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Do You Really Want Balance In This Game


Fearzffs
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Hey guys, 

 

Since I am starting to get annoyed and I have free time on my hands I want to ask you this do you want real balance in this game? 

First of all what is balance. Balance means every frame / weapon / secondary weapon and so on will have pros and cons.

Which means that for example the Acrid will need to have cons compared to the Lato and you will need to decide weather the Acrid is worth to take over the Lato. Which means either you are going to nerf all secondaries to the ground or you will need to boost all secondaries to the sky. 

What about frames. It will be the same deal. You cannot have the frost snow globe. For example to be balanced in anyway it will need to have a dmg thresh hold. Which means your T3 defence mission will not be as easy which will be a good thing. Or Novas combo will do 1k dmg just like most of the ults and it will do nothing or you are going to boost all ulties to the sky and we will wipe everything with them.

 

So in terms of balance and the way things are set up right now if we get a real balance on everything things can be fun or can get worst. It can be supper interesting timing skills and thinking for days what weapon to bring and why since they all have pros and cons to it or they can all just be S#&$. It could be interesting to think how to set up your party setup since all of them will be nerfed to the ground or just don't care since all of them has been boosted to the sky. 

 

So guys do you really want balance since most of you are just whining for stuff you do not possess that is op or you are just asking stuff that you got to be boosted.

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The merits of balance depend what you're balancing against.

If you're balancing things against content that rewards skill and intelligent use of tactics (Etc..), then balance is good.

If you're balancing things against content like Endless Defense, then balance is bad.

It's not about "whining", you need to drop that, it's about wanting DE to produce the best game they can, a game that rewards player skill NOT a game that simply rewards those who have put in the most grind.


 

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weapons need to be balanced, to prevent a single setup being uber... except the starter weapons.

and primes/vandals/wraiths. they may be just SLIGHTLY more powerful/usable by shorter reload/more accuracy/larger clip etc.

there should always be tried to maintain different ways of killing efficiently, so you can choose your style. ;)

warframes on the other hand are ment to be different, since they have specialized roles.

Edited by Jhakoon
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Yes.

 

That also means toning back the powercreep, or readjusting the difficulty of the entire game.

 

The fact that literally the only way to find a challenge is deep into an endless defense mission is pretty bogus. It's not that other game modes are inherently flawed, but they are just too damn easy. Enemies die way too fast, tactics are thrown out the door for just instagibbing everything below level 80.

Edited by SanityRobot
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It is stupid to talk Balance when the game is at a stage where no one even seems to know where the standard they should balance off of is.

Most of the Frames in the game don't even have 4 perfectly useful skills yet. Balancing around a bunch of frames with lackluster skillsets is just silly. The only arguably perfect skillset in the game right now belongs to Nova - which is the communities current favorite Warframe to cry 'OP' about.

Not to mention the fact that the game is in a bizarre transitionairy period where all the weapon get situated into their roles in the game's progression.

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YES, I want balance.

 

Players speaking of balance are not speaking of balance with the current mechanics, thats the biggest argument. Zakalwe said it best. "If you're balancing things against content that rewards skill and intelligent use of tactics (Etc..), then balance is good."

 

But I also want a better balance of damage types. There is some type of player concept, where people think "balance" means making all weapons equal or even in your reference, making pros and cons that would essentially make weapons equal.

 

What balance, imo, means is more of a diverse way to maximize damage in different scenarios, without making one damage type above all. In terms of frames, thats more of a request for a better system in dueling and possible future PvP, where powers are universal in use, yet with hindrance and special caps to make better combat.

 

For example, right now, barely any of the passive skills work in frame vs frame.

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It is stupid to talk Balance when the game is at a stage where no one even seems to know where the standard they should balance off of is.

 

Sure we do.

 

I'm sure most of us have completely most of, or at least stepped foot into one of the planets.

 

Unless those hundreds of missions are just "tutorial" or "build up to something greater" (which would be ridiculous), then that is what the standard of balance should be based on. The fact that 90% of them are painfully easy, and the remainder are a specific mission type that allows infinite scaling, should be a giant red flag that something is wrong.

