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CritFumble

I love Baruuk, there's just one thing...

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Hi fellow Tenno and anyone else reading this. 
I'm completely in love with the design concept and visuals and game play of Baruuk, he looks like the most fun frame to date to me. A Warframe borrowing and celebrating the aesthetics and visuals of African culture is just so, so cool.

With this said there's one thing about him that just isn't sitting right with me...

The word savage comes with allot of baggage, its a word that has traditionally been used most by colonizers and invaders to native lands to dehumanize the local populations as to better justify the horrific violence that they were subjected to. 

which is why his ultimate ability being called savagery kinda doesn't sit right with me. the ability itself doesn't bring to mind savage as a verb either with all of the precise practiced stances and movements in the melee combos.

Baruuk himself looks just as he is described, peaceful, noble, calm and powerful. Is that to create an irony about the word savage as a kind of commentary in and of itself? 

I'm wondering if there is a name to better suit this ability that doesn't have such nasty connotations, can anyone else think of one? I do not know the process by which ability names are picked and whether or not it is too late to be changed but i hope maybe we can find something that is both more suiting and also less heavy than Savagery.

Thanks for reading!  

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all i saw was another exalted mode frame. a side grade to vallkyr, taking waves from excaliber. this is the first time ive seen a new frame and thought man that looks boring.

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I had the same concern, plus it's already the name of an existing mod so that conflict I feel warrants a different name on its own

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43 minutes ago, DjAirsurfer said:

I had the same concern, plus it's already the name of an existing mod so that conflict I feel warrants a different name on its own

i hope so, i didn't know about the mod name conflict but all the more reason to change it in my eyes.

57 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s likely a placeholder name.

im not sure it is a place holder, from the dev stream they were saying them fairly conclusively the only thing that seemed place holder was the "edge" meter 

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6 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

all i saw was another exalted mode frame. a side grade to vallkyr, taking waves from excaliber. this is the first time ive seen a new frame and thought man that looks boring.

I mean that's a pretty bold claim when Revenant exists.

And to say he's a side grade to Valkyr is a misrepresentation of him.  His passive is his fuel for his ultimate and is also passive damage reduction.  His 1 lets him ignore damage from the front via bullets passing through him.  Second is an expanding AoE that lingers and eventually puts enemies to sleep which take more finisher damage.  His third ability disarms enemies near by while providing him with damage reduction.  And his ultimate is expanding aoe symbols that CC the enemy in a variety of ways depending on what combo you use.

Valkyr is straight up about killing.  Baruuk is entirely about surviving and cc.  His exalted weapon is the best one they've designed purely because it's not another "spam till they die."  The only actual problem with his kit that I think exists is there isn't much synergy to be had amongst his abilities.

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I mean that's a pretty bold claim when Revenant exists.

And to say he's a side grade to Valkyr is a misrepresentation of him.  His passive is his fuel for his ultimate and is also passive damage reduction.  His 1 lets him ignore damage from the front via bullets passing through him.  Second is an expanding AoE that lingers and eventually puts enemies to sleep which take more finisher damage.  His third ability disarms enemies near by while providing him with damage reduction.  And his ultimate is expanding aoe symbols that CC the enemy in a variety of ways depending on what combo you use.

Valkyr is straight up about killing.  Baruuk is entirely about surviving and cc.  His exalted weapon is the best one they've designed purely because it's not another "spam till they die."  The only actual problem with his kit that I think exists is there isn't much synergy to be had amongst his abilities.

3 survivalbility/CC skills and an exalted mode. sounds boring to me. i like that DE next frame will be a non damage one since the last few have been damage ones but another exalted frame? bleh.

Edit: i actually enjoy playing revenant and he atleast has synergy in his kit they only need to make his thralls immune to ally fire, fix the bugs, and hes good to go.

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1 minute ago, EinheriarJudith said:

3 survivalbility/CC skills and an exalted mode. sounds boring to me. i like that DE next frame will be a non damage one since the last few have been damage ones but another exalted frame? bleh.

Maybe i'm biased because I prefer cc over all other forms of play.  But I don't think it's really accurate to compare his exalted to anything else.  As all other exalteds are damage.  His is utility.  In all other exalted cases sans ivara i'd say their gameplay pushes you towards using it frequently.  This isn't the case for Baruuk though either.  Like I get the sour taste in your mouth purely because it's exalted.  I really do.  But I think you're judging it too harshly I guess.

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3 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Maybe i'm biased because I prefer cc over all other forms of play.  But I don't think it's really accurate to compare his exalted to anything else.  As all other exalteds are damage.  His is utility.  In all other exalted cases sans ivara i'd say their gameplay pushes you towards using it frequently.  This isn't the case for Baruuk though either.  Like I get the sour taste in your mouth purely because it's exalted.  I really do.  But I think you're judging it too harshly I guess.

its already awkward that they are releasing a CC frame alongside nyx's rework (a CC frame). purely just my opinion but i think they can do better than another exalted weapon.

