Why Do People Need An Opt Out For Stalker Mode?

[DatDarkOne]

 

8 hours ago, (XB1)VaricBreem said:

The biggest Issue I see with  this  is  not the  game mode  its self , But the resulting salt and tears  the PVPtards  who want to invade my  game will be  spouting on forums  after I curb stomp them into the  ground with my PVE speced weapons, Resulting in ovious  nerfs  aimed  at PVE  setups  ecause  PVPtards  cant  join my game  and "LoL Noob GIt Gud" me  in   a message.  I mean seriously they  join My game with Stalkers Load Out and  expect My umbral Inaroas   Running around  with Staticor/some other weapon of mass destruction , Not to one shot them? They are all Like  YUS Muh PVP Forced on  Others,   but when push comes to shove they will be the first ones  screamin for Nerfs, in a  PVEcentric setting

And then the agreement.  

8 hours ago, Dangerbone said:

That said, yes, a lot of PvP players could probably be expected to act that way.

Cheers fellow Tenno.  😄

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, (XB1)VaricBreem said:

The biggest Issue I see with  this  is  not the  game mode  its self , But the resulting salt and tears  the PVPtards  who want to invade my  game will be  spouting on forums  after I curb stomp them into the  ground with my PVE speced weapons, Resulting in ovious  nerfs  aimed  at PVE  setups  ecause  PVPtards  cant  join my game  and "LoL Noob GIt Gud" me  in   a message.  I mean seriously they  join My game with Stalkers Load Out and  expect My umbral Inaroas   Running around  with Staticor/some other weapon of mass destruction , Not to one shot them? They are all Like  YUS Muh PVP Forced on  Others,   but when push comes to shove they will be the first ones  screamin for Nerfs, in a  PVEcentric setting

This is an extreme truth that I'm shocked hasn't been touched on yet.

Right now, I have weapons that LITERALLY 1 Shot Shadow Stalker, my Operator also kills him in 1 shot & is so strong that a full Melee Combo from both Stalker (The Tough Stalker) & Shadow Stalker (The Weak Stalker) cannot kill him. I've stood inside the Sentient Disco Orb.

If Destiny PVP which of course Bungie constantly "claims" (insert Eye Roll here) never influences their PVE changes or will negatively effect PVE (Go do a search yourself to see how BS that is...)…is PLAGUED by constant changes due to the PVP side of the game.
PVE Weapons in Forsaken alone have rocked PVP to its very core in that game. Not for the better either, Black Armory recently unleashed the first wave of nerfs to PVE weapons & folks are not happy.

Now, for the sake of argument, lets say Stalker Mode exists...whether it is a conclave mode, or a mode you have to earn the right to unlock, a once a day thing, whatever.
The anger, rage, salt, & toxicity that'll flood the game when Stalker spawns in & is immediately 1 shot, Team Shot, Overwhelmed via a full squad of Tenno, or had an amp shoved up his posterior then launched into the Tau System will be absolutely insane.

These forums would be plagued by Stalker Mode threads whining about:
- It isn't fair that Tenno I invade keep their PVE loadouts. When I invade they should be forced to equip PVP loadouts so it can be a "skillful" fight.
- Team Shots are for (censored)! DE, Team Shooting is out of control.
- (Weapon Name) killed me in (1, 2, or 3) shots. This is BROKEN!!!
- Players should not be able to summon their Operator when Stalker invades. This is unfair!
- Operators are OP!
- (Warframe) is OP!

And so on...
I have maxed all my focus trees, unlocked all Waybounds, & I've got atleast 1 Max rank of each & every Operator Arcane. My Operator is literally more powerful than all my Warframes.
Shadow Stalker is as tough as a Grineer Butcher for my Operator. So I can already see the whispers/tells & PSN messages I'd get after an invasion.
It won't go well.
And I'll be damned before all my hard work gets reduced because someone is upset they can't touch me with Stalker.

That said, I've been very vocal on why this mode is a bad idea. Not for ME. But because I've taken about 4 IRL friends under my wing & been teaching them this game.
Due to the Weapon Progression reworks, I can seriously say that the game is more difficult for new players than ever before.
Stalker as a result is truly terrifying to fight for new players.
I thought of this thread today as I fought Stalker for my friend.
Long story short, he was doing the first mission on Mars & Stalker started to spawn. My jaw DROPPED. As I never encountered him for the first time until I had hit Jupiter.
My friend has only been playing for 3 days. He has a level 28 Excalibur, MK.1 Paris, Lato, Heat Sword & a slew of mostly Flawed Mods.
I being a sadist told him to trust me & I took the controller from him.

