Fortuna: Hotfix 24.1.4

[Kromatia]

2 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

Now, I get your point.  If the systems are clear, and you do something which is clearly an exploit, you should get banned.  While I don't agree, I get where you are coming from.  The counter argument is simple, DE changes everything with such regularity that an "exploit" might only be an exploit once they define it as such.  This is a slippery slope argument, where a harsh reaction sets forward a precedent of dealing with players unilaterally never gives them an opportunity to play without fear of a ban.

You can easily play without fear of a ban if you follow the TOS you agreed to when you initially installed the game.

 

2 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

If you've got a handle on the history, skip this paragraph.  If not, strap in.  DE has had multiple instances where a power leveling technique was possible in the system.  Said technique was retroactively determined to be a flaw.  It was then patched.  Nuke Trinity, Sound Quake Banshee, Mesa+Mag+Frost, and many others allowed fast leveling using game systems.  DE found out that players were using these optimal paths, determined them as abusing the system, and applied patches to change them.  Players weren't punished for using the techniques, they were patched out.

 

Now, the problem is the response on this specific issue.  Instead of the same metered response, the ban hammer swings.  If you can identify the exploiters, you presumably can identify the benefits they reaped.  The more aggressive than previous response would have been a patch and roll-back of exploiters.  The previous fix would have been to just patch out the flaw.  What we are seeing now is a ban hammer destroying people because they did something the game allowed.  

If you can't sympathize, then do the math.  Draco would have removed 90%+ of the population.  Other common exploits might have removed the rest.  The only thing I can think is that either someone with too much zeal responded to this, or it was the first time a small slice of "exploiters" was identified early enough that the loss in player count would be acceptable.  Your opposition isn't uniformly asking for a pass, they're asking for a measured response.

The difference between these examples you've provided and the Khora exploit is a simple one. Draco, Trin, Wukong, Frost+Mesa+Mag were completed using completely legal in-game mechanics. The only instance of a bug was perhaps the Wukong bug that had been around for ages. It was an unintentional mechanic, but it still used legal mechanics prior to being patched out. Mag+Frost+Mesa, Trinity and Draco were eventually patched out to try to either rebalance the game or put things back in an appropriate role. Trinity was never meant to be a DPS, but it was such a minor issue that it was simply patched out. Draco - much like Berehenia, Akkad and Hydron now - was changed to hopefully get people playing at more nodes to level. It was a reasonable change to help spread game time across the star map. It worked...sort of. As for Mag+Mesa+Frost, well, that was again patched out because of people camping and not really doing much else. It was a balancing issue more than an exploit. Why do anything but AFK if three of your party members are doing all the work? It's a big reason why I tend to leave matches early when there's an ability spamming Saryn. I don't want to have the game played for me.

Khora, on the other hand, was a legitimate bug that people were exploiting for personal benefit. You had to KNOW about this bug and how to perform it to get it to even function for you. Manipulation of a bug of this kind is called an exploit. You are KNOWINGLY exploiting a flaw in the programming to your personal gain. Sorry, but no. You don't get a pass on this one. It is 100% your fault for doing it. It is not a passive bug that happens by accident and it's quite a bit more serious than an unintended range gain with Wukong due to the equipping of a certain mod.

[master_of_destiny]

10 minutes ago, Kromatia said:

You can easily play without fear of a ban if you follow the TOS you agreed to when you initially installed the game.

 

The difference between these examples you've provided and the Khora exploit is a simple one. Draco, Trin, Wukong, Frost+Mesa+Mag were completed using completely legal in-game mechanics. The only instance of a bug was perhaps the Wukong bug that had been around for ages. It was an unintentional mechanic, but it still used legal mechanics prior to being patched out. Mag+Frost+Mesa, Trinity and Draco were eventually patched out to try to either rebalance the game or put things back in an appropriate role. Trinity was never meant to be a DPS, but it was such a minor issue that it was simply patched out. Draco - much like Berehenia, Akkad and Hydron now - was changed to hopefully get people playing at more nodes to level. It was a reasonable change to help spread game time across the star map. It worked...sort of. As for Mag+Mesa+Frost, well, that was again patched out because of people camping and not really doing much else. It was a balancing issue more than an exploit. Why do anything but AFK if three of your party members are doing all the work? It's a big reason why I tend to leave matches early when there's an ability spamming Saryn. I don't want to have the game played for me.

