I dont want more STUFF. I need SCALING content.

[John_Prodman1337]

7 minutes ago, Corvid said:

A game with a challenge will also die. All games eventually die, but whether or not it's challenging is rarely a factor.

Hell, empirical evidence kinda disagrees with you, given that this game has only ever had an upwards trend in terms of its player counts. So DE must be doing something right.

Runescape seems dead last time I checked

 

/s

[LupisV0lk]

1 hour ago, ArkThanatos said:

Actual difficulty/good AI would be the best thing for the game
 

No, no it wouldn't. We'd be waiting a 100 years for a game developer to make an AI that good and then proceed to dumb it down because baddies can't handle it.

Again we had difficulty, but the power fantasy loving "reeeee'd" and all got gimped on the cries of yet again veterans.

[John_Prodman1337]

7 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

No, no it wouldn't. We'd be waiting a 100 years for a game developer to make an AI that good and then proceed to dumb it down because baddies can't handle it.

Again we had difficulty, but the power fantasy loving "reeeee'd" and all got gimped on the cries of yet again veterans.

*coughs in titanfall*

[ArkThanatos]

9 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

No, no it wouldn't. We'd be waiting a 100 years for a game developer to make an AI that good and then proceed to dumb it down because baddies can't handle it.

Again we had difficulty, but the power fantasy loving "reeeee'd" and all got gimped on the cries of yet again veterans.

Alien Isolation, look at that AI you muppet, Go play mass effect trilogy, infact go and have a look at the top 10 best AI in games on youtube if you have to, there are many games with Great AI. didn't take 100 yrs, it just took some time and intelligence. go see a Doctor about your HIAs

Edited December 16, 2018 by ArkThanatos

[RX-3DR]

4 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

Alien Isolation, look at that AI you muppet, Go play mass effect trilogy, infact go and have a look at the top 10 best AI in games on youtube if you have to, there are many games with Great AI. didn't take 100 yrs, it just took some time and intelligence. go see a Doctor about your HIAs

Imagine we had that level of AI implemented. He stalks and runs up to you and then, whoops, he touched Limbo's Catacylsm, and is now frozen is place. Provided he didn't die far beyond visible line of sight. You have to understand that good AI is not worth anything if used in the wrong context. It's simply too easy for us to avoid or steamroll most combat, just look at the Juggernaut and the Grineer Nox.

Just because it worked right in one game doesn't mean you can just pick it up and drop it into another game and it will magically work.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

I really find it boring running endless missions, 

1) void keys is changed to relics, instead of using one key and try to play endless for multiple token, 
it is required you used up what used to be 1 key for every single reward,

this inevitably iron out the difficulty curve and put weapons and warframe with multiple forma
obsolete unless player choose to challenge themselves, even then the reward is simply not there.

So resource farming simply can 20 minute, rinse and repeat.

2) Enemies are merely bullet sponges, and deal more damage, 
as we might think high level content would require more skill, no they don't.
It is pre-determined in your modding how far you can kill as far as enemy levels is concerned, 
fighting a level 20 vs 100 corrupted heavy gunner is not much of a difference as long as your vectis prime is killing them 1 hit.

3) All endless missions need a certain time before they reaches sortie level difficulty, 
- Other than sortie, kuva missions, there is no high level missions in the star chart for those that love the challenge.


Suggestion

1) Difficulty selection (note this effectively multiply all the nodes by all the difficulty levels)

Amateur(+0 level, current) ,

Normal (+10 level start) [level 30+ missions will be level 40+ ] 
+10% resource drop rate, + 20% rare resource drop rate
+5% EXP earned

Hard (+20 level start) [level 30+ missions will be level 50+ ]
+20% resource drop rate, +30% rare resource drop rate
+10% EXP earned

Veteran (+30 level start) [level 30+ missions will be level 60+ ]
+30% resource drop rate, +40% rare resource drop rate
+15% EXP earned

