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can we all work together for the coming storm?


(PSN)alvian00
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8 hours ago, Beartornado said:

Chimera spoilers continue*

Y’all forgetting Glast (best faction head, who tbh i would love to have been involved in fortuna) and Teshin, who is now left to languish in an unloved aspect of warframe.

Inclusion of the existing factions would help a tad more richness to the lore world.

You have the aftermath of the Silver grove, where the faction head, to her credit, sat back and reevaluated her views and the like.

The Cephalon faction of Simaris and Suda. Now Simaris I don’t like. His talk of the singularity, if y’all know what that means, and “testing” is all suspect. So is Suda.

Hexis is in a bit of a mess. For a faction who sees tenno as something more than a war machine, they mostly go against it (see arbitrations).

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

In so far as I can tell, the kind of change this person's suggesting is to completely change the paths of players on either side, so that they go down different story routes.

The idea goes against completionists and is a butt load of more work for the devs, with no particular upside engagement wise. So meh. It works for single player where you can choose a save file or character creation, but very few would elect to make multiple accounts.

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

The idea goes against completionists and is a butt load of more work for the devs, with no particular upside engagement wise. So meh. It works for single player where you can choose a save file or character creation, but very few would elect to make multiple accounts.

That's... pretty much what I was saying, yes.

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44 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

Yeah I am totally a Lotus' loyalist. She is a sentient so her mannerisms may come off cold, but she has watched over us for so long and kept things from us so we don't have mental breakdown. Given the choice, I would defo be on Team Lotus and bring her back into the fold.

She hasn't betrayed us, she's just confused and 'reclaimed', I will be satisfied if we bring her back to the fold although I can already predict many will be angry at this resolution.

I think that it is even simpler than that, I think that people just haven't paid any attention to what was going on in the game and filled in the gaps with whatever the first thing to pop into their heads was. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I think that it is even simpler than that, I think that people just haven't paid any attention to what was going on in the game and filled in the gaps with whatever the first thing to pop into their heads was. 

Yup - I actually did a video on 'The Lotus DID not Use Us'. Highlighting how obvious it is that she hasn't been manipulating us this whole time - that she has shown herself to be on our sides many times and that her actions in past quests (damaging Hunhow's plans) make no sense if she had been manipulating us the whole time.

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20 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

Yup - I actually did a video on 'The Lotus DID not Use Us'. Highlighting how obvious it is that she hasn't been manipulating us this whole time - that she has shown herself to be on our sides many times and that her actions in past quests (damaging Hunhow's plans) make no sense if she had been manipulating us the whole time.

The problem is people WANT her to be morally ambiguous. I mean outside of a) Not telling you about yer TRAUMATIC past which she explains why she didn't in the same quest and b) Not telling you what she really was for really obvious reasons! She isn't exactly a deceiver. Teshin (who I also like) is pretty much the exact same way and pretty much nobody has a problem with it coming from him.

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12 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh, you mean that quest where she was under attack, and was busy trying to protect herself and us from the sentient attack? 

Yeah you're absolutely right that's no reason not to pick up the phone when we call to ask her silly questions about stuff that's not really relevant to "staying alive". /s

 

I mean really, that's a very selfish attitude to have, especially considering that she's been protecting us from her own family for the last however many centuries, and specifically intervened to save your life. 

 

If there is a group of Tenno who align themselves based on jumping to conclusions and abandoning people who have done so much for us, I think that I might rather check to see if the Stalker is accepting new acolytes instead. Just saying. 

Out of game I understand it would be a huge pain to record and program all the additional lines needed but without it we are just blindly trusting in Lotus because what? She looks like someone who was our substitute mom after our parents were caged/slaughtered in the events of the Ten-Zero? She has made lotus around this ideal image we have of Margulas using our memories of this shinning figure in our time of darkness to use us ,as stated in the Chains of Harrow Quest, the same way Ballas said she manipulated him during the Chimera prolog.

Lotus has been using us since we woke up and even before that. Every spy mission she refuses to tell us what the data is for. The defense missions where we protect the pods of other warframes why doesn’t she just wake them up like she did us? Exterminate missions for corpus or grineer are just “go here and murder everyone because I say so.” Survival we know that there is another agent somewhere getting information but we don’t know what information is and why they need a distraction so badly when we get none for our spy missions. The Natah quest we had Teshin openly telling us that “hay this is why I am having you do this and that” vs lotus being incredibly secretive.

