Baruuk: Almost Perfect

[TKDancer]

been playing with the paci-fist monk frame, and after getting him to rank 30 and playing some more i've only found a few issues:

1- a bug: Desolate Hands likes homing onto allies, wasting charges, also sometimes takes too long to start chasing an enemy right in front of me

2- Serene Storm struggles a TON against armor: since its a crit "melee" weapon it does pretty poorly against armored foes, even if try to stack status mods you'll barely get above 20% status chance and for that u'd sacrifice slots better spent on dmg/crit mods, and even if u try using shattering impact with attack speed mods, it just cant do the job by itself, u'll struggle even against lancers around level 100 and since this is an exalted weapon we're unable to use some of our strongest melee mods like blood rush or weeping wounds

suggestion: give Serene Storm a decent ammount of base status OR give it an innate but stronger Shattering Impact effect that STACKS with the mod itself OR make Its own hits/Lull/Desolate Hands apply a temporary armor debuff

 

edit: apparently it also gets no benefit from combo? oof

3- Serene Storm ragdolling can be extremely annoying: overall i find ragdolling effects to be quite annoying in WF as it can launch enemies in extremely unpredictable directions and when it comes to melee, outside of my range, just change it to a knockdown like blast status or greatly weaken the ragdoll push so enemies mostly just fall over

right now the ragdoll is so strong a single attack send enemies flying wayyyyyyyyyyy outside of your range

and thats pretty much it, 1 bug, problems against armor, and a nitpick

his 1st, 2nd, 3rd and passive abilities are all really nice and strong, the animations looks really solid, specially the serene storm animations, hes nicely tanky and has good CC via Null and the disarm helps a lot

Edited December 18, 2018 by TKDancer

[(PSN)supersocc11]

Doesn't serene storm have a combo that pulls enemies towards you?  That would at least help with ragdolling enemies everywhere and keeping the target in front of you for better DPS.  have you tried that? of course that would only be useful to a certain enemy level...  (I'm on console, so just basing these thoughts off of the devstream)

[TKDancer]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)supersocc11 said:

Doesn't serene storm have a combo that pulls enemies towards you? 

the block combo has an EXTREMELY weak pull, and its the only combo to have it

the pull is so weak u'll usually miss the following attacks until you physically move foward to meet the ragdolled enemy that got pulled

and that only works if you miss the 1st hit in the combo, as it can send enemies flying a good 20-30 meters away

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

preface: i know from this very post that serene storm is a crit weapon.

 

so, if it can reach 20% status, here's my question: if you were to apply all 4 duel stat mods, drifting contact, prime pressure, prime fury and finally condition overload, would this work well enough to kill high level armored targets?

 

for reference, my valkyr prime's talons are built similar to the above mentioned build

[(PSN)psycofang]

On 2018-12-18 at 3:03 PM, TKDancer said:

the block combo has an EXTREMELY weak pull, and its the only combo to have it

His jump slam + block has a strong vacuum razor like effect by comparison but spamming it isnt intuitive imo.

If they really want his 4 to stay as a crit weapon then they'd need to allow hos waves to benefit from combo counter so weeping wounds may become a thing. His waves could easily stack up numerous counters per hit to help.

[TKDancer]

4 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

His jump slam + block has a strong vacuum razor like effect by comparison but spamming it isnt intuitive imo.

If they really want his 4 to stay as a crit weapon then they'd need to allow hos waves to benefit from combo counter so weeping wounds may become a thing. His waves could easily stack up numerous counters per hit to help.

we cant even equip weeping wounds on the exalted weapon :^(

and i honestly think that even if we could a small bump in base status would still be needed, like at least 10%

another poster had the good idea of having the attacks from his 4 remove a certain% of armor with each hit, the % being affected by your restraint, which i found to be a really cool idea: the less restraint you have the more shattering your attacks are!

i STILL believe impact-like staggers and blast-like knockdown >>>>>> ragdolling that sends enemies 30 meters away

Edited December 20, 2018 by TKDancer

[Daemonjax]

Try shattering impact?  Works fine for valkyr... but her 4's slide attack hits 5 times, works as good as a sarpa for stripping that way except her 4 actually kills stuff you care about and it's easier to aim. 😉  Dunno how many hits Baruuk's ult gets -- try in simulacrum and look at combo counter to see.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Daemonjax

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, Daemonjax said:

Try shattering impact?  Works fine for valkyr... but her 4's slide attack hits 5 times, works as good as a sarpa for stripping that way except her 4 actually kills stuff too... dunno about this guy's ult.

