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I dont want more STUFF. I need SCALING content.


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21 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

Dear Bitesizers
your solution of "artificial Difficulty" is NOT only Stupid but adding to the already LARGE amounts of difficulty artificial difficulty that this game is plagues with.
we are ALREADY gimped in this game because of the Bitesize community, that is overly #*!%ing selfish, consists of casual players who Object to anything that might take some form of skill to do. and ANY #*!%ING TIME! that a mention of something for endgame\endurance community has been brought up, you all push back like a bunch of selfish jerks.
we look for difficult content and would like a bit of compensation for our time. you piss off as soon as the bell rings. out the door thru the gate and into the sunset. YET you believe we should be only be awarded the same crap as you. this is like being a part time worker wanting only 3 5hr shifts  a week but getting paid the same as a 5 day 39hr week employee. 
IF you dont want to do the time, then dont, but you lot have been spoon fed and spoilt. yet the endurance community has been given very very few things from the Devs, Nidus being about the best thing we got. 

telling people who want a challenge and better rewards and actively seeking it out (in a game you have to love a whole lot to do this in) to artificially gimp them selves, do shorter runs and that we should not be given ANYTHING more than you is not only a complete $&*^ move but also divides a already dividing community. how about you lot already have been give the larges portion of the #*!%ing game, you have had every #*!%ing *@##$ an moan tended too... LIKE FORTUNA DIFFICULTY! That was you lot, NOT the endurance community. 

there are people saying "oh its because certain people bring certain frames to get to max level... " YEAH takes better part of 15 hrs to get there.. these people deserve a #*!%ing medal and a spot on the leader boards. they not only actively went to the extreme and done everything you couldn't, but had the patients to deal with the S#&$ rewards, go the mile and do something many people can't. 

any time scaling rewards comes up, bitesizers push back, there is always pushback becase a very #*!%ing select few people go to the extreme, and you dont want them to get more than you. 
if you ran a marathon and finished 50 minutes after 1st place, are you going to demand you get 1st prize ?. are you going to *@##$ moan and pushback because the skilled talented and people who put in the work can do more than you could ??. sit on that an think about it. if you are too ignorant to accept the people who do the long runs deserve more. than hope you watch lazy #*!%s at your work get paid more than you for less hrs. 

So, that's the thing you "end-gamer" want? Something to brag about? You think this is some sort of competition, where you "need" to feel superior to the "casul" players?

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I'm curious though...

So for the sake of discussion. Let's say DE gives a lvl 125+ Star Chart Mode the "OK"
They say they are developing it.

Now, how would those who feel this would scratch the itch they have desire the missions to work?
Let's say DE turns to the playerbase to decide the rewards. But like with Tennogen they give strict guidelines:
- Cannot create a severe split in the Playerbase.
- Cannot fully trivialize existing content.
- Cannot permanently upgrade/update a frame/companion/weapon (IE: Nothing that adds a new brand new Mod Slot, Augment Slot, Exilus Slot)

Option A:
If it's the EXACT same Star Chart as now but with higher level gameplay, Bullet Sponge Enemies (cause apparently no one wants this shooter to have enemies who die in 1 or 3 hits (like in all shooters...…..), & extremely hard hitting enemies.
What kind of rewards should each mission award?
Would it be the higher end spectrum of current Mods? Brand new Mods? Vaulted Relics? Prime Parts?

Option B:
The planets are the same, but all missions are brand new.
What kind of missions should they be? What kind of enemies do you wish to see?

What kind of rewards should each mission award?
Would it be the higher end spectrum of current Mods? Brand new Mods? Vaulted Relics? Prime Parts?

I'm curious as to just what "challenge" players want. Additionally, I'm curious as to what rewards they desire.

I'll be upfront. I keep seeing threads over wanting challenge, wanting a reason to use OP builds, wanting the game to be balls to wall beyond Dark Souls hard. Wanting to have to "work for rewards". Wanting enemies to be a serious threat & outclass players. etc...

Yet everytime DE responds, the content is devoured like a human in a horde of zombies in WWZ then called obsolete, useless, badly implemented, & unwanted.

Before ESO, folks said they wanted a challenging mode that would push their loadouts to the limits & eventually overtake them. Something they can't run endlessly but would really push them. Folks said they wanted challenge.
They cared little for rewards because they wanted to see how far they could push their "Endgame" limits as they had everything.
These same people were fine with trash rewards such as Lato Vandal, Braton Vandal, Peculiar Mods as they saw the upcoming ESO as a way to boast/gain bragging rights.
Many of this community also asked for the rewards to be something to work towards. IE: Not given easily. Which essentially translates to: "Make us grind for it."
- DE releases ESO.
Those same people rioted about having no good rewards for such content. They were mad they had to work so hard & that they couldn't go endlessly. They were mad about how low the drop rates were. That they had to keep playing the mode relentlessly to get the rewards...

Later on in the year the "Endgame" desiring playerbase wanted a brutally hard version of Alerts. It has been mentioned since before ESO.
"Teamwork needs to matter." / "Players should fear death & failure." / "Make us work to complete the mission. Make the mechanics stricter." /  "Make us coordinate when we use a Power Cell, etc." / "Make the enemies more challenging & unable to be killed easily by powers & meta builds." / "Don't hand the mode out. Players need to clear the Star Chart to prove they are worthy." / "Make us work for our rewards." <---(Make us Grind...)

DE adds Arbitrations. All the above statements make players hate the mode. Rewards were decent to good. But once acquired players stopped playing it.
"Why work so hard for rewards I already have?" "Rewards aren't worth the effort."

So...yeah...what does the "endgame" desiring playerbase desire?
What rewards could possibly be given to you that would please you day after day?

It can't be Mods. Because once you have 1 or 3 copies you're set. Unless you farm them to sell for plat.
It can't be Rivens. Players seem to be rolling in them & are frustrated with their chaotic mechanics.
It can't be Weapons. Once you have them well...you have them.
It can't be Cosmetics. Because they aren't worth the effort such a hard mode would demand, also...once you have them...you have them.
It can't be resources. They are everywhere.
It can't be standing. Because once you've bought the vendor out of house & home the standing becomes useless.
It can't be Kuva because why work so hard for Kuva when it's acquirable via easier & quicker means.