Lotus also has the connections to Hunhow the big bad sentient who tried to use the stalker to kill us and based on the trailer for “The new war” her “mother” is the one creating a new army. There is nothing to prove to us in the moment that she actually cares about us. During the Natah quest it’s not even implied that the sentient are attacking her, they are hunting for hunhow and trying to kill us along the way. Her response is to distance herself from us, she cuts ties without telling us what the new threat to us is.

Her mission was to kill us. Nothing works quite as well as making your enemy love you and with a void left from the loss of Margulas nothing would work better then to take her place. All of this “I wanted to be a mother” stuff could very well be just a manipulative tactic to draw on our heartstrings so we blindly fallow and trust everything she says. Without the dialog from hunhow its very likely she would have kept hidden from us that she was his daughter, and that she was sent to kill us. That is until the point where he attempts to crawl his way into her mind (The second dream) like he does with suda (octavia’s anthem) and even then she my have tried to pass it off. The only reason that it would be bennifitial to not yet kill us is because we can and do help her fight against the corpus, grineer and infested.

The grineer are clones of clones who while not genetically stable do have some orokin ties thanks to the queens. The corpus also mass produce moa weapons in combination these two forces would be some of the biggest threats to the sentients should they attack. Failing that the infested is literally a separate biological organism that essential takes over a host body. While we aren’t effected (due to the warframes being made of a different strain of the stuff) it isn’t to say that the sentient couldn’t be effected by them. So with that in mind we would make an excellent weapon (being the ones who killed the orokin) to quell these forces, weaken their numbers and cause discourse and chaos so they would never truly be strong enough to fight back against the sentient. If all 3 factions were destroyed I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s when lotus would turn and flat out kill us banking on the trust and love we have to our “mother”.

Tacitly speaking it is an incredible plan and very practical. Lotus is meant to be this tactical genius even in our eyes so the idea that she IS a bad guy isn’t that far of a stretch. Hell if you played the bioshock games this shouldn’t seam too far out of the way. (I mention this as DE worked on the bioshock 2.)

Now the thing is lotus plays on our emotions and I can’t tell you how to feel but from a tactical standpoint I can see her being the bad guy and I am ready for her to be. I don’t see the “loving mother figure” that a lot of other players see I see a manipulative machine that has told a lot of people exactly what they want to hear. I see secrets and deception and us not getting the full story.

So if not trusting someone who has lied to us and kept things hidden from us makes me an acolyte then so be it.

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53 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

She has made lotus around this ideal image we have of Margulas using our memories of this shinning figure in our time of darkness to use us ,as stated in the Chains of Harrow Quest, the same way Ballas said she manipulated him during the Chimera prolog.

Do you even realise how much of the alleged betrayal you are creating in your own head? 

No?  

Ok, how about if I just point out that that you skipped over what you just quoted and ended up with the wrong conclusion? 

53 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

So if not trusting someone who has lied to us and kept things hidden from us makes me an acolyte then so be it.

Can you check over the last paragraph of what you quoted? I flat out said that I would rather align myself with the Stalker than join a group who are willing to betray the person who has protected them for so long, even from her own family. 

But hey, you keep on keeping on by being that sort of person. 

 

All I'm saying is that it would be nice if you didn't just go around with the mental acrobatics required to be fully inventing motives for someone else's actions, but you gotta do what you do. 

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22 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Do you even realise how much of the alleged betrayal you are creating in your own head? 

No?  

Ok, how about if I just point out that that you skipped over what you just quoted and ended up with the wrong conclusion? 

Mind providing some counter points rather then just making blanket statements? I'm curious as to why you so strongly feel she hasn't betrayed the player or used them? If you are of the belife she is a good guy then that's why I would just like to know more in-depth as to why that is.

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30 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

Mind providing some counter points rather then just making blanket statements? I'm curious as to why you so strongly feel she hasn't betrayed the player or used them? If you are of the belife she is a good guy then that's why I would just like to know more in-depth as to why that is.

Well the proof that you didn't bother to pay attention to what was right there quoted in your own post while you were writing it was a fairly solid counter if you ask me. 