You don't hit often enough, nor does Shattering Impact have enough effectiveness with the few hits you would get, sadly.

[NIkuno]

❤️

On 2018-12-18 at 1:24 PM, TKDancer said:

give it an innate but stronger Shattering Impact effect

I really like this idea. May give it the push that it needs for the damage side of things.

On 2018-12-18 at 1:24 PM, TKDancer said:

Desolate Hands likes homing onto allies, wasting charges

And for better or for worse, that is a "feature". Each dagger gives damage reduction, and that applies to allies as well.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Bro his desolate hands are supposed to go onto allies.  You can recast at anytime anyway.  it's not a big deal and just further helps your team.  His 4 is not about killing.  If you want that play a frame that uses a different exhalted weapon.  the fact that you're complaining about it's intended design (aka rag dolling enemies) says to me that you're making suggestions based on what you want out of him.  Not trying to improve what his kit is designed about.  You can build it for corrosive and stronk crit to do decent against armor anyway.  You just won't be chunking 80+ armored enemies quickly.  That doesn't mean it's a problem.  Also his waves don't trigger combo counter is intended.  Excal's waves don't either.  But direct hits with both of them (so excals sword and baruuk's fists) DO add to the counter.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

But direct hits with both of them (so excals sword and baruuk's fists) DO add to the counter.

Excal has the benefit of:

Faster attack speed.

Better mobility. 

Another ability that also adds to the counter. 

Greater damage.

Better damage weighting (slash) by default. 

Can you provide a source on Desert Winds intended design actually being to rag doll enemies and not to be a viable weapon please, or is that... how did you put it. "Based on what you want out of him".

Just read another post of yours.

"Baruuk is 100% fine as he is and needs no changes".

Just... what? 

Edited December 22, 2018 by DeMonkey

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

49 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Excal has the benefit of:

Faster attack speed.

Better mobility. 

Another ability that also adds to the counter. 

Greater damage.

Better damage weighting (slash) by default. 

Can you provide a source on Desert Winds intended design actually being to rag doll enemies and not to be a viable weapon please, or is that... how did you put it. "Based on what you want out of him".

Just read another post of yours.

"Baruuk is 100% fine as he is and needs no changes".

Just... what? 

Devs phrasing when talking about him.

And baruuk if he hits people with his fists disarms them.

regardless his exalted weapon does plenty damage is.  As I mentioned prior.  His 4 is capable of ohking anything sans a nox up to 60.  and trash mobs in 1-2 hits  in the 100's.  it doesn't need a damage buff.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Devs phrasing when talking about him.

I'm not sure the way they phrase things should be taken as gospel, to be completely honest, that sounds unhealthily pedantic.

If this were the other way around, and someone was complaining about something that hasn't happened yet, and the only indication it was coming came from "phrasing", would you pay it much heed?

No.

His weapon does passable damage to level 60 enemies with a niche, very high power strength build.

The CC provided by EB is better than that of Desert Wind in it's entirety.

[TKDancer]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Devs phrasing when talking about him.

Baruuk was described as a "pacifist Warframe" and "reluctant hero", someone who normally avoids combat but is extremely effective at it once pushed past his breaking point.

as in, once his restraint meter goes down, u turn on serene storm and start killing

6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And baruuk if he hits people with his fists disarms them.

thats not quite how his disarm works, u need DIRECT fist hits, waves dont count, and since u're constantly launching enemies flying, that aint happening often

6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

regardless his exalted weapon does plenty damage is.  As I mentioned prior.  His 4 is capable of ohking anything sans a nox up to 60.  and trash mobs in 1-2 hits  in the 100's.  it doesn't need a damage buff.

his 'plenty dmg' becomes neutered against high level enemy armor, specially against alloy as i imagine most people will mod his 4 for corrosive in hopes of getting a lucky corrosive status

Edited December 22, 2018 by TKDancer

[DeMonkey]

I keep reading that he's absolutely fine as he is, and honestly I have some real concerns about such comments.

He has CC!

He has tons of DR!

He can deal damage via Lull finishers!

