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Too easy to get staggered


Otakuwolf
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As the title says

My playstyle revolves around melee for the most, but it's since some time already that i find myself getting staggered way too easily compared to the enemies. Doesen't matter what weapon i equip, doesen't matter what kind of hits i land on enemies, doesen't matter if i hit first or not, doesen't matter what the other guy does, I am the one that always gets staggered, and that's kinda BS.

Please, make some sense with these staggers/stuns, it's already ridiculous enough to see a space ninja in pain for taking a punch from a random shmucko that just took a giant sword in the face like it was nothing, let alone the frustration knowing that no matter what you do, on melee combat the other guy will always have an edge over you.

Also, i really hope this is not part of Melee 3.0, being interrupted while swinging heavy weapons is already bad enough to have made me drop those completely, i don't want to stop using melee as a whole... i get it, there are guns too, but we are space NINJAS for a reason, dammit !

Edited by Otakuwolf
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22 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Wasting a mod slot for a bandaid on a very basic feature of the game is not a proper solution 😛

I shouldn't have to compromise my build because of bad game design.

I would be fine getting staggered for being hit first, i would be fine getting staggered for taking a powerful hit, i'm fine getting staggered by a melee from Stalker (even tho, would be nice to have a chance to not be staggered at all against him as well), i would be fine getting staggered for a good reason, but being staggered for just taking a hit ? Hell no, that's just bad design, and a bandaid doesen't fix it, only hides it.

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2 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Yes you should. I don't have your issues. I suffer from knockdown and need to wait another 60 days for Primed Sure Footed. My Nekros is almost unkillable except 1 knockdown and I'm out

So, first you say "Is not my problem hence is not a problem" (which has never been a valid argument in any discussion whatsoever), then you say "My Nekros is almost unkillable" like the existence of a specific type of Warframe AND build excuses a broken mechanic, to then conclude by (maybe unwilingly) admitting the existence of a broken mechanic by stating "except 1 knockdown and i'm out".

Sorry, but no, but the existance of an "unkillable Nekros" build is not a valid excuse for enemies having such a HUDGE advantage over the player in close combat, because by that reasoning then we should all ditch every Warframe minus SOTD build Nekros (wich by your admission is also not completely immune to this), Rhino, Valkyr (to some extent), Inaros, and Nidus, just for a chance to not be killed off by the first random close combat hit we take.

I never asked to "remove" the staggers, i never said "Only the player should stagger", i only sayd "make it have some sense so we can play around with it and either be rewarded or punished accordingly not just by a mere game check".

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Melee current doesn’t have momentum. It was removed in the mainline update. This is why you’re getting knocked down so often.

Yes, i read that, but i still feel like if they removed momentum they should have also added or changed something accordingly since heavy melee swings are longer and cannot be interrupted anytime by the player like for other melee.

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1 minute ago, Otakuwolf said:

admitting the existence of a broken mechanic

I was just saying that there are ways to circumvent these problems. If they are just bugs or intended Idk and Idc. And even if these are bugs it can take ages for DE to fix them, so better try to solve this issue on your end

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1 hour ago, Otakuwolf said:

So, first you say "Is not my problem hence is not a problem" (which has never been a valid argument in any discussion whatsoever), then you say "My Nekros is almost unkillable" like the existence of a specific type of Warframe AND build excuses a broken mechanic, to then conclude by (maybe unwilingly) admitting the existence of a broken mechanic by stating "except 1 knockdown and i'm out".

Sorry, but no, but the existance of an "unkillable Nekros" build is not a valid excuse for enemies having such a HUDGE advantage over the player in close combat, because by that reasoning then we should all ditch every Warframe minus SOTD build Nekros (wich by your admission is also not completely immune to this), Rhino, Valkyr (to some extent), Inaros, and Nidus, just for a chance to not be killed off by the first random close combat hit we take.

I never asked to "remove" the staggers, i never said "Only the player should stagger", i only sayd "make it have some sense so we can play around with it and either be rewarded or punished accordingly not just by a mere game check".

Yes, i read that, but i still feel like if they removed momentum they should have also added or changed something accordingly since heavy melee swings are longer and cannot be interrupted anytime by the player like for other melee.