So what reward could possibly stand the test of time, remain relevant, remain desirable, & be worth the effort?

Because the truth is...
No one wants to so hard/challenging content just for fun. Well...not anymore. Now everything needs to have a reward.

...Beginning to feel like I'm the only one who plays to just have an absolute blast & for a good time...

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12 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

So, that's the thing you "end-gamer" want? Something to brag about? You think this is some sort of competition, where you "need" to feel superior to the "casul" players?

it isn't something to brag about, but how would you feel only ever getting earth level (lvl1-10) rewards and loot for sorties ?
this would benefit any and everyone. you stay in for 1hr and mobs go from lvl 40 - 100 you Should be getting more loot, better rewards. not lvl 40 stuff.
something to say "Hey thanks for playing. so we aren't undercutting you for your time have something worth of your effort ?"  we are asking for something that would POSITIVELY affect everyone. you could even join in get a little more, need some mats to build something you ran out of, run 20 minutes longer get more and better rewards. 
after 1hr you shouldn't be getting Serration as a reward, you should be getting better relics. the loot dropped from enemys should be scaling appropriately, its a positive change we want.
also a mission that starts off at a higher level isn't a bad thing either. we would like higher level mobs, something more challenging. anyone is aloud to go there, it wouldn't be locked behind a wall, it would be open to all.

But hey if you want to talk about bragging rights, how about all the people who Brag about thier 5K+ rivens on their "OP" Guns that never go past 20 minutes ? 
We already HAVE bragging rights, we stay in the mission longer than most. you can brag about your 7 k rubico riven and 1 shot everything, but we cant brag about a long survival ?? 

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9 hours ago, KosmicKerman said:

Here's one of the major reasons this will never happen. You want scaling difficulty with scaling rewards. Rewards are the sticking point. If all it took was scaling difficulty that mode would have existed a long time ago. But DE knows that warframe players are min-maxers and won't play harder content if they can get the same rewards for less effort. So the problem is what players are really asking for in these type of threads is SCALING REWARDS with scaling difficulty and DE is not interested in providing this in a free-to-play game.

This is exactly it. 

They do steadily add more content that scales from a harder point. The three Toroid locations in Orb Vallis being the latest; go in at bounty 5,  those guys can get crazy real quick.

What you want is rewards that scale at the same speed, they can't do that in a F2P game. As you point out you have everything, so what is it you want? A riven or 4000 Kuva per 5 waves/minutes? Not gonna happen (thank god)

Cosmetics also wouldn't work, couple of weeks and your have them all and be back here complaining. 

Take a break, games aren't infinite. 

 

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46 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

this would benefit any and everyone.

This is not true. Despite what Life of Rio will have you believe.

46 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

you stay in for 1hr and mobs go from lvl 40 - 100 you Should be getting more loot, better rewards. not lvl 40 stuff.

This is partially correct. Higher level enemies/content should have better drop tables.

 

48 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

something to say "Hey thanks for playing. so we aren't undercutting you for your time have something worth of your effort ?"  we are asking for something that would POSITIVELY affect everyone. you could even join in get a little more, need some mats to build something you ran out of, run 20 minutes longer get more and better rewards. 
after 1hr you shouldn't be getting Serration as a reward, you should be getting better relics. the loot dropped from enemys should be scaling appropriately, its a positive change we want.

The reason Serration will sometimes be a reward is because of RNG.
In RPGs there NEEDS to be caps & specific drop tables. If the loot just got better the longer players stayed then players who want specific loot would be forced to play for an extremely unhealthy amount of time.
Why? Because DE would then need to balance the drop tables around Endurance runners. If they did not balance the drop tables & the drops did get better every 5 minutes/5 waves/ 2 or 3 extractors then the Endurance community would literally own everything possible, in massive quantities & they would rule the Trade Market with an iron fist.
So DE would actually have to lower the drop rates for "good stuff" so that it wouldn't be raining like candy once players hit 2 hours. Basically the game would need to be tailored around long runs which the majority of the playerbase does not have the time and/or patience for.

For example...I was helping a friend new to the game farm Mods last week. (Serration ironically, and some newbie mods.)
Going by the Endurance Community suggestions we'd have to endure the mission for about 2 or 3 hours then thanks to "scaling rewards" we would have acquired the entire base loot table of the mission. But now we'd have also reached, collected all of, & surpassed all of the Tier 2 Loot Table and be entering the Tier 3 table.
He'd have everything he would have needed & then some. So now what does he have to hunt for as he progresses? What purpose does the rest of the game outside of endless missions serve? Excluding the mission specific drops he'd have it all.

So after we would finish that mission. What does he have to aim for?
Why bother ever playing regular missions when all a player needs to do is get into a good team & run 1 endless type mission for a few hours?
 

48 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

it wouldn't be locked behind a wall, it would be open to all.

This is true in theory. Yes, everyone would have access to the loot. In fact we all already do. The distribution is just random.
But if we adhere to the Endurance mindset then...players have no choice but to dedicate an extreme amount of time to the mission.
This is where things get dicey as not every player wants to play the game like a job.

I strongly dislike Rio's derogatory name for players how don't adhere to his whims/playstyle. This so-called "Bite-Sized Community"
He's essentially belittling regular players and those clearing the Star Chart (why is he playing a public game if he wants to stay in mission for hours? Why not recruit like minded players?) because they just want to clear the mission, don't have the time, or are too weak/are at their limit (mods, level, etc) to stay any longer.

For example. I helped my friend farm mods on Everest, Earth. I frequently farm that mission for Cryotic. I usually run it for about 2000 Cryo sometimes 3000 when Solo.
Him being a new player, he was at his limit after 20 minutes & had begun to get nervous after around 15minutes (I believe we were at 800cryo) as his weapons were already starting to weaken. So he's considered Bite-Sized by Rio's ideals. Now had he died all 4 times. He's now hostage to me until I choose to extract or he loses all his loot. That is not accessible or fair to him. (We extracted at 1000 Cryo as he was getting one & two shot by enemies at that point. Just an FYI.)