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10 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

its already awkward that they are releasing a CC frame alongside nyx's rework (a CC frame). purely just my opinion but i think they can do better than another exalted weapon.

I'm not entirely happy with nyx's rework.  So i'm personally fine with them being released along side each other.  And probably.  I just don't know what i'd do with his kit to bump it up a notch.  it's not obvious in my mind like revenants entire existence or garuda's crap ult before it was seeking talons.

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm not entirely happy with nyx's rework.  So i'm personally fine with them being released along side each other.  And probably.  I just don't know what i'd do with his kit to bump it up a notch.  it's not obvious in my mind like revenants entire existence or garuda's crap ult before it was seeking talons.

well if they cant do any better than exalted weapons there is still, machete, scythe, dual sword, rifle, shotgun...... you get what im saying lol. it will wear thin eventually. nyx's bolt change just goes to show they would rather just give people a means to delete armor than to fix scaling. absorb change is actually nice. i never had an issue with mind control so it dealing more damage is just a buff.

Edit: ill likely do what i do with valkyr with him. use his first 3 abilities and ignore his 4.

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9 hours ago, CritFumble said:

Hi fellow Tenno and anyone else reading this. 
I'm completely in love with the design concept and visuals and game play of Baruuk, he looks like the most fun frame to date to me. A Warframe borrowing and celebrating the aesthetics and visuals of African culture is just so, so cool.

With this said there's one thing about him that just isn't sitting right with me...

The word savage comes with allot of baggage, its a word that has traditionally been used most by colonizers and invaders to native lands to dehumanize the local populations as to better justify the horrific violence that they were subjected to. 

which is why his ultimate ability being called savagery kinda doesn't sit right with me. the ability itself doesn't bring to mind savage as a verb either with all of the precise practiced stances and movements in the melee combos.

Baruuk himself looks just as he is described, peaceful, noble, calm and powerful. Is that to create an irony about the word savage as a kind of commentary in and of itself? 

I'm wondering if there is a name to better suit this ability that doesn't have such nasty connotations, can anyone else think of one? I do not know the process by which ability names are picked and whether or not it is too late to be changed but i hope maybe we can find something that is both more suiting and also less heavy than Savagery.

Thanks for reading!  

I thought they called the ability pacifist

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)bioblaze10656 said:

I thought they called the ability pacifist

His fists are called Paci Fist, but ability itself is called Savagery. Same thing goes for Valkyr where her 4th ability is called Hysteria but the claws themselves are called Talons.

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2 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

His fists are called Paci Fist, but ability itself is called Savagery. Same thing goes for Valkyr where her 4th ability is called Hysteria but the claws themselves are called Talons.

this 

 

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DE please change his Subdue ability its similar like Gara ability  and the  Savage ability  like ..... 

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Don't go changing the name for ONE person's cripes, besides: Warframes, are, not, people.

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2 hours ago, Sergster said:

Don't go changing the name for ONE person's cripes, besides: Warframes, are, not, people.

i obviously know warframes arn't people theyre a pile of metal and bio goo that doesn't exist and is in a video-game 

but people are people, real people 

and Baruuk has been explicitly created to invoke the aesthetics and visuals of specific african tribes. The devs have said so publicly and it is obviously a great source of inspiration and celebration in the design.

so why go against all that by using such a charged word as Savagery for his ultimate ability? it just doesnt fit and goes against the design ethos they had in mind for the frame in my eyes.

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I have to agree with this. I don't think there's really any malice behind the choice, especially since the names are very likely placeholder, but there were a few parts to that demo that made me a bit uncomfortable, namely:

  • "Savagery" being used to describe a character inspired by an African culture, as mentioned above.
  • That same character's associated syandana being expressly designed to look like a monkey tail.

So just to be clear, I think Baruuk's theme is phenomenal and he absolutely deserves to be in the game, but considering the cultural baggage and optics that come with such a theme, DE needs to be a lot more careful than they currently have been, otherwise it might blow up in their face. On that same note, that syandana looks amazing and should definitely be in the game (the physics on it are especially impressive), it's just that that specific cosmetic's visuals and theme are exactly the kind of thing you don't want to juxtapose with the equally specific theme on that character.

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5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I have to agree with this. I don't think there's really any malice behind the choice, especially since the names are very likely placeholder, but there were a few parts to that demo that made me a bit uncomfortable, namely:

  • "Savagery" being used to describe a character inspired by an African culture, as mentioned above.
  • That same character's associated syandana being expressly designed to look like a monkey tail.