It’s due to melee 3.0 there’s really no point in them going back to fix a bug on something that’s being replaced.

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1 hour ago, Grimmstyler said:

Sounds like Enemy AI (Artificial intelligence) is working..

That's why you have 4 options of weapons Melee/Primary/Secondary/Warframe.

You can't win them all doing the same thing @Otakuwolf.. That's the purpose..

The issue here is not about "winning doing the same thing", is about "having the thing becoming not worth at all", and if the thing becomes worthless in comparison to other choices (which, btw, primary and secondary are the same thing from a mechanic standpoint, is callen "gunplay") then what is the point of using it ? Might as well just say "hey, Melee sucks now, just use guns and don't bother using swords anymore", which is neglectable if you just like to shoot and use powers, but otherwise is like a piece of the game is removed.

 

1 hour ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

I was just saying that there are ways to circumvent these problems. If they are just bugs or intended Idk and Idc. And even if these are bugs it can take ages for DE to fix them, so better try to solve this issue on your end

Using a bandaid is not "circumventing" the problem, that's just sweeping it under the carpet, what are you going to do when a new problem pops up ? Break your build even further just to put another mod like sure footed ? Or are you going to replace Sure footed and encounter the same problem again just to circumvent the new one ? "Resolving the issue" is the reason why i wrote about it on this forum, so the devs can at least take note and possibly balance/fix it accordingly.

Now, i know balancement and fixes take time, but if nobody reports about problems, there is no chance for time being taken in the first place

Edited by Otakuwolf
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2 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

Sounds like Enemy AI (Artificial intelligence) is working..

That's why you have 4 options of weapons Melee/Primary/Secondary/Warframe.

You can't win them all doing the same thing @Otakuwolf.. That's the purpose..

If a problem can't be solved by hitting things with your sword, then it's not worth solving.  


That said, I have the exilus mod that has a chance to prevent stagger, but it can still be annoying as hell, especially in areas of Fortuna where enemies just spam attacks that can bounce you around and that's even AFTER they were toned down.

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1 hour ago, Otakuwolf said:

The issue here is not about "winning doing the same thing", is about "having the thing becoming not worth at all", and if the thing becomes worthless in comparison to other choices (which, btw, primary and secondary are the same thing from a mechanic standpoint, is callen "gunplay") then what is the point of using it ? Might as well just say "hey, Melee sucks now, just use guns and don't bother using swords anymore", which is neglectable if you just like to shoot and use powers, but otherwise is like a piece of the game is removed.

You got me confused on what the "Thing" is. I'm guessing "Melee"?

Hmm.. There are mods that combat Knockdown and Stagger.. [Sure Footed] [Handspring] [Pain Threshold] are a couple of examples..

Other than that you would have to rely on Tactics (Using other forms of attacks)

 

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35 minutes ago, Beas7ie said:

If a problem can't be solved by hitting things with your sword, then it's not worth solving.  


That said, I have the exilus mod that has a chance to prevent stagger, but it can still be annoying as hell, especially in areas of Fortuna where enemies just spam attacks that can bounce you around and that's even AFTER they were toned down.

Sounds like you were in a good fight . 😃

What was the Threat Level or Bounty Level?

Edited by Grimmstyler
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45 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

You got me confused on what the "Thing" is. I'm guessing "Melee"?

Hmm.. There are mods that combat Knockdown and Stagger.. [Sure Footed] [Handspring] [Pain Threshold] are a couple of examples..

Other than that you would have to rely on Tactics (Using other forms of attacks)

 

I belive you didn't read my previous posts on the matter, allow me reiterate:

7 hours ago, Otakuwolf said:

Wasting a mod slot for a bandaid on a very basic feature of the game is not a proper solution 😛

I shouldn't have to compromise my build because of bad game design.

I would be fine getting staggered for being hit first, i would be fine getting staggered for taking a powerful hit, i'm fine getting staggered by a melee from Stalker (even tho, would be nice to have a chance to not be staggered at all against him as well), i would be fine getting staggered for a good reason, but being staggered for just taking a hit ? Hell no, that's just bad design, and a bandaid doesen't fix it, only hides it.

