Why Do People Need An Opt Out For Stalker Mode?

[EmberStar]

16 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

I love how PvE-only players hated even sight of Stalker Mode and any form or shape of PvP and said: "NOONE is interested in ANY pvp in Warframe" 

and now most post in this thread is people asking "why you have problem with stalker mode, seems interesting"

LMAO 😄 😄 😄

Not sure who you think you're talking about here.  I don't speak for anyone else, but *I* have never said that no one is interested in PVP.  And many of the recent posts are from people with either questionable reading skills, or no ability to consider things from any other point of view.  (Ie, the "I have a sandwich" brigade.  As in "I have a sandwich, therefore no one else can possibly be hungry.")  Personally, I'm quite aware that some people like PVP.  And I feel that their tastes are *more* than adequately catered to by a huge number of other online games.

Warframe is not a PVP focused game.  Every time the devs have mentioned numbers or shown a chart, over 90% of the Warframe playerbase *ignores* PVP.  In the chart @BornWithTeeth posted earlier, more people were playing *Junction* missions than Conclave on the particular weekend the chart recorded.  And the issue is *still* that the devs have not publicly stated that the mode will be Opt In.  (One of them may very well have said that, but it seems to have happened in a format that no one can link to as evidence.)

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

I'm working on the assumption Stalker Mode would be basically the same as current Stalker but player controlled. If you are marked from completing an assassination mission he has a chance to spawn. Either he kills one player in the mission and leaves, or you kill him. Either way he cannot spawn again this mission. If he kills you the only penalty is to possibly use up one of your revives for the mission.  I'm (I think reasonably) assuming stuff like Stalker being able to destroy objectives would be removed. As such I don't understand why people seem to be so vehement this must have an opt out. In the worst case scenario so many people play Stalker Mode he effectivly spawns every mission, and player controlled Stalker is so good he nearly always gets a kill. 

 

[EmberStar]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

 As such I don't understand why people seem to be so vehement this must have an opt out. In the worst case scenario so many people play Stalker Mode he effectivly spawns every mission, and player controlled Stalker is so good he nearly always gets a kill. 

 

Aside from what you *just typed,* the issue is that Stalker Mode is PVP.  Some people *do not like PVP.*  Please refer to the other *massive* threads on this topic.  And by that, I mean actually read any of them.

[Tsardova]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

I'm working on the assumption Stalker Mode would be basically the same as current Stalker but player controlled. If you are marked from completing an assassination mission he has a chance to spawn. Either he kills one player in the mission and leaves, or you kill him. Either way he cannot spawn again this mission. If he kills you the only penalty is to possibly use up one of your revives for the mission.  I'm (I think reasonably) assuming stuff like Stalker being able to destroy objectives would be removed. As such I don't understand why people seem to be so vehement this must have an opt out. In the worst case scenario so many people play Stalker Mode he effectivly spawns every mission, and player controlled Stalker is so good he nearly always gets a kill. 

 

There's your answer.... Player controlled enemies will never be the same as AI controlled enemies.

 

The majority of players playing this game is here for pure PVE content, Stalker mode without opt out is straight up force PVP. There's already threads detailing argument for and against it, just look it up.

[MystMan]

Look, you either get it or you don't.   People with little or no empathy will never understand.  If you still need to ask after the many threads about this, then you don't get it and no explanation will satisfy your curiosity. Nobody's mind got changed in all these topics, people will believe their own narrative as the absolute truth and dismiss others, no matter how many solid counter-arguments are presented.

[GnarlsDarkley]

I don't get the problems as well. It doesn't even matter imo if it is AI or player controlled. Stalker is always helpless against our invincible Operator 

[Xaero]

Stalker also drops blueprints. Those who are bad at PvP just won't get a chance.

[NeopetsMaster4432]

For the most part, it seems to be an arbitrary hate solely towards the inclusion of PVP, even if it wouldn't change anything or affect players any differently. Similar to hating changes just because they change something, even if they're beneficial towards players or the game. Even if this may be harmless(or beneficial) to the game, it doesn't suit their preferences of what an ideal Warframe looks like to some, which makes sense because this game's audience is mainly PVE oriented.