Professional (+40 level start) [level 30+ missions will be level 70+ ]
+40% resource drop rate, +50% rare resource drop rate
+20% EXP earned

Expert (+50 level start) [level 30+ missions will be level 80+ ]
+50% resource drop rate, +60% rare resource drop rate 
+25% EXP earned

Special unit distribution changes with difficulty level, you will tend to face more Nox, Bombrd, Maniac, Ambulas etc at Expert difficulty
more than Veteran difficulty

2) Star Junction has multiple tiers, weapon blueprint and rewards are multiple, 
default tier is the current one, higher tier star junction have EXCLUSIVE weapon/ warframe reward.
that cannot be bought from market, farm from relic or lab research.
A player need to clear the star junction for the reward.

3) Master Rank locked tier, as some of the weapons is higher tier, they can go ridiculous OP,
just that we might see MR15+ as requirement to use.

4) On mission difficulty - Professional & Expert, there is RE event (Random Encounter)
difficulty exclusive sub bosses that is "mutated" version of mini boss/ planet boss will spawn in rooms (much like orokin room)
these bosses can have their exclusive relics, blueprints, mods and items which cannot be farm elsewhere.

In boss battle, life support and timer will pause during the entire battle.


5) Hard & Veteran mode - G3, Zanuka, etc random encounter will spawn every rotation C,
dropping their rewards, (or some random mutated bosses)
 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[FlusteredFerret]

11 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Imagine we had that level of AI implemented. He stalks and runs up to you and then, whoops, he touched Limbo's Catacylsm, and is now frozen is place. Provided he didn't die far beyond visible line of sight. You have to understand that good AI is not worth anything if used in the wrong context. It's simply too easy for us to avoid or steamroll most combat, just look at the Juggernaut and the Grineer Nox.

Just because it worked right in one game doesn't mean you can just pick it up and drop it into another game and it will magically work.

Exactly. In those other games, players don't have anything like the capabilities they do in WF. You just can't make comparisons.

 

Not to mention that if players have sufficiently powerful frames / weapons, it doesn't matter how good the AI is.

No amount of scripts or decision trees will make AIs challenging, if players have the ability to lock down or clear entire maps with the push of a button.

 

And if you give AIs the ability to ignore / nullify those powers, you can bet vets will cry about their favourite set-ups suddenly being "trash".

As I've said a few times now, DE basically can't win, whatever they do.

Edited December 16, 2018 by FlusteredFerret

[LupisV0lk]

19 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

Alien Isolation, look at that AI you muppet, Go play mass effect trilogy, infact go and have a look at the top 10 best AI in games on youtube if you have to, there are many games with Great AI. didn't take 100 yrs, it just took some time and intelligence. go see a Doctor about your HIAs

Alien Is: A singleplayer game. Different beast when compared to a co-op horde hack&Slash. ME has simple AI. Is there a chest high wall Y) go camp behind it N) just stand in the open and shoot.

At this point i do have to wonder what agenda your pushing, since your so aggressive and toxic to all who disagree with you.

[LupisV0lk]

2 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

 

As I've said a few times now, DE basically can't win, whatever they do.

Dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. alas the general populace of this forum can't fathom that.

[ArkThanatos]

11 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Imagine we had that level of AI implemented. He stalks and runs up to you and then, whoops, he touched Limbo's Catacylsm, and is now frozen is place. Provided he didn't die far beyond visible line of sight. You have to understand that good AI is not worth anything if used in the wrong context. It's simply too easy for us to avoid or steamroll most combat, just look at the Juggernaut and the Grineer Nox.

