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An idea to prevent one shots/instant deaths


RobRalneR
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Most of you have experienced this. Getting instantly killed in high-level content is never fun. Sure, you can just grab a warframe which has high armor that can soak up a lot of damage, but every warframe has to be endgame worthy.

Having one warframe that can survive through hell without problems while having another that struggles through revives (from 4-6) seems unfair. Yes, it's a co-op game and there are healers and buffers who can help you survive longer, but what if you play solo? In my opinion, what healers and buffers do is giving them bonuses to survive better while at the same time all players are powerful enough to survive alone. I'm not saying everyone should be a tank, but there needs to be a mechanic in place that gives players a fighting chance to retreat, knowing that making the same mistake again can be fatal.

Now I know about shield gate. If DE says it's a bad idea to buff shields, I understand that. We have frames like Mag, Volt, Trinity, Harrow and many others, including Ospreys and sentinels who can charge up shields fast without problems. Adding in that, the arcanes and shield gate, and you have shields as the most powerful and broken form of protection.

So, if you ask me, how do we fix the one shot issue without shield gate?

Well, I've been playing many games and few come to mind: Shadow Warrior (2013), Dead Cells, Shadow of Mordor and Max Payne 3

So... what is the name of the mechanic and how does it work?

These games include a mechanic/skill called "Sudden Death" where if you took a heavy blow that is deadly and could kill you, you enter the undying state where you have only one chance to perform an action. Either escape, perform a QTE or kill someone. Succeed and you regain some portion of your health and the game gives you a chance to find a safe spot to heal up. Fail and you die. So let's take that idea and add it into Warframe with some changes to fit better with the game's current mechanics.

 

Say, you have 300 shields and 300 health. You get one shotted by an enemy. Normally, you would die from that but here's what would have happened instead. If you have full health or above 25% health, instead of dying you fall down but you quickly get up (Handspring animation) if you tap the Jump button (Spacebar) during the fall animation. If not, you'll get up slower. Once you get up, you're invincible for 3 seconds. This gives you the perfect time to retreat. As soon as invincibility expires, another timer will popup stating when "Sudden Death" will become available again. The timer will last 45 seconds.

What's your take on my "Sudden Death" mechanic? Feel free to discuss.

EDIT: About the invincibility and falling down part. Once you took a fatal blow, you fall down, but you get up at a normal speed. You speed it up by pressing the jump button ONCE, not dozen. You're invincible during that time and after. The timer will ONLY start ticking down after you got up.

EDIT #2: Shortened the invincibility timer to 3 seconds and increased when the "Sudden Death" will return to 60 seconds.

EDIT #3: Removed "reduce cooldown with kills" part and returned the original duration of the cooldown to 45 seconds.

Edited by RobRalneR
Removed "reduce cooldown with kills" part and returned the original duration of the cooldown to 45 seconds.
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I get what you're saying but the system you're suggesting would make every frame immortal even in Arbitrations because it isn't that difficult to rack up kills in this game.

What I would suggest is if you take a lot of damage in a short amount of time you get a damage reduction buff that lasts a couple seconds, this should give you time to escape or finish the kill. 

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

I get what you're saying but the system you're suggesting would make every frame immortal even in Arbitrations because it isn't that difficult to rack up kills in this game.

What I would suggest is if you take a lot of damage in a short amount of time you get a damage reduction buff that lasts a couple seconds, this should give you time to escape or finish the kill. 

isnt that just adaption?

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Reviving teammates and protecting teammates who revive a third guy is a part of the gameplay. There are a few warframes which have ways to avoid this part of the game, but those should stay the exception that proves the rule.

There is no need to dilute player interaction even further.

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

I get what you're saying but the system you're suggesting would make every frame immortal even in Arbitrations because it isn't that difficult to rack up kills in this game.

What I would suggest is if you take a lot of damage in a short amount of time you get a damage reduction buff that lasts a couple seconds, this should give you time to escape or finish the kill. 

For tankier frames, "Sudden Death" will never activate. You need to take godly amounts of damage from a single shot in order for it to trigger. It's designed for fragile frames who are struggling to survive.

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1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

QTEs in Warframe are somewhere between a bad and an awful idea.

It's not like a QTE where you have to press a certain random button in a short time to get up. The point of 5 seconds of invincibility brings a little challenge to the player. The timer will only start ticking down if you got up. And it's a single tap, not dozen.