Khora, on the other hand, was a legitimate bug that people were exploiting for personal benefit. You had to KNOW about this bug and how to perform it to get it to even function for you. Manipulation of a bug of this kind is called an exploit. You are KNOWINGLY exploiting a flaw in the programming to your personal gain. Sorry, but no. You don't get a pass on this one. It is 100% your fault for doing it. It is not a passive bug that happens by accident and it's quite a bit more serious than an unintended range gain with Wukong due to the equipping of a certain mod.

I don't even understand.

 

Read the ToS and EULA.  I'll wait.  Note that you don't get a say in anything and have no means to appeal.  Also note the terminology indemnifying them from any payment issues, even if you can prove it was done falsely.  That's one hefty bit of legal armor.  Most importantly, note DE can change the rules at any time and that anyone at DE represents DE.  The legal identification of DE is not one entity, and is subject to whomever is put into power.

Now, answer me a question.  Who determines the nature of an exploit or a feature?  It isn't the community.  How long is an exploit present, before being patched?  I call out Greedy Pull Mag, because there's record of the developers leaving it in for weeks before that feature was "not working as intended" and patched out.  Was it being exploited all of that time?

 

Let's entertain Khora for a moment.  Crack out your patch notes.  When introduced, Venari died a lot.  People didn't resummon because the energy cost was too high for a meat shield that spent more time dead than an ungilded Moa.  After a bunch of complaints, DE changed the mechanic such that Venari would be beefier and spawning didn't have an energy cost.  All of this is documented through a string of patch notes.  Now that we've established history, let's ask when this bug could have started.  My money is on when Khora was patched, which didn't get any attention because they locked her behind a transaction or a grind wall.  So, this bug isn't something introduced in one patch and gone one later.  It's a feature that was not found for months.  Nuke Trinity, Greedy Pull, and other permutations of OP frame powers had similar duration but you want to penalize this one.

 

Allow me to follow your logic through to the end.  Logically, this means Naramon didn't need melee+invisibility patched out and anyone exploiting that needs a ban because it wasn't working as intended.  I'd like to offer you a half dozen more examples of things retroactively defined as "not working as intended," but I'm still having issues with spawning outside of levels years after that was "fixed." 

Let's just leave this as you drawing a line in the sand that I find stupid.  I can't know what DE thinks is an exploit, what is one of their bugs, or what is working as intended.  They don't communicate this, and people vehemently defending them just don't seem to be human.  I'm asking for empathy.  I'm asking to recognize that shouting down people who point out hypocrisy aren't attacking you or DE, they're asking for things to get better.  If you still have a hate-on for anybody who views instant permabans as the nuclear response, fine.  I'm looking forward to the day you eat one.  I hope it's for something that you find not worthy, or something you didn't realize was an exploit because it was not made clear.  

 

If you don't get it yet, let me be clear.  Being able to power level isn't something new in Warframe.  Using systems in place, without any outside influence, is running the game as made available.  If DE wants to say that a flaw in their code allowed something they didn't want, and the result is nuking an account, then what trust do I have they won't flag me for the same?  Maybe I was involved with an exploit which spawned a bunch of rare crates of a specific tile set, and I ground through it.  I didn't bug the game, but I benefited.  Do I get a ban?  More importantly, how do I communicate with the people I know that I ate a ban because...I was unlucky and used an exploit. 

 

I only have to prove that somebody could be innocent, you have to prove everyone eating a ban was malicious.  I met my end of the bargain, but you people calling for heads to roll have done nothing to prove malicious intent from everyone.  Let me concede one point, so you can understand this.  I support a permaban on the person who put the video up.  This was putting a video up, highlighting what they reasonably knew was an exploit, for financial gain (views).  If you respond by making their ban public, rolling back all other peoples' progress, and making the issue clear it'd be a win for DE.  

As of yet, the first post still doesn't highlight the exploit cited.  Zero transparency, swinging the ban hammer with zeal, and not simply being honest is what I find as DE not holding up their end and setting a bad example of how they deal with their players.  Somehow that nuance is missed, which is rich.  Somehow I think if people calling for heads to roll were on the other end it would be a bit more difficult for them to accept.

[ranks21]

7 minutes ago, masterofdetiny said:

Let's just leave this as you drawing a line in the sand that I find stupid.  I can't know what DE thinks is an exploit, what is one of their bugs, or what is working as intended

this right here is the whole gist of the problem for ppl who have a brain.

