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[DE]Bear

Chat Moderation Changes and Additions!

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1 hour ago, [DE]Bear said:

Chat Moderators messages will no longer appear in purple text. In the future, this will be reserved exclusively for Warframe Staff

I do agree that we need alot more moderation staff to handle the chats! The one thing I do not like is taking away the purple text. In some way the chat moderators should be more visible to players to help deter bad behavior. 

Also! As this is a very unpopular opinion, I still feel lile Region Chat should either be removed or altered in some way to help improve the random toxicity that happens, perhaps more keywords that warrant an instant ban by the bots? 

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26 minutes ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Are those rules public?

Yes, the chat rules are public. They're displayed every time you connect to the chat.

They have also been clarified in more detail in the link provided in the opening post, specifically under the "Chat Moderator Code of Conduct" section:

Moderators are authorized to act upon the following:

Baiting others to trigger Kickbot

  • Tricking players into sending messages, words, or terms that are flagged by Kickbot, resulting in the player being kicked from chat

Chat spamming

  • Repeating messages with the same content continuously within a short time

Repeated Recruiting in Region chat

  • Remaining in Region chat after being directed to the Recruiting chat

Repeated trading in Region chat

  • Remaining in Region chat after being directed to the Trading chat

Topics of overtly sexual nature

Racism

  • Racial slurs, pejoratives and stereotypes.
  • Using alternate spelling or alluding to racial slurs through masked or reordered characters

Bullying

  • Continuously attacking other players

Profanity

  • Incessant swearing
  • Using profanity to attack or in reference to another player

Sexism and bigotry

  • Attacking players for their sexual identity or orientation.
  • Using alternate spelling or alluding to slurs based on sexual identity or identification through masked or reordered characters

Religious and spiritual intolerance

Attempting to trade fake or real items

  • If something does not exist or cannot be traded, it is considered fraud
  • This also covers (but is not limited to) external services, such as personal pictures, levelling services, and content of other games

Developer bashing

  • Insults, threats, and other violent, inappropriate, and non-constructive comments about Digital Extremes and its staff are not tolerated

Sharing Personal Information

  • This includes, but is not limited to, full birth name, home address, IP address, and phone numbers

Spreading Misinformation

  • Misleading other players about Digital Extreme's actions or intentions
  • Repeating attempts to spread false information about a system, player, in-game function or reward after being corrected
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So anything done on past actions, or is this only applying for the future?

There's quite a lot of evidence against a certain few that show they have violated this Code of Conduct numerous times in the past.

 

Additionally, anything in regards to how the forums are handled, specifically the lack of transparency in a lot of areas and some of the behavior I have seen personally in more recent months? Though the latter isn't necessarily specific to only moderators.

Edited by Sean
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1 hour ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

Are those rules public? Because nothing in the OP really mentions rules for the community. Without clear chat rules, including knowing what common words and proper nouns trigger the chat bot, people don't know what they can't say. But DE has said nothing about that. They are intentionally keeping players in the dark, and that will only maximize the number of players who get banned, fairly or unfairly, while ensuring people dont actually learn not to say those things in the first place. It's a system designed to punish as many as possible, not to actually prevent bad behavior in the first place.

in the op https://www.warframe.com/community/volunteers#modscc

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21 minutes ago, Sean said:

So anything done on past actions, or is this only applying for the future?

There's quite a lot of evidence against a certain few that show they have violated this Code of Conduct numerous times in the past.

 

Additionally, anything in regards to how the forums are handled, specifically the lack of transparency in a lot of areas and some of the behavior I have seen personally in more recent months? Though the latter isn't necessarily specific to only moderators.

Future actions, it wouldn't make sense to retroactively punish people for breaking rules that were just updated/created.

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2 minutes ago, Cleesus said:

Future actions, it wouldn't make sense to retroactively punish people for breaking rules that were just updated/created.

 

Alright, fair enough.

 

I do hope some moderator's usernames are also looked at, not only the one that everyone knows and cites for various reasons, but also ones that may look imply they are a developer to any new players.

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This is exactly what I had wanted to know. That a team of professionals, who are accountable both in game and as a result of being hired to do a job, is welcome. That changes to mod rollover was done with a minimum of fuss and uproar is good.

I hope the exiting volunteers do not take the removal personally and hope that they as a group continue to enjoy Warframe. This is a good game made better by friends. It is clear that they have stuck together for years, so if nothing else they will have that core group to rely on.

