Jump to content

Has there been a discussion about the disconnect between the health values of enemies and players?


Tazrizen
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just a heads up, the thread title was not sarcastic. I'm just curious if there was a possible reason how come players have drastically less health than enemies and yet enemies have much lower damage output than players. It just seems wierd how I have to do 500k damage to this grineer heavy gunner while my warframe has less HP than a charger. Soon as someone is hit with a radproc on the squad, everyone panicks because that player is the most lethal mob on the tileset. Isn't that a bit strange? Also when it comes to gaining levels and progression, there's often a lack of feeling of progression. You get mods and other stuff sure, but that feels more like item collection than it does growing in power. 
 

Anywho, rant aside, how come we don't have varying levels of HP when it comes to warframes? 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If our health and damage values relative to enemies were normalized with each other then we'd be playing a very different game than we are currently. Warframe would either be at ridiculous levels of difficulty and/or be slowed to a painstaking crawl.

Instead enemies are made just threatening enough that you can easily die if you allow yourself to while they're also tanky enough that we need to actually try to kill them. At least that seems to be the purpose before you reach the point of having the appropriate gear to trivialize content, if you allow yourself to use it.

As far as the looting aspect goes I see it as each resource is their own progress bar. All resources are progress to building more items, Endo is progress towards ranking mods, Affinity towards more capacity/mastery, and Credits towards everything. Once you've exhausted all current uses for a resource you're simply done with that progression and all of it in some way progresses your overall "power".

Edited by trst
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Tazrizen said:

I'm just curious if there was a possible reason how come players have drastically less health than enemies and yet enemies have much lower damage output than players.

I have brought up this issue a few times and advocate in favor of reducing number bloat in the game, more specifically to reduca existing elta between damage output and durability. This would also open room for new abilities based on retaliation mechanic - Unairu or Trinity's Link are some examples.

3 hours ago, trst said:

If our health and damage values relative to enemies were normalized with each other then we'd be playing a very different game than we are currently. Warframe would either be at ridiculous levels of difficulty and/or be slowed to a painstaking crawl.

I disagree. It will remain the same game, I dare to say it will be even better. If our damage output is 1k, not 100k, enemies can also have 100 times lower health values. As they still deal the same damage, and our health would not be changed player survivability would remain the same.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's the reason why some people are suggesting a stat squish where we reduce the variation between an unmodded, starting weapon and a high mastery rank weapon with Serration and Split Chamber equipped. The main reason why the gap exist is because our weapons are simply scaling by such a large factor that the enemies have to have just as much of a multiplier or more to keep up. This is really only made worse with power creeping and the cries for "end-game content" with no clear definition of what it means, resulting in enemies just scaling higher and higher in levels in order to create a difference between a level 50 Lancer and a level 100 Lancer.

If only we could cut down that variance, we can apply a similar reduction to the scaling mechanic. This would pave a way to make the balancing and scaling of later missions a lot less of a nightmare where top DPS weapons are massively ahead and anything that isn't optimal struggling with even the common enemies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, trst said:

If our health and damage values relative to enemies were normalized with each other then we'd be playing a very different game than we are currently. Warframe would either be at ridiculous levels of difficulty and/or be slowed to a painstaking crawl.

People will quit if THEY didn't have the swag to brag about.

You BUFF players to make them FEEL better playing, not nerf them to the ground so they will leave. It's the "secret sauce" in player satisfaction and keeping them playing.

Or, you can do what Activision-Blizzard does and try to make a game "look good" for streaming eSports, while their stocks drop 50% as 50,000,000 of their players across their catalogue of games leave the game ... because the FUN left the game.

People play video games for FUN, not try to be NFL/NBA all-stars (which fuel the botting/cheating/exploiting behaviors to "win"), because they're NOT pros. They want to hang out and kill bullet sponges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

It's the reason why some people are suggesting a stat squish where we reduce the variation between an unmodded, starting weapon and a high mastery rank weapon with Serration and Split Chamber equipped. The main reason why the gap exist is because our weapons are simply scaling by such a large factor that the enemies have to have just as much of a multiplier or more to keep up. This is really only made worse with power creeping and the cries for "end-game content" with no clear definition of what it means, resulting in enemies just scaling higher and higher in levels in order to create a difference between a level 50 Lancer and a level 100 Lancer.

If only we could cut down that variance, we can apply a similar reduction to the scaling mechanic. This would pave a way to make the balancing and scaling of later missions a lot less of a nightmare where top DPS weapons are massively ahead and anything that isn't optimal struggling with even the common enemies.

Another factor that adds to this is that we fight the same enemies at level 15 and 100. So if DE wants to change the highest level of play, they have no choice but to affect the lower levels as well. Consider the OV enemy balancing a while back. This further exacerbates the issues here. The difference between a level 100 butcher and level 100 elite lancer is far larger than a level 15 butcher and level 15 elite lancer - but that can't be adjusted because it'll mess with people struggling with level 15.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, trst said:

If our health and damage values relative to enemies were normalized with each other then we'd be playing a very different game than we are currently. Warframe would either be at ridiculous levels of difficulty and/or be slowed to a painstaking crawl.

