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True pacifist - John woo style


(XBOX)Nightseid
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I feel what would been more suitable or impressive if DE had baruuk be the only warframe to be completely restricted from equipping a weapon (at least unusable in mission) except his exhalted fist - forcing player to block, channel and counter.

Then occasionally he arms himself with the disarmed enemies weapon and shoots their guns for a short duration or for one magazine, maybe?

Weapons mods would apply to the enemy weapon he weilds.

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Important note: Do not restrict the base game play of a game unless you create an equally functional way to interact with it as compensation. As Baruuch's abilities do not have the scope to make gameplay as functional as having gunplay mixed in with them, this is not a compensation. Furthermore, he is not a strictly a 'pacifist', he has most often been referred to as the 'reluctant hero', not that he won't fight, but that he doesn't until he needs to.

Further note: Ability only gameplay is often not viable in Warframe due to, but not limited to; Nullifiers, Magnetic door traps, Energy Leech Eximus, Disruptor Eximus, enemies with specific damage windows such as heads or weak points that are unable to be targeted directly by abilities, Nightmare drain mode, Eidolons, falling in the water on The Plains of Eidolon.

Final point on this; enemy weapons are un-modded and deal virtually no damage against enemies of a similar level, especially not when they are Grineer with Armour. They scale up to the point where they can kill us, true, but never out-scale each other. This is the reason that Nyx's Mind Control has the augment Mind Freak and is now getting a rework to allow us to charge up the damage they can deal to the point where they are capable of killing their allies.

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15 hours ago, peterc3 said:

They aren't going to introduce a frame that invalidates everyone's favorite weapons and requires they have to touch every single enemy this would work on, just for a single frame.

De has always been willing to push boundaries. 

14 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Important note: Do not restrict the base game play of a game unless you create an equally functional way to interact with it as compensation. As Baruuch's abilities do not have the scope to make gameplay as functional as having gunplay mixed in with them, this is not a compensation. Furthermore, he is not a strictly a 'pacifist', he has most often been referred to as the 'reluctant hero', not that he won't fight, but that he doesn't until he needs to.

Further note: Ability only gameplay is often not viable in Warframe due to, but not limited to; Nullifiers, Magnetic door traps, Energy Leech Eximus, Disruptor Eximus, enemies with specific damage windows such as heads or weak points that are unable to be targeted directly by abilities, Nightmare drain mode, Eidolons, falling in the water on The Plains of Eidolon.

Final point on this; enemy weapons are un-modded and deal virtually no damage against enemies of a similar level, especially not when they are Grineer with Armour. They scale up to the point where they can kill us, true, but never out-scale each other. This is the reason that Nyx's Mind Control has the augment Mind Freak and is now getting a rework to allow us to charge up the damage they can deal to the point where they are capable of killing their allies.

All your points can be summed up as ... ability only gameplay can be viable but only as you alluded, if several changes to supplement gun play would need to be consider.

Also reluctant hero is a moniker that does not fit for any one warframe, as per lore all operators and warframes (especially umbra) fit the literary description. If anything Baruuk should labelled more "warrior monk".

13 hours ago, KamikazeKamanzi said:

Keeping it short and sweet, your suggestion would not be practical. Remember, even John Wick has to get down and dirty with sidearms of his choosing and so should we. 

I did not make the suggestion to be practical, as my first line states: 

16 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

I feel what would been more suitable or impressive if DE had baruuk be the only warframe to be completely restricted from equipping a weapon (at least unusable in mission) except his exhalted fist - forcing player to block, channel and counter.

 

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48 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Also reluctant hero is a moniker that does not fit for any one warframe, as per lore all operators and warframes (especially umbra) fit the literary description. If anything Baruuk should labelled more "warrior monk".

Hey ^^ this is the Devs talking, they're the ones saying 'reluctant hero' all over their DevStreams and Twitter feeds. Can you blame me for using it when that's their own terminology?