1) Okay, so he can be built for CC? Forgetting Desert Wind which is not effective CC and is easily outclassed by the CC available in Exalted Blade, you're left with Lull and Disarms.

Lull takes a bit to get to work, and enemies that are sent to sleep are woken upon taking damage. In Warframe, that's probably almost immediately. However, in order to build for this you're going to go for range, mostly.

Building for range neuters the effectiveness of not only his fists, due to Overextended's -60% PS, but it reduces the number of daggers you have, the damage reduction they provide and causes them to fly off sooner.

Building for CC neuters his potential DR and causes him to lose said DR faster due to daggers flying off faster.

Of course, Elude works.. as long as you aren't attacking, and really, how often are you not attacking when enemies are shooting at you?

Desert Wind is obviously not a good idea with this sort of power strength.

2) Okay, so he can be built for DR?

For that you're going to focus solely on Desolate Hands, getting as much power strength as you can and as little range. This causes you to have more daggers, and it stops them flying off. Now you have decent DR assuming you don't get too close to enemies, and your fists will be dealing a bit more damage.

However now Elude is basically worthless and it's quite hard to lose restraint due to the tiny range on both Lull and Desolate hands.

But what happens when you're fighting enemies at a higher level? Desert Wind deals pathetic damage anyway, so you have to Lull enemies to sleep and use a finisher on them. This requires you to get close, and thus lose daggers and DR anyway.

Thus, using Desert Wind is... not a good idea at this point.

3) Okay, but can he be built for a mixture?

Not effectively. The more range you include, the less effective you are at taking damage unless you're able to spam Desolate Hands constantly, which is a huge energy drain at 75 energy a pop. The less range you include the less you're able to actually CC enemies, which is apparently his focus. A middling DR and a middling CC simply do not cut it for higher content.

Essentially, he does not have CC and DR, he has one or the other.

But hey, no need to worry, I got you covered. You see, there's this great frame that does almost the same thing as Baruuk, just better.

You wanna open enemies to finishers and stealth attacks with a #2 ability? Excal's got you covered, his effect doesn't wear off after a single hit and doesn't require a build up.

You want a Unique Weapon that hits enemies at range? Excal's got you covered there as well, he deals more damage, attacks faster and has better CC innate to the weapon. What's more, you get a free 60% DR to everything in front of you and significantly better base stats.

And if you want disarming as well, well I guess I could throw in this Chesa Kubrow, only £99,999, limited time offer, just for you guys.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

12 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm not sure the way they phrase things should be taken as gospel, to be completely honest, that sounds unhealthily pedantic.

If this were the other way around, and someone was complaining about something that hasn't happened yet, and the only indication it was coming came from "phrasing", would you pay it much heed?

No.

His weapon does passable damage to level 60 enemies with a niche, very high power strength build.

The CC provided by EB is better than that of Desert Wind in it's entirety.

It's semantics.  The devs bothered to give his 4 such unique ways to control enemies through cc.  This is CLEARLY a sign that he's supposed to be using his 4 to cc in end game.  Not to straight up murder everyone.  If his 4 was on par with the rest of the exhalted weapons this cc would be meaningless.  My point is he's a pacifist.  He's not a murder machine.  All of his other abilities are indirect methods of survival.  He's not directly engaging to live.  His 4 is his only direct method he uses to survive.  and he does this by shoving enemies around.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

7 hours ago, TKDancer said:

Baruuk was described as a "pacifist Warframe" and "reluctant hero", someone who normally avoids combat but is extremely effective at it once pushed past his breaking point.

as in, once his restraint meter goes down, u turn on serene storm and start killing

thats not quite how his disarm works, u need DIRECT fist hits, waves dont count, and since u're constantly launching enemies flying, that aint happening often

his 'plenty dmg' becomes neutered against high level enemy armor, specially against alloy as i imagine most people will mod his 4 for corrosive in hopes of getting a lucky corrosive status

And he is effective.  I'd say being able to OHK trash at pretty much any level and being able to pacify higher threats to the point of them not being a threat to him is plenty effective.  Just because he's not murdering high armored targets at sortie content doesn't mean there is a problem.