Another example is Derelict: Survival. I farm this for Mutagen Samples (for that damned Hema).
I typically (if Farming) stay for 2hours minimum. I often do it Solo because the last time I went with friends they got bored. After 1hr the mission was boring to them, we were in no danger of death but I had 1 guy get disconnected (costing us his valuable Mutagen), 1 guy literally fell asleep, after we hit 3hrs I (yes me) found myself slashing at walls, dropping my head, struggling to keep my eyes open. As soon as we hit 4hrs we revived our sleeping friend after screaming into the mic to wake him, then extracted.
After that 1 mission all 3 of my friends took a break from Warframe. The loot was great but they said it wasn't fun, it was boring, and right now only 1 of them has returned to try out Fortuna. The other 2 were grinded out & to quote one of them from our text messages:
"I dunno. I just don't want to log in. No offense man, but when I look at the launcher I get the same feeling I get when I'm driving to work. Just not fun. You do you man."

We as a team wanted to unlock Hema, so we all agreed to come, but I blame myself for letting it turn into an endurance run. Should have just left at 3omins or 1hr. Then done something fun like Eidolon hunt.

I mention this because we have to consider the repercussions of making long runs the lucrative option. That means, a 3hr run would eventually become the norm.
But for an extreme portion of this playerbase that simply isn't acceptable.

Why would 3hrs (just an example) be the norm? Because if it wasn't then the sheer amount of loot from any run exceeding an hour would be insane.
let's say the rewards did scale & the drop table %s aren't adjusted with endurance runs in mind.
After 1hr I could have gotten around 300 or 400 mutagen; as my team was a well balanced farming team (Nekros x2, Hydroid, Ivara, all with Smeeta Kavats), by the time we hit 2 hours is rewards were racking/scaling up in quantity & quality we'd all have over 1500 Mutagen (arguably) & who knows how many high tier relics, mods, & etc.

Kuva Survival runs could then reach the point where a team could make literal Millions of Kuva in 1 run. Which would trivialize Riven Rerolling at that point.

So in the end. It would hurt the game because DE would have no choice but to alter drop tables to account for the scaling rewards.
On the flip side, as you said "why get a serration?" well if DE has the loot phase out then players would still leave before the endurance run could get too far in because once their loot table (whatever they are hunting) has phased out & now the drops are high tier relics/weapons/whatever well, they have no reason to remain in mission.
If DE was allow player to pick their rewards then no mission would go beyond 5mins or 5 waves.

I feel for the endurance community as I know they feel neglected but they have to come to understand that the balance in this game is fickle. Rewards are random for a reason, the drop cycle is there for a reason. Essentially it's because random = fair game for all. No favoritism.

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I'm sorry, but this has become a game for children.

The sorties I do only independently of the mission. It is very easy! And I only play with Warframes that I like, Oberon, Limbo, Atlas, Inaros, Volt and even Nova.

The game goes down basically because of the difficulty. This is the Arbitrary missions. But ...... why is not it done? First, because the missions last twice as long to receive a single reward, second the rewards of the vitus essences that you exchange, is very poor. I wish there had been at least 15. But no, it's a lot less.

And leave here a couple of ideas.



And we had a challenging content that was the raid of 8 people, but no. They took it. Reasons? I do not know

I tell you that every time the game is deteriorating more and more the difficulty.

Not only do they have to please new players, but also veteran players. If you do not please the old players, they tend to play less and even stop playing the game completely.

Because this game is gaining experience and will arrive in a moment is that person will have as much experience in the game, as in the hands of skill. And you will have to give him something that fits his level of difficulty or level of experience.

I understand that there are people who want a soft content to play, but they must understand that there are also people who want a more challenging challenge in itself.

Because you think the Wow gives better equipment and rewards. Basically for the difficulty. This is Normal mode and Heroic mode. When you have done many times the normal way, you will feel that you want to make a content more challenging or more difficult and that is the heroic way. But here is not happening,


There are infinities of ideas, which can be used to create challenging content. But not from these people who say to you: * change of voice * Why do not you create your own challenging content? I create it, but I do not enjoy it. Do you give me better rewards? No. Do you give me a medal for it? Neither. There you have the reason why not create my own challenging content.


I remember doing a Survival mission of more than 1 hour and a half alone with an Oberon. And do you know what I got? The same rewards as the previous ones. Thing that to me, I totally discourage, both when doing excavations, interceptions,  defense and even long-term survival.

 

And you know what could be done to put content to those people who like challenging content, so that they are motivated to do so. IF you do, defenses, survivals excavations and interceptions with a long duration. Obtain plans of improvements of "x" warframe, to improve them with a cost of resources. That a lot, we have an immense amount of resources, and you could spend them for that, basically. It's just an example, and as I said before there are millions of ideas to put content challenging.
 
That's why I'm not almost getting into the Warframe anymore, and I'm playing other games. Like Dark Soul / Nioh, Monster Hunter, and even play Counter Strike.

And just play, for the reputation and for the sorties and nothing else.
 
My sincere opinion.

Greetings to all

 

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The biggest issue I see with the concept of Scaling content is that it actually does not fix the problem. What lets us actually murderfy the enemies at those levels? Usually it's through the (ab)use of a combination of mechanics that quite literally break the game or outright ignore entire systems that support them. Case in point: Slash procs, stacking CP and stealth attack farm. For crying out loud, people have taken T4 void intercepts to where enemies are level 9999. Solo. All it took was Ivara, a dagger and one mod. 

None of those things are inherently bad, but DE simply has an absolutely horrible track about expecting the community's capability to push these things to their extreme. Thus causing unwanted results. It's ingenious in it's own way and thus I applaud the people who find these things. But I don't applaud these tactics becoming meta and thus the norm.

I would argue that for the "endgame" crowd, it should not be about giving us shortcuts to some arbitrary multiplier to enemy stats. But instead implementing more active handicaps and counters. Things that don't just imply but DEMANDS the use of our best gear in these ways but that these enemies have the capability to COUNTER US. You go invisible? There's an enemy that sees and marks you. You go slide-attack? There's an enemy that is specifically designed to not only be immune to slash procs, but who also causes you to stumble when hit by it. And so on. Enemies that demand the player to be aware of not only where the enemies are, but WHO they are. DEMANDING that we, the players, adjust our tactics to counter the counters. To have some basic levels of situational awareness. And to clarify, these counters and handicaps need to be active, not passive. Meaning not some mission wide modifiers, but something that the player can respond to and avoid, so enemies. Like Eximus units, but the concept evolved.

