, etc. If I wanted, I could pull out those frames and allow allies to wipe maps with no risks whatsoever as well.

4) Without completely eliminating the element of damage exclusion for other players, he'll never truly be "fixed". Even if access to the Rift was more available to other players, he would still play as a great big nuisance honestly. Don't get me wrong, it would be better. But if we are even opening up this conversation, just solve this Warframe once and for all. Now I will say this-->

The idea of banished targets acting as Rift portals has grown on me. I don't really think it's a definitive way to solve it. I think squads are still going to hate this frame. I think for it to work, there would have to be an appropriate duration on the effect. But I think it would be fine if it was properly implemented. And I'm certainly not against something that would improve the frame given that the mostly like scenario is that they change nothing. This is probably not on DE's priority list, unfortunately.

Edited December 9, 2018 by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

[LAD.Y]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

The idea of banished targets acting as Rift portals has grown on me. I don't really think it's a definitive way to solve it. I think squads are still going to hate this frame. I think for it to work, there would have to be an appropriate duration on the effect. But I think it would be fine if it was properly implemented. And I'm certainly not against something that would improve the frame given that the mostly like scenario is that they change nothing. This is probably not on DE's priority list, unfortunately.

I wouldn't hate this honestly. The problem currently, as a Limbo 'main' I guess you could say, is that when you're in a pub party it's SUPER hard to not step on other people's toes. For example, I was doing a public Arbitration, and surprisingly only had 1 leaver to the party. (We still got a 4th like a second later but I know they saw Limbo and was like 'Eff this I'm out') We stayed for 30 waves, but for like 27 of those I was doing more or less nothing but banishing the defense target, focusing those drones with my operator and letting people know that's what I was doing and 'if i accidentally hit you cause my first ability is a cone sorry'. The thing with Limbo in pubs is that, you can't really...play the frame. You have to more or less ask permission from the rest of your party like 'let me know when you want a staticlysm' so you don't get anyone going 'OMFG F**kin' Limbo stahp!'. I was lucky, the dudes were cool with my Limbo, and were like 'You're a good limbo you only banished me like 2x' and while I'm like 'THANKS FAM' it's also like, that's me ACTIVELY trying to avoid casting on people and using barely 25% of my kit. 100% could've gone on longer if I'd used Staticlysm earlier, but I was so scared of people flipping out that I didn't do anything until half our party was dead and the last guy (besides me) was like 'maybe need that bubble now'. Which obviously I KNEW, but this gets to the point of this message, Limbo's CC is really good, but it's too selfish to be seen generally as beneficial in a team setting. In this scenario it's better to go with a gara or frost or nezha or vauban or ANYONE else, because for most of the fight you're not allowed to do anything else without being seen as a troll at worst and a hindrance at best. 

While this tweak probably wouldn't fix EVERYTHING, I do think it's one that would be a step in the right direction. I'd make it something fairly low like 5-10 seconds of active banish that could be reset by allies killing targets in the rift, but at least in terms of combat I think that would do a lot for Limbo as well. Since then rift torrent could potentially be used more freely since allies could more or less freely move between the rift themselves. 

This wouldn't remove haven functionality either since it would more or less be a passive. It still doesn't change the hacking thing but i don't think there's much to be done there unless DE allows allies to choose to be untargetable by abilities

[EinheriarJudith]

11 hours ago, LAD.Y said:

~snip~

you should not have to feel this way. no one should. limbo makes arbitration harder because the drones are supposed to be immune to warframe powers but some how limbo breaks this rule and the only way to damage them is to either shoot from outside cata or use the operator. a lua arbi i was in before had a limbo and the only thing they did was cata  and banish the defense target, when killing got slower because of the drones he had the audacity to complain about killing getting slower.

blocking allies from interacting with enemies and objects should not be a thing. he tries to do all the things other point defense/CC frames do but those frames arent intrusive in what they do. for limbo to be seen in a better light they will have to do away with him imposing his rules on others.

Edit: rather than the rift blocking ally fire between planes, it should give DR/evasion to allies in the rift. when enemies get banished/pulled into the rift, it reduces their accuracy and they can still be shot from either side of the plane. no more limbo problems and he gets to benefit from stasis and rift surge without being intrusive.

Edited December 10, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[LAD.Y]

5 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

you should not have to feel this way. no one should. limbo makes arbitration harder because the drones are supposed to be immune to warframe powers but some how limbo breaks this rule and the only way to damage them is to either shoot from outside cata or use the operator. a lua arbi i was in before had a limbo and the only thing they did was cata  and banish the defense target, when killing got slower because of the drones he had the audacity to complain about killing getting slower.

blocking allies from interacting with enemies and objects should not be a thing. he tries to do all the things other point defense/CC frames do but those frames arent intrusive in what they do. for limbo to be seen in a better light they will have to do away with him imposing his rules on others.