However, there are some concerns regarding game mechanics. Such as how peer to peer hosting can RIP the Stalker(even though it does the same for allied Tennos), and how weak the Stalker is right now. DE hasn't really shown any amazing ability to balance PVP instances, so it's likely that the Stalker will still continue to be no threat whatsoever, or absolutely destroy everyone~

Edited December 12, 2018 by NeopetsMaster4432

[ant99999]

Probably because the majority of PvE players doesn't like the opportunity to feel themselves weaker than someone else.

[WhiteMarker]

People rant about laggs.
Right now these laggs only affect AI. Now imagine PvP with horrible laggs.
Imagine the host get's to be the Stalker. Everything is fine for the host, but the clients suffer from horrible laggs.

Yeah... sounds like fun. Man, can't wait to have that much fun.

Stalker-Mode sounds fun on paper.
But if we look at the numbers, Warframe-players don't like PvP. DE already showed us some charts on how much PvP is played. Basically no one plays it.
But now they want to force PvP onto the players? Why?

The real question isn't about opting out and stuff.
The real question to ask is: Why does DE think of this as a good idea?
They know that people don't like PvP, so why forcing us to play it?

[UseNet]

Why do people need an new thread for stalker mode?

Use the search tool, OP.

[(PSN)vl_Monarch_lv]

Doesn't seem like a big deal.

Typical people whining about getting killed in a video game.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, Aramil999 said:

I love how PvE-only players hated even sight of Stalker Mode and any form or shape of PvP and said: "NOONE is interested in ANY pvp in Warframe" 

and now most post in this thread is people asking "why you have problem with stalker mode, seems interesting"

LMAO 😄 😄 😄

Not entirely true. Dismissing the usual "overreaction crowd" & those who are doomsayers. Those who have remained interested in this thread are mostly more on the level headed side of the spectrum.

The issue isn't with PVP itself. The issue has been with the supposedly "If we add it. We cannot have it be Opt-In because no one would play it." Remark.

Sometimes players want to PVE, other times they want to PVP. That's the fact of things.

A lot of the backlash also comes from the fact that every single game on the market that tried mixing PVE & PVP has failed, & usually in the desperate attempt to course correct the game often suffers in many aspects, from PVE nerfs, sandbox changes that unintentionally harm the majority of the game, & etc.

DE did the smart thing by separating the modes.

However DE did a poor job at keeping PVP (I mean no offense when I say this.) relevant. PVP is basically a Mini-Game (debatably) when you out it down on paper. However it is a mini-game with an incredibly high skill ceiling, is unforgivable in challenge, & quite punishing. Additionally, due to storyline reasons PVP is difficult to "justify". DE's PVP story is extremely weak & nigh non-existent.

I digress...

Now, "I" see no harm in the mode...IF there is an Opt-In & Opt-Out. And to play devil's advocate...if the mode is added. All players need to start with the mode "Turned Off" then via a questline be given the option to "Opt-In".

Best way I can figure this would be: "To play as The Stalker you are locked into the invasion being "Turned On" for a set period of time."

My dubious nature towards the mode comes from my experiences in MMORPGs & games like Destiny & The Division.

[FrostedMike]

Beside the PVP issue that was already mentioned, I will give you the balancing and design issue.

First of all, there is no way we will be able to have mods as Stalker, we will have fixed stats to our weapons and "frame". The catch is that there need to be a fine balance as mods play a big part in the game and make a big difference.
Let's say you are a veteran player, you got everything in the game and know how to play good. You happen to take on a new player as Stalker, what chance does he have? You clearly move faster and know the game better. This probubly won't be fun for him to lose every time a veteran shows up as Stalker simply because he doesn't know the game as good as them. Now let's say you happen to take on another veteran, what chace do you have against him? He got mods built for PVE, this is a huge advantage for him. Will it be fun for you to lose every time you take on a veteran simply because he got better gear that you can't have for this mode?
As you can see, unbalanced.
Stalker was designed to be possible to defeat, as every other enemy is. Enemies were designed to present themselves to be a target, and a game won't be fun if you are unable to hit the enemy or if the enemy doesn't play fair. A player doesn't play like an AI, a player know to dodge bullets at the right moment and take advantage of the environment better, a player is far less predictable than an AI.

It's a tricky feature, I think this is why DE got stuck with adding it.