Won't lie...that was an epic fight. My friends jaw dropped as he watched me peck away at Stalker with what was essentially me spitting wet tissue paper at him.
It took me nearly 10 minutes to defeat him because he kept vanishing. (Which I admit, made me sweat...as receiving 1 hit was guaranteed death.)

After the encounter I seriously thought about this thread. I asked myself...if that had been a player there would have been NO way for that to be a fair fight.
Additionally, had I been a new player I would be deterred from the game because just the AI Stalker at that stage of the game was brutal. For a player to be behind him would be demoralizing. (Let's be honest...Veterans would be the first & the majority of Stalker Mode users.)

Additionally, I realized another severe problem with Stalker. He typically goes from extremely tough, to extremely easy with the flip of a switch. As the turning point for him difficulty wise is essentially The War Within. After that point in the game, most players have the experience, gear, & mods to trivialize him & he becomes an annoyance. Before that point he's a challenge & more of an "Oh S#&$!" moment.

So really, just like Destiny 2's Quickplay PVP... (Hey, it's meant for Streamers to sit back & chill right?)
Stalker Mode is basically just punishment for new players. Which isn't a good way to go about things.
Add in the fact that DE doesn't want the mode to go ignored (No Opt Out.) if implemented (Which it would.) then DE is basically making a legitimate mode that is designed to punish/troll new players for trying to clear/progress/play the game.

Honestly, if this mode were added. The only players with it on "Toggled On"/"Opt-In" would be Veterans who will & already do kill Stalker without even noticing he spawned in.
Stalker players would spawn in to be beaten like some kind of armless, legless thing, & be blown away...like a Turd...in the Wind...
New players would get ganked once...& either quit Warframe, or via Region Chat, YouTube, or Wiki turn the mode off.

So...
New player complaints flooding forums... *Check*
Stalker Players complaints flooding forums *Check*
Veteran Player complaints & arguments over Stalker players asking for nerfs *Check*

Yeah...this mode will bring NOTHING positive to Warframe.

Pardon my tone & bad paragraphing. Worked a 10hr shift...I'm kind of dead atm.

Edited December 7, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029
Typo that was bothering me...

[Aramil999]

This topic is amazing at poiting at one issue with Stalker Mode:

-no opt out is unacceptable

yeah, ok, I pointed this out in my... maybe third post (litteraly days ago) and every single hater of this game mode has pointed this out that it shouldn't be forced.

This topic was derailed hard but whatever, because most people seems to read at best the title of thread I will just make new one stating that it SHOULD be opt in/out mode. Ofc  I will link this thread too.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

2 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

This topic is amazing at poiting at one issue with Stalker Mode:

-no opt out is unacceptable

yeah, ok, I pointed this out in my... maybe third post (litteraly days ago) and every single hater of this game mode has pointed this out that it shouldn't be forced.

This topic was derailed hard but whatever, because most people seems to read at best the title of thread I will just make new one stating that it SHOULD be opt in/out mode. Ofc  I will link this thread too.

It'll just get merged then this thread will lose all sort of sense.

The reason the thread can't get past that major stigma is because that's really the Core problem with the mode that it cannot get by. Period.
Stalker scaling to player power (I slightly touched on this), Stalker having invulnerable frames, Stalker having either customizable/multiple loadouts, choosing to go in as Shadow Stalker or Regular Stalker, does combat swap players over to PVP Mods, etc. All mean nothing if no one "Opts-In" to the mode.
Also the mode isn't worth DE time & resources if players do not want to participate in it.

The Warframe Community just is NOT a PVP embracing one. So most discussions on the matter will follow the same trend.
No need for another thread. Because DE already knows the answer to the issue.

"Add an Opt-In/Opt-Out" and have the majority of the playerbase ignore the mode.
or...
"Make it mandatory & endure the endless backlash & risk losing players at a steady pace."
 

[_JustSomeone_]

They should just make an ultra smart AI for stalker and be it xD..(give him a buff, make him a real threat and add new drops worth the increase of difficulty).