[master_of_destiny]

50 minutes ago, Kromatia said:

You can easily play without fear of a ban if you follow the TOS you agreed to when you initially installed the game.

 

The difference between these examples you've provided and the Khora exploit is a simple one. Draco, Trin, Wukong, Frost+Mesa+Mag were completed using completely legal in-game mechanics. The only instance of a bug was perhaps the Wukong bug that had been around for ages. It was an unintentional mechanic, but it still used legal mechanics prior to being patched out. Mag+Frost+Mesa, Trinity and Draco were eventually patched out to try to either rebalance the game or put things back in an appropriate role. Trinity was never meant to be a DPS, but it was such a minor issue that it was simply patched out. Draco - much like Berehenia, Akkad and Hydron now - was changed to hopefully get people playing at more nodes to level. It was a reasonable change to help spread game time across the star map. It worked...sort of. As for Mag+Mesa+Frost, well, that was again patched out because of people camping and not really doing much else. It was a balancing issue more than an exploit. Why do anything but AFK if three of your party members are doing all the work? It's a big reason why I tend to leave matches early when there's an ability spamming Saryn. I don't want to have the game played for me.

Khora, on the other hand, was a legitimate bug that people were exploiting for personal benefit. You had to KNOW about this bug and how to perform it to get it to even function for you. Manipulation of a bug of this kind is called an exploit. You are KNOWINGLY exploiting a flaw in the programming to your personal gain. Sorry, but no. You don't get a pass on this one. It is 100% your fault for doing it. It is not a passive bug that happens by accident and it's quite a bit more serious than an unintended range gain with Wukong due to the equipping of a certain mod.

 

Stop.  Seriously, just stop for a second.

To buy your argument I have to change words at random.  I have to change them because you say so.  By some nebulous definition when a thing is patched out sometimes it's balancing and sometimes it's fixing an exploit.  Without a pause, you change the words, so that your narrative works.  If you can define an objective way to label something a balance issue or an exploit then provide it.  It isn't outlined in the EULA or ToS, and that's legal shorthand for "we define words and you don't have the right to have a definition until you drag us to court and have a lawyer poke holes into this contractual obligation."  

 

Go back.  When DE found out about Draco they said it was not working as intended.  They said this was exploiting the system in a way not intended.  They did not have an immediate fix, so later they patched Mag to only help herself and Mesa to have myopia.  They didn't swing the ban hammer and remove everyone, they took a measured response and changed things so that the mechanics matched their vision.  If it isn't clear, I keep citing this because DE did it right.  It proves they can do it right if they want to.

 

What am I asking for?  I ask that the exploit be patched.  I ask for a ban for the individual who posted it with financial gain in mind.  I ask that those who benefited have the benefits stripped.  This is in line with the Draco situation.  What we have observed is zero communication from DE, a nuclear response to something retroactively defined as an exploit, and nothing to indicate this is an isolated instance.  What I want is confidence that DE can deal fairly, and the opportunity is here.  I'm asking that DE takes the opportunity to show that they can deal reasonably, as the current state of chat moderation (as cited in news articles) and old issues are not giving me faith that once DE has reached saturation on all media types they'll be able to stabilize old players leaving to people coming back.  The PS4, OneX, and Switch do an effective job bolstering player count, while hiding that older players often have friend lists where last login for some was 1000+ days ago.

[-Temp0-]

5 часов назад, DeckChairVonBananaCamel сказал:

the video i watched had a guy use a macro to go from 0-30 in 30 seconds (1 min without booster). That's pretty extreme, could you imagine how much focus you could farm???

The issue with overwatch and players just doing nothing to level up and only receiving warnings first, is that it is possible to accidentally do it (lets say you decide to put the bins out before the match starts and accidentally lock yourself out, just one hypothetical situation). And because it is possible to do it accidentally, Blizzard didnt want to deliver bans automatically. DE on the other hand, decided that the number of steps required to perform this exploit (despawn venari, find terrain where venari cannot spawn, press a button half a million times) meant that there was NO possibility that people who abused this glitch could have done it accidentally

well you dont have to spend forma to farm focus, and you dont have to use ESO or Hydron when you can use a macro to "earn" 900,000 affinity in 30 seconds. (22,000 focus with a regular lens)

oh whoops, sorry. i'd misinterpreted it as you being murdered by the embattors, and i was thinking to myself "well i dont know why they think turbulence is gonna help em out" lol

i was also going to cover some other points you made, but i have somehow managed to switch the editor into "type-over" mode (despite there not being any visible option for it) and every time i want to add something in mid-sentence, i have to delete basically everything after that point and type it again, so for my sanity's sake im going to stop, lol

Yall throw a word macro around but macros are allowed in warframe. Granted as always no one in de specified WHAT you can or cant do, leaving it vague af probably in case they would need it for such thing. And I dont even know how much focus you can actually get, doubt it is oh so insane because you have 50 seconds window to do it and once your wf reaches 30 it should STOP in theory, it shouldt be superior to saryn bere spam.

