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The problem with Baruuk's 3, and a solution


CircularReason
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First off, I'm really excited for Baruuk - more excited for a frame than I have in a long while.

That being said, I've read from alot of people complaining that there is significant overlap between his radial sleep, and his disarm charges, and as they are currently being shown, I do have to agree. The disarm charges seem to shoot out one by one, and at a very short range. If this is true, it would simply always be better to cast your radial sleep, as it would cover a wider area, and affect many at once, rather than one at a time, rendering use 3 as useless. I dont want that for him.

Here is what I'm thinking. Thematically, disarm works really well for this frame. But when you have a radial sleep, the people you really need to disarm are those shooting at you from farther away, outside the range of your sleep. My suggeation is to use the same mechanic as Ash's shuriken; having 2 or 3 darts able to be thrown, which then seek out enemies. When hit, apply small damage (like it is now) stagger, and disarm. This way, he can control crowds around him with sleep, and stop people further away from shooting at him with his disarm darts. Now both his 2 and 3 have usefulness apart from each other, without overlap.

Thoughts?

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I can understand why it would be short range though because of the strategic benefit. It provides damage resistance while up as well it works the way NOVA's Null Star does, which means it would suffer from the same problem of constantly using up charges when you want to keep them. I actually wish hers was short range as well with a high knockback effect on enemies hit by it so it acts like a melee shield. With short range his Subdue gives you the ability to keep the damage resistance when needed or consciously  put yourself in melee range to pass them to your allies (as it states is possible), or your target to disarm enemies like Nox, Bombards, Hyeka Masters, etc. rather than wasting it on every Lancer that enters the room. 

It may be unnecessary though with the constant redundant defense techniques but we'll have to wait to see how well it plays out in game.

26 minutes ago, CircularReason said:

Here is what I'm thinking. Thematically, disarm works really well for this frame. But when you have a radial sleep, the people you really need to disarm are those shooting at you from farther away, outside the range of your sleep. My suggeation is to use the same mechanic as Ash's shuriken; having 2 or 3 darts able to be thrown, which then seek out enemies. When hit, apply small damage (like it is now) stagger, and disarm. This way, he can control crowds around him with sleep, and stop people further away from shooting at him with his disarm darts. Now both his 2 and 3 have usefulness apart from each other, without overlap.

I don't think that's a bad idea. It might be good to combo the shuriken idea with how it is now, letting you summon them for damage resistance, but casting it again while active will fire 1-3 of them forward locking on and disarming different targets in front of you. You could hold to still replenish charges while it's active (which is stated to be possible with the current version) to keep some damage resistance.

Otherwise if DE wants to maintain the reactive, rather than proactive aspect to it (while keeping you from having the option of the permanent damage resistance) they could take a note from Mesmer Skin and make it just automatically disarm targets that deal damage to you, without preventing the damage as Mesmer Skin does. It gives it better long range and short range utility without it being wasted and is reactive to incoming attacks.

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baruuk being a frame with a DR passive, 1 and 3 kinda means there's a lot of overlap on his kit. also you basically just proposed to give baruuk nyx's psychic bolts with the augment. noone used that before and it's getting removed because of that. i agree his kit is thematically good, but it just feels like another wukong, can't die and has an exalted as their selling point.

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I agree about the overlap, that's why I'm proposong the change. With nyx, there was only a chance of disarm, and it worked against her main ability, chaos, taking the weapons that the enemies needed to fight each other. With Baruuk, its different, he wants to create peace. Disarm works well there, just not as it is currently implemented, as it's structed to much like the radial sleep. Sleep an area, throw disarm darts to stagger and disarm many in the distance. I think it would synergize well. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I don't think that's a bad idea. It might be good to combo the shuriken idea with how it is now, letting you summon them for damage resistance, but casting it again while active will fire 1-3 of them forward locking on and disarming different targets in front of you. You could hold to still replenish charges while it's active (which is stated to be possible with the current version) to keep some damage resistance.

I think this idea would work well too.

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Now me, I don't see an overlap in any of these abilities. The theme is 'non-combatant' or 'reluctant warrior', where he has multiple methods of not actually directly engaging his enemies.