And the rest of the counter point you're asking for is in the paragraph just above it: she protected us for centuries, even from her own family. 

Instead of inventing sinister motives for not telling you about what's in files that haven't been analysed yet, perhaps you could figure why someone would have done that, when betrayal would have been so much easier while you were a sitting duck in a cryopod?

If she'd wanted us dead, it would have happened centuries ago. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Well the proof that you didn't bother to pay attention to what was right there quoted in your own post while you were writing it was a fairly solid counter if you ask me. 

And the rest of the counter point you're asking for is in the paragraph just above it: she protected us for centuries, even from her own family. 

Instead of inventing sinister motives for not telling you about what's in files that haven't been analysed yet, perhaps you could figure why someone would have done that, when betrayal would have been so much easier while you were a sitting duck in a cryopod?

If she'd wanted us dead, it would have happened centuries ago. 

So your arguement is "if she wanted us dead she could have done it already".

You'd forgo the entire argument of using the easily minipulated tenno as weapons against other factions who would be the next targets, as the goal is to reclaim the origin system, because killing us would have been easier?

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48 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

So your arguement is "if she wanted us dead she could have done it already".

You'd forgo the entire argument of using the easily minipulated tenno as weapons against other factions who would be the next targets, as the goal is to reclaim the origin system, because killing us would have been easier?

None of that would have required hiding us in the void so we would be safe from the sentients. And it would have just been a whole lot easier to wipe them out if we continued to act as murderers, instead of going into centuries of cryosleep. 

So your added layers of intrigue, don't make a lick of sense when considered dispassionately. 

Do you want to try again? 

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16 hours ago, (PS4)gamerpie12 said:

Vay Hek: that actually made me laugh a little, because I had the sudden mental image of the tenno hijacking a formorian and leaving a sticky note saying "we swear we're only borrowing it".

Couldn't have imagined it better.

"We'd like to thank everyone for their volunteered contributions"

*A loud angry Hek in the distance*

"WHAAAAAAAAAAT."

Edited by Beartornado
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35 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

None of that would have required hiding us in the void so we would be safe from the sentients. And it would have just been a whole lot easier to wipe them out if we continued to act as murderers, instead of going into centuries of cryosleep. 

So your added layers of intrigue, don't make a lick of sense when considered dispassionately. 

Do you want to try again? 

There is nothing to imply that outside of ending the Orokin the tenno were inclined to act as murders. They were pointed at a target by the orokin and they attacked, when the orokin killed Margulas the tenno revolted and killed the orokin. Until lotus came along there is nothing to suggest they would have gone on to kill the grineer, corpus or anyone else without her direction. Lotus points the tenno at a target and they do as told.We are treated as soldiers and weapons not as people. You don't even get a name, you get a tittle - Tenno. It would be like if we only ever called Teshin as Dax.

No nick name for your charater, nothing to even imply she has any attachment. Other NPC's call your characters quirky nick names to show they take you as an individual. Ordis calls you operator and "my operator", baro can refure to you as "golden warrior", darvo calls you "hero" after getting clem and will refur to you as "friend" at random. The people of Cetus call you "offworlder" and fortuna call you "outworlder". Eudico even calls you "sparky" at times. Nothing from Lotus.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

So your arguement is "if she wanted us dead she could have done it already".

You'd forgo the entire argument of using the easily minipulated tenno as weapons against other factions who would be the next targets, as the goal is to reclaim the origin system, because killing us would have been easier?

What other factions?
At the time we went to sleep everything was in anarchy. The Grineer were little more than a light rebellion - most weren't even at the level of intelligence they are today, and were equipped with mining tools or basic weaponry. The Corpus didn't even exist, and the Infested had retreated and gone into hibernation. Even today mere Sentient scouts can dominate a Grineer base, so after the fall of the Orokin it was basically free real estate.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

There is nothing to imply that outside of ending the Orokin the tenno were inclined to act as murders. 

I'm so very glad to hear that. It suggests that the Lotus wasn't as insidious and manipulative, as you previously suggested. 

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

They were pointed at a target by the orokin and they attacked, when the orokin killed Margulas the tenno revolted and killed the orokin. Until lotus came along there is nothing to suggest they would have gone on to kill the grineer, corpus or anyone else without her direction. 