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I think 5 seconds of invulnerability, even with the 45 second CD shorted by killing, is way too strong.
After all, outside of the highest levels (and even at the highest levels with the right weapon/riven/ability combo) getting 45 kills in 5 seconds isn't hard meaning that this would turn into "Never worry about death, you're completely invincible!" further within those 5 seconds that's more than enough time to drop a bunch of restores, hit maximum HP, and start rapid firing hard CC that render the entire room of enemies unable to do anything.

Maybe if it was 1 to 3 seconds and then with a CD you can't shorten it wouldn't become what is essentially a permanent invulnerability mechanic at higher levels.

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I think the concept is actually good, but with more reasonable parameters probably. 

  • I think the QTE should only trigger if one-shot while over 50% health. Anything less than that just moves too close to normal death range in higher level content with harder enemy types. It would start to trivialize those harder enemies.
  • Cooldown timer should not be able to be reduced (except maybe with a Warframe mod, having to give up a slot). As people have mentioned, killing is the purpose of the game. Any damage base frame, or frame with an Arca Plasmor could easily get enough kills in a short time, and the higher you make that required number the more it just skews to the benefit of room wipe frames.
  • 3 seconds of invulnerability should be ok (it seems like it was 5 seconds before but you've already fixed that).
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Warframe should institute a health gating type system like games like Borderlands have. It works perfectly in that game, you take just enough damage that would normally kill you, but your left with a little health and shield instead, and a brief second of invulnerability so you can make a quick decision as to what to do. 

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I think it might be interesting to fully replace revives with a second-wind type mechanic (teammates can still pick you up, though).

The idea being that it is very hard to actually put a Warframe down, but once you go down you are DOWN.

This would still simulate the 4-revive type system with progressively shorter/tougher recovery times, but IMO it would fit the power fantasy better than getting killed repeatedly.

We can squabble all day about the exact balance (grace periods, thresholds, etc.) but it should be feasible and would be more interesting than crawling around on your butt waiting for teammates to come help you.

It would also be more directly compatible with playing solo.

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1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I think it might be interesting to fully replace revives with a second-wind type mechanic (teammates can still pick you up, though).

The idea being that it is very hard to actually put a Warframe down, but once you go down you are DOWN.

This would still simulate the 4-revive type system with progressively shorter/tougher recovery times, but IMO it would fit the power fantasy better than getting killed repeatedly.

Borderlands 2 anyone?

Not sure if anyone else here has played it, but it has alot of mechanics games like warframe could benefit from

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23 minutes ago, Vanilla_nuka said:

Borderlands 2 anyone?

Not sure if anyone else here has played it, but it has alot of mechanics games like warframe could benefit from

Yeah, similar to Borderlands 2, though I was thinking of not actually restricting movement to a crawl.

Warframes might get a thematic second-wind when appropriate (e.g., some sort of phoenix motif for Ember, necromancy ritual for Nekros, etc.) or a controllable feral state (inspired by Rhino Prime Codex lore) if there's nothing thematic to use.

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7 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I think 5 seconds of invulnerability, even with the 45 second CD shorted by killing, is way too strong.
After all, outside of the highest levels (and even at the highest levels with the right weapon/riven/ability combo) getting 45 kills in 5 seconds isn't hard meaning that this would turn into "Never worry about death, you're completely invincible!" further within those 5 seconds that's more than enough time to drop a bunch of restores, hit maximum HP, and start rapid firing hard CC that render the entire room of enemies unable to do anything.

Maybe if it was 1 to 3 seconds and then with a CD you can't shorten it wouldn't become what is essentially a permanent invulnerability mechanic at higher levels.

I see. Shortening the invincibility timer will provide a bigger challenge for the player. Editing that now.

As for Cooldown, I thought of that idea since the primary focus of the game is to kill mobs of enemies and adding the cooldown shortage would provide some source of survival.

You see, tankier warframes don't need it. Fragile ones however are not the same as tanky ones, cause I've had numerous occasions where whenever I played a warframe such as Banshee, she gets one shotted. If it was Arbitrations, I'll never use her again on that gamemode which limits the choice of bringing your favorite frames to a mission you want to play. That's why I had this system in mind, to make her last just as long as tankier ones.