2 hours ago, Otakuwolf said:

Using a bandaid is not "circumventing" the problem, that's just sweeping it under the carpet, what are you going to do when a new problem pops up ? Break your build even further just to put another mod like sure footed ? Or are you going to replace Sure footed and encounter the same problem again just to circumvent the new one ?

 

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20 minutes ago, Otakuwolf said:

I belive you didn't read my previous posts on the matter, allow me reiterate:

 

 I did read it before your post.

And I agree. I don't want to sacrafice mod slots either.. Or change build all the time.

I accept it because it's the challenge of difficulty and adjust my Warframes and Weapons knowing what I'm getting into.

Everything in Warframe is situational specific (Enemy/Tileset/Level) which can be annoying in Endurance Runs with unhelpful mods. 

For Example, Boltor Prime and Telos Boltor are the same weapon but different stats. 1 is going to be better than the other in specific situations.

It's like that all throughout Warframe..

Edited by Grimmstyler
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7 minutes ago, Grimmstyler said:

 I did read it before your post.

And I agree. I don't want to sacrafice mod slots either.. Or change build all the time.

I accept it because it's the challenge of difficulty and adjust my Warframes and Weapons knowing what I'm getting into.

Everything in Warframe is situational specific (Enemy/Tileset/Level) which can be annoying in Endurance Runs with unhelpful mods. 

For Example, Boltor Prime and Telos Boltor are the same weapon but different stats. 1 is going to be better than the other in specific situations.

It's like that all throughout Warframe..

There is no challenge about not being able to use a game mechanic at all.

By that logic at this point we should all just ditch melee because is getting more and more risky but also lesser and lesser rewarding to use since, apparently, super space ninjas can't even resist a punch from a random shmucko that is not even their same size but can endure a giant sword in the face.

You can't really compare weapons with game mechanics, are two completely different entities.

Again, i'm not expecting to melee everything in the game, but at least to do so to anything that is not a boss or mini-boss without the risk of getting staggered by a puny punch Vs a sword, a mace, or whatever, and THAT is the problem.

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16 minutes ago, Otakuwolf said:

There is no challenge about not being able to use a game mechanic at all.

By that logic at this point we should all just ditch melee because is getting more and more risky but also lesser and lesser rewarding to use since, apparently, super space ninjas can't even resist a punch from a random shmucko that is not even their same size but can endure a giant sword in the face.

You can't really compare weapons with game mechanics, are two completely different entities.

Again, i'm not expecting to melee everything in the game, but at least to do so to anything that is not a boss or mini-boss without the risk of getting staggered by a puny punch Vs a sword, a mace, or whatever, and THAT is the problem.

Oh..

So your basically saying Tenno attacks should interrupt any Factions ability use, like a staggering ground pumch?

 

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8 hours ago, Grimmstyler said:

Oh..

So your basically saying Tenno attacks should interrupt any Factions ability use, like a staggering ground pumch?

 

You are not even reading my posts, i'm done trying to repeat myself, read above where i said:

13 hours ago, Otakuwolf said:

I never asked to "remove" the staggers, i never said "Only the player should stagger", i only sayd "make it have some sense so we can play around with it and either be rewarded or punished accordingly not just by a mere game check".

And just everything else i said already.

If you keep not understanding it (or don't want to understand), i'm sorry, but i'm done repeating and requoting myself to somebody that clearly doesen't care.

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there is only 1 enemy i truly hate as far as staggering goes and thats grineer roller balls. numerous times i had one just casually graze my foot and it staggered me. i can understand them staggering when they do their little charging hop attack into me...thats their purpose and it makes sense. But just walking into one that is just moving about at roomba level speeds and getting staggered does not.