Like I said, I believe that you didn't pay enough attention to what was going on:

Spoiler

 

Sentient: Natah, why did you betray me? Why did you not finish the sequence you started? Why did you stop at the last?

(aftermath) 

Lotus: There are gaps. I had my mission and I completed it. All but the last sequence.

Teshin: To destroy the Tenno.

Lotus: The war was over. So I hid them away in the second dream. I could not destroy them.

Teshin: And yet you were born to. So tell me... What made you stop? To reject your nature?

Lotus: All missions to the Origin system required a sacrifice. Me and my kind become barren when crossing the gap. It is the one flaw that we never overcame.

Teshin: Natah wanted children of her own.

Lotus: Natah was the daughter until I destroyed her. Now I am the Lotus. Now I am the mother

 

The Lotus had a direct part to play in the final act of the old war. She was supposed to destroy us afterwards. Instead, she protected us, despite knowing that she was going against her family and kind, to do so. And please recall that we defeated the Sentients and the Orokin at the height of their power. Do you really think that a few Grineer wielding primitive weapons, or dirty scrabbling Corpus longing for their lost past, would have been able to slow us down if the Lotus had wanted them wiped out as you suggested? That's a joke. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

You don't even get a name, you get a tittle - Tenno. It would be like if we only ever called Teshin as Dax.

This is who we are. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

No nick name for your charater, nothing to even imply she has any attachment. Other NPC's call your characters quirky nick names to show they take you as an individual. Ordis calls you operator and "my operator", baro can refure to you as "golden warrior", darvo calls you "hero" after getting clem and will refur to you as "friend" at random. The people of Cetus call you "offworlder" and fortuna call you "outworlder". Eudico even calls you "sparky" at times. Nothing from Lotus.

Oh my, how very sinister. Clearly that's why she saved our bacon from the fire for so many centuries, it was so she could not nickname us something. So horrible, a fate worse than death. /s

You know that there are about 40 million of us? You want individual nicknames or will a common one do? Because that word "Tenno", is itself a nickname for us based on the name of the ship. 

Keep your nicknames, give me the person who forsake everything to protect us, when she had every reason to destroy all of us and everything we knew. 

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16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'm so very glad to hear that. It suggests that the Lotus wasn't as insidious and manipulative, as you previously suggested. we knew. 

If we had no inclination to act as murders and the first and only thing we do upon waking up is go out and kill people because lotus tells us to how is that not being manipulated? After escaping from Vor we have no reason (outside of that's how the game plays) to continue doing what she says, and killing people.

16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Like I said, I believe that you didn't pay enough attention to what was going on:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Sentient: Natah, why did you betray me? Why did you not finish the sequence you started? Why did you stop at the last?

(aftermath) 

Lotus: There are gaps. I had my mission and I completed it. All but the last sequence.

Teshin: To destroy the Tenno.

Lotus: The war was over. So I hid them away in the second dream. I could not destroy them.

Teshin: And yet you were born to. So tell me... What made you stop? To reject your nature?

Lotus: All missions to the Origin system required a sacrifice. Me and my kind become barren when crossing the gap. It is the one flaw that we never overcame.

Teshin: Natah wanted children of her own.

Lotus: Natah was the daughter until I destroyed her. Now I am the Lotus. Now I am the mother

 

The Lotus had a direct part to play in the final act of the old war. She was supposed to destroy us afterwards. Instead, she protected us, despite knowing that she was going against her family and kind, to do so. And please recall that we defeated the Sentients and the Orokin at the height of their power. Do you really think that a few Grineer wielding primitive weapons, or dirty scrabbling Corpus longing for their lost past, would have been able to slow us down if the Lotus had wanted them wiped out as you suggested? That's a joke. 

And what part did she play? The Tenno killed all the Sentients, then they turned on the Orokin because of how they Orokin killed Margulas. We know Ballas had a hand in the fall of the Orokin, and we even know Ballas was aware of us being in the reservoir as its implied that that's where they were held during the events of the war.