49 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

All your points can be summed up as ... ability only gameplay can be viable but only as you alluded, if several changes to supplement gun play would need to be consider.

Pretty much, but the first point is more general; in any game, any at all, you can't take away a part of the game's interaction methods unless you're offering a new way to interact. Take a simple game like Cluster Truck, your main interaction is jumping from point to point using gravity to judge where you're going and how you can get there. However there are plenty of ways that it can be messed with, the simplest being to put in a drop and have the trucks free-fall, meaning that you have to jump ahead of gravity in order to reach the next point before you're landed on. The core of the gameplay, however, is unchanged, because you're still jumping from truck to truck and not allowed to touch the ground, the limitation is now gravity working against you, not with you, and the compensation is that your jumps now do not need to take into account gravity as a downwards force, because you're jumping towards it and your trajectory becomes more predictably flat.

So, that's the general one. The second is where I'm more specific.

One thing is clear; Warframe Abilities are the most powerful thing this game offers for interacting, and so there are specifically introduced methods for the enemies to counter and even prevent you from using them. In that light, you would pretty much have to remove those limiting factors again in order for this to work. So as I said, that point is more specific than the first, applying specifically here.

The third... meh, it's as specific as it gets.

What you'd have to think about is that because Baruuch's main 'damage' ability, which is his 4, creates an Ability Weapon, then even your plan of offering the option to pick up enemy weapons wouldn't then help, because weapons still could not be equipped during the Ability Weapon activation.

So, while I can see the conceptual point of your thread, it does have some flaws right from the outset that would specifically inhibit what you're suggesting.

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On 2018-12-13 at 9:38 AM, Thaylien said:

So, while I can see the conceptual point of your thread, it does have some flaws right from the outset that would specifically inhibit what you're suggesting

Ok, so let’s think what could make this design at least a more viable concept.

Passive:

1.      Melee only– so I guess restricting all weapons is silly, so instead restrict the Baruuk to only equipping melee weapons, like “Pacifist” Morgan (from Walking Dead). 

2.      Add passive that melee attacks have a (30 -50%) to have enemies drop weapons.

3.      This passive that allows Baruuk to pick up dropped weapons; Hold weapon swap to drop or throw weapon.

a.      I find most enemy firearms are within our own arsenals. For those with firearms not in our arsenal, they could have a chance to drop a faction-based secondary.

b.      Enemy weapon damage- so these weapons will have the same stats as our arsenal counterparts, since these cannot be modded as they are picked up in missions their base damage will be based off the enemy lvl that drop the weapon then Baruuk’s power strength will added on top. So a dropped Gorgan + lvl100 enemy + Baruuk Power strength = total weapon damage.

                                                    i.     elemental damage will be based of Baruuk’s exalted fists or equipped melee weapon.

 

Ability 1 – elude – no change

 

Ability 2- sedative – personally I’m like this feels like a wasted ability –it’s another slowing and sleep ability. But for the purpose of this thought experiment it can remains as is.

 

Ability 3-subdue –instead of daggers seeking enemies automatically, they need to be manually triggered. So target enemy to disarmed (and 100% of dropping weapon) or target ally to bestow.

 

Ability 4-Savage – no change

 

Inspiration for this concept – a lot of kung fu movies, the bare-fist hero, and DE’s Dark Sectors- although Hayden does have a sidearm, you mostly pick up and use random enemy weapons for a short duration throughout the game. So Baruuk can be a nod to that classic DE gameplay style.

Edited by (XB1)Nightseid
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2 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Ok, so let’s think what could make this design at least a more viable concept.

If you're going for a pacifist frame, then yeah, buuuuuut on point before we start:

 

With that said, let's take a look:

2 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

 Passive:

So what do you do on weapon-type restricted missions, such as Sorties with bow/sniper/shotgun/rifle only?