It's a pie in the sky, I admit. But as far as I see, the concept of simply upping the levels of enemies to create some sort of "challenge" is a flawed but a noble idea. Simply because in the end, it will have no lasting impact. 

And lastly, the NG+ idea, though neat, does not work in this setting. As primarily a Public random matchmaking game, creating the NG+ system will split the community. 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Because the truth is...
No one wants to so hard/challenging content just for fun. Well...not anymore. Now everything needs to have a reward.

...Beginning to feel like I'm the only one who plays to just have an absolute blast & for a good time...

Just so. Although I’ll say that over in BL2 land the community (still) does two things for no reward other than the fun of it:

speed kills of raid bosses w video posted and discussion.

they tinker with builds (like fast ball on Zer0, Axton etc or lady fist + orphan maker salvador)

-years- after dev stopped on the game.

BL2 has a casual trading system, so there is no trade market to camp in to flip items. BL2 has a handful of bosses and digi peak that have a reasonable set of challenges that people choose to solo run with each toon and their load outs either a speed or sweaty|funny combos. Since enemies a cleared from an area, camping isn’t a thing.

Run time is moslty not more than hour for any combo unless you want to macho Dexidius with grenades or something.

The distinction? A community that grew around those activities. The people that do them is a timy fraction of the total player base, but they have fun doing so.

And there is ROS (reaper of souls) that gets new gear seasonally and GRIFTS. 

DE has been adding set items, but what has yet to appear (and might with orbs.. or not) are battles with mechanics that make use of them that are fun to do in their own right. That is hard with mono diet hoards or mindless sentients that stumble around (mostly) while you play target practice and only damage you as a side effect of being near them (its not like an angry mastodon or tiger)  as a concept of bite sized content. It is also hard with a monomanical “vets” voice.

It is essential that DE and the community both have imagination enough to have new kinds of fun. Here, in these forums, there is no discussion of fun builds that I have noticed, but that’s because there is no real element to the game you can hang off of -for- those builds. People go into a simulacrum and find max dps and that’s that. DE has no intent to try to build up this kind of ecosystem, either due to lack of interest or imagination, but the same can be said of the player base.

 

Edited by (PS4)teacup775
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What do you mean by scaling..  There use to be scaling resources, there are videos on YouTube of players walking out of games with several hundred rare resources in just a couple of hours. 

Some resources such as Kuva definitely are up for discussion it's relatively endlessly needed for those that love rivens. 

As needed as Endo is, it does end. And as far as meta is concerned much sooner than the entire mod selection currently available. 

I'm all for this within reason. 

 

If by scaling we are saying aabc rotation gets changed to ddef or something after the enemies level reach a certain point, offering new resources, mods, weapons. 

I'm all for this, but our current power creep is already an issue. 

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6 hours ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Just so. Although I’ll say that over in BL2 land the community (still) does two things for no reward other than the fun of it:

speed kills of raid bosses w video posted and discussion.

they tinker with builds (like fast ball on Zer0, Axton etc or lady fist + orphan maker salvador)

-years- after dev stopped on the game.

BL2 has a casual trading system, so there is no trade market to camp in to flip items. BL2 has a handful of bosses and digi peak that have a reasonable set of challenges that people choose to solo run with each toon and their load outs either a speed or sweaty|funny combos. Since enemies a cleared from an area, camping isn’t a thing.

Run time is moslty not more than hour for any combo unless you want to macho Dexidius with grenades or something.

The distinction? A community that grew around those activities. The people that do them is a timy fraction of the total player base, but they have fun doing so.

And there is ROS (reaper of souls) that gets new gear seasonally and GRIFTS. 

DE has been adding set items, but what has yet to appear (and might with orbs.. or not) are battles with mechanics that make use of them that are fun to do in their own right. That is hard with mono diet hoards or mindless sentients that stumble around (mostly) while you play target practice and only damage you as a side effect of being near them (its not like an angry mastodon or tiger)  as a concept of bite sized content. It is also hard with a monomanical “vets” voice.

It is essential that DE and the community both have imagination enough to have new kinds of fun. Here, in these forums, there is no discussion of fun builds that I have noticed, but that’s because there is no real element to the game you can hang off of -for- those builds. People go into a simulacrum and find max dps and that’s that. DE has no intent to try to build up this kind of ecosystem, either due to lack of interest or imagination, but the same can be said of the player base.

 

that is why AAA games are better, they challenge their players. Dont expect that here pls

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On 2018-12-14 at 4:15 PM, Ikyr0 said:

I will not run more Mot, no sir. it takes too long, enemies are the same, and rewards are pitiful.

I just got two Defense Arbies in a row, so guess what I have to wait two hours to play, assuming the third will be a Survival/Excavation/Interception.

I can do one Kuva Flood, but that's only lvl 100 and it's too easy. 

^^ This is how games die. For retention purposes studios try to retain anyone. The result is there's a VERY LOUD "end-gamer" segment that will NEVER be satisfied as they already won the trophy.

What MMOs don't have? A GAME OVER screen, to tell them to move on, as they face BURN OUT.

The boredom is burn out.

What was fun years ago is now boring. Then they look at nostalgia to keep them happy, when gaming must change to keep up with Tech.

Look at what happened with Diablo recently. Blizzard actually made the right decision to enter the mobile gaming market (last great frontier for market expansion).

This is the FACE of this bored, never satisfied, embittered 10% of the gaming base...

 

You can pick any game and this happens. I just use Blizzard's games as an example because they have the largest MMORPG game base, and MMORPGs share the same player base. When they make an infuriating game design mistake MILLIONS of players suffer.

But the "old timers" can also make horrible decisions too, like kneecapping studios who HAVE to progress as Tech (and society) evolves around it.

Warframe is a niche game. It has what the OTHER games don't have. I like to see studios, in their desperation to retain anyone, to not harbor that "end-game" cancer in yet another game. I already experience that mess in WoW. I play OTHER games to get away from that crap. Where the adventure is newer, fresher and exciting not more of the end-game toxicity that ruins games, as the vultures pick them clean of EVERY little quirk, as the "end-gamers" have done everything already, and have nothing else to focus on.

Games are addicting and designed to BE addicting. Some players NEED that "Game Over" screen to remind them that it's okay to leave. The game will be there when they return again.