 

My roommate and I have talked about going through and fully unlocking every planet, then we get 2-3 missions in until we just get bored out of our minds and go back to farming endless defense and T3 towers. Hell, we were doing T2 towers with three "fresh" (level 5 frames and weapons) players a few weeks ago. The power creep is ridiculous.

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It is stupid to talk Balance when the game is at a stage where no one even seems to know where the standard they should balance off of is.

Most of the Frames in the game don't even have 4 perfectly useful skills yet. Balancing around a bunch of frames with lackluster skillsets is just silly. The only arguably perfect skillset in the game right now belongs to Nova - which is the communities current favorite Warframe to cry 'OP' about.

Not to mention the fact that the game is in a bizarre transitionairy period where all the weapon get situated into their roles in the game's progression.

 

I disagree. 

 

Balancing is a non-stop fighting against overlapping roles, powercreep, and content viability. Developer simply can't say that the game is unstable therefore we should left it as it is. With more content piling up in an alarming rate in WF, the harder it is to find balance in future update.

 

I have to say that balance is urgent matter. A standard must be made or found in order to create balance. 

 

Balancing PvE game is about creating and keeping each content's role in the game to remain unique without overlapping one another. It's also about not allowing player to win the game through single tactic over and over again (FOO strategy). Why?

 

1. Strongest point of PvE game with inventory system like WF is the fact that player must feel that each weapon fill a unique role against certain situation and worth keeping. Gear (frame and weapon) diversity will encourage player to spend money on slot, catalyst, and reactor.

 

2. Keep the game from burnout syndrome, or delay it considerably. With each frame and weapon play differently, player has to adjust loadout and strategic approach each time he/she plays the game. It promotes creativity and replayability. A concept that WF sorely lacks.-

 

3. Preventing powercreep. This is one major reason to keep the game balance since powercreep simply obliterate above mentioned reasons. Powercreep promotes certain strategy to be globally effective compared to existing strategies that older content provides. It also lower replayability of the game when other contents are considered gimmick.

- Why should I keep Hek, Sobek, Boar, and Strun when DE released Strun wraith?

- Why should I keep Volt and Ember which are extremely faction-based compared to Nova which is a lot more versatile?

 

One can argue that powercreep sells. It's short term in WF considered that everyone can get new content cooking in the foundry within low-moderate amount of boss runs. It doesn't even sell at that point if player decides to sell Ember to get Nova. No slot was sold.

Edited by neKroMancer
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Yes, i want the game to be balanced for skill, experience, tactic, patience, observing enemy patterns and countering them.

 

Why? Because diversity. Without it, players will take #1 Warframe and #1 weapons, everyone will be same as player next to him, offering less experience for players themselfs and other around them. This also connects to close to no synergy between players, which currently only exists in revive and few skills here and there.

 

What i wish for, would be less grind-progression, less numerical progression and difficulty, with switch to content, that is hard without numbers only and cheap CC thrown at players. Afterall, we are space ninjas. And ninja is not Rambo in Nanosuit v5.0 with mods hanging on pretty much everything. Will it come soon or at some point at all? Probably not.

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I disagree.

Balancing is a non-stop fighting against overlapping roles, powercreep, and content viability. Developer simply can't say that the game is unstable therefore we should left it as it is. With more content piling up in an alarming rate in WF, the harder it is to find balance in future update.

I have to say that balance is urgent matter. A standard must be made or found in order to create balance.

Balancing PvE game is about creating and keeping each content's role in the game to remain unique without overlapping one another. It's also about not allowing player to win the game through single tactic over and over again (FOO strategy). Why?

1. Strongest point of PvE game with inventory system like WF is the fact that player must feel that each weapon fill a unique role against certain situation and worth keeping. Gear (frame and weapon) diversity will encourage player to spend money on slot, catalyst, and reactor.