Just because it worked right in one game doesn't mean you can just pick it up and drop it into another game and it will magically work.

but it would make the game in general alot more difficult. that is just one example, atm we steam roll them because they are a lazy AI. they all act the same, its like lemmins really.
it would actually make the game more difficult if each mob was given a more individual mechanic, ones that can overcome some abilities, take reduced dmg from certain attacks. now this would be some what more excessive in warframe due to the ability count. BUT AH that moves more intelligently, has different styles of attacking and approach, would be alot better than the lemmins they are now. 
just scaling HP armour and dmg is lazy, invulnerability is artificial difficulty. as great as this game is, it has some pretty big flaws. Better AI would make the game not only more challenging but more fun, as not everything would be run up an shoot it front on. this game is frontal assault by and large, because there is no real tactics to it. there are few things that you can not use this tactic on. 

what if things like Corpus Drones, Grineer napalmers and infeasted Boilers could be unaffected by the rift ? little things like that where they can shrug off most CC types of abilities but are weaker to another type (like melee abilities, not melee attacks but abilities) 

things like that would make it alot more challenging, atm DE has a apply to all mentality.
 

[Kierlak]

1 hour ago, ArkThanatos said:

well let me be blunt, you are one of those people who would get stuck in a dark souls tutorial because it presents a slight challenge. and we might not be the majority, but least we arent afraid of a challenge or failure. 
life is nothing without a challenge, a game without a challenge will die. might not be this yr. night not be for 5 more. but this game will not stand a test of time with out a challenge. unless more and more people become soft and feeble who run from a challenge or anything slightly difficult. 

 

When I want challenge, I go play a game designed for it from the start. I don't pretend to want a challenge in space ninja rice harvesting simulator, and then cheese it to death with ancient healers, zenistars, and zarr spam.

[ArkThanatos]

8 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

Alien Is: A singleplayer game. Different beast when compared to a co-op horde hack&Slash. ME has simple AI. Is there a chest high wall Y) go camp behind it N) just stand in the open and shoot.

At this point i do have to wonder what agenda your pushing, since your so aggressive and toxic to all who disagree with you.

but you said it couldn't be done, so i pointed out advanced AI exists and you have back peddled on the "it cant be done". it can be done, not in this game, but intelligent AI is a thing, it could be implemented into warframe. Mass effect has a more advanced AI than warframe, it is by far more intelligent. the WF AI is lemmins. smarter AI, better Mobs would create an actual challenge. yes you could still kill S#&$ like no tomorrow, but at least it wouldn't be lemmins but something that if you mess up could take you out alot more quickly. somethings that could force you to make mistakes. force you out of cover. actually present a threat. 

im not going to say im not toxic. to some i am toxic to others im not, it is the same for everyone that has ever existed. it is subjective and how you interpret a person.  my agenda is that the game is big enough to accommodate both parties of endurance and bitesize. but it tends to one and neglects the other.  

[ArkThanatos]

3 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

 

When I want challenge, I go play a game designed for it from the start. I don't pretend to want a challenge in space ninja rice harvesting simulator, and then cheese it to death with ancient healers, zenistars, and zarr spam.

yeah and what game would you call challenging ? 

asking for things to be improved isn't a bad thing, what i am talking about would have a better chance of preventing camping style game play. if something forces you from cover you cant camp, you then have to deal with the other mobs once out of cover. things like that would make it more challenging 

[RX-3DR]

23 minutes ago, ArkThanatos said:

but it would make the game in general alot more difficult. that is just one example, atm we steam roll them because they are a lazy AI. they all act the same, its like lemmins really.
it would actually make the game more difficult if each mob was given a more individual mechanic, ones that can overcome some abilities, take reduced dmg from certain attacks. now this would be some what more excessive in warframe due to the ability count. BUT AH that moves more intelligently, has different styles of attacking and approach, would be alot better than the lemmins they are now. 
just scaling HP armour and dmg is lazy, invulnerability is artificial difficulty. as great as this game is, it has some pretty big flaws. Better AI would make the game not only more challenging but more fun, as not everything would be run up an shoot it front on. this game is frontal assault by and large, because there is no real tactics to it. there are few things that you can not use this tactic on. 

what if things like Corpus Drones, Grineer napalmers and infeasted Boilers could be unaffected by the rift ? little things like that where they can shrug off most CC types of abilities but are weaker to another type (like melee abilities, not melee attacks but abilities) 

things like that would make it alot more challenging, atm DE has a apply to all mentality.