Instead enemies are made just threatening enough that you can easily die if you allow yourself to while they're also tanky enough that we need to actually try to kill them. At least that seems to be the purpose before you reach the point of having the appropriate gear to trivialize content, if you allow yourself to use it.

As far as the looting aspect goes I see it as each resource is their own progress bar. All resources are progress to building more items, Endo is progress towards ranking mods, Affinity towards more capacity/mastery, and Credits towards everything. Once you've exhausted all current uses for a resource you're simply done with that progression and all of it in some way progresses your overall "power".

Thank you for stating what should be pretty obvious. 

 

They outnumber us so we must be able to kill them faster, so we do more damage than they do. 

We do more damage than they do, so they must have more health. 

Balance. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 минуты назад, Loza03 сказал:

Another factor that adds to this is that we fight the same enemies at level 15 and 100. So if DE wants to change the highest level of play, they have no choice but to affect the lower levels as well. Consider the OV enemy balancing a while back. This further exacerbates the issues here. The difference between a level 100 butcher and level 100 elite lancer is far larger than a level 15 butcher and level 15 elite lancer - but that can't be adjusted because it'll mess with people struggling with level 15.

The difference between lvl 100 butcher and lvl 100 elite lancer is higher than their lvl 15 brothers proportionally. The same as player's difference is increased proportionally along the leveling/modding progression.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with that difference you've mentioned. For a new player who is at level 15 stage of progression, the difference between those enemies is the same as the difference between lvl 100 enemies for a player who is at 100 level stage. It is absolutely normal scenario.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Ermiq said:

The difference between lvl 100 butcher and lvl 100 elite lancer is higher than their lvl 15 brothers proportionally. The same as player's difference is increased proportionally along the leveling/modding progression.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with that difference you've mentioned. For a new player who is at level 15 stage of progression, the difference between those enemies is the same as the difference between lvl 100 enemies for a player who is at 100 level stage. It is absolutely normal scenario.

Ok, poor example.

But still, if DE wants to adjust the difficulty of enemies at the top level of play, they can't do so without messing up level 15.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Thank you for stating what should be pretty obvious. 

 

They outnumber us so we must be able to kill them faster, so we do more damage than they do. 

We do more damage than they do, so they must have more health. 

Balance. 

Ok, but this doesn't necessarily require that enemies have hundreds of thousands of hit points and we do tens of thousands of HP worth of damage. Surely we can cut those numbers down to be able to make balancing less of a precarious endeavour? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Ok, poor example.

But still, if DE wants to adjust the difficulty of enemies at the top level of play, they can't do so without messing up level 15.

Ok, but this doesn't necessarily require that enemies have hundreds of thousands of hit points and we do tens of thousands of HP worth of damage. Surely we can cut those numbers down to be able to make balancing less of a precarious endeavour? 

Which is why stat squishing was the idea suggested rather than tweaking with the stats based on the results on either end. The concept is that if we reduce the rate our weapon grows between base damage and Serration/Split Chamber, we would be able to cut the scaling formula in proportion to achieve the same result on both ends of the comparison. This has little change on both edges while making the transition in-between a lot less extreme where you have a fully modded pellet gun mowing through level 10 enemies instantly and half-modded weapons being absolutely useless against enemies at level 50.

Also, technically, the scaling favors larger base numbers resulting in heavy units becoming massive runaway trains. A level 15 Butcher and a level 15 Elite Lancer have an effective HP of 202 and 250 respectively. Because numbers are scaled exponentially and on two fronts with Health and Armor, this means that the larger base will always scale faster than the lower base. At level 100, a Butcher only has 9,440EHP while the Elite Lancer has scaled to 157,471EHP. The difference between them is 124% on level 15 and 1668% on level 100. A stat squish would actually help to curb this excessive exponential growth. It's the reason why Butchers at level 150 are small threats while Heavy Gunners are nigh impossible to kill with most weapons.

Towards OP's intent, it's probably the only step possible without a massive overhaul on damage, health and scaling. 19,000 health is still a rather ridiculous number but it is better than 38,000 for a level 100 Heavy Gunner. Instead of your Ogris doing say, 40,000 damage, it would do 20,000 leaving little changes in actual combat. At least if you shot yourself with Cautious Shot now, you would only deal 2,000 damage to yourself. You'll probably still die but it's better than dying by an excess of 3,000 damage.

Edited by Flandyrll
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

It's the reason why some people are suggesting a stat squish where we reduce the variation between an unmodded, starting weapon and a high mastery rank weapon with Serration and Split Chamber equipped. The main reason why the gap exist is because our weapons are simply scaling by such a large factor that the enemies have to have just as much of a multiplier or more to keep up. This is really only made worse with power creeping and the cries for "end-game content" with no clear definition of what it means, resulting in enemies just scaling higher and higher in levels in order to create a difference between a level 50 Lancer and a level 100 Lancer.

If only we could cut down that variance, we can apply a similar reduction to the scaling mechanic. This would pave a way to make the balancing and scaling of later missions a lot less of a nightmare where top DPS weapons are massively ahead and anything that isn't optimal struggling with even the common enemies.