2. Keep the game from burnout syndrome, or delay it considerably. With each frame and weapon play differently, player has to adjust loadout and strategic approach each time he/she plays the game. It promotes creativity and replayability. A concept that WF sorely lacks.-

3. Preventing powercreep. This is one major reason to keep the game balance since powercreep simply obliterate above mentioned reasons. Powercreep promotes certain strategy to be globally effective compared to existing strategies that older content provides. It also lower replayability of the game when other contents are considered gimmick.

- Why should I keep Hek, Sobek, Boar, and Strun when DE released Strun wraith?

- Why should I keep Volt and Ember which are extremely faction-based compared to Nova which is a lot more versatile?

One can argue that powercreep sells. It's short term in WF considered that everyone can get new content cooking in the foundry within low-moderate amount of boss runs. It doesn't even sell at that point if player decides to sell Ember to get Nova. No slot was sold.

That is all fine and dandy, but can you honestly say that any of the Frames right now are in a state were they should be an example of the Standard? It is still lighting peoples brains on fire whenever I suggest that Nova is the only Frame with an ideal skillset.

And for weapons - you are probably as aware as I am that DE is currently trying to decide exactly how to tackle Weapon balance. They are currently leaning towards having clearly defined tiers of equipment.

And look how sorry the state of the three enemy factions is. The enemies we fight don't even have the ability to deal with many of the most powerful mechanics players put to use. There is nothing in the game that deal with status effects. Nothing. The single most powerful skill in the current game is arguably Molecular Prime and it is only so brutal because nothing in all of the enemy factions is capable of stopping or mitigating it. The enemies are not well equipped/varied enough yet to be any real challenge to the player. You wanna fix some of the Frame imbalances we deal with? Start fixing the gaping holes in the enemy factions.

DE needs to find out how the game is supposed to feel for the player before the balance patching and big sweeping changes will make any difference.

Sure we do.

I'm sure most of us have completely most of, or at least stepped foot into one of the planets.

Unless those hundreds of missions are just "tutorial" or "build up to something greater" (which would be ridiculous), then that is what the standard of balance should be based on. The fact that 90% of them are painfully easy, and the remainder are a specific mission type that allows infinite scaling, should be a giant red flag that something is wrong.

My roommate and I have talked about going through and fully unlocking every planet, then we get 2-3 missions in until we just get bored out of our minds and go back to farming endless defense and T3 towers. Hell, we were doing T2 towers with three "fresh" (level 5 frames and weapons) players a few weeks ago. The power creep is ridiculous.

No. No. Absolutely not. I'd flip my S#&$ if DE wanted to balance the game around how difficult the Enemy Factions are at different stages of level scaling.

They can't even heal themselves of status effects. There is nothing in any of the enemy factions that can deal with Invisibility. They don't even use elemental weaponry.

There are enormous holes in the enemy factions and what they are able to deal with.

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I believe "weapon tiers" and "what goes in comes out" are the main issues.

If you put time, resources, mastry or "chance" into what you produce that should be reflected in what comes out.

I don't think the MK1-Braton should be on par with the others as:

1 it's free

2 it's a "starter" weapon (low skill requirement)

3 it's cheap to buy/make.

 

Maybe MK1 is tier 1, Braton tier 2, Braton Vandal 2.5 or 3 and Braton Prime is Tier 3-4.

Those weapons should be balanced against other weapons in their respective tier.

 

Some weapons are (should) be better then others for the sake of progress. Hell, at first there might not be any other weapons in that tier and it will be considered OP, fine... But make it something that requires some God d**m effort/skill...you name it.

 

There is also an issue with the functions of weapons and frames as each frame can equip every weapon, and there is no "reward" for having one type of weapon/frame that is a support one. Killing stuff gives you far more exp than support skills. Non damaging skills gives no edge in leveling stuff. Getting 300/500 life shopped of by a skill makes it easier to kill stuff with weapons which result in easier leveling of them. While attackframes are generally faster as well (exception being Loki, who still has a great damage buff to melee) they can dish out more damage faster and thereby reap the rewards other frames won't even see.

*In turn they might die...but that is rarely true. 

 

I know there is more to it than this, but in gameplay that isn't "I've already finished everything and I currently playing t3 def/high level def" all frames are are a bit to "viable" and doesn't require the teamwork in other ways then - oh snap, I was to rambo...revive me bro.

