Jump to content

I don’t really trust third parties...


(NSW)Gregory
 Share

Recommended Posts

I know this is a...sensitive topic, but...

I mean, I know this is going to affect all moderation, not just chat, but probably here on the forum as well. I haven’t exactly been secretive when it comes to my feelings about the forum moderators here and how they do their job. (tl’dr, I’m not a fan)

But I’ve been on countless other forums, and they do it soooooo much worse. Either too stringent, or too lax, or too biased/chummy with certain users, selective in who they enforce the rules with...etc. etc. so on and so forth.

I don’t know whether them consulting with “professional” moderators is going to be an improvement or an absolute disaster...but the cynic/realist in me is leaning towards the latter...the idealist is saying, hey, at least they’re actually trying to do something to better the situation...and we ought to be grateful for that.

I mean, I’m a conservative hating progressive, I’ve cut off family because they thought being gay was a sin, or just “didn’t agree with it” (the fudge does that even mean? 😂) so I’m already in strong agreement with the current moderators on most issues- except making gay a banned word, because that was inexcusable, I don’t care about the reasons, just no.

Like, not allowing slurs is fine, reasonable even, and calling transgendered or non-gender conforming people “traps” is definitely a slur, and nobody should be using that kind of language, period. But the chat bot is lazy and flawed, and if you ask me we would benefit from a more...human touch. Someone capable of recognizing context and intent.

I don’t know, I’m just worried the forums will become an (even more) unwelcoming place. I’ve had plenty of threads locked after being derailed/devolved into bickering and arguing and insulting, and most people think a lot of ill of me because of it. 

I’m kind of accustomed to being perceived as the one in the wrong whenever conflict arises, whether it’s true or not. And yet despite that, despite being dragged into the center of so much negativity, I’ve never so much as gotten a warning.

Maybe because they recognize that I’m just very brash and tactless, not ill spirited, or maybe Canadians really are just too nice. Jk jk. But honestly, I’d rather not have one of those forums where every other post gets you a 7 day ban...or any bit of bitterness or critisism expressed gets silenced/punished.

These are just my feelings on the matter. It’s either going to help or hurt the community. Fingers crossed for a good outcome, and again, at least they’re trying to make positive changes. We were angry when they were doing nothing, accusing them of just “waiting for it to blow over”. Now we’re angry that they’re actually seeking guidance on how to best address the issues/change things? That they’re finally taking moderation seriously enough that they’re actually getting outside help? Naw. We gotta cut them some slack.

But that don’t mean I ain’t worried. 😓

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They need help.

I actually did some searching last night to learn more about what was happening, and .. oh boy .. the kind of stuff I've seen and read about the moderators, guides of the lotus, partners and other related stuff .. what a mess.

They need to do something about it, not only to fix the underlying issues, but also to clean their image, since ultimately it's DE's responsibility.

Doesn't look like their strategy to deal with the community ( mostly chat and forums moderation ) has been working at all, in fact, the impression I get form all this is that it has been a degradation and subsequent negative impact pretty much constantly over time.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From what I've read, the intention is for the external team to overlook and review current procedures with regards to chat moderation. 

I doubt forum moderation comes under it, and I personally wouldn't want forum moderation reviewed until I was comfortable with it.

If DE are comfortable with the current forum moderation, I'll eat another hat. Not from a "help help I'm being abused" standpoint, but from a "why is this thread still up, it's been 4 hours" stance.

I suspect the forums will continue as they are for some time.

On 2018-12-08 at 2:39 PM, (NSW)Gregory said:

Maybe because they recognize that I’m just very brash and tactless

I'm so tempted to meme this bit...

Edited by DeMonkey
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm so tempted to meme this bit...

giphy.gif
 

1 minute ago, kgabor said:

Actually this slang word came from anime to describe boys who naturally look like girls and vice versa and have nothing to do with people with gender dysphoria so no, banning the word is as unreasonable as it gets and some dheads using it as if it was a slur doesn't make it any more reasonable either.

Accordong to Urban Dictionary we should ban all words by this logic.

But it's better to not waste much energy in writing long posts because they are all deleted or locked anyways like anything criticizing moderation on this forum.