Regardless,its mere affinity. Not platinum, not unobtainable resources, not real money. So again, what did Blizzard did when they found out about experience afk farming that is far more harmful? They warned everyone and left it with that, you could only get banned if you would attempt it after the warning. What did Bungie do when they discoveted an infinite lootcave? They didnt penalize anyone, they patched the thing and made resources you could get by doing so drop with higher chance by playing missions. 

Now what warframe, a beta indie game did for affinity farming ? Perma banned the sht out of everyone for experience farming. Seems reasonable.

No its not fckn possible to accidently do such thing in overwatch, destiny or any other game, just like in warframe you HAVE TO KNOW exactly what youre doing and how so dont try go down that slippery slo 

[ImproperAiming]

On 2018-12-11 at 4:50 AM, MirageKnight said:

If DE wants to be taken seriously and seen as being fair and impartial, said badges should be unequivocally yanked. No exceptions.

Yes, DE should do the same for those power abusive chat mods. 

See the circlejerk now? 

 

Also, DE  need to define "extreme" of the abuse 

[AntiMomentum]

5 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

 

 

What am I asking for?  I ask that the exploit be patched.  I ask for a ban for the individual who posted it with financial gain in mind.  I ask that those who benefited have the benefits stripped.  This is in line with the Draco situation.  What we have observed is zero communication from DE, a nuclear response to something retroactively defined as an exploit, and nothing to indicate this is an isolated instance.  What I want is confidence that DE can deal fairly, and the opportunity is here.  I'm asking that DE takes the opportunity to show that they can deal reasonably, as the current state of chat moderation (as cited in news articles) and old issues are not giving me faith that once DE has reached saturation on all media types they'll be able to stabilize old players leaving to people coming back.  The PS4, OneX, and Switch do an effective job bolstering player count, while hiding that older players often have friend lists where last login for some was 1000+ days ago.

As someone who didn't even do the Khora xp exploit I agree with the solutions offered here. To those who might be biased enough to actually believe that no one would be defending those who used this exploit other than those who did abuse it, feel free to add me in game and see if I get banned for yourself. I don't personally know anyone who did it either, it's a matter of ethics imo.

Now then, people might be assuming a perma-ban is the only way to deal with this and it really is not. If DE can detect those who used it in extreme ways, along with all the player specific Twitch drops and so on, they don't have to automatically just perma-ban. Some exploits ARE more obvious than others, some are also less obvious like the ones mentioned above and in previous posts. There IS a slippy slope despite how obvious this specific exploit may be.

On top of that, you don't necessarily need to buy a ton of Forma with plat to take advantage of this exploit. My main account on console has about 40 forma and a ton of hours because I rarely level weapons I don't like to play Hydron/ESO more than twice maybe 3 times in a row. (Just debunking some previous stand-alone points from earlier posts). All of that forma was gained since before fissures even started and I play practically every day.

Now from what I gathered most of the people crying out for a perma-ban are upset because it gives players a way to level up way faster than intended. I can understand that but if the exploited MR and weapons gained can be reverted then what? You just want to perma-ban them anyways because they used an exploit like so many other have in the past and have admitted to right in this thread intentionally or not? Hell, give em a week ban, a month even (for the khora exploit). But a perma-ban is WAY over the top, especially for this large complex PvE game that has exploits ALL THE TIME and people put a ton of hours in.

DE made the coding mistake, patch it, take away all the weapons and rank gained because of it. They don't have to even look through each person's profile. Just delete any weapon leveled in under 30 seconds or a minute (whatever the time is), roll back the exploited MR on profiles gained from those fast leveled weapons and POOF!