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Let's just think a little bit more about equipping a band-aid mod for every design problem in the game: staggers are bad and can get the player killed when enemy damage is high, as it completely removes control, so let's equip Pain Threshold to mitigate the problem (but not eliminate them). It only takes one mod slot, so that's not so bad! But then the game's also full of knockdowns, which are just as bad, and Pain Threshold doesn't cover that. But that's okay, because there's this mod called Handspring! Now, you're using two mod slots just to lessen the effects of two different crowd control types that are both actively detrimental to good gameplay. Doesn't it feel great to be presented with the choice between lessening one's own build options, or suffering the full effects of poor enemy design? /s

But seriously, though, "just use this band-aid" never has and never will be a valid response to a core design problem. Putting aside how easily this can turn into a slippery slope, as there are a great many dysfunctions in the game with many accompanying band-aids, to the point where one cannot realistically cover them all, the basic question one should ask here is: why should equipping band-aids be a part of gameplay? Why not simply address the problem at the root? This is the reason why self-damage on explosives is still a problem, even though there is a direct band-aid mod to "address" the issue (spoiler alert: it doesn't). If excessive amounts of staggers, knockdowns, or other forms of hard control are actively impeding good gameplay and making for frustrating experiences, the solution should not be to expect players to equip some mod that not everyone has, just to make the unfun thing less unfun. The solution should be to look at where the problem is coming from, and address it there so that everyone can have a more fun experience, without being expected to lessen their fun by equipping a band-aid mod each time.

Personally, I think staggers and knockdowns should be removed entirely against players, and not simply reduced. In a game where the player is meant to move fluidly, feel powerful, and above all have full control over every aspect of their play, wresting control away from the player I think is antithetical to all of these principles, and in practice causes significant frustration precisely because it breaks the flow of gameplay. The fact that the sources of this kind of crowd control are often cheap and not that based on player skill (e.g. the CC spam in Profit-Taker fights) make matters even worse, because the player ends up feeling like they're having a sub-par gameplay experienced forced upon them with no real justification. For sure, if the player messes up, they should be punished with damage, maybe even a slow, but actually removing control away from the player I think should be a strict no-no in Warframe, outside of maybe some cinematic events.

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Let's just think a little bit more about equipping a band-aid mod for every design problem in the game: staggers are bad and can get the player killed when enemy damage is high, as it completely removes control, so let's equip Pain Threshold to mitigate the problem (but not eliminate them). It only takes one mod slot, so that's not so bad! But then the game's also full of knockdowns, which are just as bad, and Pain Threshold doesn't cover that. But that's okay, because there's this mod called Handspring! Now, you're using two mod slots just to lessen the effects of two different crowd control types that are both actively detrimental to good gameplay. Doesn't it feel great to be presented with the choice between lessening one's own build options, or suffering the full effects of poor enemy design? /s

But seriously, though, "just use this band-aid" never has and never will be a valid response to a core design problem. Putting aside how easily this can turn into a slippery slope, as there are a great many dysfunctions in the game with many accompanying band-aids, to the point where one cannot realistically cover them all, the basic question one should ask here is: why should equipping band-aids be a part of gameplay? Why not simply address the problem at the root? This is the reason why self-damage on explosives is still a problem, even though there is a direct band-aid mod to "address" the issue (spoiler alert: it doesn't). If excessive amounts of staggers, knockdowns, or other forms of hard control are actively impeding good gameplay and making for frustrating experiences, the solution should not be to expect players to equip some mod that not everyone has, just to make the unfun thing less unfun. The solution should be to look at where the problem is coming from, and address it there so that everyone can have a more fun experience, without being expected to lessen their fun by equipping a band-aid mod each time.

Personally, I think staggers and knockdowns should be removed entirely against players, and not simply reduced. In a game where the player is meant to move fluidly, feel powerful, and above all have full control over every aspect of their play, wresting control away from the player I think is antithetical to all of these principles, and in practice causes significant frustration precisely because it breaks the flow of gameplay. The fact that the sources of this kind of crowd control are often cheap and not that based on player skill (e.g. the CC spam in Profit-Taker fights) make matters even worse, because the player ends up feeling like they're having a sub-par gameplay experienced forced upon them with no real justification. For sure, if the player messes up, they should be punished with damage, maybe even a slow, but actually removing control away from the player I think should be a strict no-no in Warframe, outside of maybe some cinematic events.

preach-it-brother.jpg

Edited by Mach25
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