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9 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

isnt that just adaption?

Adaptation is garbage, I use it on frames like Limbo and fkin Valkyr but I can't feel any damage reduction on it. What I'm suggesting is more like Trinity's 4 

9 hours ago, RobRalneR said:

For tankier frames, "Sudden Death" will never activate. You need to take godly amounts of damage from a single shot in order for it to trigger. It's designed for fragile frames who are struggling to survive.

Not really, even frames like Nidus and Inaros can get melted specially in high level corpus missions

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Shield gate or something similar is really needed, cuz atm for many frames the only solution to survive in high levels, is having the reflexes to switch to operator, go into void and wait for the frame's shield to recharge, but this is a lame strategy if you ask me. Mostly cuz when you are using the operator, the enemies completely ignore the warframe, like it's just a statue meant for decoration.

 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

Adaptation is garbage, I use it on frames like Limbo and fkin Valkyr but I can't feel any damage reduction on it. What I'm suggesting is more like Trinity's 4 

Not really, even frames like Nidus and Inaros can get melted specially in high level corpus missions

Yes, tankier frames CAN trigger "Sudden Death", but only if their health is low enough for them to be one shotted. When you constantly get hit from automatic weapons, your health slowly drains and will not trigger it.

For example: Inaros has 3000 health left. Enemies deal 80 damage to him per shot. "Sudden Death" will not activate because the damage isn't high enough to trigger it. But, if he gets hit by a sniper or an enemy that does a powerful melee attack that drains his entire health, then yes, "Sudden Death" will trigger.

For Nidus, he has a passive called "Undying". If he gets one shotted, "Sudden Death" will trigger but if he gets one shotted again during the 45 second period, "Undying" will trigger. If Nidus has his 3rd ability activated on an enemy, "Sudden Death" will bearly trigger because of huge damage reduction he gains, so in order for that to trigger, you have to be one shotted by an enemy that kills you with one hit regardless how much damage reduction you have.

As for Adaptation, I use it with the combination of quick shield recharge mods, high shield builds or simply with mods like Vigor or Primed Vigor. I also use arcanes like Arcane Aegis where I constantly get my shield recharged before enemies can damage my health. Of course, you have to be attacked by weaker attacks first in order to be effective, cause the one shot rule still applies if you have that mod on.

Edited by RobRalneR
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well. I see what you getting at. but I have a separate idea that is still similiar.

In short: Borderlands "fight for your life"

Explanation for those who don't know what it is: in Borderlands, whenever you hit 0 HP. you enter "fight for your live" mode. you can still fire your weapons normaly, but reload, movement speed and weapon switch speed are reduced by a lot. also you can't aim down. if you get a kill within a bleedout timer, you get revived with full shields and a bit of hp. if you trigger it again a moment later, timer will shrink. it has it's own separate cooldown to determine when to give you all the time, half the time, or even 10% of time. If the timer expires, you die. allies can revive you in this state.

Edited by RumekFuria
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I like the idea, I'm all about the dramatic dying animation and extended survivability.

Some Thoughts:

-It kinda contradicts Revives. 

-Making it a mod would probably work well as oppose to [Quick Thinking]

-That's whats bleedout is for..

-The contradiction of bleedout and Revives could confuse continuing a mission of someone's doesn't have attention to others Health/DPS.

-Enemies don't get the same luxury (Spiders maybe) (Or maybe a new Nightmare "Zombie Mode" Lol)

-Operator dash to safety then heal (might be OP, maybe not in a Defense)

-It would hinder rushing to exit on missions (which I like that Idea)

-Wouldn't work well in a Extreme Cold Environment where it depletes your Shields and Health. (Which Extreme Cold mechanic is very specific Tilesets and places)

-Wouldn't work well in Survival Mission Life Support % expire

 

Plus more I'm sure.. But I could see it as a mod instead of [Quick Thinking].. (But I'm thinking the Taxman wants his pay like [Quick Thinking])

Good Idea! @RobRalneR

 

Edited by Grimmstyler
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Ohhhhh..

The biggest complaint about this would be if someone was in the mission for the Resources and another for Endurance.. There would be conflict between the Community (Which Ive experienced a good amount a**holes in Game/Forums anyway)

In it for the Resources would be better just to restart mission for easy level pick off..

Edited by Grimmstyler
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