I swear you have reading issues.  This is the second time you're quoting me and repeating the quoted.  Re read.  "if he hits with his fists he disarms."  I didn't state the waves.  Modding for corrosive damage means he'll do better damage versus armored targets.  Status builds are impossible for his fists as they can only get to around 20% status.  If I wanted to out right kill a high armored target i'd just lull it and finisher it.  His fists remove trash and make those still alive not an immediate threat to me.

[TKDancer]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

And he is effective.  I'd say being able to OHK trash at pretty much any level and being able to pacify higher threats to the point of them not being a threat to him is plenty effective.  Just because he's not murdering high armored targets at sortie content doesn't mean there is a problem.

you actually wont OHKO armored 'trash mobs' either, a level 100 lancer has enough armor for about 85% DR

on the other hand his fists can easily kill non-armored high tier mobs without much problem

having a DPS ability suddenly drop completely in effectives just due to armor and having to way to naturally get around that armor is bad my guy

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I swear you have reading issues.  This is the second time you're quoting me and repeating the quoted.  Re read.  "if he hits with his fists he disarms."

he already has an ability dedicated to disarming and again: since ur attacks send enemies flying, u wont get those 'punch disarms' often

any random dmg will wake up Lull'd targets, be it a pet, sentinel, ally or desolate hands, baruuk cant reliably rely on finisher attacks either

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I keep reading that he's absolutely fine as he is, and honestly I have some real concerns about such comments.

He has CC!

He has tons of DR!

He can deal damage via Lull finishers!

1) Okay, so he can be built for CC? Forgetting Desert Wind which is not effective CC and is easily outclassed by the CC available in Exalted Blade, you're left with Lull and Disarms.

Lull takes a bit to get to work, and enemies that are sent to sleep are woken upon taking damage. In Warframe, that's probably almost immediately. However, in order to build for this you're going to go for range, mostly.

Building for range neuters the effectiveness of not only his fists, due to Overextended's -60% PS, but it reduces the number of daggers you have, the damage reduction they provide and causes them to fly off sooner.

Building for CC neuters his potential DR and causes him to lose said DR faster due to daggers flying off faster.

Of course, Elude works.. as long as you aren't attacking, and really, how often are you not attacking when enemies are shooting at you?

Desert Wind is obviously not a good idea with this sort of power strength.

If you're building purely for CC you don't care about having lots of daggers or anything to do with your fists.  Your 1 makes you invulnerable to everything sans AoE and knock back.  So the damage reduction from the daggers is irrelevant and your daggers will continually keep enemies disarmed.  Both it and Lull insure the field is a lot safer for your allies.  As lull slows, sleeps, stuns, resets alert status, and lingers.  Essentially CC based/passive based baruuk builds for high duration and range.  And doesn't need the damage reduction provided by either daggers or his 4.  Ah yea.  the whole "not attacking" cliche.  Your abilities sans your 4 are not attacks.  So you can freely cast them to pacify enemies and then attack safely.  Even then if you attack the time for the invinicibility to come back is less than a second.  There is no urgency for Baruuk.  So he has all the time in the world to set things up to work in his favor.

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

2) Okay, so he can be built for DR?

For that you're going to focus solely on Desolate Hands, getting as much power strength as you can and as little range. This causes you to have more daggers, and it stops them flying off. Now you have decent DR assuming you don't get too close to enemies, and your fists will be dealing a bit more damage.

However now Elude is basically worthless and it's quite hard to lose restraint due to the tiny range on both Lull and Desolate hands.

But what happens when you're fighting enemies at a higher level? Desert Wind deals pathetic damage anyway, so you have to Lull enemies to sleep and use a finisher on them. This requires you to get close, and thus lose daggers and DR anyway.

Thus, using Desert Wind is... not a good idea at this point.

The other build i'd suggest would be one focused on desert wind.  In which you'd have QT and primed flow.  Low ish duration.  high strength.  decent range.  With low duration you should be able to cast lull often.  Which lets you get into your ult faster.  As enemies only have to be effected by lull for the passive they don't need to be asleep.  And when you are in your 4 you can continue to lull and disarm in an aoe to keep the heat on you minimal whilst maintaining your 4.  Elude is really the only thing that takes a hit here since it's not high range.  But this build makes some use of DR and has qt p flow backing it up for the survivability outside his cc.  I think it's a mistake to try and look at him as a DR tank.  Rather I believe the intent is that by him having DR from his passive, daggers, and his 4 it's ensuring he always has some.  Not that he has an insane amount.  The damage is perfectly acceptable on all enemies outside highly armored ones at sortie level.