I’m well aware of the origin. It’s entirely transphobic nonetheless. You have to look at the nuances and history to really understand.

The actual meaning and origin of the N word has nothing to do with African Americans, for example, but for reasons obvious to those who aren’t ignorant (ignorant being the original meaning, funnily enough) we just don’t say that word.

Don’t want to turn this into an argument though, simply because I doubt either one of us is going to convince the other of anything.

21 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

From what I've read, the intention is for the external team to overlook review current procedures with regards to chat moderation. 

I doubt forum moderation comes under it, and I personally wouldn't want forum moderation reviewed until I was comfortable with it.

If DE are comfortable with the current forum moderation, I'll eat another hat. Not from a "help help I'm being abused" standpoint, but from a "why is this thread still up, it's been 4 hours" stance.

I suspect the forums will continue as they are for some time.

I don’t know, what they said in the devstream kinda implied it would go beyond just chat.

But idk. Maybe I’m worried for nothing, but I’m worried nonetheless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, (NSW)Evilpricetag said:

Weirdly enough I recall it being far worse at one point on these forums, which actually was one reason I strayed away from the game entirely. 

Basically this hopefully will never happen.

 

Yeah, DCUO was like that.

Anyone who criticized the game, fairly or not, got banned. Sometimes 7 days, sometimes permanently banned from the forum, and sometimes banned from all SOE/Daybreak games, period- banned account, all purchases gone, etc.

And the only person you could argue your case to was Mepps.

And Mepps was power tripping like crazy. Probably still is. He once banned everyone in a thread, because they had announced a new DLC would be coming out a certain month so a number of people got all access membership for it, but then the DLC never came out...so like, they felt understandably cheated. Made a forum post, others joined in agreeing, everyone banned. 🤷‍♂️ And he even tried to be funny about it.

I’ve lived through that kind of “moderation” and that’s exactly what I’m afraid of.

Warframe seems cool though. Quite Shallow, for example, is real chummy with Reb and Megan, even though she’s harshly critical of the game. Like, that’s her shtick. It really speaks to DE’s ability to take criticism, especially when compared to my experiences with DCUO’s team...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how feasible this would be for DE, but for Elder Scrolls Online, their mods rarely close threads (unless the original post is outright against the TOS). Instead, they temporarily lock it and delete any posts that were against the TOS and then the thread is reopened for business. It seems to work fairly well for them. It certainly feels crummy when you have a thread get locked because certain people in the community don't have a civil bone in their body.

Edited by IntheCoconut
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

I'm not sure how feasible this would be for DE, but for Elder Scrolls Online, their mods rarely close threads (unless the original post is outright against the TOS). Instead, they temporarily lock it and delete any posts that were against the TOS and then the thread is reopened for business. It seems to work fairly well for them. It certainly feels crummy when you have a thread get locked because certain people in the community don't have a civil bone in their body.

The mods used to do this but, I think stopped due to the influx of forum users and lack of mods. 

It's a lengthy process to clean a thread with the intent of reopening it, the mod has to read every post and decide what is within context of the topic, derailment, etc. And since DE hasnt brought on any new mods in over a year (that I know of) and we have about 3 million forum users...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, (NSW)Gregory said:

I know this is a...sensitive topic, but...

I mean, I know this is going to affect all moderation, not just chat, but probably here on the forum as well. I haven’t exactly been secretive when it comes to my feelings about the forum moderators here and how they do their job. (tl’dr, I’m not a fan)

But I’ve been on countless other forums, and they do it soooooo much worse. Either too stringent, or too lax, or too biased/chummy with certain users, selective in who they enforce the rules with...etc. etc. so on and so forth.

I don’t know whether them consulting with “professional” moderators is going to be an improvement or an absolute disaster...but the cynic/realist in me is leaning towards the latter...the idealist is saying, hey, at least they’re actually trying to do something to better the situation...and we ought to be grateful for that.

I mean, I’m a conservative hating progressive, I’ve cut off family because they thought being gay was a sin, or just “didn’t agree with it” (the fudge does that even mean? 😂) so I’m already in strong agreement with the current moderators on most issues- except making gay a banned word, because that was inexcusable, I don’t care about the reasons, just no.

