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Questions about Raids


kingvaldemir
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Heya people.

I've been playing Warframe since late 2013 or early 2014 (forgot, i remember playing this when frozen came out though lol), and I've been on and off ever since. Unfortunately, among those off times I missed the Raid update and when i got back, DE removed the game mode. All this time i really feel the one thing missing from warframe is that raid kind of content, where we fight through the level and at the end there is this one boss that we have to fight.

I have watched mogamu's guide video so I have a general idea of what is it about, but my question is why does it fails? Is it too complicated? or perhaps boring? or maybe the 8 man squad kinda put you away? I'm seriously just curious of what you, the veterans that played that game mode, think about it and why it fails.

That would be all and I really appreciate your time for answering it. Thanks!

Edited by kingvaldemir
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9 minutes ago, kingvaldemir said:

why does it fails?

 

9 minutes ago, kingvaldemir said:

or maybe the 8 man squad kinda put you away?

The upkeep costs were too high. I dunno the details but that is the official answer from [DE] Scott in the latest Q&A with TacticalPotato. Also there were only a small number of active player is this mode (about 1%)

With almost every new Update and sometimes even Hotfixes did break a part of Trials which DE had to fix. So they couldn't just leave it there, they had to fix it every single time. 8 player ping party did the rest, so they retired them for review

Edited by GnarlsDarkley
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9 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

The upkeep costs were too high.

 

9 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

With almost every new Update and sometimes even Hotfixes did break a part of Trials which DE had to fix.

 

Basically, this. More or less, according to Scott, the original Raids and their design weren't "fluent", or something to that nature, in terms of both their game-play, and their level programing/design. Because of the latter, literally every Update would break something in it and its fickle coding. Changes made to Mag? Raids broke. Changed made to Channeling? Raids Broke. Changes made to sky-boxes? Raids...you guessed it, Broke.

It was a complicated issue that needed to be constantly babied, for a Player-base that was currently just too small for the sheer amount of effort going into it.


The good news is, they're aware of what made the Raids fail at their core, and instead of continuing to try and build on those pillars of sand, they're doing work on making a more solid foundation for the future Raids they're planning to put in. (No, Eidolons and Orbs aren't it. The "For Realsies" will be coming out later.)

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I enjoyed the Trial missions as they were the only gamemode where success hinges on communication in some form between team mates. The mechanics of the raid were not very complicated (simple puzzles), but I found the efficiency aspect of it very fun. I enjoyed pushing myself to improve the time it took me to finish the run. The majority of this playerbase was not a fan of this content, and the return on investment just wasn't there. ;(

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I'm no vet in raids but I do want to say that that 1 raid I ever did was frustrating. basically it was a person who know how its done and 7 other who knew nothing and via discord voice he gave us instructions. He was extremely frustrated but didn't want to show it. I remember no waypoints at all or instructions. You were just left there with only a few lines of what to do from lotus and form then you just had to explore and it was like a puzzle. I'm also not sure what raid it was it had Vey Hek in it. All of that for just an arcane(and the shoulder regalia) was stupid to me and I never tried doing them again.

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people often look at the raids through Rose-tinted glasses, whilst they might be nostalgic and call back to a veteran's "glory days", they constantly bugged out with updates and hardly anyone played them. they also paled in comparison to the competition; say what you will about Destiny and it's predatory money practices and such, but the Raids there are really good; much more elaborate and focusing on teamwork, asking players to be good at many things: combat, parkour and puzzles. warframe's raids just don't have that same appeal IMO. 

DE are supposed to be looking at raids and reworking them entirely, though I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing them any time soon, and there's a chance it could be like Dark Sectors where they never come back. we have to be prepared for every possibility, and there's a possibility that raids just aren't really warframe's thing; that either endgame content needs to come in a different form, or there might never be an endgame (outside of fashionframe anyway)

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It would be really nice if DE revisited concept of Raids, but they are probably going to take the numbers they saw from previous ones and just assume it isn't worth the time. They weren't well done (at least in my opinion) and the rewards were not adequate for time invested, but a revisit to the topic with improved mechanics would be welcomed.

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Okay, so I think the main reason that it took out from developer perspective was because it breaks easily like what [DE]Scott said on his recent interview with Tac Potato.  Not to mention that only a handful of people plays it. I guess it's really hard for them to make it work because there are so many things in this games like, a huge variety of warframes and wewapons and constant update which can lead to another bug.

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

The mechanics of the raid were not very complicated (simple puzzles), but I found the efficiency aspect of it very fun. I enjoyed pushing myself to improve the time it took me to finish the run. The majority of this playerbase was not a fan of this content, and the return on investment just wasn't there. ;(

I'm not a veteran in raids from other games (tried some), but i do play a lot of dungeons from other MMO's like GW 2's fractal and bunch of strikes from Destiny 2. I wish Warframe has something like this too, just to add some kind of epic-ness or weight into the mission. One problem that I have with warframe's missions is that players (well at least me) don't really think much when we are doing missions. We just speed run all those missions because the objective are too simple and the enemies are way too easy.

4 hours ago, AwkwardLazarow said:

All of that for just an arcane(and the shoulder regalia) was stupid to me and I never tried doing them again.