Studios, make the game. It'll either float or not (you will notice what mistakes you made when people leave by the millions in WoW or thousands in niche games). But don't be WoW. Learn from the mistakes Blizzard has made, and not repeat them. DE, you did some things perfectly -- customization of toons are essential in MMOs. The Liset as your "hall" for all your trophies, included -- that's the place for nostalgia. That 10% who whines, were just like the raiders in EverQuest: they cared less of the adventure or FUN things, just the loot. Then a new shiny game came THAT WAS EASIER TO PLAY, and EQ lost but their 10%.

Studios don't even know HOW to let players go when they do burn out, either. They really, really, really want players to stay, but only 10% of the player base gets to be "end-gamers", and ALL they do is crap on the very game they say they love. They got it all and bored.

SEE??????

Bellular is the only "neutral" big time WoW streamer left  (oh, Blizzard really did screw up with BfA! I played for 3 weeks and Blizzard can't pay me to return. Raid gear for leveling. No, not suffering for 6 months of trying to win a lotery that makes my intellect plate gear extremely rare drops, again),

So when studios retain that 10% they can alienate the other 90% with their negativity -- worst PR for a company is bitter veterans, who tell their friends and their friends tell others. THEY KEEP new players joining, by crapping on the game. Pick your prejudice and hate it's been said and advertized.

Has anyone read the Warframe Steam reviews from November, 2018 and the BIG negative review warning? It's needed especially of players making reviews with but 40 minutes in the game in packs.

Some gaming "traditions" -- like player retention of burned out players -- just needs to die and REMAIN buried (and no zombie returns, please!!!)...

(And tell me that the surveying apparatus looks like a Moa on stilts??? lololol).

 

Edited by Kevyne_Kicklighter
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On 2018-12-15 at 5:20 AM, vid23 said:

why you want scaling reward when you alredy got everything?

why you dont just.. make the game harder yourself? like dont use powerful weapons/mods and there is your problem solved

I understand what you're saying but their needs to be a challenge for all the powerful mods and weapons we get, separate from gimmicky content(like arbitrations, not saying it's bad though). Just straight up hard enemies without requiring hours of play, to test the best build we could make.

 

And tbh if it rewards a mere badge or syandana or any thing not game changing i'd be fine with that.

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8 hours ago, BeeWhyOhBee said:

that is why AAA games are better, they challenge their players. Dont expect that here pls

I like warframe much more than Destiny or Divsion. I played both from first drop. Destiny was a huge disappointment, but the history of is still birth as good content worthy of its price is well documented. Divsion was ok but ran its course.

As a result, I dont pre order. I will wait for them to drop. BL3, Anthem, the lot. AAA titles mostly bomb these days and it seems like a disease has spread thru much of the industry. The smell of block buster money and penny pinchers looking to milk players completely.

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21 hours ago, ArkThanatos said:

-Le Snip-

I find these guys funny, mainly because they are't the problem. Those who enjoy "bite sized" content isn't the issue because they're never at that level of play, it's always the veterans and try hards who are. For the simple fact when DE throws them a challenge they "REEE" hard because thier power creep...oh sorry fantasy has been ruined.

AKA: Those wanting the game to be harder don't really want it to be harder.

Also DE ought to punish LifeOf"Expletive" due to his documented toxicity towards his fellow tenno.

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17 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

So for the sake of discussion. Let's say DE gives a lvl 125+ Star Chart Mode the "OK"

Lvl 125 is still too low for regular mission enemies (maybe fortuna, rathuum, or index enemies would be fine at that level as some of them are not affected by crowd control abilities but even then, they still wouldn't hit hard enough). Enemies at 125 still struggle to damage tanky frames and with the sanguine eximus from new loka every frame can become tanky and ignore status effects. So, I'd say start them at level 200 at least. For context as to this number, enemies start being a problem to a defence cryopod covered by the eximus aura past wave 80 on defence. They are only level 300 by wave 80, and only start being a problem after that because of the rapid scaling that follows after wave 80. Also, weapons start struggling around this point as well without some serious additional damage buff or enemy debuff from frame powers. So, 200 is a good starting point.

17 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Let's say DE turns to the playerbase to decide the rewards. But like with Tennogen they give strict guidelines:
- Cannot create a severe split in the Playerbase.
- Cannot fully trivialize existing content.
- Cannot permanently upgrade/update a frame/companion/weapon (IE: Nothing that adds a new brand new Mod Slot, Augment Slot, Exilus Slot)

Option A:
If it's the EXACT same Star Chart as now but with higher level gameplay, Bullet Sponge Enemies (cause apparently no one wants this shooter to have enemies who die in 1 or 3 hits (like in all shooters...…..), & extremely hard hitting enemies.
What kind of rewards should each mission award?
Would it be the higher end spectrum of current Mods? Brand new Mods? Vaulted Relics? Prime Parts?

Rewards don't need to be anything too fancy nor brand new. Just make these missions feel like an upgrade to the regular ones. For example, 50% bonus extra xp and resources from enemies in this missions, and maybe no bronze mods? For fissures, how about 2% increased chance to the rare part on an intact relic, 4% increased on exceptional, 6% on flawless, and 8% on radiant. That would be 18% for the rare part if you running radiant solo, and like 42% if you running 4 radiant of the same relic in a squad. Also, make traces rewarded be a percentage higher, I dunno.. 20% more? For kuva survival they could finally let the kuva reward scale. Very small increments, maybe 10 or 20 extra kuva per capsule until reaching a cap of 400 kuva per capsule. The whole point is to give the illusion that we are playing the VIP starchart.

And a quick idea for endless missions.

Force extraction at 1h of survival, 60 waves of defense, 20 waves of interception, and 3000 cryotic in excavation. Why? Because the starting level would be 200 and enemies would scale very fast capping maybe at level 2000. Endurance runners wouldn't have to pass the 1h test of patience of regular endless missions and would instead get to business from the very start. Also, level 2000 is probably more than enough to test how durable you are. But hey, this is all fantasy I'm talking about here so maybe those levels could be stretched even further.

The above, of course, accompanied by improved leaderboards that will show more than one parameter indicating the efficiency of the run as well as the endurance. For example, take survival. If two teams reach the 1h mark then how would the higher placement be decided? Well, another parameter could be least number of life support activated, and then, if that still can't decide which team gets 1st placement, whichever team got the most kills wins. So in order of parameter importance:

Survivals: time of the run (capping at 1h) > capsules activated > number of kills.