Like, not allowing slurs is fine, reasonable even, and calling transgendered or non-gender conforming people “traps” is definitely a slur, and nobody should be using that kind of language, period. But the chat bot is lazy and flawed, and if you ask me we would benefit from a more...human touch. Someone capable of recognizing context and intent.

I don’t know, I’m just worried the forums will become an (even more) unwelcoming place. I’ve had plenty of threads locked after being derailed/devolved into bickering and arguing and insulting, and most people think a lot of ill of me because of it. 

I’m kind of accustomed to being perceived as the one in the wrong whenever conflict arises, whether it’s true or not. And yet despite that, despite being dragged into the center of so much negativity, I’ve never so much as gotten a warning.

Maybe because they recognize that I’m just very brash and tactless, not ill spirited, or maybe Canadians really are just too nice. Jk jk. But honestly, I’d rather not have one of those forums where every other post gets you a 7 day ban...or any bit of bitterness or critisism expressed gets silenced/punished.

These are just my feelings on the matter. It’s either going to help or hurt the community. Fingers crossed for a good outcome, and again, at least they’re trying to make positive changes. We were angry when they were doing nothing, accusing them of just “waiting for it to blow over”. Now we’re angry that they’re actually seeking guidance on how to best address the issues/change things? That they’re finally taking moderation seriously enough that they’re actually getting outside help? Naw. We gotta cut them some slack.

But that don’t mean I ain’t worried. 😓

This is your problem. Chill. 

You don't need to talk about certain things to certain people. You don't need to cut off family because they have different opinions than you. You shouldn't hate conservatives simply because they're conservatives. I'll rephrase that. You shouldn't hate conservatives simply because you're a progressive. That's always strange anyways. What is progressive about hating? 

Anyways, why would you be brash and tactless...and somehow concerned about stuff like this at the same time? Just go all the way and completely stop caring or you could just CHILL. None of this is that serious. Warframe is a fun game. Where does politics and hate fit in? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

One thing is for certain: this forum definitely needs help on the moderation front

I disagree. The Forum moderation is pretty good most of the time. There are lines that they don't allow us to cross, and they're usually pretty clearly drawn. 

I don't always agree on where that line should be, but I understand that it's not my house, so my rules don't need to apply. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I disagree. The Forum moderation is pretty good most of the time. There are lines that they don't allow us to cross, and they're usually pretty clearly drawn. 

I don't always agree on where that line should be, but I understand that it's not my house, so my rules don't need to apply. 

The quality of moderation  is outstanding but they do need help on the numbers front. 

As far as I know, we haven't had any new moderators in a year and their numbers are below 30, last I checked, which means what, 1 moderator to several hundred forumites, across over a dozen sub forums and languages? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2018-12-08 at 12:05 PM, BL4CKN0ISE said:

This is your problem. Chill. 

You don't need to talk about certain things to certain people. You don't need to cut off family because they have different opinions than you. You shouldn't hate conservatives simply because they're conservatives. I'll rephrase that. You shouldn't hate conservatives simply because you're a progressive. That's always strange anyways. What is progressive about hating? 

Anyways, why would you be brash and tactless...and somehow concerned about stuff like this at the same time? Just go all the way and completely stop caring or you could just CHILL. None of this is that serious. Warframe is a fun game. Where does politics and hate fit in? 

Politics play a part in everything, I’m afraid. Even online gaming communities.

Politics basically encompass everything that matters- the economy, law & government, social fairness and equality.

Nezha is a Warframe in this game, who happens to defy gender norms. As a result, Nezha is referred to insensitively as a “trap”. Because this is a game, and everyone is expected to respect one another, the word was banned.

The moment a debate about whether it’s right or a slur to use this term started, it became political. It’s just how things work. Only those who aren’t affected by politics (or just think they aren’t, because really- we all are) can afford to avoid discussions about it.