This one gets it

As long as we have this insane amount of power creep, keeping at least the illusion of difficulty will be, well, difficult.

Hence armor and shield scaling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

Also, technically, the scaling favors larger base numbers resulting in heavy units becoming massive runaway trains. A level 15 Butcher and a level 15 Elite Lancer have an effective HP of 202 and 250 respectively. Because numbers are scaled exponentially and on two fronts with Health and Armor, this means that the larger base will always scale faster than the lower base. At level 100, a Butcher only has 9,440EHP while the Elite Lancer has scaled to 157,471EHP. The difference between them is 124% on level 15 and 1668% on level 100. A stat squish would actually help to curb this excessive exponential growth. It's the reason why Butchers at level 150 are small threats 

They have a system for this growth. They phase out certain enemies at specific lvls and replace them with more appropriate base stat enemies.

Normal Butcher's stop at lvl 15 (for the most part). And swap to flameblades or powerfists or scorpions. The tool they use is variants. Though some, like the tile based variants of the butcher, may have not been properly boosted or left to spawn past their useful level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Ok, but this doesn't necessarily require that enemies have hundreds of thousands of hit points and we do tens of thousands of HP worth of damage. Surely we can cut those numbers down to be able to make balancing less of a precarious endeavour? 

Then the game is dead. Players LOVE their bullet sponges. Why are bosses with BILLIONS of health? Because players love their big number DPS/HPS. Compensation for having 4,000,000 crit hits, is bosses with BILLIONS of health so they're not one-shotted in current content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 часа назад, Kevyne_Kicklighter сказал:

Then the game is dead. Players LOVE their bullet sponges. Why are bosses with BILLIONS of health? Because players love their big number DPS/HPS. Compensation for having 4,000,000 crit hits, is bosses with BILLIONS of health so they're not one-shotted in current content.

Actually, it doesn't work like that.

See, any MMORPG and other MMORPG-like game comes to this "BILLIONS" sooner or later (unless they use scaling, e.g., Elder Scrolls Online). And there's no purpose to "make players happy with billions dps!", not at all. The truth is, it's just a side effect of unlimited progression systems where the game is getting updates with more levels, stronger enemies, etc. The longer the game exists, the more numbers it gets.

For example, there's a MMORPG called Allods Online. At the start the game had a very little numbers on max level 25 back then, like 120 health points, average dps was like 200-300. Later the game has got thousands. When the game was 8 years old, there were millions. It was OK to have 1.5 millions health points and deal 3 millions dps at level 70. But it's not like devs have designed the game that way, actually. They just didn't know the game is going to live THAT long (just like DE have thought about Warframe, by the way).

Not long ago they realized they have to do something, and they made some adjustments, and now at max level 90 you have 700-800 health points and 1.500-2000 dps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Ermiq said:

Actually, it doesn't work like that.See, any MMORPG and other MMORPG-like game comes to this "BILLIONS" sooner or later (unless they use scaling, e.g., Elder Scrolls Online). And there's no purpose to "make players happy with billions dps!", not at all. The truth is, it's just a side effect of unlimited progression systems where the game is getting updates with more levels, stronger enemies, etc. The longer the game exists, the more numbers it gets.

WoW rescales the numbers now each expansion. Scaling in itself doesn't make players happier. Blizzard added auto-scaling mobs late into Legion, but didn't take in consideration what Bethesda did with Oblivion and the #1 mod the game had then -- to turn OFF auto-scaling of mobs. Bethesda already had auto-scaling all the way back then, so it will do it for ESO. It doesn't mean the people like it -- and judging by the mods and the popularity of that mod to turn off auto-scaling in the day -- it's not a popular feature.

Why? This is a cherished "prize" when you reach "end-game". The lower level mobs SHOULD be easy kills, as they're not challenging. Challenging content is at "end-game".

EQ2_Say_No_To_Gray_Aggro.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Then the game is dead. Players LOVE their bullet sponges. Why are bosses with BILLIONS of health? Because players love their big number DPS/HPS. Compensation for having 4,000,000 crit hits, is bosses with BILLIONS of health so they're not one-shotted in current content.

That's not entirely true. Players don't love bullet sponges, players love flow. Flow is a mental state that requires a number of conditions to be met, one of which being feedback of performance. The huge numbers on the weapons are pretty much just a cheap thrill when looking at the numbers, and the huge numbers on the bosses is so you don't oneshot it, but instead feel like an epic battle is taking place since you're not oneshotting it or causing visibly massive damage, whilst still seeming to be able to dealing good damage. They're not necessary parts of it though - as long as the relative standards are set, it can honestly be any number. Consider that Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door is often looked at as one of greats of the RPG genre but even at the final boss you only deal damage in the range of 4's and 5's. Yet, still, considered a great game. The numbers aren't a requirement, the feedback of progress, yet not too fast, is.

For another example, of the opposite, the Gravios from Monster Hunter is a complete damage sponge, but due to the absence of any real feedback of how much damage is being done it feels like an absolute slog to fight. The fact it's a damage sponge actually hurts the fight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...