For defence: number of waves reached (capping at 60) > final damage to cryopod > speed of the run

Interception: number of waves reached (capping at 20) > number of consoles captured by enemies > speed of the run

Excavation: amount of cryo extracted (capped at 3000) > number of excavators destroyed > speed of the run

Kuva survival: kuva extracted (within 1h) > capsules destroyed

This leaderboard system wouldn't work on the regular endless missions that we currently have as there is no limit to how long we can stay in those.

And finally, how about rewarding some random vaulted relic or a veiled riven (50/50 chance?) after completing a full hour of survival, 60 waves of defense, 3000 cryo extracted, etc? Remember these enemies would be around level 2000 by the end of the run and it would be a whole hour of gameplay too, so these rewards would be justified.

19 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Option B:
The planets are the same, but all missions are brand new.
What kind of missions should they be? What kind of enemies do you wish to see?

If DE keeps adding new missions and game modes we'll never get an improvement of the old content, or at the very least it will take longer for them to work on improving old content. IMO, resources have been wasted developing Lunaro and Framefighter. Conclave is all the minigame that we needed, pls no more. At least the Stalker mode that seems to be on the way is part of the core gameplay experience of the game, as in you control pretty much a warframe, and you shoot and jump around like in the main game.

So if anything, any new additions to enemy type or AI should be integrated to the regular content: exterminate, capture, survival, defence, etc.

For example, integrating rathuum, index, plains, and orb vallis enemies, as well as event enemies to regular missions would be much appreciated. They could take advantage of the lockdown alarm system to trigger this type of enemy spawn. Or add mini objectives to this missions that involves interacting with these types of enemies.

I would love to see tho an enemy added to missions that would spawn under specific circumstances that would require you to escape it, it could not be killable. Pretty much like the new Orb spider (as in it cannot be killed, yet), but maybe smaller that could fit in regular missions and that could keep up with parkour, also very scary looking and deadly. Pretty much the equivalent of the assassins but for vet players in the VIP starchart? Maybe a sentient-like being. All the fun from this interaction should come from how you decided to escape from it. Maybe you could slow it down by shooting specific spots on it's body or just say screw it and equip all parkour and speed mods to out-speed it. No clue how this could even be implemented but it looks pretty cool in my mind.

19 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

I'll be upfront. I keep seeing threads over wanting challenge, wanting a reason to use OP builds, wanting the game to be balls to wall beyond Dark Souls hard. Wanting to have to "work for rewards". Wanting enemies to be a serious threat & outclass players. etc...

Yet everytime DE responds, the content is devoured like a human in a horde of zombies in WWZ then called obsolete, useless, badly implemented, & unwanted.

Maybe DE needs to do a better job?

19 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Before ESO, folks said they wanted a challenging mode that would push their loadouts to the limits & eventually overtake them. Something they can't run endlessly but would really push them. Folks said they wanted challenge.
They cared little for rewards because they wanted to see how far they could push their "Endgame" limits as they had everything.
These same people were fine with trash rewards such as Lato Vandal, Braton Vandal, Peculiar Mods as they saw the upcoming ESO as a way to boast/gain bragging rights.
Many of this community also asked for the rewards to be something to work towards. IE: Not given easily. Which essentially translates to: "Make us grind for it."
- DE releases ESO.
Those same people rioted about having no good rewards for such content. They were mad they had to work so hard & that they couldn't go endlessly. They were mad about how low the drop rates were. That they had to keep playing the mode relentlessly to get the rewards...

You have any data supporting that those same people rioted? Seems to me that some got what they wanted and stayed silent, others were indifferent, and others didn't get what they wanted hence the complaining. Didn't noticed much praising tho if at all, maybe it's another case of DE could do a better job?

Look, ESO was a good addition (at least the leaderboards there make more sense than in the rest of the game, precisely because we can't go forever) but is far from perfect. First, the peculiar mods are absolutely underwhelming, and that's an opinion of course, but think about how much use you get out of those. You actually become weaker if you trade a mod slot to equip them. And I'm not even bothered by them honestly, I just don't see the point.

And second, there's a major complain I have about it and it relates directly to the leaderboards (the only attractive aspect for me). Have you had a host migration there and noticed a change in the tilesets that spawn? Well, whenever you migrate the tilesets change and you get different tilesets than the regular ones assigned for that particular week. This makes it so that if you want to compete on the leaderboards you have to run the regular order of tilesets assigned to that particular week and then run it again forcing a host migration to see if the new order of tilesets is more favourable to your final score. This completely kills it for me. Too much unnecessary work. DE could just restart the score after a host migration but I don't think they are aware of that 'exploit', and of course not enough people care about leaderboards to set them straight so I guess there's no one complaining. I did complain on a feedback post but those go unnoticed, should have done it on bugs probably. There's also the issue of some players getting insane scores playing solo, but I don't know that exploit.

21 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Later on in the year the "Endgame" desiring playerbase wanted a brutally hard version of Alerts. It has been mentioned since before ESO.
"Teamwork needs to matter." / "Players should fear death & failure." / "Make us work to complete the mission. Make the mechanics stricter." /  "Make us coordinate when we use a Power Cell, etc." / "Make the enemies more challenging & unable to be killed easily by powers & meta builds." / "Don't hand the mode out. Players need to clear the Star Chart to prove they are worthy." / "Make us work for our rewards." <---(Make us Grind...)

DE adds Arbitrations. All the above statements make players hate the mode. Rewards were decent to good. But once acquired players stopped playing it.
"Why work so hard for rewards I already have?" "Rewards aren't worth the effort."

Again, I think you generalise too much. You are so fixated on the so called endgame players as if they're all the same brain, or a hive-mind.

Arbitrations are actually easier than regular endless because the scaling is so much slower. There are no leaderboards for it. Also, it's completely random which game mode is going to be available, this makes them exceptionally horrible. Kinda like fissures, there's no choice. The missions are all random.

I would much rather get a third of the rewards but every five minutes instead and have much faster scaling. The drones have actually the potential of stopping players from going forever in the mission (and that's a very good thing, it's healthy for players and leaderboards) but it would take you a lifetime to see a level 1000 drone. It's probably not even possible to reach that level in arbitrations. It's quite the disappointment tbh, we finally get our chance at faster scaling and DE implements the complete opposite.