A few things were implemented to serve this purpose, Corpus Nullifiers, Grineer Manic, etc. These got whined to insignificance and the irony is that most of the complaints weren't so much the people in the middle but from the ones in the extreme who claim that all of those are "artificial difficulty" which is a term that doesn't actually mean anything at this point with how everyone throws it around to describe things they dislike.

Ultimately, the value of an enemy will primarily revolve around how immune or resistant they are to cheese tactics unless we get scaled back. Whether or not they try to bounce off walls or run directly at you has little effect as long as the first condition isn't being met so having better AI will bare no fruit for now.

Edited December 16, 2018 by RX-3DR

[ArkThanatos]

7 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

A few things were implemented to serve this purpose, Corpus Nullifiers, Grineer Manic, etc. These got whined to insignificance and the irony is that most of the complaints weren't so much the people in the middle but from the ones in the extreme who claim that all of those are "artificial difficulty" which is a term that doesn't actually mean anything at this point with how everyone throws it around to describe things they dislike.

Ultimately, the value of an enemy will primarily revolve around how immune or resistant they are to cheese tactics unless we get scaled back. Whether or not they try to bounce off walls or run directly at you has little effect as long as the first condition isn't being met so having better AI will bare no fruit for now.

i do agree to an extent, like there is a over use in some cases of one thing other things are under utilised. nully's are annoying but manageable. they are somewhat artificial but leaning towards the more tactical. AI improvements would bare fruit if done correctly. i think Manics are woefully underused and also kinda bad design is to blame, i had one stand next to me for about 5 seconds before blinking away.  they have potential to be a great mob if the present a threat. because atm they just mostly jump about if they ever show up. 

things like Limbos rift is somewhat something that could be difficult for a AI to deal with. but the same time, is doing nothing at all to make a challenge any better than leaving it without a challenge?. 
they have the potential to make this game great, make it challenging in the right way. (invulnerability is just lazy) but having things like team scaling bosses and some elites would be good (so more people more hp and what not on the Elites and bosses, like DS3 does, or something to this effect). new unique mobs or intelligent mobs would be great.  but how to do it correctly could be something more challenging

[Kierlak]

1 hour ago, ArkThanatos said:

yeah and what game would you call challenging ? 

 

A first person shooter versus other people.

 

 

[IIDMOII]

On 2018-12-14 at 4:47 PM, FlusteredFerret said:

 

FYI this is actually a game about accumulating stuff and progressing a storyline, more than it is about "unlimited powaaaaaarrrrr!!!!111". If that doesn't float your boat anymore, I'd suggest looking for something else to play.

 

Says you. So someone's idea of the game doesn't match yours so they should just leave? 

We've been accumulating stuff for 5 years. I think we have enough.

What story? You mean the ret conned mess that put a child in control of my ship? 

I agree with the op 100%. This game needs a reason to exist. It needs a goal. An endgame. Put into context the reason we've been accumulating ..... stuff.

[Medeucea]

The game doesn't need Scaling" it needs to be re-balanced to make the existing systems more interesting.Damage resistance, mobility mods, 15/16 element combinations, shields and auras all need to be re balanced. 

The problem you guys are having is that we are so powerful that most of the mods aren't strong, or useful enough to be necessary.

Basically people wouldn't be complaining about content difficulty if one or more slots were occupied by element resistance and mobility mods. I mean come on In june i needed rifle ammo mods for the star chart today i can go an hour without worrying about ammo

This game has bigger issues, And they wont be solved by increasing the amount of bullets it takes to kill a random enemy nobody cares about.

[ThumpumGood]

I been suggesting an option to select enemy starting level for a long time. I miss the days of having a leader board competition, if even in our own minds, where you tried to out last other dojos and make it to that mob lv 300 just because you could. Not having 3 hours to run like that, fixed content and lack of reward has changed all of that. It would be nice to have a challenge again. The ability to select mob level at the beginning would be a great way to solve that.. I understand that it could ruin PoE and OV so it would have to be on non-event missions, but it would be a great add to the game.

