I love Baruuk, there's just one thing...

[EinheriarJudith]

what i find funny is people pick this to talk about cultural correctness. in a game with mass murdering machines and children with magic powers that kill. this is a fantasy game and has no bearing on real life topics.

Edited December 14, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[MasterBurik]

In the context of Baruuk, savage fits quite well: His "normal" state is defensive and non-confrontational. Once he reaches his tipping point, he breaks from these self-imposed constraints. In such a state, he would be (in his mind) quite savage and malicious.

[Karonuva]

On 2018-12-14 at 4:31 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

what i find funny is people pick this to talk about cultural correctness. in a game with mass murdering machines and children with magic powers that kill. this is a fantasy game and has no bearing on real life topics.

This is such an ignorant point of view I'm baffled. Warframe does not exist in a vacuum and is not created by 100% emotionless robots. Human slip ups and predjudices and bad connotations are bound to happen, even if unintentionally. And when it does, redeeming it has literally no negative effects.

Like, if it doesn't matter to you, then why are you advocating against it? By the definition of "not caring" you wouldn't care either way. You're not even trying to understand why it might have negative connotations, you just think it's "political correctness run rampant!" as if changing the name of one ability will cause the apocalypse. Being a decent person and taking responsibility for mistakes =/= overly pc policing

[EinheriarJudith]

21 minutes ago, DjAirsurfer said:

This is such an ignorant point of view I'm baffled. Warframe does not exist in a vacuum and is not created by 100% emotionless robots. Human slip ups and predjudices and bad connotations are bound to happen, even if unintentionally. And when it does, redeeming it has literally no negative effects.

Like, if it doesn't matter to you, then why are you advocating against it? By the definition of "not caring" you wouldn't care either way. You're not even trying to understand why it might have negative connotations, you just think it's "political correctness run rampant!" as if changing the name of one ability will cause the apocalypse. Being a decent person and taking responsibility for mistakes =/= overly pc policing

they did nothing wrong. borrowing the aesthetics of something doesn't mean it embodies it. again this is a fantasy game where machines of mass murdering destructive powers are used and children with powers also help these machines kill. lets not forget that these children also went through a kind of abuse/experimentation. 

the only ignorant point of view is the one trying to place a problem where none exists. the frame is not named after the culture or any figure head or important persons in that culture. dont like that tough. DE has done no wrong here.

[(PSN)negativ21]

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

they did nothing wrong. borrowing the aesthetics of something doesn't mean it embodies it. again this is a fantasy game where machines of mass murdering destructive powers are used and children with powers also help these machines kill. lets not forget that these children also went through a kind of abuse/experimentation. 

the only ignorant point of view is the one trying to place a problem where none exists. the frame is not named after the culture or any figure head or important persons in that culture. dont like that tough. DE has done no wrong here.

Sorry bud but this is objectively wrong. Like, its not even an opinion. The term he used above is pretty much perfect, Warframe does not exist in a Vacuum. And you cannot humanly say that subliminal messages implanted in a game like this, intentional or not, do not affect you outside the game... you literally cant. There is leagues of research and conceptualization established around how such things impact people, and that is exactly why people push for such changes. 

I get it, there are plenty of people who, after this whole SJW thing became a thing, took it too far and started bringing up issues unnecessarily, but not in this case imo. And either way, this is not an issue which can be dismissed out of hand simply because you think it doesn't belong. Also using the games lore to excuse a naming choice which kind of clearly has out of game consequences doesn't really work, not to mention the scope of your in game examples (experimentation/massacres) is completely different from the one in the discussion. 

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

Sorry bud but this is objectively wrong. Like, its not even an opinion. The term he used above is pretty much perfect, Warframe does not exist in a Vacuum. And you cannot humanly say that subliminal messages implanted in a game like this, intentional or not, do not affect you outside the game... you literally cant. There is leagues of research and conceptualization established around how such things impact people, and that is exactly why people push for such changes. 

I get it, there are plenty of people who, after this whole SJW thing became a thing, took it too far and started bringing up issues unnecessarily, but not in this case imo. And either way, this is not an issue which can be dismissed out of hand simply because you think it doesn't belong. Also using the games lore to excuse a naming choice which kind of clearly has out of game consequences doesn't really work, not to mention the scope of your in game examples (experimentation/massacres) is completely different from the one in the discussion. 

GL with that. 

[Xepthrichros]

I guess we can name it "Catharsis"?

[(PSN)negativ21]

7 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I guess we can name it "Catharsis"?

Maybe something associated with rage/fury/wrath etc. That's what i think of more when someone's patience snaps anyway. I actually really like Wrath

[Teridax68]

On 2018-12-14 at 3:31 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

what i find funny is people pick this to talk about cultural correctness. in a game with mass murdering machines and children with magic powers that kill. this is a fantasy game and has no bearing on real life topics.