As for me “chilling”- my own sister, my closest family, my flesh and blood, hates homosexuals. Hates me. Thinks it’s a sin, an abomination against all that is good and decent. She once called me a f***ot. So yes. I cut her out of my life, but not before having long discussions about why her “beliefs” are such an affront to me. Naturally, she didn’t listen, and instead viewed it as an attack against her faith.

So I guess you could say what I’m really saying is that I hate hateful backwards people who probably want me dead or living as a second class citizen or in a camp somewhere being tortured *cough* “cured” *cough* for something that’s beyond my control.

Make sense? I think it’s a perfectly fair reason to hate someone. But that’s just me. 🤷‍♂️ So yes. I have very little chill when it comes to these matters. I hope you can understand where I’m coming from.

On 2018-12-08 at 11:53 AM, Gwyndolin-chan said:

 

Okay, on topic: I think the third party will help with, if anything, making the rules more clear and provide a better route for escalating moderator action.

Very educational video.

I knew about certain things, like the trans panic defense, but I learned a few new things too.

On 2018-12-08 at 11:37 AM, IntheCoconut said:

I'm not sure how feasible this would be for DE, but for Elder Scrolls Online, their mods rarely close threads (unless the original post is outright against the TOS). Instead, they temporarily lock it and delete any posts that were against the TOS and then the thread is reopened for business. It seems to work fairly well for them. It certainly feels crummy when you have a thread get locked because certain people in the community don't have a civil bone in their body.

This has been my one and only problem with moderation. The one thing that always irked me about them. So many threads locked, conversations prematurely ended, because of a select few. 

Maybe they’re doing a poor job because they are understaffed, but...they’re doing a poor job regardless. They may have a reason, a perfectly valid one for it at that, but the end result is the same.

But again- aside from that, they’re much better than so many other forums I’ve been on, and I just hope outside influences don’t screw up all the right they do.

Edited by Cleesus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to weigh in on anything in this topic one way or the other, but shouldn't this be under Off-topic as its related to something not Warframe related?

I mean its related to the community OF the game, but more a basis of the forums not the game and some of these posts have nothing to do with the game proper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'm not going to weigh in on anything in this topic one way or the other, but shouldn't this be under Off-topic as its related to something not Warframe related?

I mean its related to the community OF the game, but more a basis of the forums not the game and some of these posts have nothing to do with the game proper.

It also pertains to the game chat, an aspect within the game.

And a community is a part of the game, and a rather integral one at that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said:

You don't need to talk about certain things to certain people. You don't need to cut off family because they have different opinions than you. You shouldn't hate conservatives simply because they're conservatives. I'll rephrase that. You shouldn't hate conservatives simply because you're a progressive. That's always strange anyways. What is progressive about hating?  

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

People's actions and patterns of behaviour are informed by their opinions, beliefs, knowledge, and truths.

No one ever cuts family off for having a different opinion. Ever. I would go so far as to claim it has never happened nor will happen ever.

When biological nuclear family members cut ties, I've only ever seen it because of patterns of behaviours.

A family member's opinion that all ___ should be executed or gassed or are diseased or disappeared or hidden away under the rug figuratively speaking informs their pattern of behaviour.

I hope this illustrates either why your statement is an extreme simplification or why you are outrigt wrong. Very few of us humans want to spend time around other humans who we know utterly despises us or believes us to be someone we're not, because these opinions transform people's attitudes and actions and little social cues that expose their hatred.

Also: a tolerant society need not tolerate intolerance.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

People's actions and patterns of behaviour are informed by their opinions, beliefs, knowledge, and truths.

No one ever cuts family off for having a different opinion. Ever. I would go so far as to claim it has never happened nor will happen ever.

When biological nuclear family members cut ties, I've only ever seen it because of patterns of behaviours.

A family member's opinion that all ___ should be executed or gassed or are diseased or disappeared or hidden away under the rug figuratively speaking informs their pattern of behaviour.

I hope this illustrates either why your statement is an extreme simplification or why you are outrigt wrong. Very few of us humans want to spend time around other humans who we know utterly despises us or believes us to be someone we're not, because these opinions transform people's attitudes and actions and little social cues that expose their hatred.

Also: a tolerant society need not tolerate intolerance.