Serv-Pro like it never even happened. This anomalous debate ends, legit players don't get left behind by players who used the exploit (or at least khoras for all we know), and things go back to relatively normal before DE introduced whatever code allowed the exploit in first place. Everyone wins except for the people who seriously abused it who would not only have those weapons deleted but will get a temporary ban. It's not like MR rank is a good indicator of skill anyways so people having a higher MR than they should temporarily really doesn't break the game at all as long as everything obtained by the this exploit gets removed. It just can't happen too often or for too long really.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

Like always happens

People who use bugs/exploits complaining about it being fixed 

[zattez]

Ah i'm probably too late to see the new 50k+ accounts being made from the accounts that were banned. away for awhile and i come back to a mass ban wave. 

[Vanille]

7 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

Let's entertain Khora for a moment.  Crack out your patch notes.  When introduced, Venari died a lot.  People didn't resummon because the energy cost was too high for a meat shield that spent more time dead than an ungilded Moa.  After a bunch of complaints, DE changed the mechanic such that Venari would be beefier and spawning didn't have an energy cost.  All of this is documented through a string of patch notes.  Now that we've established history, let's ask when this bug could have started.  My money is on when Khora was patched, which didn't get any attention because they locked her behind a transaction or a grind wall.  So, this bug isn't something introduced in one patch and gone one later.  It's a feature that was not found for months.  Nuke Trinity, Greedy Pull, and other permutations of OP frame powers had similar duration but you want to penalize this one.

Wukong's range was a bug, Nuke Trinity or other 'permutations of op frame powers' were not. The simple reason why they had similar or even longer duration and weren't penalized is because the game already has a way to do what they were doing but with different frames, so they weren't completely breaking nor bypassing the game mechanics, but all these changes arrived because it finally was abusable in ESO, a mode based on kill/time in which their above-average aoe dmg was way higher than nuke abilities due to dmg output not being from abilities, but weapons instead, being hundred thousands, instantly killing everything. Same thing happened with Chroma being 'bugged' for years, but it broke nothing or made it any different than other warframes and the game mechanics until Eidolons came out and he bypassed it effortlessly. Wukong and Chroma is/was popular for being below average on terms of gameplay, so allowing them to have this amount of power was like a bandaid for them until content abused by them came out.

Now in the other hand, there is no game mechanic to bypass the affinity grind in mere seconds. Yes we have ESO and other fast missions, but that's still not seconds to max something and bypass the grind mechanic. The game offers you an affinity booster if you want to speed things up, this exploit removes the need of said booster and it hurts DE, and in return it would end up hurting us.

[unc00l]

47 minutes ago, -.SP.-G43riel said:

Like always happens

People who use bugs/exploits complaining about it being fixed 

Nobody is complaining about the bug being fixed.  People are complaining about the severity of DE's reaction for something so relatively harmless.

[Jim22]

I don't think perma banning players is a good idea you should give a 1 week suspension or 1 month if it was serious. you should only perma ban a player if they are hacking or hurting your company an exploit that makes you gain affinity in 30-1 minute isn't going to hurt the company. I think DE should rethink how they ban players I have never seen any other games ban players for using an exploit. if its a partnered youtuber they should lose there partnership and get like a 1 week suspension or 1 month.

[--SeekNDstroy--]

If ppl used and explored a cheat/exploit/hacked BAN them, from the casual player to WF Partner, BAN, a violation of TOS is a violation no mater if it was for 1 min or 1h and it doesn't mater if it was a insignificant exploit or a major one.

DE done in the past for ppl that cheated = BAN; ppl that used exploits = BAN and ppl that hacked the game = BAN; why the hell should it be different this time ppl used it, ppl exploited it, ppl show other on how to do it should be BAN, period (From the casual player up to WF Partner)

BAN the ip not just the account.

 

 

[Graavarg]

15 hours ago, masterofdetiny said:

Stop for a moment.  Take a deep breath.  Be human.

It's only a question of how long before I unwittingly do something you consider an exploit. 

... and I do support penalizing people who used the exploit.  Penalizing in terms of a finite ban and walk-back of gains is a metered response, perma bans are not.

Had to leave the first line in (it is the most important one).

Using an exploit like this is like going into someone's house and taking stuff for yourself, because the door was unlocked (or did not even have a lock). Just because you can do it doesn't mean that it is allowed and/or ok, and if you are a functioning human being you are aware of this. "Unwittingly" is not a word that can be applied to the Khora affinity exploit...

. . .