 

As for me. i would love to see a player controlled stalker :c

 

 

[Sziklamester]

21 minutes ago, _JustSomeone_ said:

They should just make an ultra smart AI for stalker and be it xD..(give him a buff, make him a real threat and add new drops worth the increase of difficulty).

 

As for me. i would love to see a player controlled stalker :c

 

 

Nobody can make an ultrasmart AI becasuse noone can imitate a real thinking being. They can improve it only and add more tactical variety but still peoples will cry about the ai is sucks and the game is not challenging enough.

No matter what DE do a large part of the playerbase will cry about it. There is a lot of subgroup in this community and you can name a lot of things what peoples hate it.

I personally not mind the player controlled stalker, if the stalker and players have a protection time and the stalker location on spawn would be invisible and random so the players could not camp farm him like how we do with the AI stalker. I still missing the despair so I need to kill in order more innocent idiot boss to get that one shiny.

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Sziklamester

[LupisV0lk]

To be frank, the best challenge this community can get is another player. The greatest game to hunt is man.

No one can make an AI good enough to supplement a human. Even then we'd have threads complaining about it if there was one.

Edited December 7, 2018 by LupisV0lk

[Urlan]

39 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

To be frank, the best challenge this community can get is another player. The greatest game to hunt is man.

No one can make an AI good enough to supplement a human. Even then we'd have threads complaining about it if there was one.

And yet, few play conclave. PvP isn't much about challenge as its easy to do and costs very effort on creating AI. If players wanted to just fight other players, conclave would always have lobbies full. Instead, its currently the least played content in the game.

[BornWithTeeth]

17 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 

i personally think the benefits outweigh the potential issues that should be solvable.

Returning to this one. As I’m pretty sure I’ve said several times now, albeit in slightly less explicit terms:

 

A solvable issue is not solvable if the will to fix it is not actually there, and the people who could fix it refuse to see the problem.

Someone on the dev team thought “Hey, what about an invasion system? Something Dark Souls-esque?” and then what they actually designed was a griefing engine.

 

My housemate does not play Warframe, but he is a Dark Souls veteran, so I described it to him. These were pretty much my exact words:

 “So, Warframe, the powersuit space ninjas game I’m always playing, they’re considering a Dark Souls style invasion system. Not quite Souls-like though, because when you invade another player you’re not using your own loadout and character, you use a shadowy stealth ‘frame. So you go in and attack other players like that. Unlike Dark Souls though, the invasion system hides the identity of the attacker, while allowing them to see the profile of their target. When they previewed it, the invader could search for known targets by name.      

    “Anyway, once you go down in a mission you can self revive, it costs you ten percent of the XP from the mission, so the systemic results aren’t gamebreaking. However, we’re a little concerned because the devs have specifically said they’d be looking at implementing it with no way to opt out or prevent it, which would be quite different from Souls or Bloodborne.”

 

His response was unprintable, not by this forum’s text filter. The gist was ‘What the **** were they thinking? What? How is that anything other than a license for toxic harassment?’

 

So, yeah. That’s part of the issue. This is what DE think a good invasion system looks like, Scott knows it won’t be liked by the players, and they’re considering doing it anyway.

 

Solvable issues my ass.

[Aramil999]

Stalker Mode is disscussed by devs quite often now so maybe we will see it in near future. 

However as majority of playerbase is PvE coop oriented. Forcing PvE players to do unwanted PvP could be annoying for many of them.

Consider adding Stalker Mode FOR willing players. What are your suggestions and what issues would such implementation face?

-How to make players interested in Stalker Mode? What rewards? 

-How to make it CONNECTED with the rest of the game, beacuse making some separate game mode (such as Conclave, and even more Lunaro) makes it very unpopular. Maybe some way to farm normal resources in special nodes where Stalker Can invade? Maybe add fissures to such PvE locations and there Stalker will invade? Or new location/planet where they can invade?

-What about strategies which are impossible for the stalker to win against:

. Atlas 1 spam (he can not dispell instant abilities so it won't help),

. Operators Void Mode,

Such strategies should have some way around them, or maybe they should be left as they are? 

-What about Conclave? Should introduction of such PvE+PvP mode be made with some kind of addition/change to Conclave?

-How to prevent trolling/griefing? Mission Objective being immune to Stalker, not being able to choose who you invade, timer preventing stalker from staling players for too long etc.

