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Thrown glaives need a buff (how to, with zero stats change)


zorgy
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Dear DE, I got an idea on how to buff the thrown attack of glaives, without touching any stats or impacting riven power in any way.

I am exclusively talking of the glaive as a thrown melee (and the AOE it has), not the glaive as a melee weapon.

WHY BUFF THEM

Because of the very fast paced nature of WF, throwing your glaive is usually a terrible idea. The damage it deals in thrown mode is rarely worth not being able to use melee anymore. Nobody uses the mods to make glaives bounce more, or speed up flight, simply because it's not worth it, when you could add MOAR DAMAGE to it, which is frankly the only way to mod weapons.

In short :

  • Throwing the glaives will leave you without melee until it returns
  • Damage isn't high enough to make it worth it
  • Trying to detonate the glaive mid flight to hit the enemy is terribly difficult
    • With how fast glaives move, enemy moving as well and potential lag, hitting something with the AOE is almost impossible unless you focus on it exclusively, which puts you in danger or makes you useless ("yay I hit 2 enemies after 4 tries!" whereas you could have killed 10 times more while playing normally)
    • Reach does not (afaik) make the AoE larger
  • Even just hitting enemies isn't easy (and once the glaive has bounced just once, it's basically lost until it returns and will not hit any enemy - it has zero tracking/magnetism)
    • Reach barely helps with this issue for the initial hit, and has absolutely no use once the glaives bounces

 

HOW TO BUFF THEM

My idea does not require any stat change whatsoever to glaives.

  1. During the charging animation, you can lock on enemies, and that guarantees that this enemy will be hit (provided there is LoS) once the glaive is released from charge. Maximum of 4 targets.
  2. Also add a mod that increases the amount of locked on targets.
  3. Add a mod that gives a X% chance (100% chance at max rank) of the glaive doing it's AoE on the last locked on enemy (before it returns to you).

Result of these changes :

  • When using thrown glaives, you will now deal damage to a minimum of 4 enemies guaranteed (plus any other that may be in the path of the glaive). No more missing because of enemies moving or lag!
  • The first mod also increases guaranteed damage indirectly by guaranteeing more hits
  • The second mod forces a AoE to proc, significantly raising the damage the glaive will do on the last hit

 

I believe my ideas wouldn't break the game's balance (since all of it is already things in the game with, again, zero stat changes). It's just QoL for glaives, the coolest weapons.

Edited by zorgy
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2 minutes ago, zorgy said:
  • During the charging animation, you can lock on enemies, and that guarantees that this enemy will be hit (provided there is LoS) once the glaive is released from charge. Maximum of 4 targets.
  • Also add a mod that increases the amount of locked on targets.

I feel like these two points could be combined. You have a mod that when equipped gives lock on - unranked it targets four, +one per rank.

  • I could be in the minority here, but I like my thrown melee not locking on to targets. My build works just fine without this, it can still kill enemies fairly easily. 
  • How would your tracking idea operate with Orvius? It has a special feature where it will lock on to a single enemy when channeled. This levitates the enemy and deals damage. Your suggestion could interfere with this (unless it was just disabled on Channeling for Orvius)

 

I do agree though, this could be implemented without affecting the balance at all. Personally, I would rather see some of the stats buffed for them - I tend to use Orvius, which can track a single enemy. (roughly)

  • Charge speed could be a bit higher, as could damage.

Melee 3.0 is coming eventually, this could bring some changes to thrown melee's.

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2 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I feel like these two points could be combined. You have a mod that when equipped gives lock on - unranked it targets four, +one per rank. 

It's also a possibility, but you'd have to sacrifice a mod slot for it. I'd still take either solutions to "no changes", lol. As for the Orvius ... I guess it could be disabled for it. I admit I didn't consider it at all.

4 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I could be in the minority here, but I like my thrown melee not locking on to targets. My build works just fine without this, it can still kill enemies fairly easily.  

you'll still be dealing damage to one (or two, or three if you're very lucky and they're lined up) enemy. Locking on would would make it more capable of dealing with multiple targets that are spread apart.