Are we talking about the same Warframe? This is a game that features many different cultures and ideologies, and makes a deliberate effort to draw parallels to our own. The Grineer are representative of effectively any sort of xenophobic/authoritarian regime, while the Corpus are depicted as ultra-capitalist exploiters who literally worship profit. The game's newest expansion revolves entirely around the victims of this and doesn't hold back from tying back this fiction to real life. Similarly, the game featured a quest that gave representation to a character on the autism spectrum, and in their communications DE mentioned several times that they did extensive research on real-life cultures based around the Arctic Circle to depict the Ostrons, and similar research into Sudanese tribes for Baruuk.

As negativ21 said: Warframe does not exist in a vacuum, nor does it try to. Even if DE hadn't made a deliberate effort to add representation, diversity, and a degree of sociopolitical critique to their work, that would still not prevent the fact that Warframe is a product made and played by real-life people. Nothing that exists in our world comes out of nothing, and everything that we experience is going to interact with a larger cultural context. In this particular case, the usage of the term "savagery" to describe people of Africa or the African disapora, as well as the juxtaposition of monkey imagery with these people, has a well-documented history of violence and dehumanization tied to colonialist invasion and exploitation: it does not matter whether or not Warframe's universe is one of fantasy, at the end of the day its developers are presenting a character with intentional African influences, along with a bunch of elements tied to this character that have racist connotations, to an audience where many are already aware of said connotations, as evidenced by this very thread. These criticisms are being made now by people who legitimately care about and look out for DE, because whichever complaints have been made now will pale in comparison to the PR backlash the developers will receive if their character goes live with those same elements, and grabs the attention of people aware of those same issues (which will itself almost certainly be the case).

Again, I don't think any of this is deliberate, so much as a slip-up by the developers who may not have been conscious of what they were dealing with. Similarly, I don't think the call here is for punishment or for DE to abort Baruuk's development. Rather, the very simple request here is for the (placeholder) name on one of his abilities to be replaced with a different name. Personally, considering how Baruuk's 4 is meant to represent him being pushed to the limit after taking a lot of hits, I think the name should reflect this, and could perhaps have some vaguely religious/mystic connotations considering his theme as a warrior monk. Examples:

• Retribution
• Retaliate
• Breaking Point

As for his syandana, I think the solution is equally simple: just give it to Wukong, perhaps in his Deluxe pack. He's been sorely lacking in the tail department, and players have been asking for one since his release. The move could effectively kill two birds with one stone, avoiding potential PR problems while giving the fans what they've always wanted. This would require a new syandana or other cosmetic to be designed for Baruuk, but there's plenty of room for exploration here, as he could easily be given some sort of mystical artifact to carry, as part of his monk garb.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Teridax68

[EinheriarJudith]

26 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

~snip~

like i told him. GL with that. either they change it or dont. this frame does not embody that culture. it most certainly doesn't describe the culture or its people. 

[Gandergear]

People who get offended over a descriptive word due to incidental or dated connotations aren't only ignorant of the ideas of communication but also actively seek to destroy the working vocabulary of the English language, 1984 style.

 

Double plus ungood, comrade!

Edited December 17, 2018 by Gandergear
I decided to bubblewrap the content slightly so the mods won't get offended too

[(PSN)negativ21]

1 hour ago, Gandergear said:

People who get offended over a descriptive word due to incidental or dated connotations aren't only ignorant of the ideas of communication but also actively seek to destroy the working vocabulary of the English language, 1984 style.

Care to elaborate?

I personally am not offended. Rather it's the fact that people exist in this day and age who are not capable of seeing the larger effect of certain things and their meaning, as if you do something and it's not influenced by or influencing anything else. Large scale, not small scale, which an MMO like WF has the potential for. 

Also lol at the incidental/dated business. This one might be a lost cause. You might be surprised how many people the term is still relevant for. 

[Gandergear]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

Care to elaborate?

I personally am not offended. Rather it's the fact that people exist in this day and age who are not capable of seeing the larger effect of certain things and their meaning, as if you do something and it's not influenced by or influencing anything else. Large scale, not small scale, which an MMO like WF has the potential for. 

Also lol at the incidental/dated business. This one might be a lost cause. You might be surprised how many people the term is still relevant for. 

Since you didn't bother elaborating on what you'd like me to elaborate on..

1a. The modern version of the word is from 1300-1400 to describe anything wild, undomesticated, or untamed, a perfect word to describe Scandinavians, not Africans

1b. The Latin root of the word means "From the woods", perfect for describing the Normans and Goths and anyone the Roman empire didn't particularly care for, again, the Roman empire? Not that big in Central Africa.

2. The last 5000 times I've heard the word savage it's been out of the mouth of a 12 year old or drunk college student commenting on an insult. I suppose if you go to /pol/ and believe S***posts because you believe everything you read on the internet, more power to you I guess.