So there's also reward issue, eh? Well I think warframe does have reward issue but I think thats a topic for another day

4 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

The good news is, they're aware of what made the Raids fail at their core, and instead of continuing to try and build on those pillars of sand, they're doing work on making a more solid foundation for the future Raids they're planning to put in. (No, Eidolons and Orbs aren't it. The "For Realsies" will be coming out later.) 

Somehow I have this vibe that Eidolon and the upcoming orb fight are some kind of DE's experiment. They try little by little though like Eidolon is to test the 'big boss fight' and how players receive it. The problem with it is that I kinda feeling we are fighting the same 3 bosses. They do have different attack, but players dont really change their strategy.

And the other one is the orb fight. If I'm not mistaken, Scott did say in the interview with Tac Potato that they kinda try to bring back the 'feeling' (not whole just a piece) of raid to the upcoming orb fight. He also added that they called it a 'heist' and  there are multiple things happened at the same time. I think the Orb fight will require better team play than Eidolon, but not as complicated as raids.

The fact that there will be only one orb fight available in the upcoming fortuna II, kinda tells me they really careful about this. They want to see players reaction and feedback so they (hopefully) won't messed up the second and the third one. And maybe if the reception are good they then can expand the idea and finally rebuild the raids.

Just my thoughts though. It might not big, but I do hope the orb fights are at least better than the eidolon one. Thank you everyone to share your thoughts! Much appreciated :D.

Edited by kingvaldemir
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You know how badly Warframe explains things, yeah?

Well, imagine missions that have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the standard Warframe missions, puzzles requiring decent cooperation of the squad and ramp up the failure salt by 1000.

Cos that was raids.

Edited by (PS4)drpunk-yo
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8 minutes ago, kingvaldemir said:

And the other one is the orb fight. If I'm not mistaken, Scott did say in the interview with Tac Potato that they kinda try to bring back the 'feeling' (not whole just a piece) of raid to the upcoming orb fight. He also added that they called it a 'heist' and  there are multiple things happened at the same time. I think the Orb fight will require better team play than Eidolon, but not as complicated as raids.

That's my impressions as well. Scott said that raids were "way too custom...they had very specific scripting" and the gameplay felt out of place compared to the rest of how Warframe played. I might be misinterpreting this, but I took it to mean that the manually-generated design of raids didn't fit in a game where everything was previously designed around random/procedural gameplay.

Part of what makes Warframe so great is how accessible it is to everyone. On any starchart mission, the map layout is random, the number of enemies and enemy types thrown at a player are random, the location of loot is random, and the objective location is random, but all of this can easily be overcome with any warframe and weapons combination. Warframe at its core is about player choice and almost any mission can be met with success regardless of the gamer's chosen playstyle. The only thing that is pre-determined is the type of mission we play (defense, survival, rescue, etc).

On the starchart, even though you play within a team, the success of the mission is very rarely dependent on team coordination. So long as you bring your best frame and weapon, and can kill enemies reliably, you are nearly always guaranteed to win regardless of team composition. Raids however, mostly relied on player communication, cooperation, and coordination to solve certain stages and puzzles. I personally love that, but the way they were designed, it didn't fit into the theme of player freedom/choice. You couldn't afford to have that one party member that preferred to play the lone wolf, or that player that loved playing exclusively melee, or that player that loved going all out offensive, etc. There wasn't any wiggle room for preferred play-style. You needed a team composition, you needed roles, and that meant people would be forced to play something they might not like playing in order to guarantee a successful raid.

Because of this, a lot of Raids were cheesed. People found meta's that took out the largest risk: the team-play element. You'd have max range Rhino's to perma-stomp entire maps, making the other 7 players unnecessary, but it was guaranteed to work and it was guaranteed to win.

I think that is honestly why they were unpopular. People didn't want to feel forced into playing something (meta), but the gameplay became too high-risk if you didn't conform. Eidolons are closer to what works in a game like Warframe, although I think there are still a lot of improvements that need to be made. There is still a meta used for highest output, but you can still largely be successful without playing a specific frame or conforming to the meta. All in all though, Eidolons are still dependant on doing as much dps as possible. I think the Orbs fights will be the next iteration of Eidolons, and hopefully will start to introduce and experiment with other perimeters for success that might be more reliant on team-play and not just depend on how much damage each person brings to the table.

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If raids are done correctly DE can take Warframe from 8/10 to 11!
But it's no small undertaking - it requires a lot of skill, time and effort.
Personally I would consider it as some of the best kind of endgame imaginable.😀

I used to run countless of raids in Star Wars: The Old Republic as a Guild Master or just with completely random players.
It keeps players engaged by doing the daily or weekly raids with their guild members and it evolves their skill set and play style.

Tactics are explained at each boss fight for newbies - but it's still expected that the raid group will wipe again and again - as it's just a natural part of the learning curve.

The 8 or 16 man raid group consists of Tanks, Healers and Damage dealers.
Tanks keeps the boss focused on them and takes the blunt of the force - healers heals the team and damage dealers dps burn the boss.

The group must kill the boss before the enrage timer runs out - or it will deal massive damage killing the team.
There are usually around 4 bosses in one raid.

There are 3 types of raids with 3 levels of difficulty.

How to make it a real success?
The raids must come with some epic story combined with some epic cinematic cutscenes, plus the epic boss fights must be fun and challenging to do. The loot must be so awesome - that it's still worth doing after your 50th time - and teaming up for a raid group must be quick and smooth.

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