With the moral and ethical definition out of the way ("using the Khora exploit was clearly and definitely wrong"), the response and possible clemency/mercy from DE's side is a separate question. And a more complex one, as rules, just as laws, also need to have a preemptive effect. Which basically means scaring people from committing the crimes/exploits by making the punishment harsh enough. From this viewpoint, just getting your character booted back to where it was a couple of weeks ago is clearly not enough.

Then there is the general principle of offenders paying the economic consequences of their actions. Lets say DE would decide to be merciful and just put in a monthly ban (or something), but that it takes a DE operative (🙂) a couple of hours to go through a player's data, find the exploit and change stats and generally "fix things" back to normal. This is a lot more complex than it sounds, including focus, MR leveling, buying MR-locked gear, getting drops with your exploit-levelled weapons etc. Should the player then pay this cost? Should paying this cost be required for reinstatement? Should the player be forced to pay this cost, through legal means? After all, a couple of hours of programmers salary + the normal additional costs might easily be more money than the player has put into the game altogether. And what about players that are juvenile, and the complexity of legislation in many countries around the world?

Simply banning a player that knowingly breaks the contract he/she accepted is an easy and functional solution, a kind of one size fits all. You also have the option of appealing the decision (and basically asking for mercy). And there is a gray area, because it is possible that a player could trigger this just desperately trying to summon his/her kavat while standing in a place where it is not possible. Then again, repeating this multiple times and claiming "honest mistake" just isn't feasible (especially if you get more stuff to level the same way).

I do agree with you that DE could show a little mercy, considering the severity of a permaban against the amount of time & energy some players have put into the game and the deliberate and incredible stupidity of gamers thinking they can use such an exploit and not be caught out. And, to be honest, I could have been that stupid myself, just blindly seeing "the possibilities" combined with the "wow"-feeling of "hyper-leveling" (as I said: deliberate stupidity). But that is not a defense and mercy is up to DE. Who, btw, is not in the wrong here.

[trunks013]

40 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Then there is the general principle of offenders paying the economic consequences of their actions. Lets say DE would decide to be merciful and just put in a monthly ban (or something), but that it takes a DE operative (🙂) a couple of hours to go through a player's data, find the exploit and change stats and generally "fix things" back to normal. This is a lot more complex than it sounds, including focus, MR leveling, buying MR-locked gear, getting drops with your exploit-levelled weapons etc.

Actualy this is the important part in my eyes.

thats why i talked about a rollback. Its not a light as you think it is you may not have understood well what a rollback is in this situation.

They actualy need to find the first moment where you did the exploit and rollback there the " just getting your character booted back to where it was a couple of weeks ago is clearly not enough." Lose the grip right there because you actualy lose all progress with those weapons, or any other weapons , or any other drops or any purchase. 

The account just become exactly what it was at the first attemps. So basicly the tenno just lost all those exploit time but also all the legit time he made after or in between the exploit. Its not that light.

 

[trunks013]

2 hours ago, --SeekNDstroy-- said:

If ppl used and explored a cheat/exploit/hacked BAN them, from the casual player to WF Partner, BAN, a violation of TOS is a violation no mater if it was for 1 min or 1h and it doesn't mater if it was a insignificant exploit or a major one.

DE done in the past for ppl that cheated = BAN; ppl that used exploits = BAN and ppl that hacked the game = BAN; why the hell should it be different this time ppl used it, ppl exploited it, ppl show other on how to do it should be BAN, period (From the casual player up to WF Partner)

BAN the ip not just the account.

 

 

Well that is actualy false.

Exploits have been very present in the past and in a lot of those nobody got banned the exploit just got fixed,

Infinite Glaves , Draco , GPull Mag , Mesa oh dear mesa , Resonating Quake want me to go further ?

[master_of_destiny]

5 hours ago, Vanille said:

Wukong's range was a bug, Nuke Trinity or other 'permutations of op frame powers' were not. The simple reason why they had similar or even longer duration and weren't penalized is because the game already has a way to do what they were doing but with different frames, so they weren't completely breaking nor bypassing the game mechanics, but all these changes arrived because it finally was abusable in ESO, a mode based on kill/time in which their above-average aoe dmg was way higher than nuke abilities due to dmg output not being from abilities, but weapons instead, being hundred thousands, instantly killing everything. Same thing happened with Chroma being 'bugged' for years, but it broke nothing or made it any different than other warframes and the game mechanics until Eidolons came out and he bypassed it effortlessly. Wukong and Chroma is/was popular for being below average on terms of gameplay, so allowing them to have this amount of power was like a bandaid for them until content abused by them came out.