So just to be clear, I think Baruuk's theme is phenomenal and he absolutely deserves to be in the game, but considering the cultural baggage and optics that come with such a theme, DE needs to be a lot more careful than they currently have been, otherwise it might blow up in their face. On that same note, that syandana looks amazing and should definitely be in the game (the physics on it are especially impressive), it's just that that specific cosmetic's visuals and theme are exactly the kind of thing you don't want to juxtapose with the equally specific theme on that character.

thanks so much for replying 

i knew i wasnt the only one, watching the dev stream just kinda made me pause and raise my eyebrows

i didnt even think of the syandana 

i really really hope they change it 

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15 hours ago, CritFumble said:

i obviously know warframes arn't people theyre a pile of metal and bio goo that doesn't exist and is in a video-game 

but people are people, real people 

and Baruuk has been explicitly created to invoke the aesthetics and visuals of specific african tribes. The devs have said so publicly and it is obviously a great source of inspiration and celebration in the design.

so why go against all that by using such a charged word as Savagery for his ultimate ability? it just doesnt fit and goes against the design ethos they had in mind for the frame in my eyes.

Not really. You drew that conclusion based on his looks. 

He is more of a "warrior monk" warframe than African tribesman. He is designed to be a warframe that is more defensive and supportive, then when the time is right strike hard and strike fast. 

This is more akin to warrior monks who would strive to resolve conflict in a peaceful manner, but would not shy away from a fight. They also wore robes by the way.

I think you are just being too sensitive. Yeah, savage was used in a negative context. But it is purely based on you if you only see it in that light. You are conflicting the noun "savage" with the verb and adjective which is more like something being primal, fierce, a force of nature, unrelenting. The winds of a hurricane, forest fires, wild animal attacks, all can be described as savage. 

Why try to stir up conflict when there is none or no reason for it?

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3 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

Not really. You drew that conclusion based on his looks. 

He is more of a "warrior monk" warframe than African tribesman. He is designed to be a warframe that is more defensive and supportive, then when the time is right strike hard and strike fast. 

DE themselves said Baruuk was inspired from African cultures and that they deliberately designed his visuals and sounds to feature African themes. It's right there in the devstream. The OP isn't making things up from out of nowhere, and they are very evidently not the only person to have come to that same conclusion. It is therefore better to discuss this subject now among people who like DE and want the best for them, rather than ignore it and have it turn into a potential PR powder keg farther down the line.

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4 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

think you are just being too sensitive. Yeah, savage was used in a negative context. But it is purely based on you if you only see it in that light. You are conflicting the noun "savage" with the verb and adjective which is more like something being primal, fierce, a force of nature, unrelenting. The winds of a hurricane, forest fires, wild animal attacks, all can be described as savage. 

Why try to stir up conflict when there is none or no reason for it?

Its not for no reason. U may not see that symbolism there even after it was made clear he is based off of African cultures, but people do. It's not something you do consciously, and by no means does that invalidate it. If something like that, which we know has detrimental potential, can be changed, then why not. And let's be clear, it does have that potential.

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5 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

Not really. You drew that conclusion based on his looks. 

He is more of a "warrior monk" warframe than African tribesman. He is designed to be a warframe that is more defensive and supportive, then when the time is right strike hard and strike fast. 

what part of 'Baruuk has been explicitly created to invoke the aesthetics and visuals of specific African tribes' was lost on you? i didn't make that up for whatever strange personal reason. that's just a fact that happened that's what they said.

5 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

I think you are just being too sensitive. Yeah, savage was used in a negative context. But it is purely based on you if you only see it in that light. You are conflicting the noun "savage" with the verb and adjective which is more like something being primal, fierce, a force of nature, unrelenting. The winds of a hurricane, forest fires, wild animal attacks, all can be described as savage. 

I addressed this in my original post. 

and even if it was describing the action the action doesn't fit, it doesn't look savage, it looks practiced and thought out and disciplined. even without the strange racial connotations the name just doesn't suit in my eyes.

You can disagree and think that the names okay and overlook the connotations it has, that's fine, but please don't make things up and ignore easily provable facts in favor of your own view. That isn't productive and not basis for a discussion in good faith.

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Yes this is a perfectly reasonable point, "savage" used in these contexts is certainly something that we should avoid doing, and hopefully DE is taking this feedback on board. 

On 2018-12-10 at 6:00 PM, m0b1us1 said:

You are conflicting the noun "savage" with the verb and adjective which is more like something being primal, fierce, a force of nature, unrelenting. The winds of a hurricane, forest fires, wild animal attacks, all can be described as savage. 

That is exactly the thing: you are defining savagery properly, something that is of the nature, "wild", animalised and "not civilized", not industrialised, not colonised. Associating this with term a cultural product that is inspired by "African cultures" (which is already kind of a red flag due to the tendency of Western media portraying Africa as this one big mix of things rather than giving due to specific cultures and societies within the continent) is part of a broader, longer term narrative that associates Africa with primitivism, pitting African societies on the far end of an imagined linear path towards progress and civilisation where Western societies occupy modernity - that is bad, in case anyone is still unsure.

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i don't think there's anything i could add to this culturally that hasn't already been said but i do want to add that, even without the baggage that comes with using the term "savage" around a design that's African influenced, the name still doesn't fit. the word savagery implies an angry, senseless lack of control and what i've seen of Baruuk's 4th feels far more measured and deliberate than the name would imply. the ability itself looks cool, but i have to join in with the people hoping that there's a name change on the cards before Baruuk's release.

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