Tiered Weapons Or All Viable?

[ApolloBiff]

Ok. I assume this has already been talked about but I need to know. In the current state weapons are basically tiered making some direct upgrades to others such as skana and cronus. Now small places like beginning game weapons to others are ok, but I hate how if you are using a weapon that you love, that is considered a noob weapon, you can't use it in end game missions even if potatoed and white potatoed many times. It doesn't work well at all. I want all weapons to be balanced and end game viable like frames so desperately need. I want to hear from the general players. Of warframe. Do you guys want this or do you want the tiers? I vote for all weapons viable!

[ProjectKaeon]

Weapons are probably going to be all viable after U10 Resistances are getting an overhaul.

[Scheifen]

Weapons are probably going to be all viable after U10 Resistances are getting an overhaul.

 

I think there will still be some tiers, but hopefully most weapons will be end-game viable afterwards. Everything will be more viable for end game, if nothing else. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Scott said that in an ideal world, everything would be sidegrades.  In practice however, for some unstated reason, they are instead going for low and high tier weaponry.

[ValhaHazred]

I personally interpret that as "it's impossible to perfectly balance everything. Some things will always be better, so in effect their will be tiers." Then again, the Hind is a straight upgrade of Burstron and all the exclusive weapons are head and shoulders above any other weapon in their category.

[Firetempest]

Some weapons will just be plain better than others. That was the point of mastery level locks. All of them can get you anywhere. but some are just much easier to make effective.

To make every single one of these weapons just as equally balanced as the next is a bit of a pipe dream especially with wide raging mechanics such as poison, armor ignore, knockdown, sticky rounds, self hurting abilities, AOE, elementals. burst counts, charging and so on.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Firetempest

[LazyKnight]

I am fine with tiers, I have played far too many RPG to ever care about power creep or outdated weapon. That being said, If stick 5 forma in a t1 weapon I at least expect to be able to force it to be decent. Weapons like Jaw sword can not be made useable no matter what is done to it and I have an issues with something being that utterly useless.

[ValhaHazred]

I am fine with tiers, I have played far too many RPG to ever care about power creep or outdated weapon.

It's the same for me and I play old school shooters.

Who ever went back to the pistol after getting anything else in any FPS made before 2000?

In the Doom/Quake games they deliberately had one gun that replaces another.

Shotgun<SuperShotgun, Pistol/Machinegun<Chaingun, Nailgun<Perforator, GrenadeL<RocketL, PlasmaR/HyperBlaster<BFG

I see nothing wrong with tiers.

[TheWebbliestPrime]

I am fine with tiers, I have played far too many RPG to ever care about power creep or outdated weapon. That being said, If stick 5 forma in a t1 weapon I at least expect to be able to force it to be decent. Weapons like Jaw sword can not be made useable no matter what is done to it and I have an issues with something being that utterly useless.

Well, not to be condescending, but that Jaw Sword issue may be a matter of you not using/modding the Jaw Sword properly, because it works pretty damn well for me, one of my favorite swords. But I agree, I don't mind the tiering, especially since that's how weapons in any good, actually balanced game are. Armor ignoring weapons trump others in this game for the same reason they do in any other game: they are BETTER. They IGNORE armor. If you're using a regular bullet weapon and you're expecting it to be anywhere near as viable as an armor-ignore weapon, It shows you know little to nothing about the concept of armor in video games and how it's supposed to work. I'm not trying to be condescending or insulting when I say these things, just telling the honest truth. The damage system doesn't need to be overhauled, players just need to stop whining and accept that some weapons will always be better than others and if their favorite weapon isn't one of them, too bad. Man up and get a better weapon, or at least don't &!$$ and moan when your weapon is outclassed. Some weapons will be better than others. Sometimes I really think a lot of these people that whine are the types that think an SMG should do as much damage as an RPG missile.

Edited September 10, 2013 by TheWebbliest

[LazyKnight]

Well, not to be condescending, but that Jaw Sword issue may be a matter of you not using/modding the Jaw Sword properly, because it works pretty damn well for me, one of my favorite swords.

Well last time I had one was u7 or u8 before buffs to pressure point mod. I haven't made it again now that normal attacks are buffed. I just do not have good memories of it because I leveled pangolin sword, skana and bunch of other melee weapons in the same week.