2 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

3.      This passive that allows Baruuk to pick up dropped weapons; Hold weapon swap to drop or throw weapon.

While you've tried to get this to work by giving the weapon base damage of the enemy scaled level, plus his power strength, this still won't actually work, and that's because even though the weapons do appear in our arsenal, it's the modding that actually makes them powerful at all.

A scaled level 100 Gorgon won't do diddly against the Heavy Gunner it came from without having some functional stats on there like multi-shot, critical chance and damage, Elemental damage and status chance.

Let's take some experimental Maths. A level 100 Grineer Heavy Gunner's Gorgon does a scaled damage of...

Base Damage × ( 1 + ( Current Level − Base Level )1.55 × 0.015 ) from the Wiki, meaning that the base of 25 damage per shot would scale to

25 x ( 1 + ( 100 - 8 )1.55 x 0.015 )  or just 414.86 damage.

With 200% Power Strength, let's be fair, that would be double to 829.72

Now, compare that to a modded Gorgon, just the base model you get dropping as blueprints from the gunners themselves and only a base build (Serration, Split Chamber, Vital Sense, Point Strike, Vigilante Armaments, Stormbringer, Infected Clip plus a spare slot for something like Hunter Munitions) that gives you a per-shot of 920 damage, but also a 1-in-5 chance per shot to reduce armour and about a 1-in-3 chance per shot to cause a Bleed proc for around 300 or so per tick. This does not take into account what you can do with a Riven for the thing to improve Reload and Status.

And that Gorgon, modded to be better than your Passive, still won't kill that level 100 Heavy Gunner all that fast. I tried a quick test, it takes a while even when you pause the AI so you can get every shot as a headshot and proc all the slash and corrosive. That Gunner has 976,632 Effective health thanks to its armour. Unmodded, with your Passive, that would still take you a thousand shots to chew through.

Enemy weapons just do not scale to the point where they are viable to use against the enemies.

I mean, the only option you'd have is to make a Passive capable of boosting the damage of enemy weapons to the point where they did scale, and that just gives a warframe infinite damage scaling for practically no investment. Get a single kill and then away you go. And I've seen frames nerfed hard for being able to scale that well even with energy investment. I was around when Mag scaled infinitely on Void and Corpus tiles, it existed, it got driven into the ground.

So this would never make it into a passive. I think you should look into it again, my friend, and see what you can work with.

And as a final note for this particular reply:

3 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Ability 3-subdue –instead of daggers seeking enemies automatically, they need to be manually triggered. So target enemy to disarmed (and 100% of dropping weapon) or target ally to bestow.

The ability has been stated to be recastable, there is literally no downside for having this as an automatic function, especially when Warframe is so fast paced and people would often not want to miss an enemy they hadn't quite seen around the corner of a box.

But making a manual function would likely mean that, quite besides not having some automated disarm defense, for when you're not-quite-paying-attention or when you didn't know you ally was hoping for a dagger and you just didn't notice, you would then make it more difficult to recast and refresh the ability when you wanted to as well.

You'd likely introduce the infamously irritating 'tap/hold' mechanic, or force in something contextual like 'while aiming at an enemy/ally, X, when no enemies in sight, Y' which are even more irritating than tap/holds.

I like the daggers automated, to the degree they are, with the ability to refresh them before the ability ends so I can keep up my DR. That's a decent concept, so let's not lose it.

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On 2018-12-14 at 4:26 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

If you're going for a pacifist frame, then yeah, buuuuuut on point before we start:

 

With that said, let's take a look:

So what do you do on weapon-type restricted missions, such as Sorties with bow/sniper/shotgun/rifle only?

While you've tried to get this to work by giving the weapon base damage of the enemy scaled level, plus his power strength, this still won't actually work, and that's because even though the weapons do appear in our arsenal, it's the modding that actually makes them powerful at all.

A scaled level 100 Gorgon won't do diddly against the Heavy Gunner it came from without having some functional stats on there like multi-shot, critical chance and damage, Elemental damage and status chance.