NOTE: Non-event meaning Not alerts, fissures, invasions, bounties, etc.

[SaidTheRogue]

8 hours ago, ArkThanatos said:

WOW seems to being doing alright after 14 yrs or so

Wrong, speaking as someone who played it for years and years, the active subs steadily decreased over the years. At its peak it was only about 12 million. 

[Fire2box]

Scaling rewards won't work for endo, kuva or relics. AKA: the only thing end game players could want.

It would 100% put lower end players on a forever sliding scale of not being able to keep pace with the veterans. Even worse friends can get taxi'ed by their end game friends and leapfrog solo or public players incredibly hard who started around the same time as them. Not to mention with scaling rewards it would pretty much be Hema 2.0 "I worked my but off for that 40k endo to max out ___ primed mod. Why do they get by with 1/4th the work?"

 

 

[BallisticSalsa]

On 2018-12-14 at 11:52 PM, deothor said:

So far we have just arbitrations. It's difficult to be satisfied just from 1 thing, especially if it's meh.

You know I did an eyeroll when this was the collective reaction.

An eyeroll because arbitration was the brainchild of developers listening to its community.

People wanted stuff done with the Arbiters the only syndicate mostly ignored.

People wanted a game mode where Saryn/Mesa couldnt simply press 4 to win. So they gave us drones that made mobs immune to both damage and powers.

People wanted endless missions the bite sized brigade won't simply extract at first opportunity. So they doubled time between rewards requiring significantly more time investment. So someone just hanging out for 5 waves will do it elsewhere.

As this thread claims people wanted scaling rewards.  So the reward table changed from abcabc to abcccc... in order to incentivize players to stay for increased rewards.

Another tidbit was that revives make the game too easy and people didnt want to play whack-a-tenno trying to pick up downed frames every second so they gave you 0 revives. 

And lastly, because the community demanded it, they locked the content behind the star chart forcing players to hit every dot on the map to even qualify.

Players wanted to see more frame and weapon diversity. So they added in massive power and damage bonuses to a random frame that differed from player to player. 

Alllllllllll this and the collective response was "meh". I can only imagine the dark humor in the office following that release.

So yes. The challenge community will never be satisfied because they ask the game what cannot be provided nor what puts dinner on Steve Sinclair's table.

And for my part being more interested in merely functional or meme builds far more likely to forma my Garuda for a 5th time over my Saryn the arbitrations are fine. They can serve as the foundation for some thing bigger.

Nothing says they cant expand the loot table to a D or E rotation to give things like 4 hour affinity or credit boosters. Nothing prevents them from expanding the vitus essence list to include things like many many more cosmetics or even a chance to purchase potatoes, forma, or other such things on daily or hourly randomizations.

Heck they can even add in new more deadly drones that enhance enemy damage or randomly teleport/bounce players around.

But, again, as history has shown us. All of this is temporary. People thought Stalker was a human controlled enemy. I imagine those first few weeks figuring out tridolons were something to witness before one shot chromas, volt shields and 223 or 323 amps came to be meta.

So yes DE has tried, multiple times with varying degrees of success, to give you what you want. Amd they'll keep trying. But Id like for people to actually observe what they're saying versus what they mean versus what they're getting and appreciate that they might not always get what they want but something nonetheless unexpected.

 

[FlusteredFerret]

8 minutes ago, BallisticSalsa said:

You know I did an eyeroll when this was the collective reaction.

An eyeroll because arbitration was the brainchild of developers listening to its community.

People wanted stuff done with the Arbiters the only syndicate mostly ignored.

People wanted a game mode where Saryn/Mesa couldnt simply press 4 to win. So they gave us drones that made mobs immune to both damage and powers.

People wanted endless missions the bite sized brigade won't simply extract at first opportunity. So they doubled time between rewards requiring significantly more time investment. So someone just hanging out for 5 waves will do it elsewhere.