 

I am making this suggestion in hope it gets reviewed for melee 3.0. 😀

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2 hours ago, zorgy said:
  • Also add a mod that increases the amount of locked on targets.
  • Add a mod that gives a X% chance (100% chance at max rank) of the glaive doing it's AoE on the last locked on enemy (before it returns to you).

I feel like Rebound / Quick Return and Power Throw could be tweaked to do these, instead of making entirely new mods.

That said, wouldn't it be more effective to give glaives a lot more homing capabilities rather than implementing an Ash-like targeting mechanic? There's weird behaviours to fuss out with the latter, like the Orvius's charged throw, while the former can achieve the same effect without making a huge change to how players use it. E.g., we can still bounce it off a wall and hit something around a corner or chuck it down a hallway (except, with more magnetism, we can do so much more reliably). Plus, the homing system is there—the Orvius has it, a little bit—it just needs to be cranked up and reapplied on each bounce so it can multitarget.

Still agree with the overall idea, though.

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4 hours ago, zorgy said:
  1. During the charging animation, you can lock on enemies, and that guarantees that this enemy will be hit (provided there is LoS) once the glaive is released from charge. Maximum of 4 targets.
  2. Also add a mod that increases the amount of locked on targets.
  3. Add a mod that gives a X% chance (100% chance at max rank) of the glaive doing it's AoE on the last locked on enemy (before it returns to you).

- would i be able to turn this off? i don't want that autolocking thing. i much prefer the manual throw + seeking close targets that Thrown Melee's already have.

- Power Throw already already makes a Thrown Melee perform the Channeling Detonation upon the last bounce. you can also trigger this manually at any time (by Channeling, obviously) to place the Explosion are a precise location.

 

aside from that, Thrown Melee Weapons are quite effective, they do nicely as a Hybrid Melee Weapon and midrange Ranged option. some aren't quite as adept for dealing Damage such as Halikar and Kestrel - though Glaive, Falcor, and Cerata do have quite strong performance.
i do wish the Throw was affected by more types of Mods (and the Throws still really need Crit Chance, they should have very high Crit Chance compared to all other aspects of Melee), but even so as it stands dealing with high Level Armored Enemies has good single Target and crowd performance.

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10 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

That said, wouldn't it be more effective to give glaives a lot more homing capabilities rather than implementing an Ash-like targeting mechanic? There's weird behaviours to fuss out with the latter, like the Orvius's charged throw, while the former can achieve the same effect without making a huge change to how players use it. E.g., we can still bounce it off a wall and hit something around a corner or chuck it down a hallway (except, with more magnetism, we can do so much more reliably). Plus, the homing system is there—the Orvius has it, a little bit—it just needs to be cranked up and reapplied on each bounce so it can multitarget.

it's another way to solve the problem, and it works too, but with magnetism you can't know what will get tracked automatically, I'd prefer to be in control of what gets locked/hit personally.

 

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

- Power Throw already already makes a Thrown Melee perform the Channeling Detonation upon the last bounce. you can also trigger this manually at any time (by Channeling, obviously) to place the Explosion are a precise location.

true but you have to sacrifice a mod slot for it (it's like saying a weapon with terrible ammo economy is ok because you can put ammo mutation mods on it - you're still sacrificing valuable damage for utility) AND the enemy has to be close to a wall (or aim at the ground near him, limiting your vision).

edit : I guess it's the whole point of utility over damage, but the problem is that it still isn't reliable due to the minuscule AoE ... plus it kinda removes what makes glaives unique : the ability to be thrown and bounce. if I wanted a boom, I'd shoot a gun that makes booms, not use a thrown disc that takes time to charge (and for usually less damage than my main or secondary weapon). the AoE is just a cherry on top of the cake, not the cake itself.