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

3) Okay, but can he be built for a mixture?

Not effectively. The more range you include, the less effective you are at taking damage unless you're able to spam Desolate Hands constantly, which is a huge energy drain at 75 energy a pop. The less range you include the less you're able to actually CC enemies, which is apparently his focus. A middling DR and a middling CC simply do not cut it for higher content.

Essentially, he does not have CC and DR, he has one or the other.

You can have a balanced mix of both styles.  You just cant' have your cake and eat it too.  Unfortunately this results in the style of play most people are seemingly not fond of with him.  aka pop elude.  occasionally use his 2 and 3.  once the field is clear of threats you pop your 4 to mop them up.  and then reset.  Going mixed ensures you can use all of his kit.  It just won't feel as good as if you specialize.  He always has both CC and DR.  Just not to their peak effectiveness.

6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

But hey, no need to worry, I got you covered. You see, there's this great frame that does almost the same thing as Baruuk, just better.

You wanna open enemies to finishers and stealth attacks with a #2 ability? Excal's got you covered, his effect doesn't wear off after a single hit and doesn't require a build up.

You want a Unique Weapon that hits enemies at range? Excal's got you covered there as well, he deals more damage, attacks faster and has better CC innate to the weapon. What's more, you get a free 60% DR to everything in front of you and significantly better base stats.

And if you want disarming as well, well I guess I could throw in this Chesa Kubrow, only £99,999, limited time offer, just for you guys.

Excal is less team friendly.  By that I mean excal primarily helps his allies through killing things.  Nothing he does is really support related outside his blind.  Baruuk will basically never die ensuring he can be a res bot.  Him constantly disarming enemies and using lull means the play area becomes less dangerous as time goes on for his allies.  I'd pick baruuk if I wanted a support style.  I'd pick excal if I wanted to be killing things.  Comparing them is silly when frankly they do seperate jobs.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

32 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

you actually wont OHKO armored 'trash mobs' either, a level 100 lancer has enough armor for about 85% DR

on the other hand his fists can easily kill non-armored high tier mobs without much problem

having a DPS ability suddenly drop completely in effectives just due to armor and having to way to naturally get around that armor is bad my guy

he already has an ability dedicated to disarming and again: since ur attacks send enemies flying, u wont get those 'punch disarms' often

any random dmg will wake up Lull'd targets, be it a pet, sentinel, ally or desolate hands, baruuk cant reliably rely on finisher attacks either

I'm not going to repeat myself yet again.  If you want an exalted weapon that excels at murder go play a different frame.  Doesn't matter what wakes them up.  They still get cced by lull as there is a mandatory stun when they do wake up from damage.

[TKDancer]

Just now, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm not going to repeat myself yet again.  If you want an exalted weapon that excels at murder go play a different frame.  Doesn't matter what wakes them up.  They still get cced by lull as there is a mandatory stun when they do wake up from damage.

and if i want CC i can use lull, if i want disarm i can use desolate hands, if i want to avoid dmg i can use elude, having an exalted weapon that keeps pushing armored enemies around while doing minor dmg is bad

 

and AGAIN: this is clearly not intended as his outgoing dmg isnt bad, baruuk can do over 20K dmg per wave on yellow crits, the only main issue is enemy armor and ragdolling being more of a major annoyance than useful 'cc'

 

also, right back at you: if u want a CC frame go play vauban, nyx, banshee or whatever

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If you're building purely for CC you don't care about having lots of daggers or anything to do with your fists.  Your 1 makes you invulnerable to everything sans AoE and knock back.  So the damage reduction from the daggers is irrelevant and your daggers will continually keep enemies disarmed.  Both it and Lull insure the field is a lot safer for your allies.  As lull slows, sleeps, stuns, resets alert status, and lingers.  Essentially CC based/passive based baruuk builds for high duration and range.  And doesn't need the damage reduction provided by either daggers or his 4.  Ah yea.  the whole "not attacking" cliche.  Your abilities sans your 4 are not attacks.  So you can freely cast them to pacify enemies and then attack safely.  Even then if you attack the time for the invinicibility to come back is less than a second. 