As this thread claims people wanted scaling rewards.  So the reward table changed from abcabc to abcccc... in order to incentivize players to stay for increased rewards.

Another tidbit was that revives make the game too easy and people didnt want to play whack-a-tenno trying to pick up downed frames every second so they gave you 0 revives. 

And lastly, because the community demanded it, they locked the content behind the star chart forcing players to hit every dot on the map to even qualify.

Players wanted to see more frame and weapon diversity. So they added in massive power and damage bonuses to a random frame that differed from player to player. 

Alllllllllll this and the collective response was "meh". I can only imagine the dark humor in the office following that release.

So yes. The challenge community will never be satisfied because they ask the game what cannot be provided nor what puts dinner on Steve Sinclair's table.

And for my part being more interested in merely functional or meme builds far more likely to forma my Garuda for a 5th time over my Saryn the arbitrations are fine. They can serve as the foundation for some thing bigger.

Nothing says they cant expand the loot table to a D or E rotation to give things like 4 hour affinity or credit boosters. Nothing prevents them from expanding the vitus essence list to include things like many many more cosmetics or even a chance to purchase potatoes, forma, or other such things on daily or hourly randomizations.

Heck they can even add in new more deadly drones that enhance enemy damage or randomly teleport/bounce players around.

But, again, as history has shown us. All of this is temporary. People thought Stalker was a human controlled enemy. I imagine those first few weeks figuring out tridolons were something to witness before one shot chromas, volt shields and 223 or 323 amps came to be meta.

So yes DE has tried, multiple times with varying degrees of success, to give you what you want. Amd they'll keep trying. But Id like for people to actually observe what they're saying versus what they mean versus what they're getting and appreciate that they might not always get what they want but something nonetheless unexpected.

 

I want to give you a hug for saying all that...

 

 

[Fire2box]

1 hour ago, BallisticSalsa said:

 

Alllllllllll this and the collective response was "meh". I can only imagine the dark humor in the office following that release.

So yes. The challenge community will never be satisfied because they ask the game what cannot be provided nor what puts dinner on Steve Sinclair's table.

because it's not even sortie level to start with. The highest level content in the game is STILL SORTIES. the reason people don't play arbitration is simply it's too easy and the rewards are just endo once you get (or buy) the mods you want. With Defense arby's I could simply run stage 1, bounty 5 cetus and likely earn just as much endo or more. Same with Survival. 

ABCCCCCCCCC, etc is cool. But the C rotation has to have rewards people want or it means nothing to them. And you know where ABCCCCCCC should exist? Sanctuary Onslaught not elite just the normal one since Kohra drops are legitimately bullS#&$. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Fire2box

[BallisticSalsa]

37 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

because it's not even sortie level to start with. The highest level content in the game is STILL SORTIES. the reason people don't play arbitration is simply it's too easy and the rewards are just endo once you get (or buy) the mods you want. With Defense arby's I could simply run stage 1, bounty 5 cetus and likely earn just as much endo or more. Same with Survival. 

And this just a contradiction of what you think it provides versus what it does provide.

Here's the trick. Level is meaningless past a certain point. It's just bigger numbers that serve as a gate between pieces of gear. If you have no issues doing sortie 3 with augmented armor than chances are arbitration will still be too easy with the same gear.  Moreover it locks out the whole point of incentivizing diversity. A player hoping to  hit rotation c on level 200 enemies isn't going to be bringing 300% power banshee. Heck probably not even Saryn without a frost bubble or volt shield to cower behind.

In other words without major overhauls your god tier set up will just remain god tier no matter how big the numbers get. You now know how Saitama feels.

Beyond that is just a general criticism of games in general. Why do anything if you have all you want? At the very least endo is one of those resources you will almost always need.

Thankfully there's an opportunity for change and growth. These things come slow because the demands we make are beyond number. But let's not pretend we didn't ask for all of it.