[Tsardova]

33 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

I don't get the problems as well. It doesn't even matter imo if it is AI or player controlled. Stalker is always helpless against our invincible Operator 

... Answered your own question there dude...

 

Player Stalker is just a nuisance to those who tolerate the mode while demotivating as heck for players who play as the stalker since it's a pretty much guaranteed loss. It's oxymoronic in nature, no 2 ways bout it.

[Gabbynaru]

Because I don't wanna be anywhere near PvP. Simple as that.

[GnarlsDarkley]

1 minute ago, Tsardova said:

.. Answered your own question there dude..

There was no question in my post.

I was stating that Stalker will never have any chance if DE won't disable the Operator while the encounter. And they can't do this because of Stalkers' adaptation ability and how we were told to use the Operator to reset those resistances..

So if they implement this mode they need to address this dilemma. I always thought Stalker Mode was just for funsies while Devstreams/Tennocon until I saw the Q&A with Scott

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

19 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Aside from what you *just typed,* the issue is that Stalker Mode is PVP.  Some people *do not like PVP.*  Please refer to the other *massive* threads on this topic.  And by that, I mean actually read any of them.

I don't understand why my worst case scenario (that I also suspect is highly unlikely) is a bad thing. Some might even argue it is a good thing.

18 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

There's your answer.... Player controlled enemies will never be the same as AI controlled enemies.

 

The majority of players playing this game is here for pure PVE content, Stalker mode without opt out is straight up force PVP. There's already threads detailing argument for and against it, just look it up.

So the sole reason for needing an opt out is the pure principal of not wanting to fight another player regardless if the consequences are no different from fighting an npc? Given that player controlled Stalker would be ultimately no different from improving npc Stalkers ai why is the knowledge he is player controlled important?

 

I realise there a already threads about this with numerous respones. They are cluttered with disscusions of multiple issues. I wanted to focus on why a Stalker Mode with results and consequences no different from current Stalker would be a problem. I felt a new thread was the best way to achive this focus. If you disagree and belive this to be spam I apologies.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

42 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

I don't get the problems as well. It doesn't even matter imo if it is AI or player controlled. Stalker is always helpless against our invincible Operator 

So imagine trying to fight that Operator? You know the moment you see the Operator appear that you've lost.

7 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

Player Stalker is just a nuisance to those who tolerate the mode while demotivating as heck for players who play as the stalker since it's a pretty much guaranteed loss. It's oxymoronic in nature, no 2 ways bout it.

The thing here is that there is nothing DE can do to change Operator gameplay vs Stalker. To do so would :

1. "Negatively" impact PVE for PVP (which is part of what so many are up in arms about.

2. Be a slap in the face for players who actually have built & developed  their Operator from weakling to God.

I know from other games that the moment Operators start teaching Stalker a lesson there will be Salt...and epic amounts of it.

Lastly for some it's a matter of principle.

So people want to cooperate & get along with others. Not fight them to the death.

Not everyone wants to fight other players. Period. No matter the rewards.

Edited December 12, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029

[FlusteredFerret]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

I'm working on the assumption Stalker Mode would be basically the same as current Stalker but player controlled. If you are marked from completing an assassination mission he has a chance to spawn. Either he kills one player in the mission and leaves, or you kill him. Either way he cannot spawn again this mission. If he kills you the only penalty is to possibly use up one of your revives for the mission.  I'm (I think reasonably) assuming stuff like Stalker being able to destroy objectives would be removed. As such I don't understand why people seem to be so vehement this must have an opt out. In the worst case scenario so many people play Stalker Mode he effectivly spawns every mission, and player controlled Stalker is so good he nearly always gets a kill. 

 

Thats a big part of the issue right there.

We don't know much about how it would actually be implemented and whether player controlled Stalkers WOULD, in fact, work just like the AI.

Thing is, if they do, then I can't imagine its going to be much fun for those playing Stalker...repeatedly getting killed & going back to...your Lander?

 

The only viable way to make it fun for them would be to allow Stalker to heal / revive in the same way as regular players...which then has the potential for them to be a massive nuisance (troll) to players just trying to get on with PvE missions.

 

And you answered your own question right there in the second highlighted section. Right now Stalker is an OCCASIONAL nuisance. Nobody wants to be having to deal with him, potentially every time they click on a mission.