Now in the other hand, there is no game mechanic to bypass the affinity grind in mere seconds. Yes we have ESO and other fast missions, but that's still not seconds to max something and bypass the grind mechanic. The game offers you an affinity booster if you want to speed things up, this exploit removes the need of said booster and it hurts DE, and in return it would end up hurting us.

I will say it again.  Stop.  Think about what you are saying, and get a full picture.

 

At one point Excalibur's Radial Javelin spawned a sword right in front of enemies, allowing for a room clearing move through obstacles.  DE stated that room sweeping was a bug, so they retooled it to be line of sight and to have a finite quantity of projectiles.  This was released as intended, defined retroactively as a bug, and the above patch was implemented once DE discovered that people were spamming the ability for fast affinity gains.

 

Mesa was released as the pistol master frame.  The radial attack with regulators functioned correctly, until people discovered the terrain of Draco, combined with a few additional frames, would allow for nuking the entire place and fast affinity gain.  DE identified this as a bug retroactively, and patched it out because the power "wasn't intended to be used like that."  Again, people gained affinity and rewards too fast so this went from a feature to a bug.

 

You selectively seem to dismiss this, because Onslaught now exists.  People used broken systems before Onslaught, so DE played whack-a-mole.  When players found a way to maximize affinity gains DE patched it out to keep all the rest of the content relevant.  Imagine for a moment DE sat down and discovered ESO and Hydron were 70% of the content players did (it seemed like this back in the Draco days).  Now imagine instead of acknowledging that this was a bug and fixing it they nuked everyone's account who power leveled on Draco.  Remember, if you were Mesa all you had to do was depress your mouse, frost had to maintain a bubble, and Mag required an easily .

 

 

Now we've established a lot of what DE puts out is broken.  You seem to agree by citing Chroma and Wukong.  You've also acquiesced that despite knowing these are broken, DE leaves them in because...reasons.  Call it a balance you define, or call it minimum viable product, but the endgame is you are incapable of identifying where a bug, feature, or exploit are sufficiently delineated.  Chroma was working as intended, but then identified as a bug, and finally patched out when the bug could be exploited for actual gain.  Does that mean everyone using Chroma for single target damage prior to the fix exploited a broken system?  It would logically follow the definition of words to say so, as DE is retroactively capable of defining anything as an exploit according to their ToS and EULA.

 

What happens when DE decides that the next frame's programmed features are broken?  What happens when Baruuk is capable of accelerated affinity gain like Equinox, and both are determined to be an exploit?  What happens when Garuda is found to be able to one shot bosses by inflicting a dual viral proc.?  When exactly does Hydron usage for power leveling constitute an exploit of the game?  These questions are simply potential issues, that DE could reasonably call exploits retroactively.  If they decided to do so, the precedent is that you get a permaban.  That's pretty chilling, and isn't something I believe DE should do if they want customers.

 

 

So, the counter argument is that DE knows better and wouldn't do that.  I can't buy it.  DE is composed of humans, and sometimes we humans do stupid things.  When we do, the people who care about us and want to see us succeed call us out.  I'm suggesting that it's the community's responsibility to call DE out on its nuclear response, to ask that they step it back, to ask that they explain what was done, and to provide positive or negative reinforcement based upon their actions.  If DE walks this back, explains themselves, and gives us confidence we need to share that confidence with them.  If they treat the community at large as cattle to be herded then we should let them know our distaste.  People willing to throw their fellows under the proverbial bus because the exploit was something that they didn't use, and therefore they are superior, miss out on the fact that it could just as easily be them that couldn't read DE's mind.  I know I can't follow the logic between feature, bug, and exploit.  I can't because this is a beta game years after launch, and with all of the changes it's easy for a feature to transition into an exploit due to some new system being introduced.

 

 

One last time, I want to see DE do better.  I want to see them respond to an issue proportionally, and I think that permabans and not talking to us isn't a good precedent.  I will continue to say such, despite not personally being influenced by this.  I say so despite having invested too much time into the game already.  I also say this having taken a nearly two year hiatus, and rapidly approaching the need for another.  DE can do better.  DE has done better.  I hope that providing them that feedback helps, and if it doesn't I have to move from carrot to stick.  The only stick I have is to not play the game, not offer money, and to recommend that the people I care about do the same.  Whatever that's worth, it's where I stand.