Mesa Prime Toggle Removal -- RESOLVED!

[NightmareT12]

2 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

-snip-

Not a TennoGen user myself, but damn that sucks to hear after the community push that happened to get that. I guess that Steve & co are looking into it and hope they can pull it off :C

Edited December 19, 2018 by NightmareT12

[Wyrmius_Prime]

3 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

I totally understand why it's upsetting as there's a clear precedent for toggles working in the past, but I want to offer a bit of extra clarity here since you mentioned Valkyr. 

The issue with Valkyr Prime details (and other texture issues with Primes) is completely separate from the issue here. Those were set up incorrectly and were a bug -- Mesa's are set up properly, that's not the problem unfortunately. We have never had this problem come up with Prime details on a TennoGen skin since previous Primes stayed fairly true to the original Warframe's model. This is the first time that Prime and the original model are so different that the Prime details simply don't line up properly, resulting in the texture problems that are currently live. 😞 

The toggle is being removed because of how 'broken' the Prime toggle is. That's all the info I have at the moment. 

FeelsBadMan

[ZyloWolfzan]

3 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

I totally understand why it's upsetting as there's a clear precedent for toggles working in the past, but I want to offer a bit of extra clarity here since you mentioned Valkyr. 

The issue with Valkyr Prime details (and other texture issues with Primes) is completely separate from the issue here. Those were set up incorrectly and were a bug -- Mesa's are set up properly, that's not the problem unfortunately. We have never had this problem come up with Prime details on a TennoGen skin since previous Primes stayed fairly true to the original Warframe's model. This is the first time that Prime and the original model are so different that the Prime details simply don't line up properly, resulting in the texture problems that are currently live. 😞 

The toggle is being removed because of how 'broken' the Prime toggle is. That's all the info I have at the moment. 

If you have never had this issue with Tennogen skins, has DE considered... you know, reaching out to the original Tennogen creators to help with this situation? Tennogen is already a back and forth process where DE and the artists work together to bring about the skin. Thus at the very least reaching out to the artists for help with this issue should be an obvious choice. There is absolutely no reason why you cannot at least ASK them about this issue and provide the model resources for Mesa Prime so the artists can work with it.

[Amontadillo]

 

6 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

I totally understand why it's upsetting as there's a clear precedent for toggles working in the past, but I want to offer a bit of extra clarity here since you mentioned Valkyr. 

The issue with Valkyr Prime details (and other texture issues with Primes) is completely separate from the issue here. Those were set up incorrectly and were a bug -- Mesa's are set up properly, that's not the problem unfortunately. We have never had this problem come up with Prime details on a TennoGen skin since previous Primes stayed fairly true to the original Warframe's model. This is the first time that Prime and the original model are so different that the Prime details simply don't line up properly, resulting in the texture problems that are currently live. 😞 

The toggle is being removed because of how 'broken' the Prime toggle is. That's all the info I have at the moment. 

there you go then.

1 hour ago, SoulEchelon said:

 I will agree more clarification may be a good idea as well

Happy now? See why I was worried? Notice how it turns out I was right to be worried? Yeah.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Amontadillo
clarification

[(XBOX)Shad0wfire99]

Had to get that $80 Prime Access out, guys.  To hell with quality.

[Mohiten]

3 minutes ago, [DE]Taylor said:

I totally understand why it's upsetting as there's a clear precedent for toggles working in the past, but I want to offer a bit of extra clarity here since you mentioned Valkyr. 

The issue with Valkyr Prime details (and other texture issues with Primes) is completely separate from the issue here. Those were set up incorrectly and were a bug -- Mesa's are set up properly, that's not the problem unfortunately. We have never had this problem come up with Prime details on a TennoGen skin since previous Primes stayed fairly true to the original Warframe's model. This is the first time that Prime and the original model are so different that the Prime details simply don't line up properly, resulting in the texture problems that are currently live. 😞 

The toggle is being removed because of how 'broken' the Prime toggle is. That's all the info I have at the moment. 

Thank you for the update.

Unfortunately this means I will most likely not spend my money on future Tennogen skins for Warframes - as I no longer have assurance that I would be able to enjoy the collaborative content that comprises these skins.

If this becomes a trend for all future Tennogen skins for warframes, I can see this having a terrible impact on the Tennogen community. This effectively deincentivizes any and all warframe tennogen skin development because of this issue - because why bother make Tennogen skins for a warframe if DE is simply going to throw the creators under the bus like this - and would negatively impact the revenue generated from warframe specific skins for both the creators and DE.

This decision also does an amazing disservice to the current owners of any Tennogen content for this warframe, and may well prevent future purchases, despite interest on the part of players.

[DecadeX]

If this is how Tennogen is going to work on frames with Primes that are very different from their originals I'm going to have to ask that you keep primes fairly close to their originals. Being able to customize stuff is huge in this game an you know that. If a prime's model is too different for existing cosmetics to work correctly then that's a bad prime model.

[(NSW)VandalD]

So there's zero confidence for Tennogen featuring frames that haven't been primed yet. It's really unfortunate, because a lot of the frames look fantastic with Tennogen and prime details turned on. What a letdown.