I'm concerned you aren't reading what I'm posting.

If you are building for CC, you do care about # of daggers, because each will disarm an enemy.

The Damage Reduction from them is absolutely relevant, as Elude only works when not attacking, you're underestimating just how limiting this is.

Furthermore, Lull is poor CC, it just is. Radial Blind affects the same area and also stuns/opens to finishers, but lasts longer due to the fact it doesn't wear off prematurely and affects enemies sooner. It is simply better at doing the same job.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

There is no urgency for Baruuk.  So he has all the time in the world to set things up to work in his favor.

You sound like one of those incredibly cringey TV ads.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The other build i'd suggest would be one focused on desert wind.  In which you'd have QT and primed flow.  Low ish duration.  high strength.  decent range.  With low duration you should be able to cast lull often.  Which lets you get into your ult faster.  As enemies only have to be effected by lull for the passive they don't need to be asleep.  And when you are in your 4 you can continue to lull and disarm in an aoe to keep the heat on you minimal whilst maintaining your 4.  Elude is really the only thing that takes a hit here since it's not high range.  But this build makes some use of DR and has qt p flow backing it up for the survivability outside his cc.  I think it's a mistake to try and look at him as a DR tank.  Rather I believe the intent is that by him having DR from his passive, daggers, and his 4 it's ensuring he always has some.  Not that he has an insane amount.  The damage is perfectly acceptable on all enemies outside highly armored ones at sortie level

No, DR takes a hit here as well, as you will be losing daggers constantly with "decent range".

So you have a poor Elude and a poor DR. You become reliant entirely on sleeping every enemy (with a lowish duration) and finisher attacking them, lest you get shot and die.

Why not just... play Ivara or Equinox or some other frame that's actually suited for the task?

I think it's a mistake to continue pretending that he can do both and still have viable damage, or a viable build even, yet here we are.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Unfortunately this results in the style of play most people are seemingly not fond of with him.  aka pop elude.  occasionally use his 2 and 3.  once the field is clear of threats you pop your 4 to mop them up.  and then reset. 

You're right, how could I have been so blind.

That sounds like sooooooooosooooooooo much fun. In fact, not only does it sound like a ton of fun, it sounds entirely viable.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Excal is less team friendly.

He's more team friendly, arguably.  

Baruuk stuns and opens to finishers/stealth multipliers. 

Excal stuns and opens to finishers/stealth multilpliers.

Baruuk gives minor DR to allies, at the cost of his own.

Excal deals viable damage, meaning he doesn't need an ally nearby to mop up.

Baruuk ragdolls enemies around and makes them hard to hit.

Excal... well, he doesn't. 

Do you realise how detrimental it is to shut down feedback with comments like "go and play a different frame" or "it's designed to be this way"?

Edited December 23, 2018 by DeMonkey

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This is CLEARLY a sign that he's supposed to be using his 4 to cc in end game. 

This is CLEARLY a sign that you're seeing it as you want it to be, and interpreting everything you can to point to it.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

He's not a murder machine. 

But he is.

"Baruuk is described as a "pacifist Warframe" and "reluctant hero", someone who normally avoids combat but is extremely effective at it once pushed past his breaking point."

And yet the frame we got isn't effective at it at all.

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If his 4 was on par with the rest of the exhalted weapons this cc would be meaningless

Guess what, that's why I proposed a buff and then damage fall off over range. It remains CC to enemies far away, but is a viable weapon closer up.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm concerned you aren't reading what I'm posting.

If you are building for CC, you do care about # of daggers, because each will disarm an enemy.

The Damage Reduction from them is absolutely relevant, as Elude only works when not attacking, you're underestimating just how limiting this is.

Furthermore, Lull is poor CC, it just is. Radial Blind affects the same area and also stuns/opens to finishers, but lasts longer due to the fact it doesn't wear off prematurely and affects enemies sooner. It is simply better at doing the same job.

I am.  Daggers is recastable.  Since the DR they're giving is not relevant for him due to elude (in this build) being his main forum of survivability.  I'm 100% aware of how elude works.  I know exactly how long that window of elude being down is.  and if i'm sleeping/disarming anything that's realistically a threat to me then its not a problem if it goes down when I attack.  Telling me i'm wrong without saying how is not helpful.  It's not poor cc.  It's just not.  It has 1 layer of soft cc and two layers of hard cc.  (slow being soft then the sleep and stun being hard.)  and it lingers.  this means you can potentially effect more enemies in a single cast than blind could (especially because blind has LoS limit) and you can use it creatively by leaving it in a door way to lock that spot off.