 

I am sorry insulting you favorite weapon.

Edited September 10, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Amistyrja]

I thought a sidegrading arsenal would be an interesting experience so I tried this game out. It's gone now and I've been left wondering.

[Dasmir]

Scott said that in an ideal world, everything would be sidegrades.  In practice however, for moneygrabbing reasons, they are instead going for low and high tier weaponry.

 

True reason, DE needs to eat too.

[Zankurosys]

Well, not to be condescending, but that Jaw Sword issue may be a matter of you not using/modding the Jaw Sword properly, because it works pretty damn well for me, one of my favorite swords. But I agree, I don't mind the tiering, especially since that's how weapons in any good, actually balanced game are. Armor ignoring weapons trump others in this game for the same reason they do in any other game: they are BETTER. They IGNORE armor. If you're using a regular bullet weapon and you're expecting it to be anywhere near as viable as an armor-ignore weapon, It shows you know little to nothing about the concept of armor in video games and how it's supposed to work. I'm not trying to be condescending or insulting when I say these things, just telling the honest truth. The damage system doesn't need to be overhauled, players just need to stop whining and accept that some weapons will always be better than others and if their favorite weapon isn't one of them, too bad. Man up and get a better weapon, or at least don't &!$$ and moan when your weapon is outclassed. Some weapons will be better than others. Sometimes I really think a lot of these people that whine are the types that think an SMG should do as much damage as an RPG missile.

Despite that lengthy response, I cannot accept that the damage system does not need changing. Why would DE go through the trouble of changing the way their damage system works if it didn't need it? This is a direct result of the company addressing the concerns of the community.

[kgb_cyborg]

I personally interpret that as "it's impossible to perfectly balance everything. Some things will always be better, so in effect their will be tiers." Then again, the Hind is a straight upgrade of Burstron and all the exclusive weapons are head and shoulders above any other weapon in their category.

Braton Vandal, Lato Vandal are excellent examples of exclusives (sidegrades of existing weapons); Lato Prime and Skana Prime are decent examples (straight upgrades, but not ridiculous). So when you say "all the exclusive weapons", you mean "the two most recent exclusive weapons"?

[ValhaHazred]

While tiers are fine, having one damage type be better against literally every enemy in the game is too onesided the other way. There should be ok, good and great weapons in every category.

Braton Vandal, Lato Vandal are excellent examples of exclusives (sidegrades of existing weapons); Lato Prime and Skana Prime are decent examples (straight upgrades, but not ridiculous). So when you say "all the exclusive weapons", you mean "the two most recent exclusive weapons"?

Ok so the Brandal isn't great compared to the other Bratons, but my point stands that the others are better. The LaVal is much better than the Lato and LaPrime and SkaPrime are both better than the originals if not to the same degree as Snidal and Straith.

Note I'm not saying that's bad, in fact I'm one of the first people to argue exclusives should be better.

Edited September 10, 2013 by ValhaHazred

[Guest]

viability4lyfe

[Vaskadar]

Scott said that in an ideal world, everything would be sidegrades.  In practice however, for some unstated reason, they are instead going for low and high tier weaponry.

I think the idea of role-types and special properties will make the game's weaponry usage more diverse.

[Servanin]

Armor ignoring weapons are all non-hit scan, have lower accurate and are generally lower DPS than bullet weapons. Thats the penalty for using them. Personally I haven't really felt a big difference between bullet and armor ignoring. Even by level 70, it takes me more than a full magazine to kill an Ancient with Boltor. Same mods, same capacity (Both potatoed) braton can do the same thing a little faster if I just aim at the right leg.

[ApolloBiff]

I mean ik that vandal prime weapons should be upgrades but what about say my first pistol I made was sicarus. I like this gun. I decide to level it, and eventually I find white potatoing and add a blue potato too. That gun still won't be near as high performing as the same even less potatoed kunai. Not because its a burst pistol, but because its tiered. It prevents me from using the gun I love. That's is just an example btw. Not accurate with my favs le lawl

[Alphascrub]

One of the things that people should be aware of is the fact that there is a large gap between a weapon being viable and being best in slot. Ideally a weapon like the Braton would be viable at all levels of play, but it will not be the best weapon. Metaphorically the Braton is a single mail man on foot, where as the Braton Prime is UPS delivery truck. Sure you can still use the Braton/Mail Man, but at some point or another you are going to upgrade to the Braton Prime/UPS truck because its faster, more efficient, and just all around works better.