 

and like I said, have YOU ever tried, even in the simulacrum with ais turned off, to detonate the glaive mid flight and hit enemies with the AoE? really try it, and count how many tries it takes you. it's extremely difficult, and that'd be in a controlled environment with nothing else to worry about. in a real game ... good luck doing that efficiently (it took you 1 minute to kill up to 3 enemies with a cool melee trick, while if you had been playing normally you'd have killed 10 times more).

Edited by zorgy
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One thing is that Warframe needs non-ridiculously puny unarmed combat stances. One for fists, another for sparring.

Frames with no exalted melee weapons would use one of the two - or let the player choose.

That by itself would already help the "no weapon in hand" situation. 

I think glaives need a lot of love to their mechanics. 

I would like an innate property where less bounces increase its critical chance, where more bounces increase its status chance. This would make the mods that increase/decrease bounces instantly useful to tune the weapon into either a one-hit killer, or a multiple-hit crowd controller.

Rather than painting or target-locking enemies, it should just have a homing bounce to the nearest enemy, as opposed to the current "bounce off in random directions". Other non-melee weapons do it (Atomos), it would make the glaive throw more desirable.

I think Glaives are a very cool concept that with some improvement to their execution, could become a signature weapon for warframe, as it initially was supposed to be - and in the ancient Dark Sector game, it was.

 

 

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4 hours ago, zorgy said:

it's another way to solve the problem, and it works too, but with magnetism you can't know what will get tracked automatically, I'd prefer to be in control of what gets locked/hit personally.

</headscratch>

What if it were something that could be enabled when blocking / aiming? That way it's toggleable and intuitive, but doesn't drastically steer away from how people use it now.

(The extra homing probably wouldn't hurt either way)

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7 hours ago, zorgy said:

true but you have to sacrifice a mod slot for it (it's like saying a weapon with terrible ammo economy is ok because you can put ammo mutation mods on it - you're still sacrificing valuable damage for utility) AND the enemy has to be close to a wall (or aim at the ground near him, limiting your vision).

 

edit : I guess it's the whole point of utility over damage, but the problem is that it still isn't reliable due to the minuscule AoE ...

plus it kinda removes what makes glaives unique : the ability to be thrown and bounce. if I wanted a boom, I'd shoot a gun that makes booms, not use a thrown disc that takes time to charge (and for usually less damage than my main or secondary weapon). the AoE is just a cherry on top of the cake, not the cake itself.

you literally asked for a Mod as your solution, but a Mod does already exist that does much of the same thing. make up your mind.

21 hours ago, zorgy said:

Add a mod that gives a X% chance (100% chance at max rank) of the glaive doing it's AoE on the last locked on enemy (before it returns to you).

 

i wouldn't call the Explosion miniscule, it's something like 5-6 Meters - which i call pretty solid for infinite Ammo and having good Status.
my previously stated points of things that Thrown Melee is missing from the Throws remains the same - those points would make them from good, flexible Weapons - to extremely flexible, high power, competitive for the top Weapons.

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22 hours ago, taiiat said:

you literally asked for a Mod as your solution, but a Mod does already exist that does much of the same thing. make up your mind.

how about you re-read my mod suggestion to know the difference between "explosion on contact with surface, zero bouncing" and "bouncing, with guaranteed explosion on target hit" (coupled with my suggestion to add some kind of lock on mechanism, which enhances the explosion greatly).

 

22 hours ago, taiiat said:

i wouldn't call the Explosion miniscule, it's something like 5-6 Meters - which i call pretty solid for infinite Ammo and having good Status.

when you're far from the target so gauging distances is hard, plus the target is moving AND you are moving as well (and I won't mention lag and how fast the glaives moves, or particles, light effects, projectiles and allies and other things possibly obstructing vision) 5 meter is minuscule. and even more importantly you need to be in melee mode to proc the explosion ... melee mode with your glaive thrown away - meaning you have no means of attacks, relying exclusively on an unreliable explosion).

Edited by zorgy
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