22 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

So...yeah...what does the "endgame" desiring playerbase desire?
What rewards could possibly be given to you that would please you day after day?

It can't be Mods. Because once you have 1 or 3 copies you're set. Unless you farm them to sell for plat.
It can't be Rivens. Players seem to be rolling in them & are frustrated with their chaotic mechanics.
It can't be Weapons. Once you have them well...you have them.
It can't be Cosmetics. Because they aren't worth the effort such a hard mode would demand, also...once you have them...you have them.
It can't be resources. They are everywhere.
It can't be standing. Because once you've bought the vendor out of house & home the standing becomes useless.
It can't be Kuva because why work so hard for Kuva when it's acquirable via easier & quicker means.

So what reward could possibly stand the test of time, remain relevant, remain desirable, & be worth the effort?

I'm fine getting mods, rivens, resources, standing, and kuva. In the end, all that translates to platinum. And I'm very much interested in increasing my in game wealth, which helps me progress faster. And I would be very much interested in farming all that stuff in game modes that have replayability. Right now farming all that stuff in the regular content feels just dull.

22 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Because the truth is...
No one wants to so hard/challenging content just for fun. Well...not anymore. Now everything needs to have a reward.

The truth is that not even DE would dare add harder content and not give improved rewards, it's just logical for them to do so. They need to justify the addition of harder content so they add rewards to it. So even if people don't ask for it DE will still add them.

21 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

...Beginning to feel like I'm the only one who plays to just have an absolute blast & for a good time...

I'm in the same boat; however, at no point I assume that the game is perfect and there is no room for improvement.

The fact that both you and I tolerate the games faults, doesn't mean there are no faults. Jeez, take the most recent example. As you might know, Steve declared that they have been doing controller input wrong all along since the very inception, introducing unnecessary input lag. For people on PC it's easier to notice something is off as they have easier access to mouse and keyboard and can compare at least the difference in responsiveness. Tons of PC post complaining about controllers. Consoles, however, don't have that luxury, and so people come to the game and think the controllers are either fine and stay or think the controllers are terrible and leave. No matter how good the parkour, if the controllers don't feel responsive enough that will turn away players. Very few console players notice these controller issues once they get hooked because they don't know better. Clanmates would be completely dumbfounded when I shared my problems about controller responsiveness, I thought it was on my end for the longest time because how could DE make a mistake right?

The point is you don't know what your missing, so please don't be so complacent. Now they're working on better controllers and that will improve the gameplay experience of every one that uses them. And it will most definitely help with player retention, because yeah the game might feel just that good after the changes. Don't dismiss people giving feedback, this game has a lot of room for improvement yet.

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23 hours ago, ArkThanatos said:

Dear Bitesizers
your solution of "artificial Difficulty" is NOT only Stupid but adding to the already LARGE amounts of difficulty artificial difficulty that this game is plagues with.
we are ALREADY gimped in this game because of the Bitesize community, that is overly #*!%ing selfish, consists of casual players who Object to anything that might take some form of skill to do. and ANY #*!%ING TIME! that a mention of something for endgame\endurance community has been brought up, you all push back like a bunch of selfish jerks.
we look for difficult content and would like a bit of compensation for our time. you piss off as soon as the bell rings. out the door thru the gate and into the sunset. YET you believe we should be only be awarded the same crap as you. this is like being a part time worker wanting only 3 5hr shifts  a week but getting paid the same as a 5 day 39hr week employee. 
IF you dont want to do the time, then dont, but you lot have been spoon fed and spoilt. yet the endurance community has been given very very few things from the Devs, Nidus being about the best thing we got. 

telling people who want a challenge and better rewards and actively seeking it out (in a game you have to love a whole lot to do this in) to artificially gimp them selves, do shorter runs and that we should not be given ANYTHING more than you is not only a complete &#036;&amp;*^ move but also divides a already dividing community. how about you lot already have been give the larges portion of the #*!%ing game, you have had every #*!%ing *@##&#036; an moan tended too... LIKE FORTUNA DIFFICULTY! That was you lot, NOT the endurance community. 

there are people saying "oh its because certain people bring certain frames to get to max level... " YEAH takes better part of 15 hrs to get there.. these people deserve a #*!%ing medal and a spot on the leader boards. they not only actively went to the extreme and done everything you couldn't, but had the patients to deal with the S#&amp;&#036; rewards, go the mile and do something many people can't. 

any time scaling rewards comes up, bitesizers push back, there is always pushback becase a very #*!%ing select few people go to the extreme, and you dont want them to get more than you. 
if you ran a marathon and finished 50 minutes after 1st place, are you going to demand you get 1st prize ?. are you going to *@##&#036; moan and pushback because the skilled talented and people who put in the work can do more than you could ??. sit on that an think about it. if you are too ignorant to accept the people who do the long runs deserve more. than hope you watch lazy #*!%s at your work get paid more than you for less hrs. 

 

Let me be blunt. We 'bitesizers' outnumber you on a scale your mind cannot comprehend. This is our game. DE knows this is our game because DE made this our game. DE is never going to give you anything, which is very good, because you deserve less than nothing. You and your tiny little band of fake tryhards wander into what is one of the most intentionally easy games on the planet and start wanting the game changed for you so you can cosplay as a big fish in a small pond. Not happening.

 

Get frustrated, leave the game, and take LifeofRio with you. None of you will be missed.

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1 hour ago, LupisV0lk said:

I find these guys funny, mainly because they are't the problem. Those who enjoy "bite sized" content isn't the issue because they're never at that level of play, it's always the veterans and try hards who are. For the simple fact when DE throws them a challenge they "REEE" hard because thier power creep...oh sorry fantasy has been ruined.

AKA: Those wanting the game to be harder don't really want it to be harder.

Also DE ought to punish LifeOf"Expletive" due to his documented toxicity towards his fellow tenno.

OH like arbitrations... that had its level lowered for bitesize players.
Or fortuna the original nerf to fortuna. 

as soon as "something for the vets" comes out, bitesizers complain. becuase they cant do it. or more to the point, they pick wrong weapons and frames and are incapable of flexibility. 
i would like the game to be harder. the Way DE does it is not actually harder, they create amounts of Artificial difficulty, rather than AI improvements, working on Mob classes properly, they just throw Armour and invulnerability at it. thats not more difficult just plain lazy. 