As for what else has been posted? I wish to be hopeful on what will come, as I have asked (rather forcefully and loudly) after such changes Combine the moderation logging and feedback tools along with a clear set of guidelines with this new team of professionals that are presumably accountable as professionals and we have what looks like a good clean slate for the coming year.

No, really. I'm one of the people that were more vocal on the warframe subreddit at 'where's part 2' 'how can DE Bear be objective given how things are structured' 'it feels like things are being swept unde r the rug and all the talk is just idle talk to get us to stop' and 'DE_Bear is being thrown out to the wolves as fall guy.'

I am glad to be proven wrong. This is not 'it,' and I am glad to see that more is coming, but this right here? It addresses my more vocal concerns and fears. Thank you.

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

 

Alright, fair enough.

 

I do hope some moderator's usernames are also looked at, not only the one that everyone knows and cites for various reasons, but also ones that may look imply they are a developer to any new players.

Any names or concerns you have about chat mods or their names you can send to support. Support/staff will review it according to the new chat mod CoC

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3 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

This is exactly what I had wanted to know. That a team of professionals, who are accountable both in game and as a result of being hired to do a job, is welcome. That changes to mod rollover was done with a minimum of fuss and uproar is good.

I hope the exiting volunteers do not take the removal personally and hope that they as a group continue to enjoy Warframe. This is a good game made better by friends. It is clear that they have stuck together for years, so if nothing else they will have that core group to rely on.

As for what else has been posted? I wish to be hopeful on what will come, as I have asked (rather forcefully and loudly) after such changes Combine the moderation logging and feedback tools along with a clear set of guidelines with this new team of professionals that are presumably accountable as professionals and we have what looks like a good clean slate for the coming year.

No, really. I'm one of the people that were more vocal on the warframe subreddit at 'where's part 2' 'how can DE Bear be objective given how things are structured' 'it feels like things are being swept unde r the rug and all the talk is just idle talk to get us to stop' and 'DE_Bear is being thrown out to the wolves as fall guy.'

I am glad to be proven wrong. This is not 'it,' and I am glad to see that more is coming, but this right here? It addresses my more vocal concerns and fears. Thank you.

No chat mods have been removed, the professional chat mods are in addition to the volunteer chat mods.

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Just now, Cleesus said:

No chat mods have been removed, the professional chat mods are in addition to the volunteer chat mods.

HUH, Not seeing the moderator badge on the folk I'm thinking of.  Still, Even though I have problems with the volunteers (rather severe problems to be frank,) they now aren't ruling the roost and now have to work within a wider team as opposed to just themselves. So while I really rather would like them to not be there due to past beavior, if they aren't able to run rough over everyone? I can work with that.

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1 minute ago, limernest said:

Does this change only affect in game chat? I assume forum moderation is unchanged?

Nothing has been announced concerning forum moderation at this time.

 

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16 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

HUH, Not seeing the moderator badge on the folk I'm thinking of.  Still, Even though I have problems with the volunteers (rather severe problems to be frank,) they now aren't ruling the roost and now have to work within a wider team as opposed to just themselves. So while I really rather would like them to not be there due to past beavior, if they aren't able to run rough over everyone? I can work with that.

 

From what I've seen after even checking profiles of people I know are still chat-moderators, this appears to have been removed. Maybe a bug?

 

On a separate note, thanks @Cleesus; it is much appreciated you're answering people's questions in here while not being obligated to do so.

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3 minutes ago, Sean said:

 

From what I've seen after even checking profiles of people I know are still chat-moderators, this appears to have been removed. Maybe a bug?

 

On a separate note, thanks @Cleesus; it is much appreciated you're answering people's questions in here while not being obligated to do so.

yup no problem

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Soooo, does this mean that the autoban bot's lists of words has been reset? Have the old chat mods been removed?

If not, this probably doesn't fix anything. I'll just continue to leave region & relay chat off and avoid talking to people unless I have to. Walking in the minefield of bannable words (which still aren't public) isn't worth risking my ability to PM people for trades.

Edited by Ayures
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1 hour ago, Cleesus said:
2 hours ago, Letter13 said:

Yes, the chat rules are public. They're displayed every time you connect to the chat.