[SSI_Seraph]

This just screams don't buy tennogen because your investment will be useless on the prime release. The choice of wording is also problematic, you guys just left people guessing if this is a "eh w/e they'll forget eventually and it will die down" kind of "for now" or we'll work on it after our break".

 

[NightmareT12]

8 minutes ago, DecadeX said:

If this is how Tennogen is going to work on frames with Primes that are very different from their originals I'm going to have to ask that you keep primes fairly close to their originals. Being able to customize stuff is huge in this game an you know that. If a prime's model is too different for existing cosmetics to work correctly then that's a bad prime model. 

If they start compromising their own design decisions because of this, it's going to be a big suffering move for all their artistic design.

As someone whose main attraction to Warframe was the artstyle, the day they go for this kind of decision I'm going to abandon the game, of that much I am sure.

[SilentMobius]

3 hours ago, [DE]Taylor said:

Unfortunately there is no easy fix, so for the time being we are removing the Toggle for Mesa Prime specifically. You’ll still be able to use TennoGen skins on Mesa Prime, just without the Prime Details!

I was expecting this, I mean ever since  Chroma prime had a radically different mesh layout, hell before that when DE had to hack up Trinity Prime. I mean DE were pretty clear that all Tennogen was to be aimed at the non-prime mesh. The ability to use the Prime mesh was always a bit of a hack.

It's either limit DE's design creativity or switch off the ability to retexture the prime mesh.

I'm fine with this.

[x213ll]

so just to clarify and be 100% transparent is this going to be fixed or is Prime toggle on Mesa being permanently removed

I really hope that this is just a miscommunication  I spend a lot of money on fashion frame ;-;

[Xaiken-EN-]

I can understand why it is difficult to fix. To my understanding on how prime frames are made and my experience trying to create tennogen, the base model has primed details added to it. This keeps the integrity of the model for tennogen and allowing for the use of prime details. Mesa Prime had her base model altered to such an extent that the texture maps will no longer line up properly. This is a difficult problem to fix. Should internal solutions prove fruitless, I would echo a possible solution by Brozime that DE contact Mesa's tennogen artists and inquire if they would update their skins for Mesa Prime with due compensation. I really hope DE artists learn from this for future primes. Do not let "removing toggle" be an acceptable solution. 

[(PSN)Kalderec]

Will this be fixed in the coming future? Really appreciate an answer here 🙂

[Hypodermique]

@[DE]Taylor

I hope you guys are working on fixing Mesa Prime's low quality textures too, because right now the amount of pixels is alarming. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Hypodermique

[Neumeier]

Can we have an Excalibur Umbra Toggle?

[Rannulf]

1 hour ago, [DE]Taylor said:

I totally understand why it's upsetting as there's a clear precedent for toggles working in the past, but I want to offer a bit of extra clarity here since you mentioned Valkyr. 

The issue with Valkyr Prime details (and other texture issues with Primes) is completely separate from the issue here. Those were set up incorrectly and were a bug -- Mesa's are set up properly, that's not the problem unfortunately. We have never had this problem come up with Prime details on a TennoGen skin since previous Primes stayed fairly true to the original Warframe's model. This is the first time that Prime and the original model are so different that the Prime details simply don't line up properly, resulting in the texture problems that are currently live. 😞 

The toggle is being removed because of how 'broken' the Prime toggle is. That's all the info I have at the moment. 

The info people want to hear is, "this will be fixed given time" and, "we will work with due diligence to make sure all future primes are capable of using primed details on tennogen".

Kinda sucks to be someone who uses Mesa Tennogen, or someone who wants to buy Mesa Tennogen, only to learn (out of nowhere I might add) that you'll not be able to use a feature all previous primes were capable of using. It's also not a good call to throw in the idea that some future primed warframes may not be able to use this feature as well. People kinda wanna know that the precedent isn't going to be changed on a whim.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Rannulf

[SeikanEkasin]

I would gladly throw money at a Prime Pack and a Tenno skin when this gets fixed- but I'll pass for now.

[aheavysigh]

Am I the only one here who thinks this reaction of "That's it, this one prime has #*!%ed up prime details so we can't use it with Tennogen, I'm never going to buy Tennogen ever again because this one mistake/issue" is a bit over the top? Since they added the toggle option, every prime has worked (with that Valkyr issue that was fixed), and DE has explained why this time something went wrong. Don't get me wrong, it does seem to be a lack of foresight by DE to not realize that the model is so different that it would affect other skins, but then again, most of us here are not developers, and if this is a legitimately complex issue then we are just going to have to accept that.

 I get that people want to fashion frame the way they want, and I encourage DE to be accepting of community feedback and ideas of how to fix this issue, and be clearer about their intentions in terms of time instead of a vague "in the future" but really guys, this update has been out for less than a day. Seems a bit early to be throwing in the towel already.

[Armerkat]

Man, after reading all screaming in here, the devs have implied that they may work on a fix. As it sits, just having a prime toggle not working doesn't fully impact how you want to customize your frames. 