Some players will just say that Stalker Mode should be added to Conclave or deleted completly. Adding it to Concalve is waste of developers resources. Players saying that adding stalker mode at all is waste of resources is not a point because it already exists.

Positive thing that Stalker Mode could bring is to make players interested in both PvE and PvP stay in game. Maybe this could stop old veterans from leaving game.

The best time to introduce would be together with some big update, maybe with Railjack or New War in the future because adding any form of PvP as only update would be pointless and no new players will join game just because some PvP mode was added.

[Aramil999]

New thread about NOT forced stalker mode:

 

[BornWithTeeth]

Hmmmm.

 

I’d be cool with exclusive cosmetics from the mode, with a badge being earned for something like ten kills as the Stalker (call it the Edgy Killbeast badge) and a badge for successfully killing a Stalker invader ten times (call it the Oh Crap Hard Target badge).

 

In terms of lore...I’d be interested in weird Transference shenanigans as a result of a quest trying to find the Stalker, to find out whether the Stalker is/was a Tenno, whether they’re an awakened Warframe, all that jazz. Have the quest result in the player Operator sometimes ‘dreaming into’ the Stalker and taking control when it attacks other Tenno.

[W3zeer]

They scrapped raids because apparently not enough people played them. Now they want to add a new mode you can already see noone will play. How can you tell that? Just look at the abundance of conclave players. If anythng, ppl would try out the stalker mode for troll potential and not much more. I don't think these are ressources well spend and I'd rather not have that feature.

[BornWithTeeth]

6 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

They scrapped raids because apparently not enough people played them. Now they want to add a new mode you can already see noone will play. How can you tell that? Just look at the abundance of conclave players. If anythng, ppl would try out the stalker mode for troll potential and not much more. I don't think these are ressources well spend and I'd rather not have that feature.

He’s just had eighteen pages of people telling him that over in General Discussion, this is a thread for what people might like to see in a hypothetical non-rubbish implementation of the mode.

[kgabor]

Sure, keep it optional, give an incentive to have it toggled, like a smaller resource booster to make Kuva missions more interesting and possible unique drops in the form of weapon sidegrades. (nothing overpowered, just something shiny and/or interesting similar to the Braton/Lato Vandal or just a pre-built War/Broken War because farming it from sentients is a pain)

I never tried Conclave yet, but maybe this could help to get used to it.

To avoid stalling, just have it not effect when waves start at all.

[Guest]

Is this a continuation of the other thread because you were pissed with the Naysayers, OP?

Because it looks like it.

[W3zeer]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb BornWithTeeth:

He’s just had eighteen pages of people telling him that over in General Discussion, this is a thread for what people might like to see in a hypothetical non-rubbish implementation of the mode.

The question in the title is "can it help the game?". I answered that with a no, from my point of view. I wasn't aware I wasn't allowed to do that, but okay 😄 . No matter how you implement it, it wont make a difference as almost noone will experience it, in the worst case it will take effort away from core parts of the game. If it really has to happen but is supposed to be optional it absolutly has to be optional, meaning no rewards at all. Playing as the Stalker and thus possibly contorting his personality, should be reward enough, even if you only play against the same few Tenno. Also no continous balancing support, so the Stalker should become outdated though powercreep fairly quickly, which is kind of his thing: Scary to new players, a oneshot for Veterans. Only this kind of implementation ensures a fringe-gamemode wont interact negativly with the main-game. So no, it wont help the game but wouldn't hurt it as bad as if it was pursued like a real thing. I could only think of "more fun" interactions if I'd assume unlimited development ressources.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, FreeWilliam said:

'Opt-in-Stalker' could also just mean a toggle type option ('I'm opting in to Player Stalkers happening whenever') rather than some sort of queue you wait on...I agree that a login queue wouldn't work terribly well, but the Stalker mechanics have always been 'can happen in any mission' so the opt-in makes more sense as an ongoing thing with opt-OUT as something that's possibly more dynamic ('there are Stalkers invading, do you want to be safe from them?' as a popup, etc.)

The problem is, just as the DE fellow says, that with an opt-in or opt-out option the game mode will barely see any use, the reason why forced stalker mode is what he sees as the solution. That simply means that opt-in or not, the game mode will be a complete fail one way or another. It will either be a frustration for the masses that dont want their PvE bothered if it is forced and it will be a total waste of resources if it has an option to participate or not, since barely no one will use it, like the rest of the PvP in this game.