They have also been clarified in more detail in the link provided in the opening post, specifically under the "Chat Moderator Code of Conduct" section:

Moderators are authorized to act upon the following:

Baiting others to trigger Kickbot

  • Tricking players into sending messages, words, or terms that are flagged by Kickbot, resulting in the player being kicked from chat

Chat spamming

  • Repeating messages with the same content continuously within a short time

Repeated Recruiting in Region chat

  • Remaining in Region chat after being directed to the Recruiting chat

Repeated trading in Region chat

  • Remaining in Region chat after being directed to the Trading chat

Topics of overtly sexual nature

Racism

  • Racial slurs, pejoratives and stereotypes.
  • Using alternate spelling or alluding to racial slurs through masked or reordered characters

Bullying

  • Continuously attacking other players

Profanity

  • Incessant swearing
  • Using profanity to attack or in reference to another player

Sexism and bigotry

  • Attacking players for their sexual identity or orientation.
  • Using alternate spelling or alluding to slurs based on sexual identity or identification through masked or reordered characters

Religious and spiritual intolerance

Attempting to trade fake or real items

  • If something does not exist or cannot be traded, it is considered fraud
  • This also covers (but is not limited to) external services, such as personal pictures, levelling services, and content of other games

Developer bashing

  • Insults, threats, and other violent, inappropriate, and non-constructive comments about Digital Extremes and its staff are not tolerated

Sharing Personal Information

  • This includes, but is not limited to, full birth name, home address, IP address, and phone numbers

Spreading Misinformation

  • Misleading other players about Digital Extreme's actions or intentions
  • Repeating attempts to spread false information about a system, player, in-game function or reward after being corrected

There is a country located on the continent of Africa that has a name that is also used as a workaround for a racist term. Using that proper name (the name of the country) in any context seems to get players banned, yet it is not listed as a banned word in the rules. There is another common word that means 1) a device for taking game or other animals, 2) something by which one is caught or stopped unawares, 4 slang: mouth, 5) any various devices for preventing passage of something often while allowing other matter to proceed, 6) a group of percussion instruments used especially in a dance or jazz band. This word is also used as a trans-phobic slur. It is normally used as a common word, and seems to trigger the chat bot whenever it is used in conjunction with the name of a Warframe, yet this is not mentioned in the rules.

That is what I'm talking about. You all need to make very clear in your rules which Common Words and Proper Names trigger the chat bot, specifically because they are common enough words that they can be used in normal, non-derogatory contexts. That is not clear for players. You don't need to listen all the workaround words and combinations of words and numbers that people use to try to circumvent the chat bot. You don't need to remove the words/phrases from your filter. You just need to make clear that certain common words and proper names trigger the bot, so that people know very clearly that they are not supposed to use them. That will actually help prevent the use of these offending terms/phrases and will ensure innocent players don't accidentally get themselves banned. Your chat system and rules should be such that they protect innocent players as well as punish offending ones. And until you have that focus (and not just one on punishing offenders), you will continue to harm the community instead of helping it.

Please consider implementing this. It will repair the relationship between the community/chat moderator team and the community.

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6 hours ago, DeaneTheMachine17 said:

Yeah sorry mate, We need the moderators be more visible. It reduces the chance of people saying stupid stuff AKA a deterrent. 

I disagree. You don't need to know the specific moderator in order for them to be regulated

Making them less obvious cuts down on the witch hunting.

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5 hours ago, Zyneris said:

Disable Region Chat -> Best form of moderation 😄

Unfortunately, this is what I've done *because* of the moderators, and wont be turning it back on at this time, or for the foreseeable future.

This is all too little, too late.

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7 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

There is a country located on the continent of Africa that has a name that is also used as a workaround for a racist term. Using that proper name (the name of the country) in any context seems to get players banned, yet it is not listed as a banned word in the rules. There is another common word that means 1) a device for taking game or other animals, 2) something by which one is caught or stopped unawares, 4 slang: mouth, 5) any various devices for preventing passage of something often while allowing other matter to proceed, 6) a group of percussion instruments used especially in a dance or jazz band. This word is also used as a trans-phobic slur. It is normally used as a common word, and seems to trigger the chat bot whenever it is used in conjunction with the name of a Warframe, yet this is not mentioned in the rules.

That is what I'm talking about. You all need to make very clear in your rules which Common Words and Proper Names trigger the chat bot, specifically because they are common enough words that they can be used in normal, non-derogatory contexts. That is not clear for players. You don't need to listen all the workaround words and combinations of words and numbers that people use to try to circumvent the chat bot. You don't need to remove the words/phrases from your filter. You just need to make clear that certain common words and proper names trigger the bot, so that people know very clearly that they are not supposed to use them. That will actually help prevent the use of these offending terms/phrases and will ensure innocent players don't accidentally get themselves banned. Your chat system and rules should be such that they protect innocent players as well as punish offending ones. And until you have that focus (and not just one on punishing offenders), you will continue to harm the community instead of helping it.