The term viable is pretty loose and I imagine DE plans on making all weapons "viable" but you will still do better at higher levels of play with higher tiered guns. The issue with the current damage system isn't the fact that we don't have viable weapons, its the fact that many weapons become "unviable" if they don't have armor ignore or armor piercing. Metaphorically speaking instead of using Brown to deliver my mail, I have to use UPS. That's not cool, what if I like both? What if I like choice? What if I want to use a fleet of paper airplanes to send my mail? In other word the changes to the damage system is going to give players the choice of what weapons they want to use.

I personally want two things from update 10. One make all damage types and weapon types viable in late-game play. Two make high tier weapons like the clan crafted items (and void stuff, and alert mission stuff), superior than that of their none clan counter parts.

So yea, feel free to use your Mail man, Hell forma him a few times, give him a jetpack ect ect, but you should know, my fleet of acrid UPS trucks are still going to exist and still are still going to do it better, but at least will honk when we pass your mail man now instead of running him over.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Alphascrub

[AscendantWyvern]

Personally, Im ALL for Sidegrade weapons. I was deeply disappointed that Scott stated his intention of Tiered weapons (though I applaud his honesty for it)

 

Tiered weapons just brings up complicated issues. Particularly what people interpret to be the tiers.

 

For a LOT of people (including myself) Tiers would be linked to how you obtain it. 

 

Tier 1: Starter Tier: Weapons you can purchase straight up with credits. 

 

Tier 2: Intermediate and Viable Tier: Weapons that you craft or can buy with Platinum.

 

Tier 3: Endgame Tier: Weapons that you HAVE to obtain through playing the game.

 

 

What's the issue with this? The current layout is completely inconsistent with that. The Vulkar should be a Tier 2 because you have to craft it, but the Lex (Tier 1) is still better. And don't get me started on alert weapons.

 

I think either way they decide how to "Tier" weapons, they have A LOT of balancing ahead of them for it to actually make sense.

[CaptainohCaptain]

For a LOT of people (including myself) Tiers would be linked to how you obtain it. 

 

Tier 1: Starter Tier: Weapons you can purchase straight up with credits. 

 

Tier 2: Intermediate and Viable Tier: Weapons that you craft or can buy with Platinum.

 

Tier 3: Endgame Tier: Weapons that you HAVE to obtain through playing the game.

Actually, this tier system of yours is wrong. You can obtain Endgame weapon with plat (Because Endgame tier weapon is Clan weapon, not these "exclusives" everyone whinning about). What comes to Vulkar, it's the first sniper rifle you can get, so it shouldn't be in second tier. Yeah, nice argument about Lex, but what about Furis/Afuris? You can't get them for credits yet there is a reason why you can't meet it on the battlefield. It's a tier 1 weapon.

[CaptainohCaptain]

Also, we have no melee credit only. And you can't buy cronus, but it's barely makes it to the tier 2.

[AscendantWyvern]

Actually, this tier system of yours is wrong. You can obtain Endgame weapon with plat (Because Endgame tier weapon is Clan weapon, not these "exclusives" everyone whinning about). What comes to Vulkar, it's the first sniper rifle you can get, so it shouldn't be in second tier. Yeah, nice argument about Lex, but what about Furis/Afuris? You can't get them for credits yet there is a reason why you can't meet it on the battlefield. It's a tier 1 weapon.

With Clan weapons you need time, lots of it. That, and either lots of money, or lots of materials. You shouldn't just buy them straight up with platinum (unless you defecate currency)

 

But how do you define the Afuris? It can't be a Tier 1 because it's not the first machine pistol you can obtain in the game (because the Viper can be obtained in the same way) Does that mean both of them have to be crap? 

 

How would you define the Tiers? 

 

No matter how you define them, the balancing for it is COMPLETELY off the wall.

 

 

I would prefer weapons to be sidegrades...so that balancing is less about putting something in its caste, and more about making them all useful for their own purposes.

Edited September 10, 2013 by AscendantWyvern

[CaptainohCaptain]

How would you define the Tiers? 

I wouldn't! What for? 

Same for balance, I don't care and know many people who don't care. Catch them all and use what you like.