3. Words only have power that you allow them to hold over you, are you seriously going to believe that the word Savagery on a character who feels more inspired by asian/indian monk tropes than Sudanese culture (which is ethnically Arabic, not African), heck Baruuk's man bun basically only has roots in Sikh, Shinto, and Navajo tradition. Did DE just incorrectly state the inspiration on a semi-scripted livestream? Probably.

4. Savagery makes sense as the archetype is the gentle pacifist who gets pushed over the edge into a savage state, where savage is being used in a literal sense.

[(PSN)negativ21]

2 hours ago, Gandergear said:

Since you didn't bother elaborating on what you'd like me to elaborate on..

1a. The modern version of the word is from 1300-1400 to describe anything wild, undomesticated, or untamed, a perfect word to describe Scandinavians, not Africans

1b. The Latin root of the word means "From the woods", perfect for describing the Normans and Goths and anyone the Roman empire didn't particularly care for, again, the Roman empire? Not that big in Central Africa.

2. The last 5000 times I've heard the word savage it's been out of the mouth of a 12 year old or drunk college student commenting on an insult. I suppose if you go to /pol/ and believe S***posts because you believe everything you read on the internet, more power to you I guess.

3. Words only have power that you allow them to hold over you, are you seriously going to believe that the word Savagery on a character who feels more inspired by asian/indian monk tropes than Sudanese culture (which is ethnically Arabic, not African), heck Baruuk's man bun basically only has roots in Sikh, Shinto, and Navajo tradition. Did DE just incorrectly state the inspiration on a semi-scripted livestream? Probably.

4. Savagery makes sense as the archetype is the gentle pacifist who gets pushed over the edge into a savage state, where savage is being used in a literal sense.

Fine. I didn't elaborate because I wasn't really sure on what you were trying to say or focus on, so I wanted to leave it up to you to decide what was important. 

1a/1b) True I guess, but I still don't really understand what this has to do with this debate and us now, mainly when either of these aren't really commonly known facts.  Feel free not to elaborate on this one if you don't want to. 

2) I can tell you the usage of term savage in the context in debate isn't outmoded or anything. It and similar terms are still very much relevant in some circles. And the past effects of its utilization, as was said, to dehumanize colonized countries populations was almost hilariously effective in justifying their horrific treatment. And the identification of such usage was important for a lot of things relevant to Africans or any affected races (this includes half of Asia), including fighting back discrimination. I honestly don't know what /pol/ is, but Im not gonna justify to you where I learned what I know. If you wanna attack that go ahead. 

3) I agree on the monk thing eliciting more Asian cultures than African. But I really hope you aren't so much of an idealist that when you say "Words only have power that you allow them to hold over you", you actually think this applies to a significant degree to the population. For most people, unless its directly relevant to them, they will give no gafs about what power it holds. 

4) This is true, but for me at least that's not what was in question. Whether its fitting or not (given that there are other just as viable terms), it has unavoidable and legitimate negative connotations which should not be ignored.  

I think maybe, overall, you are giving people too much credit my friend. 

[Gandergear]

13 hours ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

2) I can tell you the usage of term savage in the context in debate isn't outmoded or anything. It and similar terms are still very much relevant in some circles. And the past effects of its utilization, as was said, to dehumanize colonized countries populations was almost hilariously effective in justifying their horrific treatment. And the identification of such usage was important for a lot of things relevant to Africans or any affected races (this includes half of Asia), including fighting back discrimination. I honestly don't know what /pol/ is, but Im not gonna justify to you where I learned what I know. If you wanna attack that go ahead. 

3) I agree on the monk thing eliciting more Asian cultures than African. But I really hope you aren't so much of an idealist that when you say "Words only have power that you allow them to hold over you", you actually think this applies to a significant degree to the population. For most people, unless its directly relevant to them, they will give no gafs about what power it holds. 

4) This is true, but for me at least that's not what was in question. Whether its fitting or not (given that there are other just as viable terms), it has unavoidable and legitimate negative connotations which should not be ignored.  

I think maybe, overall, you are giving people too much credit my friend. 