Edit: rather than the rift blocking ally fire between planes, it should give DR/evasion to allies in the rift. when enemies get banished/pulled into the rift, it reduces their accuracy and they can still be shot from either side of the plane. no more limbo problems and he gets to benefit from stasis and rift surge without being intrusive.

XD Thanks. I agree, I shouldn't have to, and that's part of why I'm open to suggestions that give allies more control with how they interact with the rift. I'm not looking to change Limbo's kit, I like how unique it is and in the current state there's not very many that are truly unique in the same way at this point. What needs to happen is some change like you suggested, so Limbo's can still play with the flair they want and allies aren't feeling unintentionally cockblocked. It's frustrating when you do your damndest to just NOT be a problem and it still has people going. 'Dammit Limbo'. I just wanna enjoy my game like everyone else with a frame I enjoy like anyone else, and that's conditioned me into a mostly solo life corner since that's really the only place you can play someone like Limbo at this point.

(Side-Note: Ironically in this scenario fighting didn't slow down too much, so kudos to my team in that respect. We'd had a Saryn, Ember, Rhino and myself on Limbo, but yes that's generally a problem, on top of the drone thing and the wonky interaction it has with the rift. Sometimes Cata literally rips the control off the drone and just pulls the targets into the rift, sometimes it doesn't. I still find it easier to kill with my operator (safer in some respects as well) then fighting it that way, but that has a lot to do with the map and how the Limbo is fighting. If they're spamming rift surge  they're TOTALLY going to slow things down. If the Limbo is paying attention they know how to stasis cancel in a way that keeps things moving when the current bubble is cleared etc etc. Also at a certain point if it's a little slower people are just like 'well at least i'm not dead' XD)

[Kaytranada]

On 2018-12-09 at 2:17 PM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

If allies are unhindered by rift mechanics then every Limbo would just run max range and duration and Stasis everything with allies to wipe maps with no risks whatsoever. It has to lose some benefit to lose some drawbacks. 

 

On 2018-12-09 at 3:59 PM, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

This is an argument I've heard many times over about this. Particularly before the Stasis change. People said that if your bullets could actually freakin move, he would be game breaking. This is a similar situation, because your shots are still not landing. And especially after seeing how anticlimactic that Stasis change really was, I really think that it's not nearly as big of deal as these concerns make it out to be. Consider these factors.

The thing is, Limbo already has the ability currently to allow max range and duration builds and let allies wipe maps. This is because offensive warframe abilities still act irregardless of the Rift. You just have to have the right team combination. Frames that are considered DPS frames work great with Limbo since they rarely have to deal with being blocked out of planes unless they don't want to use their offensive abilities which is understandable. 

I just want to know if anyone actually knows how to pull off the Radial Banish/ knows how good it is? Because Jedi_Arts also mentions: 

On 2018-12-09 at 3:59 PM, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

3) Limbo's crowd control is not that much better than other comparable Warframes

Using Radial Banish not only allows you to stasis everything within your cataclysm, but extends out several meters from the range of your Cataclysm (depending on your build) and most CC frames don't have this same AOE range nor the quality of CC that Limbo provides.

I do agree that a route could be taken similar to the one proposed by Jedi_Arts_ where allies are unhindered by different planes, but that would require a whole re-balance and rework which is what I wanted to avoid. Making his 1 & 3 / Radial banish mechanic useful and stopping him from blocking out allies from playing the game by giving them more freedom to the Rift without reworking the Rift is really the only realistic solution worth talking about honestly. I wish everything could be put on the table but I'm just trying to suggest things within 'reason' so DE is more likely to pick him up and give him another go. 

[EinheriarJudith]

54 minutes ago, Kaytranada said:

~snip~

the rift needs a rework. making more work for players that arent limbo will not help.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

As a regular Limbo player, my favorite is still the idea of "more risk, more reward". Regardless of lore, gameplay should be priority which is what my suggestions have in mind to get some of both worlds.

Banish, for gameplay purposes, could be made to only partially rift affected targets, giving resistance to damage not received while on the same plane, rather than immunity. We would deal and receive less damage from enemies on the opposite plane from us, but we'd also be able to attack them which is better than before.

Rift Surge itself could be reworked to include a mechanic that shifts the phasing balance better in our favor where we get more resistance while the enemies get less making it's ability to spread less of a hindrance to the team.

Cataclysm could stay as is with a zone of full Rift immersion and full immunity on the opposite plane since allies can easily move in and out of it at will, unlike with his other abilities.

If Stasis becomes a problem with these changes it could fully freeze enemies in Cataclysm, while only slowing Banished enemies unless used in combination with the Rift Surge balance shift which would then allow them to be frozen for the duration that both Rift Surge and Stasis are active. He would actively be able to use all of his abilities, and synergize with various abilities in his kit without being a complete nuisance to team. Then he might be only a partial nuisance.... Hehe

[EinheriarJudith]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Cataclysm could stay as is with a zone of full Rift immersion and full immunity on the opposite plane since allies can easily move in and out of it at will, unlike with his other abilities.

this will only make it a more annoying snow globe. it also doesnt account for cataclysm's massive range.