His 3 provides damage reduction that stacks with his passive, although using his 3 to disarm enemies charges his passive so the balance is that he can maintain a certain amount of DR even while using the charges, and this is for dealing with the fact that Warframe is a horde-based shooter, where enemies can specifically spawn behind you and flank you.

What this means is that his 1, which is total damage evasion from the camera direction, can come into effect for dealing with ranged enemies. He won't die as easily from flankers, due to the DR and Disarm that stuns enemies that do approach, but for ranged enemies he can freely move around, approach and retreat while keeping them in his sights to prevent more dangerous targets from affecting him.

Then his 2, the radial sleep, is as much an ally buff as it is a personal defense. If his 3 is low or if he's surrounded and taking damage because of his mono-directional 1, he can sleep enemies and even combo that in with his 4 because of the boost to Finishers it gives.

It's far from a redundancy thing, it's three different applications of damage mitigation, varying from total in a conditional, to partial with a semi-conditional nature, and then a preventative method.

Tie this all in with his 4 that's as much CC as it is damage, and you're looking at a frame that... well, until I get hold of him and actually mod him, I can't say what tier he'll really be, but as a solo frame he could be very high tier for survivability and very useful in a group for that ally buff (from his 2 and 3) and for the lift and pull CC on his 4. Not your traditional role, as such, but a far better Wukong, if you will.

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The problem is his 2 and 3 both being fairly close range CC, so another solution is to put a decent duration on his 2 so he can lock down an area while running around doing his thing elsewhere. His 2 just seems really weak compared to other similar abilities, with how slow it is to activate I don't see any problem with giving it a long duration. Also it would be nice if his 3 had no delay between darts, so you could jump into a group of enemies and disarm them all right away. If it has a delay similar to Nova's Null Star, I would expect each dart to just disarm each enemy while they're already falling over dead.

There's also his lack of utility. Right now he has survivability, CC, and maybe a high damage exalted weapon. Multiple other frames already provide those functions and more. He needs one more little benefit tied to his abilities to compete with other frames. Maybe health orb generation, status effect immunity, energy generation, just some sort of little utility boost.

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47 minutes ago, Densetti said:

The problem is his 2 and 3 both being fairly close range CC... it would be nice if his 3 had no delay between darts, so you could jump into a group of enemies and disarm them all right away. If it has a delay similar to Nova's Null Star, I would expect each dart to just disarm each enemy while they're already falling over dead.

I completely agree with this. I want this frame to be good, that's why I hope they address some of these thibgs from the get go.

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5 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Now me, I don't see an overlap in any of these abilities. The theme is 'non-combatant' or 'reluctant warrior', where he has multiple methods of not actually directly engaging his enemies.

His 3 provides damage reduction that stacks with his passive, although using his 3 to disarm enemies charges his passive so the balance is that he can maintain a certain amount of DR even while using the charges, and this is for dealing with the fact that Warframe is a horde-based shooter, where enemies can specifically spawn behind you and flank you.

What this means is that his 1, which is total damage evasion from the camera direction, can come into effect for dealing with ranged enemies. He won't die as easily from flankers, due to the DR and Disarm that stuns enemies that do approach, but for ranged enemies he can freely move around, approach and retreat while keeping them in his sights to prevent more dangerous targets from affecting him.

Then his 2, the radial sleep, is as much an ally buff as it is a personal defense. If his 3 is low or if he's surrounded and taking damage because of his mono-directional 1, he can sleep enemies and even combo that in with his 4 because of the boost to Finishers it gives.

It's far from a redundancy thing, it's three different applications of damage mitigation, varying from total in a conditional, to partial with a semi-conditional nature, and then a preventative method.

Tie this all in with his 4 that's as much CC as it is damage, and you're looking at a frame that... well, until I get hold of him and actually mod him, I can't say what tier he'll really be, but as a solo frame he could be very high tier for survivability and very useful in a group for that ally buff (from his 2 and 3) and for the lift and pull CC on his 4. Not your traditional role, as such, but a far better Wukong, if you will.

THANK YOU!

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