2. I would like to see where people still use the outmoded ues of savage from an imperialistic perspective, yeah.

3. Yes I do believe that phrase applies to a significant degree of the population, since the majority of people don't complain about words

4. I am capable of ignoring the connotations, and seeing how the thread's only got 2 pages of posts the common forum goers don't seem to have a problem with it

Yes I do give people too much credit not to be offended, I enjoy reading old science fiction stories, great stories, lots of dated societal themes and politics, am I going to attempt to ban Farnham's Freehold from bookstores because Heinlein can't write a decent female character to save his life or that his views on African culture are so amusingly from the 1940's? No. Would I still recommend the book to anyone who likes science fiction? Yeah, because the rest of the work stands up regardless. Art, whether video games or books, are a reflection of the authors' perspectives, ideologies, politics, and all sorts of other things that are in someones mind, attaching onto a singular word choice in an ability that people will read maybe 4 times ever is so much more pedantic than focusing on the overarching themes of the work. Especially in a game where you continuously kidnap people, torture them for an unknown amount of time, and then dispose of them like a used napkin so that way you can crack open a relic and get a gun receiver. (Capture missions are whack yo)

[(PSN)negativ21]

2 hours ago, Gandergear said:

2. I would like to see where people still use the outmoded ues of savage from an imperialistic perspective, yeah.

3. Yes I do believe that phrase applies to a significant degree of the population, since the majority of people don't complain about words

4. I am capable of ignoring the connotations, and seeing how the thread's only got 2 pages of posts the common forum goers don't seem to have a problem with it

 

This is going no where fast. You don't seem to be getting my point. 2) Not imperialistic. The rest of that line you quoted states the rest of the relevant areas of usage that I meant. And there are a LOT there. 3) Not complaining about something doesn't mean lack of significance bro. That's like me not complaining about lack of content = no problem. A bit exaggerated but the main idea is true. Anyway, seeing as a fair portion of this games population is not mature (see region chat) and most clan drama, and the rest are not perfect, I think ur being pretty hopeful, which is interesting. The ability to filter ones thoughts from detrimental words ideas is a skill which everyone gains over their lifetimes, a skill which builds on relevance to that person (which makes sense), and generally grows with age/experience/maturity. So I hope you can see what I mean. 4) Well the amount of attention its getting is irrelevant. That doesn't make it a non-issue just reduces the optics. Again, you may be able to, but that's no guarantee for anyone else in my experience. 

This para seems to be about the detraction of the frame and all its effort and work over one name. But we aren't doing that. We love the idea (at least I do) just change the name. It wouldn't even have that great of an effect, because, as you say, its just a name. Also no one is asking to censor or cancel the frame. Its just a name change bro. 

Anyway, saying that this is a non-issue is because its "just a word" and "people can filter" are both reductive ways to look at the main point. And they are both subjective. Its just a word to an individual, or an individual can filter. But the issue here (that wording and connotations have such impacts) has literally been researched and proven to be a thing in much more mundane contexts than a MMO video game. 

[9-Breaker]

Let's suggest some new ultimate name for baruuk fourth ability. Imma call it Judgement. xD

[(PSN)negativ21]

1 hour ago, 9-Breaker said:

Let's suggest some new ultimate name for baruuk fourth ability. Imma call it Judgement. xD

I like Wrath. Keeps the anger/retribution feel. 

[hukurokuju5]

taunt mechanic would be amazing on him..

[9-Breaker]

Aoe taunt around him? Forces enemies to go melee when he uses his fourth.

[Teridax68]

Looks like DE did in fact take heed and give his 4 a different name. Crisis averted!

[MasterBurik]

5 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Looks like DE did in fact take heed and give his 4 a different name. Crisis averted!

Or, you know...all the names were placeholders to begin with. No heed to be paid if they were already going to be changed.

[CritFumble]

24 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

Or, you know...all the names were placeholders to begin with. No heed to be paid if they were already going to be changed.

whatever the reason im just super glad its changed :) they seemed fairly final about the naming in devstream 120 as they listed off the abilities one at a time and gave them their own space, if they were obviously placeholder i probably wouldn't have made this thread.

thanks for talking guys i get there's mixed opinions about this but i think we can all be happy with the change whatever the reason because serene storm is a way cooler name anyway. 

 

[9-Breaker]

I found the best word...Retaliation?

 

[m0b1us1]

1 hour ago, CritFumble said:

whatever the reason im just super glad its changed 🙂 they seemed fairly final about the naming in devstream 120 as they listed off the abilities one at a time and gave them their own space, if they were obviously placeholder i probably wouldn't have made this thread.

thanks for talking guys i get there's mixed opinions about this but i think we can all be happy with the change whatever the reason because serene storm is a way cooler name anyway. 

 

You still are just being hyper sensitive. Like I said before, there is absolutely no reason to stir up conflict when there is no value in it. If you refuse to see a word any other way than what you think, then you are the problem. Not the word. Think of it like this. I now believe the world "fumble" is bad because it was once used to describe how a friend of mine moved after he lost his leg in combat. Now everything that uses the word "fumble" must be changed. My friend isn't bothered by the word, but it should still be changed. So when will you change your name?

See how narrow minded that is? See how I could take nearly every word with any kind of negative meaning and refuse to see it any other way then demand it be changed? I refuse to believe the majority of people have egg shell skulls.

If you watched the stream, DE did infact say the passive and ability names were place holders. 

All of you need to grow some skin and not get worked up over your own opinions and trivial words.