Spoiler
  • "Distorted by vague horrors, we kept the Zariman survivors within a secret Reservoir. They were the missing half. Transference-linked: the Warframes, the body - and they, the mind. I give you the coordinates and codes to this place, but Do Not underestimate these devils, Hunhow. They did what we could not. We had created monsters that we couldn't--"... "--We had created monsters we couldn't control. We drugged them, tortured them, eviscerated them... we brutalized their minds, but it did not work. Until they came. And it was not their force of will, not their Void devilry, not their alien darkness... it was something else. It was that somehow, from within the derelict-horror, they had learned a way to see inside an ugly broken thing...and take away its pain."
16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

You know that there are about 40 million of us? You want individual nicknames or will a common one do? Because that word "Tenno", is itself a nickname for us based on the name of the ship. 

The only thing she did was hide away Lua, which is also where she was hiding. With how we blast threw Sentients at the end of "The second dream" with only part of our powers restored if she was the only sentient left, then her popping into a room full of Tenno and trying to kill them one after another would not have ended in her favor esp as "there are about 40 million of us". However turning them into your own personal army and keeping them close to defend you would be a benefit.

16 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Keep your nicknames, give me the person who forsake everything to protect us, when she had every reason to destroy all of us and everything we knew. 

If you want to believe that then that's on you. Go ahead and think she crossed the Sentient and won't cross you. 

Not all everyone see's it that way, just as not everyone see's her as a bad guy. This is literal why I said it was going to be a split.

Spoiler
On ‎17‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:40 PM, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

 I imagine this as introducing an option to remove or keep lotus would split players.

 

19 hours ago, Loza03 said:

What other factions?
At the time we went to sleep everything was in anarchy. The Grineer were little more than a light rebellion - most weren't even at the level of intelligence they are today, and were equipped with mining tools or basic weaponry. The Corpus didn't even exist, and the Infested had retreated and gone into hibernation. Even today mere Sentient scouts can dominate a Grineer base, so after the fall of the Orokin it was basically free real estate.

We have no real timeline of events before we woke up. There is nothing to say that the two factions we know didn't exist and were not as developed as we know them to be. The grineer were a minor military faction and industrial workers to the Orokin. There is nothing to say the Grineer's intelligence isn't on par with where they are at currently, only that they were genetically engineered to be slaves. With the Orokin gone and the twin queens amassing their own fallowing the could very well have been considered the new contenders for power. As we know the twin queens were Orokin who transferred their consciousness threw a process similar to transference known as Continuity, the elder seams to be esp fond of the process.

We don't know much about how the corpus came to be outside of them being individuals who worshiped wealth and grew at a rapid rate that Ballas felt was worth watching.

We know the Orokin ruled over the "lesser races" and that's about all we get for any other group.

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34 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

If we had no inclination to act as murders and the first and only thing we do upon waking up is go out and kill people because lotus tells us to how is that not being manipulated? After escaping from Vor we have no reason (outside of that's how the game plays) to continue doing what she says, and killing people.

Again you're missing the fact that she's the one who helped put us into cryostasis. Why bother do that at all? Why not keep using us centuries ago?  Because we were already listening exclusively to her at the time. 

And we wouldn't have made for a very effective army while in cryosleep, now would we? We also wouldn't have been killing the other factions during that time.

 

So every step of the way, your theory is clearly illogical, and so far your propositions are highly self-contradictory. 

34 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

If you want to believe that then that's on you. Go ahead and think she crossed the Sentient and won't cross you. 

Not all everyone see's it that way, just as not everyone see's her as a bad guy. This is literal why I said it was going to be a split.

I know, and it's also clear to me that there are a lot of people who have not paid any attention to what they have seen and heard and make up their minds based only on confusion and emotion. 

 

Nobody can stop them from believing whatever they want to, because if it were possible, then they might not have ended up with the wrong idea in the first place. 

34 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

We have no real timeline of events before we woke up. There is nothing to say that the two factions we know didn't exist and were not as developed as we know them to be. 

😧

You've not actually read much of the lore, have you? Please do. I suggest starting with a visit to Simaris. You may find quite a lot of what you missed, explained. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So every step of the way, your theory is clearly illogical, and so far your propositions are highly self-contradictory. 

Please explain using evidence what part of my conclusions are illogical. You really haven't provided any counter points except the singular dialogue with Teshin and Natah in which he comes to the conclusion she wanted children and she agrees.