When was the latest time you failed a mission and though...well this must have been due to the Warframe I was wearing?

(finishing 5 waves of def and exiting = finishes the map)

Edited by Lactamid
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 That is all fine and dandy, but can you honestly say that any of the Frames right now are in a state were they should be an example of the Standard? It is still lighting peoples brains on fire whenever I suggest that Nova is the only Frame with an ideal skillset.

 

Yes.

 

Mostly the frames more geared towards CC and utility rather than "OMG THE WORLD IS (BURNING/FREEZING/BEING SHOCKED/BEING POISONED)". I think with the current game mechanics, pure damage abilities just don't really fit into the game that much. They will either be too strong, or too weak.

 

Compare, for instance, Bastille to Chaos. There's a lot of factors and intricacies that are just hard to compare. Bastille has a limit, but Chaos can't be recast on demand. Bastille completely disables enemies, while Chaos causes them to damage each other while also being able to damage your allies.

 

Then you have things like Overload and Miasma. Both just do flat damage. Miasma does more since it isn't affected by armor...and that's about that. The game needs more abilities that serve a purpose other than just pure damage, as there will always be an ability that does more damage than another...unless they all just do the same amount of damage in which case, why have more than one frame?

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Yes.

 

Mostly the frames more geared towards CC and utility rather than "OMG THE WORLD IS (BURNING/FREEZING/BEING SHOCKED/BEING POISONED)". I think with the current game mechanics, pure damage abilities just don't really fit into the game that much. They will either be too strong, or too weak.

 

Compare, for instance, Bastille to Chaos. There's a lot of factors and intricacies that are just hard to compare. Bastille has a limit, but Chaos can't be recast on demand. Bastille completely disables enemies, while Chaos causes them to damage each other while also being able to damage your allies.

 

Then you have things like Overload and Miasma. Both just do flat damage. Miasma does more since it isn't affected by armor...and that's about that. The game needs more abilities that serve a purpose other than just pure damage, as there will always be an ability that does more damage than another...unless they all just do the same amount of damage in which case, why have more than one frame?

 

 Cherry picking noteworthy skills isn't good enough. Look at the frames you mentioned as a whole. Can you really say they stand out? That they are ready to be considering that 'well balanced' ideal? I feel like having a useless or particularly weak skill practically voids the frame. You can't say a Frame is ideal while it still needs attention.

 

 Not all of Nyx's skills are worthwhile, Psychic Daggers only 'kinda' do their job and Mind Control is kinda redundant considering Chaos. Saryn's Contagion is lackluster as hell.

 

 At least Vauban's worst skill is Bounce - which makes up for its impracticality by being fun once in a while or saving you some time.

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 Cherry picking noteworthy skills isn't good enough. Look at the frames you mentioned as a whole. Can you really say they stand out? That they are ready to be considering that 'well balanced' ideal? I feel like having a useless or particularly weak skill practically voids the frame. You can't say a Frame is ideal while it still needs attention.

 

 Not all of Nyx's skills are worthwhile, Psychic Daggers only 'kinda' do their job and Mind Control is kinda redundant considering Chaos. Saryn's Contagion is lackluster as hell.

 

 At least Vauban's worst skill is Bounce - which makes up for its impracticality by being fun once in a while or saving you some time.

 

I don't think one weak skill invalidates a frame as a whole.

 

Nyx is very strong as a whole. Mind Control helps fill gaps in Chaos...it also serves a minor role to extend a defense wave to collect loot or whatnot. When there's those one or two enemies on one side of a map that just won't die with Chaos on them, Mind Control is invaluable at helping stem the tide on the other side. It also serves as a much cheaper alternative in smaller fights.

 

Yes, it would be nice if Psychic Bolts did something...but then again, we are back at the "pure damage" abilities. Abilities that offer nothing besides damage will either be overpowered or barely worth using. It makes comparison to other pure damage abilities, and even weapons, easy. They either diminish depth and become a "spam as often as possible" ability, or don't add to depth because they aren't worth using. There's essentially no middle ground. That's why there was such an outrage about Ember's Overheat nerf. That was the only thing the frame had that wasn't a pure damage ability.