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by FlusteredFerret

[Nez-Kal]

After a 10 hour daily work shift, I Hate people. Nobody else's fault, I've just used up my entire Social Battery for the day at work, and would rather not deal with any more social interactions afterwards.

If anything, I'll be the one to ruin other people's fun, as after they worked to get the "Stalker Tokens", and are invading another player's mission, suddenly that player Alt-F4's and crashes the connection, forcing that Stalker to wait way longer than they would to get their chance to try again elsewhere. (It's not fun for me, it's not fun for them, and everyone has that much more of a bad day)

(If it's during the Weekend, that might be another story, but my hour after getting off work......Nope.)

[RX-3DR]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

I don't understand why my worst case scenario (that I also suspect is highly unlikely) is a bad thing. Some might even argue it is a good thing.

So the sole reason for needing an opt out is the pure principal of not wanting to fight another player regardless if the consequences are no different from fighting an npc? Given that player controlled Stalker would be ultimately no different from improving npc Stalkers ai why is the knowledge he is player controlled important?

There is a potentially high possibility of it becoming a drawn out frustrating roadblock than anything else. If a Stalker player were to simply run around and avoid combat but constantly use abilities to disrupt the squad when available, it just creates a pretty frustrating and pointless experience.

[rand0mname]

9 часов назад, (PS4)negativ21 сказал:

There is literally no purpose to this game mode being added except for trolling and the experience. DE was talking about it recently as if it was somehow good for the player base to experience, while simultaneously acknowledging that if it had an opt-out option pretty much everyone would choose to opt out.

As far as I can tell, all topics about Stalker mode in GD are about “do not force it”, not about “do not want it”. I suspect DE got it. This thread is about finding a carrot for "95% of Tenno". Is it even possible? Can it even be balanced? No finding out without trying.

9 часов назад, (PS4)negativ21 сказал:

Do they realize that they are basically acknowledging the game mode will not be played or enjoyed, and continuing to develop it anyway..?

Long time ago DE did try to find a publisher, but have been turned down on the grounds that there is no interest for sci-fi shooters. And yet, here we are.

9 часов назад, (PS4)negativ21 сказал:

Ok, im sure there is some minor purpose, but its pretty clear the game mode doesn't generate a lot of interest, as far as i can tell.

Threads about Stalker do creep up from time to time. People muse that Stalker (Shadow Stalker mostly) is too easy to kill and that he needs a buff. I seen players sharing freaky/funny/rage/awesome accidents they had with Stalker. I followed lore discussions about Stalker and Acolytes. In game, I run into Tenno wearing Stalker colors and Sigil. I seen PvP players asking for something. Based on that, I think Stalker mode has some potential. If it is forced, it will probably burn, but in this thread we assume that there is an opt-out option.

9 часов назад, (PS4)negativ21 сказал:

If DE keeps adding crappy side games like this, conclave, lunaro, and AW effectively just for kicks and "trying new things' = "experimenting on their player base" they deserve a lot of the S#&$ they get for em. I say this because they don't seem to be learning their lesson or listening to their player base. 

In the long run not experimenting at all can be as detrimental as experimenting too much. Based on what I seen in Fortuna, DE do pay attention to what player say. As long as there is an opt-out option and DE listens to feedback, I am cautiously optimistic. And I am not a fun of PvP.

1 час назад, Aramil999 сказал:

that hated thread I made last time

You started quite a fire. Ember would be proud.

[trst]

Honestly people are overreacting to this.

I understand that "forced" PvP never sounds good but it's so disgustingly in favor of the receiving player that we could have had this system already and nobody would have noticed.

Stalker is so easily trivialized that isn't even funny. Having player controlled Stalkers would at best occasionally make a mission more interesting for someone while at worst "waste" a Revive, which if someone died to a player Stalker they'd have probably died to an AI Stalker anyways.

[.Naximi.]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

So the sole reason for needing an opt out is the pure principal of not wanting to fight another player regardless if the consequences are no different from fighting an npc? 

Yes. I do not want to fight another player in Warframe. I play this game to cooperate with others. When I win, others win too. With player-controlled Stalker, someone will always lose, and that's not fun. And forcing me to fight an other player, to kill them and make them waste their time, just so I can keep getting loot from Stalker is really not nice.