15 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Again you're missing the fact that she's the one who helped put us into cryostasis. Why bother do that at all? Why not keep using us centuries ago?  Because we were already listening exclusively to her at the time. 

And we wouldn't have made for a very effective army while in cryosleep, now would we? We also wouldn't have been killing the other factions during that time

That is the question isn't it? What purpose does the Cryostasis even serve? We come out of it and we certainly seam to have forget about a lot of our abilities, we forget about our parents and about the time before. If all lotus wanted to do was be a mother then what purpose does it serve to have us forget everything? 

However if you could induce a mental condition called “transference” where in an individual expresses their desires onto another person it could be highly beneficial to the lotus. In the case of the lotus if Maternal transference occurs when an individual treats another person as a mother or idealized mother figure. This person is often viewed as loving and influential, and nurture and comfort is often expected from them. Then loyalty would be assured in much the same way the twin queens genetically engineer the grineer to be loyal to them.

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/transference

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You've not actually read much of the lore, have you? Please do. I suggest starting with a visit to Simaris. You may find quite a lot of what you missed, explained. 

I've read quite a bit of it and have played for a fair amount of time. What part of Simaris might you be talking about, the synthesis scans? What part of your argument are you trying to defend with them? 

The Santuary website? It hasn't been updated in quite a long time as last I was aware had no further information on anything past Chroma.

9 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So every step of the way, your theory is clearly illogical, and so far your propositions are highly self-contradictory. 

I know, and it's also clear to me that there are a lot of people who have not paid any attention to what they have seen and heard and make up their minds based only on confusion and emotion. 

Nobody can stop them from believing whatever they want to, because if it were possible, then they might not have ended up with the wrong idea in the first place. 

The same could be said about your own conclusions. Please prove to me the lotus is a good guy site evidence, give quotes and points in quest lines. Aside from the single Teshin and Natah dialogue you haven't really pointed to anything. You entire argument seams to revolve around different aways of saying "I don't agree with that" and "/s".

You quoted me at the start of this so please explain to me why you are set on beliving she is our ally and why you want to see her defended so?

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34 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

That is the question isn't it? What purpose does the Cryostasis even serve? We come out of it and we certainly seam to have forget about a lot of our abilities, we forget about our parents and about the time before. If all lotus wanted to do was be a mother then what purpose does it serve to have us forget everything? 

Again, a lot of the things that you are raising as proof of her conspiracy, is nothing of the sort. Multiple parts of what you mentioned there are known to have been done by Margulis prior to the Lotus becoming a factor. 

Seriously, if you intend to poke holes in the lore, wouldn't it be better to actually know the lore? 

39 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

However if you could induce a mental condition called “transference” where in an individual expresses their desires onto another person it could be highly beneficial to the lotus. In the case of the lotus if Maternal transference occurs when an individual treats another person as a mother or idealized mother figure. This person is often viewed as loving and influential, and nurture and comfort is often expected from them. Then loyalty would be assured in much the same way the twin queens genetically engineer the grineer to be loyal to them.

You forget who you are dealing with, we literally hunted down our parents. Also, you keep ignoring the fact that the Lotus acted to protect us for centuries, and saved us when she shouldn't have. Recall also that transference works both ways. We became the surrogate children she could never have. We brought out her full maternal instincts. 

 

46 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

The same could be said about your own conclusions. Please prove to me the lotus is a good guy site evidence, give quotes and points in quest lines. Aside from the single Teshin and Natah dialogue you haven't really pointed to anything. You entire argument seams to revolve around different aways of saying "I don't agree with that" and "/s".

Yes you could say that, but it would require you to ignore half the lore in the game, construct ever more complex scenarios where something improbable could be ever so slightly possible and insist that it is true. 

 

I have already cited several parts of the game lore, directed you to visit Simaris and read the lore that shows the state of the other factions immediately after the slaughter of the Orokin, and showed where Natah's own "flesh and blood" let us know that she betrayed them by not destroying us when she had her chance centuries ago and should have done it. 

I understand that you are not inclined to doing your own homework, and may have already ignored or forgotten what you have seen. But that's on you, and like I said, if you want to argue lore, then it's up to you to actually know what you are on about. The instant you show you don't know how weak the other factions were, or how we lost our void powers, you show that you really don't know enough to make a solid case. 

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