 

But yes, your question of "are there any frames that you feel are balanced", I feel both Nyx and Vauban are pretty well balanced. I'd also probably include Rhino in that list, as most of his abilities are worthwhile.

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I don't think one weak skill invalidates a frame as a whole.

 

Nyx is very strong as a whole. Mind Control helps fill gaps in Chaos...it also serves a minor role to extend a defense wave to collect loot or whatnot. When there's those one or two enemies on one side of a map that just won't die with Chaos on them, Mind Control is invaluable at helping stem the tide on the other side. It also serves as a much cheaper alternative in smaller fights.

 

Yes, it would be nice if Psychic Bolts did something...but then again, we are back at the "pure damage" abilities. Abilities that offer nothing besides damage will either be overpowered or barely worth using. It makes comparison to other pure damage abilities, and even weapons, easy. They either diminish depth and become a "spam as often as possible" ability, or don't add to depth because they aren't worth using. There's essentially no middle ground. That's why there was such an outrage about Ember's Overheat nerf. That was the only thing the frame had that wasn't a pure damage ability.

 

But yes, your question of "are there any frames that you feel are balanced", I feel both Nyx and Vauban are pretty well balanced. I'd also probably include Rhino in that list, as most of his abilities are worthwhile.

 

  See, I just don't follow that logic.

 

 A well balanced frame shouldn't have useless skills. That doesn't make sense. Calling them well balanced implies they are more or less at their ideal state. That is, at least, what it means to me.

 

 So if Nyx was truly well balanced the Psychic Bolts would be worthwhile. The fact that it is a damage ability isn't important. Same goes for any lackluster skill. What changes need to happen to make the lackluster skills in the game worthwhile don't particularly matter so long as it gets changed for the better to bring that skill up to speed and in turn heal the hole in the Frame's skillset.

 

  Rhino, Nova, Vauban, arguably Loki. These are pretty well balanced frames. Their skills are all useful for something. You could very easily find a good use for every single of of their skills during any mission you play. Sometimes you wont need them, like bounce or wormhole, but that is okay.

 

Four good skills will lead to one good frame. One well rounded, well balanced frame. Give or take some craziness here or there.

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So everything needs to be so black and white? How about Acrid is better against armored targets than Lato but Lato has better stats overall. For now Acrid would still be better but only until the damage type overhaul. Now Frost's snowglobe adds you damage immunity, why is he still balanced to compared someone like Trinity. Well because he has only a few really good abilities and a few not so good abilities, Trinity on the other hand has good abilities that are invaluable in the end, but she is no longer immune to damage from one of her powers that used to do so. Or Why Why Saryn has a very good ultimate and her venom but her other abilities lack? Now there is not a perfect balance between any of these, we all know that some things should change a bit but the point is that things don't need to be as black and white as you claim.

One can have awesome ability here and one can have multiple average abilities or one weapon can do this better than that but when they are ultimately balanced so that they can clearly compete with eachother and it is hard to tell which one really is the better option to choose from.
As of now, you can ask which one would you rather have:
- Lato or Acrid.
- Burston or Ogris/Strun Wraith.

That is a sign that balance is off but what can be done to balance things out? Buff Lato and Burston? Nerf the Acrid, Ogris, Strun Wraith or something in between? You decide. I call for something between as long as it stays balanced.

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Excalibur has rather good use of his skills.

slash dash does damage but also serves as a movement skill.
radial blind is a CC buy-time skill.

Super jump can help you reach places faster than normal (also combines well with heavy impact)
radial javelin is a circular-aoe.

 

I say rather well as radial jav is rather poor damage wise due to the way the damage is applied (horizontal)

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  Four good skills will lead to one good frame. One well rounded, well balanced frame. Give or take some craziness here or there.

 

In a vacuum, yes. Internally, four well functioning skills will make for a fun, balanced game.

 

Externally, those four, well functioning skills have to be compared to other frame's skills. That's where the breakdown generally happens.

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