Let's take some experimental Maths. A level 100 Grineer Heavy Gunner's Gorgon does a scaled damage of...

Base Damage × ( 1 + ( Current Level − Base Level )1.55 × 0.015 ) from the Wiki, meaning that the base of 25 damage per shot would scale to

25 x ( 1 + ( 100 - 8 )1.55 x 0.015 )  or just 414.86 damage.

With 200% Power Strength, let's be fair, that would be double to 829.72

Now, compare that to a modded Gorgon, just the base model you get dropping as blueprints from the gunners themselves and only a base build (Serration, Split Chamber, Vital Sense, Point Strike, Vigilante Armaments, Stormbringer, Infected Clip plus a spare slot for something like Hunter Munitions) that gives you a per-shot of 920 damage, but also a 1-in-5 chance per shot to reduce armour and about a 1-in-3 chance per shot to cause a Bleed proc for around 300 or so per tick. This does not take into account what you can do with a Riven for the thing to improve Reload and Status.

And that Gorgon, modded to be better than your Passive, still won't kill that level 100 Heavy Gunner all that fast. I tried a quick test, it takes a while even when you pause the AI so you can get every shot as a headshot and proc all the slash and corrosive. That Gunner has 976,632 Effective health thanks to its armour. Unmodded, with your Passive, that would still take you a thousand shots to chew through.

Enemy weapons just do not scale to the point where they are viable to use against the enemies.

I mean, the only option you'd have is to make a Passive capable of boosting the damage of enemy weapons to the point where they did scale, and that just gives a warframe infinite damage scaling for practically no investment. Get a single kill and then away you go. And I've seen frames nerfed hard for being able to scale that well even with energy investment. I was around when Mag scaled infinitely on Void and Corpus tiles, it existed, it got driven into the ground.

So this would never make it into a passive. I think you should look into it again, my friend, and see what you can work with.

And as a final note for this particular reply:

The ability

On 2018-12-14 at 4:26 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

The ability has been stated to be recastable, there is literally no downside for having this as an automatic function, especially when Warframe is so fast paced and people would often not want to miss an enemy they hadn't quite seen around the corner of a box.

But making a manual function would likely mean that, quite besides not having some automated disarm defense, for when you're not-quite-paying-attention or when you didn't know you ally was hoping for a dagger and you just didn't notice, you would then make it more difficult to recast and refresh the ability when you wanted to as well.

You'd likely introduce the infamously irritating 'tap/hold' mechanic, or force in something contextual like 'while aiming at an enemy/ally, X, when no enemies in sight, Y' which are even more irritating than tap/holds.

I like the daggers automated, to the degree they are, with the ability to refresh them before the ability ends so I can keep up my DR. That's a decent concept, so let's not lose it.

 

Well played on all parts.

You made some very solid point particularly with the damage scaling. I'm sure there is a viable solution out there, as to what it is however I can say because it would been implemented by now. Regardless, I still think it would be a cool concept of disarming enemies and using against their weapons against them.

I welcome you to review other concepts I have current or create later on.

As for subdue - I missed the part that it was relatable, so I redact that comment

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34 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Well played on all parts.

 You made some very solid point particularly with the damage scaling. I'm sure there is a viable solution out there, as to what it is however I can say because it would been implemented by now. Regardless, I still think it would be a cool concept of disarming enemies and using against their weapons against them.

I welcome you to review other concepts I have current or create later on.

As for subdue - I missed the part that it was relatable, so I redact that comment

Many thanks, and I'll be sure to come back when you try again ^^ I have a penchant for concepting abilities and for arguing mechanics, so any time you think of an idea, bounce it off me.

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27 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Many thanks, and I'll be sure to come back when you try again ^^ I have a penchant for concepting abilities and for arguing mechanics, so any time you think of an idea, bounce it off me.

Challange accepted. Lol

But serious thanks for the constructive feedback.

Edited by (XB1)Nightseid
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