Actual difficulty/good AI would be the best thing for the game. mobs they dont march 1 by 1, walk everywhere, get stuck on stupid S#&amp;&#036;. inteligent AI in games is a much Better way to make a game difficult, Warframes AI is actually really bad. especially when you look at it in comparison to a game like ME3 AI (yes completely different games but bear with me).

Guardians vs shielders. the Guardians are designed to block fire, close the gap, flank and force you to move all the while they only open them selves up when hitting you with a shield bash that staggers you, otherwise the shield never drops, u have to shoot thru a slit in the shield to kill them OR take in AP rounds that btw have reduced dmg per target it goes thru. can be disarmed (shield removed) with very specific abilities.
warframe shielders are derpy as hell, open them selves up to attack, and just run at you rather than moving around you as well. 

ancients vs marauders 
ancients move at the speed of erosion passively apply a buff and knock you over... again apply the run straight at you (near on single file) 
Marauders, use cover, have to cast a buff, highly mobile. tend to try and flank you while normal mobs run at you from the front (such as husk and butchers).
they carry a decently powerful gun but can turn cannon fodder into a real issue with their armour plat buff (not armoured HP but sections of armour that recieves little to no dmg  that is scattered across the fodder mobs body meaning lining up the shot rather than spraying is advisable) 

Ravangers vs bombards
bombards, armour more armour plus armour and homing missle, shoots a few times, again runs at you slowly then just shoots (this just runs at you is a reoccurring them here)
Ravangers lowish mob, Long range attacks, 3-4 fast straight line missiles that can be dodged with timing. devastating to slower targets. has a weak point points on the body. drops add on death and a toxin zone. pretty resistant to melee. weaker to AP and fire damage, certain abilities dont really phase it. 

Centurions vs corpus techs 
Centurions deploy smoke screens, have a strong melee, will frontal assult and flank, tankier than standard units with use of shield and armoured AP bars. medium hitting weapons great average mob type, quiet strong in groups. will grenade the S#&amp;&#036; out of your location. because #*!% you stop hiding behind that cover.
corpus techs... again run at you aimlessly.. decent hitting weapon admittedly, deploys a drone ... just some shield and bunch of HP, basically its a normal mob with more HP and a drone but doesnt really add a tactical benefit. 

Praetorian vs Kyta Raknoid
Ok so this is where DE done a mob right.
Both have a dual HP bar, Both have a recharge shield ability. Both have a beam attack.
Kyta has disco attack beam (bit lazy, just throw in AOE). has a cool electric net ability. pretty damn tanky. strong attacks, relocation into 2nd phase. pretty awesome mechanic. i really love these guys, this is proof that DE can actually inteligently make a good mob.

praetorian actively seeks out a player, jumps at them, if the jump hits correctly Or if you stand too close you can be insta gibbed, it has a close range fast attack staggering melee attack, but moves pretty slow, very tanky, not a immediate threat on the field, but you WILL have to kill it before it is ontop of you. or even starts getting to the mid range. kitting helps.
it has a long range beam. thats 1 direction and it can fire it several times in your direction. 

these 2 are somewhat closer to each other. thou different game types yes, but the core of the game is still there. Move about, shoot stuff. don't die and complete mission. remove the stories, remove the RPG stuff like that. they are both sci fi, multi faction with varying mob types. but DE's mobs all act the same on approach. run in 1 direction. rarely use cover, pretty slow. and shoot while walking
ME mobs have thier own thing, ranging from likes to flank you, stealth's up on you, teleports about, attacks at long range as much as possible. fast moving, slow and tanky as hell with a WMD cannon, Highly defensive flanking units, units designed to flush you out, to rush at you, to wait you out, to snip you, to suppress you. 

the difference is, Mass Effect did have a more challenging intelligent AI and Mobs. they didn't have to Ramp up HR, armour and damage, add invulnerability and buff all units mobs, they have alot of mob types and they are all varying in how they function. this makes a actual realistic true difficulty. (thou not perfect still are some derps in ME) 
warframes difficulty. BUFF everything with damage reduction and armour, keep adding armour and HP and Dmg and surely it is difficult... then add invulnerability. but the mobs act the same. the have little mechanical differences. no mobs actually actively try an flank, they all just rush position. non of them really do much at all so the only difficulty warframe has is add more HP and dmg. but the mechanics remain the same. and did i mention SLOW... they all move slow. evolution moves faster. 

they can make a good mob when they want to, the Kyta and the new jackal are good examples, they could make the game difficult or challenging with good mechanics and proactively designing a smart mob. but by and large they dull things down.
warframe does also have this odd issue with not wanting to let someone fail a mission. they go out of their way to make it so you wont fail. so there is no challenge there either  (besides arbitrations), boss fights arent actually a problem, there is little risk or failure in this game, you are given as many chances as possible. so there is little to learn from a mistake, if you screw up in many other games, you are punished for it, you have to learn you have to adapt, you have to change up tactics. there is such little risk in warframe that as soon as there is a risk it is out side the comfort zone we have grown a custom to. 
 

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21 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

 

Let me be blunt. We 'bitesizers' outnumber you on a scale your mind cannot comprehend. This is our game. DE knows this is our game because DE made this our game. DE is never going to give you anything, which is very good, because you deserve less than nothing. You and your tiny little band of fake tryhards wander into what is one of the most intentionally easy games on the planet and start wanting the game changed for you so you can cosplay as a big fish in a small pond. Not happening.

 

Get frustrated, leave the game, and take LifeofRio with you. None of you will be missed.

well let me be blunt, you are one of those people who would get stuck in a dark souls tutorial because it presents a slight challenge. and we might not be the majority, but least we arent afraid of a challenge or failure. 
life is nothing without a challenge, a game without a challenge will die. might not be this yr. night not be for 5 more. but this game will not stand a test of time with out a challenge. unless more and more people become soft and feeble who run from a challenge or anything slightly difficult. 

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19 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

a game without a challenge will die.

A game with a challenge will also die. All games eventually die, but whether or not it's challenging is rarely a factor.

Hell, empirical evidence kinda disagrees with you, given that this game has only ever had an upwards trend in terms of its player counts. So DE must be doing something right.

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