I'm still going to buy tennogen, and customize to my heart's content. 

 

It's just a little prime toggle that got removed for now. Not permanently.

[Pathog3n]

1 minute ago, dragnhuntr666 said:

Man, after reading all screaming in here, the devs have implied that they may work on a fix. As it sits, just having a prime toggle not working doesn't fully impact how you want to customize your frames. 

I'm still going to buy tennogen, and customize to my heart's content. 

 

It's just a little prime toggle that got removed for now. Not permanently.

I think it's the precedent that it could be setting, given that it's never been the case in the past. Which also makes people very weary about potentially purchasing tennogen skins in the future if they're not going to be functional on future primes.

[Armerkat]

1 minute ago, Pathog3n said:

I think it's the precedent that it could be setting, given that it's never been the case in the past. Which also makes people very weary about potentially purchasing tennogen skins in the future if they're not going to be functional on future primes.

That's why it's important to give DE a chance to look and fix the issue before jumping off the cliff with the other cattle so to speak.

[Rannulf]

16 minutes ago, Tsaiorchis said:

Am I the only one here who thinks this reaction of "That's it, this one prime has #*!%ed up prime details so we can't use it with Tennogen, I'm never going to buy Tennogen ever again because this one mistake/issue" is a bit over the top? Since they added the toggle option, every prime has worked (with that Valkyr issue that was fixed), and DE has explained why this time something went wrong. Don't get me wrong, it does seem to be a lack of foresight by DE to not realize that the model is so different that it would affect other skins, but then again, most of us here are not developers, and if this is a legitimately complex issue then we are just going to have to accept that.

 I get that people want to fashion frame the way they want, and I encourage DE to be accepting of community feedback and ideas of how to fix this issue, and be clearer about their intentions in terms of time instead of a vague "in the future" but really guys, this update has been out for less than a day. Seems a bit early to be throwing in the towel already.

People aren't throwing in the towel. They're trying to get a definitive "this will be fixed" out of DE, and everything we've gotten from them so far seems to be rather defeatist on their part. Nothing I've read thus far has given me an idea that they want to even try to fix this, let alone that they're actively working on doing so, or planning on doing so after the holidays.

From the sounds of, "We’ll do our due diligence for future Primes to turn off the toggle prior to release if model discrepancies make the toggle unusable," in the original post, the philosophy going forward seems like it might be "we'll work really hard on the primed warframes and how they look by default, and if primed details don't work on tennogen, tennogen users be damned". I like to think that DE would have the sense for maintaining the status quo they've set for tennogen and prime details thus far (that being ALL tennogen can use primed details), but I can understand why people are frustrated with all of the non-responses they've been getting from DE thus far.

Regardless of the fact whether or not it's a tough issue to crack, they've cracked tough issues before, and it's not inconceivable that there are ways to tackle the issue, and several work-arounds that are completely within DE's grasp, like, for example, getting the tennogen creators to rebuild their skins but for Mesa prime, and just making sure everyone who owns THAT tennogen is able to use the Prime variant on Mesa Prime. DE isn't poor, and they can afford to pay the creators for that, guaranteed.

EDIT: The fix I just suggested is something that could definitely work, but it's also a "worst case scenario," "we can't get tennogen as it currently is to work on this primed warframe" type of fix. Break glass in case of emergency, and I think it's very possible there's a simpler solution to the whole issue that wouldn't require rebuilding several skins.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Rannulf

[Armerkat]

I wonder if some of these people are taking into account how much the devs are busting there Clem Primes getting us content as fast as they do. They have loads of new content they are working on and a simple prime toggle can easily be put on a back burner until the content that requires much more attention gets taken care of. 

 

 

I'm sure the devs are working on it, though it's just not a major game breaking priority right now.

[Rannulf]

23 minutes ago, dragnhuntr666 said:

Man, after reading all screaming in here, the devs have implied that they may work on a fix. As it sits, just having a prime toggle not working doesn't fully impact how you want to customize your frames. 

I'm still going to buy tennogen, and customize to my heart's content. 

 

It's just a little prime toggle that got removed for now. Not permanently.

 

2 minutes ago, dragnhuntr666 said:

I wonder if some of these people are taking into account how much the devs are busting there Clem Primes getting us content as fast as they do. They have loads of new content they are working on and a simple prime toggle can easily be put on a back burner until the content that requires much more attention gets taken care of. 

 

 

I'm sure the devs are working on it, though it's just not a major game breaking priority right now.

If they're working on it, they're doing a poor job of communicating that fact, and that's what people are upset with most of all it seems.

"We’ll do our due diligence for future Primes to turn off the toggle prior to release if model discrepancies make the toggle unusable."

That's a direct quote from the OP before it got edited, and nothing in the edit made it seem like that philosophy changed or was corrected. Rebecca made a comment on twitter that didn't help the situation much either. 

People just want them to say the words "We are working on fixing it" or "We will be trying to make Primed details work on Mesa Prime tennogen in time". And they're not. And they're implying that they're not going to from the looks of it.