 

Not going to say anything other than this, fighting fire with fire makes the whole world burn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

And I don't really trust you tbh.. 

giphy.gif

6 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

People's actions and patterns of behaviour are informed by their opinions, beliefs, knowledge, and truths.

No one ever cuts family off for having a different opinion. Ever. I would go so far as to claim it has never happened nor will happen ever.

When biological nuclear family members cut ties, I've only ever seen it because of patterns of behaviours.

A family member's opinion that all ___ should be executed or gassed or are diseased or disappeared or hidden away under the rug figuratively speaking informs their pattern of behaviour.

I hope this illustrates either why your statement is an extreme simplification or why you are outrigt wrong. Very few of us humans want to spend time around other humans who we know utterly despises us or believes us to be someone we're not, because these opinions transform people's attitudes and actions and little social cues that expose their hatred.

Also: a tolerant society need not tolerate intolerance.

 

Darn tootin’!

giphy.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, MagPrime said:

The quality of moderation  is outstanding but they do need help on the numbers front. 

As far as I know, we haven't had any new moderators in a year and their numbers are below 30, last I checked, which means what, 1 moderator to several hundred forumites, across over a dozen sub forums and languages? 

I'm not disagreeing with adding to the number, just saying that they're doing a good job with their methods and policies. 👍

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forum Moderation is fine as it is, at least for english General discussion. Only Thing thats slightly annoying me is Mods some Time closing Threads without Reasoning. Please if a mod is Reading, just write at least a Single sentence why the Thread was closed. Most of Time, thats the Case but sometimes it misses.

And regarding ingame, imo chatmoderation Made "Nezha is a trap" into a ongoing meme. They could have just Let it die Off, instead they put those words into a Spot where most People dont even use them as transphobic slurs, but rather as a way to Trigger the bot (and then complaint about it) (Kinetic Siphon says hi). While Keeping Chat Clean is important, its also constantly having to decide which is the lesser of Two evils. And banning the word gay is to me something that in the long run hits gay people harder than slurring idiots. Not mentioning that DE is literally Partnered with someone called A Gay guy plays

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Eisdschungel said:

And banning the word gay is to me something that in the long run hits gay people harder than slurring idiots. Not mentioning that DE is literally Partnered with someone called A Gay guy plays

The irony was, they were doing it because people would use the word as an insult or profanity, but by making it a banned word, they were inadvertently doing the exact same thing! 😂 Turning it into a profanity.

Blanket banning the word gay was probably the most ridiculous thing moderation ever did, and yeah- a lot of gay people got banned from chat for talking about themselves. I bet some were baited into it too, knowing region chat, not knowing the words were banned.
 

4 hours ago, Eisdschungel said:

Forum Moderation is fine as it is, at least for english General discussion. Only Thing thats slightly annoying me is Mods some Time closing Threads without Reasoning. Please if a mod is Reading, just write at least a Single sentence why the Thread was closed. Most of Time, thats the Case but sometimes it misses.

Even when there’s a reason (although believe me, that irks me too) it’s usually pretty obviously because the thread had derailed and devolved, and they were too lazy (or understaffed, whatever) to get it back on track, to warn & trim the disruptive posters.

Although not always. I’ve had some threads snipped prematurely. Nothing saying “thread was locked by ___” or any reason why given. Just *click* locked after a few posts. 😤 

4 hours ago, Eisdschungel said:

And regarding ingame, imo chatmoderation Made "Nezha is a trap" into a ongoing meme. They could have just Let it die Off, instead they put those words into a Spot where most People dont even use them as transphobic slurs, but rather as a way to Trigger the bot (and then complaint about it) (Kinetic Siphon says hi). While Keeping Chat Clean is important, its also constantly having to decide which is the lesser of Two evils.

While I don’t agree with blanket banning the word trap, because that’s just impractical with actual traps in the game (pressure plates triggering lasers, Vauban’s kit, Kinetic Siphon traps) I still think it was the right thing to take an official stance against that kinda language.

The “ignore them and they’ll get bored and go away” method of moderation that you propose is kinda...ehhh...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...