Why Do People Need An Opt Out For Stalker Mode?

[Chaemyerelis]

Btw if you play solo i doubt you can be player invaded. Heck the game even pauses for you in solo mode.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 minute ago, FreeWilliam said:

Yeah, I don't think this is an even vaguely correct assumption.

It isn't an assumption. DEScott literally said it.

The PVP playerbase & interest amongst the community across all 3 (4 once Switch gets more settled) platforms is lower than the Trial playerbase was.

Per his own words. The PVP in the game is nigh unplayed & every new mode for it they add doesn't pan out. They've tried sports (Lunaro) & it still falls through. So they acknowledge that a opt in may & most likely would kill Stalker Mode upon arrival.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Chaemyerelis said:

Btw if you play solo i doubt you can be player invaded. Heck the game even pauses for you in solo mode.

That is what most of the problem in this discussion is about.  The possible forced opt-in of the mode that would bypass the solo mode aspect.  

[EmberStar]

3 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

Yeah, I don't think this is an even vaguely correct assumption.

What assumption?  Watch the video.  At about the fifteen minute mark, DE Scott says that if they make it optional, "like 95% of the players would just turn it off."  The burden is on YOU to provide counter citations.  And I mean actual, verifiable evidence, not just Kermit-flailing your arms in the direction of Fortnite and muttering how some PVP games are popular.  For one thing, the "millions of people" playing Fortnite already *have* their preferred PVP game.  They have Fortnite.  Why would they give up their Fortnite to come to a less popular game with weird looking techno-organic ninja space wizards?  I mean, Ninja doesn't even play Warframe, how uncool is that!

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

That is what most of the problem in this discussion is about.  The possible forced opt-in of the mode that would bypass the solo mode aspect.  

Which...honestly, losing the ability to pause while in solo mode? For the sake of Stalker player invasions?

 

Even more GTFO.

[FreeWilliam]

7 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

11 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

Yeah, I don't think this is an even vaguely correct assumption.

It’s pretty much DE Scott’s exact words when he was asked about it.

I'm not saying the words weren't said, just that the assumption about the effect of opting in/out is a huge stretch.  This isn't Lunaro.

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

I'm not saying the words weren't said, just that the assumption about the effect of opting in/out is a huge stretch.  This isn't Lunaro.

Which is worth discussing, I guess. What do you think the result would be of making the mode opt in?

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Which is worth discussing, I guess. What do you think the result would be of making the mode opt in?

I can answer that one quite easily.  I would just be playing more Darksiders Trilogy, Nier: Automata, Forza 7, and the other RPG games I put on backlog while playing Warframe.  😄  

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

I can answer that one quite easily.  I would just be playing more Darksiders Trilogy, Nier: Automata, Forza 7, and the other RPG games I put on backlog while playing Warframe.  😄  

Opt in, dude. Optional. 

[EmberStar]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Opt in, dude. Optional. 

The handful of "la la la la I'm not listening to you" PVP defenders have clearly gotten some of us to the point of "Ready Fire AIM!"

[DatDarkOne]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Opt in, dude. Optional. 

It's just at this point I find it very hard to see the mode even being added as an optional component if it is added.    

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

The handful of "la la la la I'm not listening to you" PVP defenders have clearly gotten some of us to the point of "Ready Fire AIM!"

Yes, it does get tiring.  😄

 

[SneakyErvin]

13 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Which is worth discussing, I guess. What do you think the result would be of making the mode opt in?

Lets see.

They've killed off one PvP mode completely, regular PvP is barely played, Lunaro is played even less and Frame Fighter is used... honestly I dont know how used it is. It has more players than just one, or does it?

So adding opt in Stalker would result in... much of the same nothingness, manhours and resources would likely be better spent at the company toilet.

 

[FreeWilliam]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

So adding opt in Stalker would result in... much of the same nothingness, manhours and resources would likely be better spent at the company toilet.

'Opt-in-Stalker' could also just mean a toggle type option ('I'm opting in to Player Stalkers happening whenever') rather than some sort of queue you wait on...I agree that a login queue wouldn't work terribly well, but the Stalker mechanics have always been 'can happen in any mission' so the opt-in makes more sense as an ongoing thing with opt-OUT as something that's possibly more dynamic ('there are Stalkers invading, do you want to be safe from them?' as a popup, etc.)

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

'Opt-in-Stalker' could also just mean a toggle type option ('I'm opting in to Player Stalkers happening whenever') rather than some sort of queue you wait on...I agree that a login queue wouldn't work terribly well, but the Stalker mechanics have always been 'can happen in any mission' so the opt-in makes more sense as an ongoing thing with opt-OUT as something that's possibly more dynamic ('there are Stalkers invading, do you want to be safe from them?' as a popup, etc.)