Edit my mistake it will keep it as a more annoying snow globe.

Edited December 11, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

this will only make it a more annoying snow globe. it also doesnt account for cataclysm's massive range.

Edit my mistake it will keep it as a more annoying snow globe.

It's also infinitely more powerful than Snow Globe, but I do think it's base size is absurd. I would like that changed. I run Limbo with 70% range most times because it takes up so much space otherwise. I only use max ranged Limbo when I'm soloing the Void for Argon farming. 

[(PSN)Jedi_Arts_]

5 hours ago, Kaytranada said:

Using Radial Banish not only allows you to stasis everything within your cataclysm, but extends out several meters from the range of your Cataclysm (depending on your build) and most CC frames don't have this same AOE range nor the quality of CC that Limbo provides.

So essentially you're saying Limbo is the single best CC frame in the game? I don't necessarily disagree with that. And yeah, I know exactly how powerful his 1 & 3 are used together with his 2. It's just a judgement thing, and my judgement tells me that just allowing Allies to attack is not really that different from what we already have. The only real differences in my mind are that

1) It's a future-proof solution where we don't have to worry about this issue ever coming up again. Because the mechanics in question would no longer exist.

2) Allies would not be receiving the Rift's protection anymore either. I think this is one of the big things that keeps this in balance that nobody has really noticed yet. If we allowed Banished targets to act as Rift tears, the CC-exploit situation would not be all that different from what I proposed. Yet with Rift access for Allies, then the Protection from enemies outside the Rift is also absolute.

5 hours ago, Kaytranada said:

where allies are unhindered by different planes, but that would require a whole re-balance and rework

Again, it's really up to judgement. Personally, I don't see it as needed if we're also okay with the CC as it is in game right now. If you think the current Limbo CC needs to be nerfed, then that's different. But I don't think the "You can shoot now factor" is the single element that would push it over into the OP category. Maybe "You can shoot now, and you also have complete protection outside the Rift" might make it OP in my Judgement.

Also, I'm really not as picky about this as it might seem. It's just that my favorite frame having damage exclusion to the squad as an integral part of the kit is something that has been one of my biggest issues with abilities in the game for a very long time.

Edited December 11, 2018 by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_

[EinheriarJudith]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)Jedi_Arts_ said:

~snip~

my suggested changes turns Stasis into the primary CC since limbo already has a means to spread the rift or place it on a wide area. it also removes enemy damage immunity and replaces it with DR and a accuracy Debuff.

i think sacrificing enemy damage immunity for "you can shoot now" is a proper price to pay.

Edited December 11, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[AzureFlash]

The concept of the rift is simply incompatible with co-operative play. People have been arguing about possible reworks until they're out of breath for years, to no avail. Restrict Limbo from Public matchmaking, or remove the frame entirely, rewrite the lore and refund everyone. It's never too late to fix a mistake.

[(PSN)GrandisSupernus]

Limbo has definitely earned a place in the game. No-one here is discussing removing him entirely from Warframe.

I think the main (bolded) suggestion is a good idea. I have an additional suggestion... make it so that the rift hole left behind Limbo when he "jumps" just lasts way longer. I've tried to follow Limbos into the Rift on purpose and it usually closes before I can get in, while at other times I'm running tightly behind them and I end up Rifted without wanting to be. Heavily increased duration of the left-behind Rift tears would make it so that other players can more efficiently opt in and out of Rift-walking. Maybe there could even be two or three (max) at a time in the situation of a Limbo sliding in and out multiple times in a short period, so that other players can still participate and have more autonomy. What do you think? Is this a good idea?

[EinheriarJudith]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)GrandisSupernus said:

Limbo has definitely earned a place in the game. No-one here is discussing removing him entirely from Warframe.

I think the main (bolded) suggestion is a good idea. I have an additional suggestion... make it so that the rift hole left behind Limbo when he "jumps" just lasts way longer. I've tried to follow Limbos into the Rift on purpose and it usually closes before I can get in, while at other times I'm running tightly behind them and I end up Rifted without wanting to be. Heavily increased duration of the left-behind Rift tears would make it so that other players can more efficiently opt in and out of Rift-walking. Maybe there could even be two or three (max) at a time in the situation of a Limbo sliding in and out multiple times in a short period, so that other players can still participate and have more autonomy. What do you think? Is this a good idea?

its been repeated enough times that the rift is intrusive. i dont want to better opt in or out because that is still playing by limbos rules. he should not be able to control how other players interact with the environment.

adding more portals and making them last longer only worsens the problem.