Even if it was to be a completely new game mode seperated from everything else it would be a waste because not enough people would play it. Sure people may say "how can you know that for sure?" and to them I say, just look at the activity in other PvP modes or the already removed one in this game.

[Gabbynaru]

Will it help the game? I kinda doubt it, but since the mode has already been developed and is functional, they may as well throw it in and see if it has any effect. (With opt-out, of course.)

[Shalath]

37 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

They scrapped raids because apparently not enough people played them.

No, they removed raids because they kept bugging out and they were having to devote too many dev resources to fixing them than they could justify for the small (if dedicated) numbers playing them.

I haven't watched a devstream for a while but the last time I saw this mentioned they flat out said forced PvP was just going to upset the majority of the player base and had no real intention of adding it to the game. It was just a fun thing they decided to show off. I may have missed something in a newer stream though.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Shalath said:

 

I haven't watched a devstream for a while but the last time I saw this mentioned they flat out said forced PvP was just going to upset the majority of the player base and had no real intention of adding it to the game. It was just a fun thing they decided to show off. I may have missed something in a newer stream though.

Tactical Tayto had a long interview with DE Scott a few days back, in which Scott said they’re looking for ways to bring Stalker mode into the game, but they would not be making it opt in/out because if they made it optional, no-one would opt in and it would just be a dead mode.

[SneakyErvin]

It doesnt matter what they do, it should stay out of the game because all it will be is a waste of resources no matter how they release it. People will either be frustrated, possibly leading to people leaving due to a forced version or it will simply be money thrown at something that a small fraction of the playerbase will use.

They've had 3 failed PvP modes already, Frame Fighter could be added but it was a spare time side project. One of the failed PvP modes has also been removed completely. They've also removed raids because it saw too little use.

Why should they waste resources on yet another project that few really want?

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Spoiler

Statement deleted due to new information.

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by (PS4)Riko_113
Classified information redacted.

[BornWithTeeth]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

So, basically he already said no one wants to do it. If they wanted to make it a Conclave game mode, I'd be fine with that, but that isn't likely since it would be the same as being a dead mode.

It was and is a curious statement, no?

“We wanna put this in the game, but we are under no illusions as to whether or not people will like and play it of their own will. Left to its own devices, the mode would be a huge failure because the majority of people would just switch it off.

“So we’re gonna make it mandatory to appease the edgelord minority, YOLO.”

[rand0mname]

What about doing it the old way - via event? A lot of game modes were introduced like that.

What if Tenno will found out via VOID MAGIC, mundane Chepalon spy-network, Palatino tarot reading, Perrin noticing something wrong in the resent shipment movement, Wally taunting or Alad V phone-call that Stalker is planning something big?

- Attack on a Relay or Dojo.

- Stalker got his grubby hands on Transference tech and is trying to recruit our frames to make more Akolytes.

- Wants to wake up Flydolon by Hunhow orders.

- Or we could run into Stalker then we will finally start looking for Space Mom by breaking into her Dad's house.

There is a lot of possibilities.

So, Tenno run various missions to gather information. After the first mission, our Operator has their VOID MAGIC misfiring and ends up in a Stalker head, thinks that they are Stalker (same way they think that they killed Issah) and attack their fellow Tenno. Or they try to stay in Stalker head as long as possible to do a little bit of mind-reading and go with the flow. Or they can try to help. Depending on the choice, we spawn as a friend (3 minutes, weakened) or an enemy (5 minutes, full arsenal and powers).

After that, we continue event, but now we can be invaded or invade. Maybe set a limit on how much you can be invaded or invade.

We provide feedback and data to DE, they tweak and balance Stalker mode. Thats the important part. Too many game features were forgotten. If they will have time and manpower to do it, Stalker mode can become popular enough for opt-out button not hurting player numbers.

Opt-out – what about cooldown? You can opt-out or opt-in once a week. Sorta like Darvo or Maroo mission.

Something has to be done about griefing - Stalker mode becoming as poisonous as Dark Sectors were would be a shame tbh.

Edit: aaaaand it was moved to feedback forums. Lovely.

Edited December 7, 2018 by rand0mname