I don’t really mean in terms of technical options for doing it, though, I meant I’d like to hear what kinds of outcomes you’d expect from making the mode optional.

 

For reference: If the mode is introduced and is optional, I’d likely keep it switched off when I’m just noodling about with a new weapon or trying out some wacky build, but under other conditions, I’d actually leave it active, see what happens.

 

However! I would absolutely expect wicked levels of toxic behaviour to develop, within days.

[Syndrella]

I personally like the pve game mods but I am not against the pvp if that is optional because sometimes can be fun. Hard to say anything more than this because the resistance is very high against the pvp in this game and for a proper pvp which could be fun DE needs to invest more and skip the bandaid solutions. That is clearly seen DE wants to do something with the pvp part of the game because they added the Conclave, Lunaro, Fighters and old dark sectors. They want to figure out how they could add a game mode which in long term could maybe increase the popularity and reduce the burn out but the current playerbase is heavily based on the pure pve part. 

I know they try to do this because they cannot please the challenge seekers and casuals, newbies and veterans too in the same time and they have a slow process to add content which pleases the players. The Fortuna is a nice addition but it feels like the Plains so they can use only what's worked and figure out new stuff if that can keep us playing. They do not have so much option to do this just adding content in way like this and decide what to do with it if many resist or slowly will accept it.

Not saying they are lacking in idea what to do but they cannot balance old content, add new exciting content and add challenge in the same time so they needs the pvp part too which can be fun if done it right but DE has no really enough manpower and talent on pvp part only on pve.

[Dangerbone]

1 hour ago, Chaemyerelis said:

I'm fine with a stalker mode. Its not like getting downed once hurts anyone.

At best its a minor inconvenience. The issue I'm wondering is how they can make the stalker not get rekt by 4 tenno but not be OP at the same time.

 

On second thought. Being a fan of lore, I'm not sure this fits in well.

It's not like the Stalker sticks around to take all 4 of your revives, he just tries to steal one of your Chuck E. Cheese tickets and bounces. At worst he'll end the mission for one really bad/undergeared player. 

Lore-wise it could fit with either Man in the Wall/Hey Kiddo from Chains of Harrow (a dark Void entity with practically no backstory, thus a blank canvas) or through some kind of new Teshin sponsored pseudo-Stalker drill to train the Tenno on how to deal with unexpected threats from something similar to a Warframe after another Acolyte/Stalker related fiasco. Loreframe is very spotty and there's a lot of room for new things.

[FreeWilliam]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 

For reference: If the mode is introduced and is optional, I’d likely keep it switched off when I’m just noodling about with a new weapon or trying out some wacky build, but under other conditions, I’d actually leave it active, see what happens.

Most of us would probably forget about it completely, especially those of us who are usually thrilled to see that flash of darkness that means we've got a special enemy about. 

If someone has a bad experience though, they'd be able to opt out...it'd be nice if it wasn't buried in a menu and is pretty up-top or (if we have events) then added to the UI during the event, but that gives people away to avoid it. 

We could also have things like 'Stalker Swarms' where players who keep beating them keep getting attacked (by player and/or non-player) until they finally fall with scoreboards and such.  If we hit that point though then Stalkers should always be 'enemy tagged' and it'd make more sense to have enemies without trolly-stealth abilities who are bullet sponges instead, that'd reduce the toxicity risk.

[DatDarkOne]

6 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

However! I would absolutely expect wicked levels of toxic behaviour to develop, within days.

^^This.  

Ironically enough, Stalker being controlled by DE employees doesn't bother me at all.  I think it has more to do with a DE controlled Stalker there is vastly less chance of having a toxic Stalker go off the rails trying to sabotage a mission out of spite.  

[EmberStar]

1 minute ago, Dangerbone said:

It's not like the Stalker sticks around to take all 4 of your revives, he just tries to steal one of your Chuck E. Cheese tickets and bounces. At worst he'll end the mission for one really bad/undergeared player.

That's the *scripted* Stalker that can't deliberately bend the rules to screw with you.  Of the top of my head, as a non-PVP player:  Stalker has several *stupidly* powerful abilites, he just sucks at using them.  He can instantly dispel a lot of Warframe powers, and I think some of them even turn into instant feedback damage for the Warframe getting dispelled.  That's *definitely* open to abuse by someone who chooses to do so.  Stalker locks down the area and enemies stop spawning normally, which is *super* troll-able in Survival missions.  A Player Stalker could also focus on killing everyone *except* the Marked target, or even just on running around to drag things out.