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

 

No, DR takes a hit here as well, as you will be losing daggers constantly with "decent range".

So you have a poor Elude and a poor DR. You become reliant entirely on sleeping every enemy (with a lowish duration) and finisher attacking them, lest you get shot and die.

Why not just... play Ivara or Equinox or some other frame that's actually suited for the task?

I think it's a mistake to continue pretending that he can do both and still have viable damage, or a viable build even, yet here we are.

Maybe you're the one not reading?  I never said in the part that you quoted that DR isn't effected in this kind of build.  I simply was stating that p flow plus qt will make up for the varying amounts of DR you will have with this build and that elude not being as great in this build is fine due to p flow and qt.  Which is a great setup for him as he boasts one of the highest energy pools in the game.  This build that I suggested is making frequent use of lull yes.  This and recasting your disarm with both give you up keep while you're in your 4.  and both make things semi safer for him.  Which means it doesn't hurt as bad to have less strong defense.  Really just seems like you completely ignored the build explanation.

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

 

He's more team friendly, arguably.  

Baruuk stuns and opens to finishers/stealth multipliers. 

Excal stuns and opens to finishers/stealth multilpliers.

Baruuk gives minor DR to allies, at the cost of his own.

Excal deals viable damage, meaning he doesn't need an ally nearby to mop up.

Baruuk ragdolls enemies around and makes them hard to hit.

Excal... well, he doesn't. 

 

You forgot baruuk can disarm.  And he "can" make them hard to hit.  If you're doing spin attack into held block ground slam it's a very consistent cc that clumps enemies into a tight pile around baruuk.  Which means the enemies are stupid easy to hit.  I will just say this.  I believe Baruuk is perfectly fine as is.  Just as I believed Garuda was fine as (barring her bugs of course.)  I'm not saying it's impossible for them to make Baruuk better.  Nor am I saying I don't want him to get buffed.

I'm just against people calling baruuk bad when he's not.  And i'm against flat buffing his damage.  I'd rather they find some other benefit that his 4 can do along side his cc in his 4.  Or give him some other way around said armor.  Like maybe some of his combos could weaken enemy armor.

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Daggers is recastable

For 75 energy. 

Forgive me if I don't think you're going to be spamming it to maintain it's full DR.

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

and if i'm sleeping/disarming anything that's realistically a threat to me then its not a problem if it goes down when I attack

But. You. Won't. It is not that effective.

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I never said in the part that you quoted that DR isn't effected in this kind of build

No?

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Elude is really the only thing that takes a hit here since it's not high range. 

^ Good golly gosh you dun diddly did.

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 I simply was stating that p flow plus qt will make up for the varying amounts of DR you will have with this build and that elude not being as great in this build is fine due to p flow and qt.  Which is a great setup for him as he boasts one of the highest energy pools in the game.  This build that I suggested is making frequent use of lull yes.  This and recasting your disarm with both give you up keep while you're in your 4.  and both make things semi safer for him.  Which means it doesn't hurt as bad to have less strong defense.  Really just seems like you completely ignored the build explanation.

Cool, so QT, P Flow and spamming Lull/Desolate Hands.

Where is all this energy going to come from, and what happens when you get shot and lose it all?

Pretty sure you're the one ignoring build explanations, given I laid out pretty clearly why this sort of thing isn't viable.

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You forgot baruuk can disarm

Really, after discussing it numerous times in this thread and making a joke about giving you a Chesa Kubrow? Please...

Disarming has limited effectiveness when it's a single enemy per dagger, it really does, and is detrimental in some situations.

21 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Nor am I saying I don't want him to get buffed

Yeah, you kinda are when you go on a rampage through every Baruuk thread telling people he's fine and doesn't need any changes. Anyone who wants changes should play another frame.

22 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'd rather they find some other benefit that his 4 can do along side his cc in his 4.  Or give him some other way around said armor.  Like maybe some of his combos could weaken enemy armor.

Then say that, rather than sticking your fingers in your ears and antagonising everyone.

This is how people have a discussion and reach compromises.