That's aside from the fact that in every instance we've seen the mode, Player Stalker had the ability to attack Defense targets and Excavators, trip alarms in Spy missions, and otherwise do stuff that could be pretty freaking abusive.  It hasn't happened much in Twitch Streams because the devs are the ones playing him, and have an incentive NOT to be complete jerk-holes to random players of their own game.  But I can promise that actual player controlled Stalkers won't have any such reservations.

[DatDarkOne]

@EmberStar we seem to have the same viewpoints on what would really happen.  

[Szuna]

I don't think this will be a good addition to a mainly pve game.

[Dangerbone]

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

That's the *scripted* Stalker that can't deliberately bend the rules to screw with you.  Of the top of my head, as a non-PVP player:  Stalker has several *stupidly* powerful abilites, he just sucks at using them.  He can instantly dispel a lot of Warframe powers, and I think some of them even turn into instant feedback damage for the Warframe getting dispelled.  That's *definitely* open to abuse by someone who chooses to do so.  Stalker locks down the area and enemies stop spawning normally, which is *super* troll-able in Survival missions.  A Player Stalker could also focus on killing everyone *except* the Marked target, or even just on running around to drag things out.

That's aside from the fact that in every instance we've seen the mode, Player Stalker had the ability to attack Defense targets and Excavators, trip alarms in Spy missions, and otherwise do stuff that could be pretty freaking abusive.  It hasn't happened much in Twitch Streams because the devs are the ones playing him, and have an incentive NOT to be complete jerk-holes to random players of their own game.  But I can promise that actual player controlled Stalkers won't have any such reservations.

Simple, the player controlled Stalker has the same limitations as AI Stalker. Can't interact with objectives and leaves after one player goes down. Another limitation unique to player Stalker would make objective health meters (defense, defection, and excavator) immune to player Stalker damage and be undetectable to Spy alarm systems. Player Stalker should also have no ability to heal, this way a player trying to stall a survival will get whittled down by sustained fire from a squad of Tenno. Maybe add a ranking timer to encourage fast blitz type tactics for the best rewards during survival invasions. To make another Dark Souls comparison, the player Stalker would act like a Mound Maker in DS3, kill the host (initial marked player) or one phantom (other, non-invaded players in the squad) and leave. The Stalker variant would be dependant on the invaded player's progression, not the invader's.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Dangerbone

[EmberStar]

11 minutes ago, Dangerbone said:

Simple, the player controlled Stalker has the same limitations as AI Stalker. Can't interact with objectives and leaves after one player goes down. Another limitation unique to player Stalker would make objective health meters (defense, defection, and excavator) immune to player Stalker damage and be undetectable to Spy alarm systems. Player Stalker should also have no ability to heal, this way a player trying to stall a survival will get whittled down by sustained fire from a squad of Tenno. Maybe add a ranking timer to encourage fast blitz type tactics for the best rewards during survival invasions. To make another Dark Souls comparison, the player Stalker would act like a Mound Maker in DS3, kill the host (initial marked player) or one phantom (other, non-invaded players in the squad) and leave. The Stalker variant would be dependant on the invaded player's progression, not the invader's.

Except that's not how the mode works every single time the devs have shown it off.  Player Stalker *can* attack both enemies and objectives, and has the full range of Stalker powers for the type of Stalker that would normally spawn.  The AI Stalker is limited by being *stupid.*  On paper, Stalker or Shadow Stalker is *absurdly* powerful already.  You rarely see it in game because he walks around in a slow, menacing (and totally ineffective) manner and rarely uses powers.

Any comparison to Dark Souls just weakens your point even further - if I wanted to play a game that hates me and wants me to suffer for even owning it, I'd *already* be playing Dark Souls.

[Dangerbone]

6 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Except that's not how the mode works every single time the devs have shown it off.  Player Stalker *can* attack both enemies and objectives, and has the full range of Stalker powers for the type of Stalker that would normally spawn.  The AI Stalker is limited by being *stupid.*  On paper, Stalker or Shadow Stalker is *absurdly* powerful already.  You rarely see it in game because he walks around in a slow, menacing (and totally ineffective) manner and rarely uses powers.

Any comparison to Dark Souls just weakens your point even further - if I wanted to play a game that hates me and wants me to suffer for even owning it, I'd *already* be gitting gud.

I'm merely making comparisons to a game that gets this kind of asymmetric PvP game mode right. DE has said that this game mode is playable, just not ready for public use. Tweaking it to make it a mostly fair challenge was what I was going with. Pure speculation. As it is now, I agree with you, Stalker Mode isn't ready to be in players' hands.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Dangerbone