Please consider implementing this. It will repair the relationship between the community/chat moderator team and the community.

First one is probably valid (and I suspect that there are 2 adjacent countries that meet the criteria), second one has been proven not to trigger the bot except in very specific context. 

 

There are others that I disagree with because they're regional slurs that people outside of North America would be unfamiliar with. Which I'll adress in my next post. 

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11 hours ago, Letter13 said:

If you have suggestions or feedback on how you think this could be avoided, it would be greatly appreciated if you posted them. Simply saying "This is bad" or "This will make things worse" is not very helpful.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1005795-warframe-chat-moderation-assessment-and-renovation/

 

While many of his points are geared towards improving the bot, several are/include requests for changes to the way actions are dealt with by the human mods. 

 

Like the request for proper, informative feedback/warnings (as opposed to the vague "that's not an appropriate topic of discussion" like what we've seen screenshots of, or a request to know if something innocuous that seemed to be what got someone banned is indeed a bannable offense is actually bannable being met with "we don't discuss bans with other parties").

Also a request for first offenses to be given warnings (balanced by even stricter penalties for repeat offenders). 

Both of these are especially important because I understand the very valid reasons for not sharing details about what is on the list, and not everyone can be reasonably expected to be familiar with idiomatic slurs from outside of their area. That means that it's on DE to educate people about what's acceptable and what's not. Yes kicks and bans also have that effect, but several responses to this thread shows that they're just as likely to cause a person to avoid using the chat at all, for fear of 'unjust punishment'. 

As a Forum mod you know that you guys do these things when you give warnings, because you do more than simply slap a ban on someone and refuse to elaborate on what the person did. 

 

Another aspect aimed at the human mods is his suggestion of an appeal process. Mods are human and sometimes, humans do the wrong things. A mod trying to deal with things in the heat of the moment, may make a decision that they wouldn't have if they weren't so close to a particular subject. Being able to appeal, even to the mod themselves may cause a reversal of an action. 

That's my main request, for DE to just check out @Fallen_Echo's suggestions.

 

My personal request is, "for the love of all that is good and right in the world, get some more eyes in PS4 region chat and start smashing the trolls with the biggest, meanest ban hammers you guys can find..... PLEASE!" 

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Since i have been summoned here (thanks @(PS4)guzmantt1977 !) i might aswell post it here too:

Since the latest posting i have decreased the amount of warnings on certain messages and increased punishments.

 

1.) Instead of banning/kicking for minor mistakes like typing into the wrong chat the bot from now on posts your message in the proper chat and sends out a warning that these kind of messages should be posted in X chat window.

 You can make 1 errors per day and the bot warns you to use the proper chat before it bans you. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

When the player tries to type in a message into the wrong chat the filter system now gives you a prompt saying that "You are in the wrong chat section, would you want to place your message in the proper one?" hitting yes gets you to the proper chat for that kind of message.

 

2.) Instead of banning/kicking the bot now simply deletes your messages if it deemes it as spamYou will get a warning and can make 2 mistakes per day of joining in a spam line before you get banned. The duration of the ban is 1 day.

 

3.) When someone tries to use an insult or slur whats currently prohibited the bot simply deletes the message and warns the user that this kind of thing is not welcome here.

  • You get 1 warning and the next one is the ban.

  • One warning is universal in this case and its active for 240 hours, if the user uses another word whats prohibited the minimum ban is 4 days.

  • Each new warning from the initial increases the ban lenght by 4 days while also resets the hour counter on them.

  • If an user accumulates 5 warnings the bot sends a report to an avaible moderator who can decide if the user is worthy of having chat access, if the mod decides that the user is unworthy of it hes banned from the chat system completely for atleast half year.

  • For the whole duration of banning and warning cooldown the users who crossed the line are marked so everyone can decide whenever they want to talk with them.

 

4.) The bans only affect the main chats and never the squadchat and the clan chat. Those are private areas. The pm system usage is limited to friends only when the user is banned.

Clan chat gets its own chat filter system what can be edited by the leader and the highest ranking officers of the clan, they also can set the duration of the punishment they give out there.


 

5.) Thought the users while still can use the squad, clan and pm chats their names are marked with a small message next to their username [banned for X] for the duration of the ban.

Users can also see whats going on the other chats but cannot write in them.

Users while can only message their friends in the pm system they are kept open for those who want to communicate privately. The only limit in how to talk to someone who is not a friend in a ban period is that the other side must start the conversation.

 

6.) The warnings given by the bot or a moderator in all case have the following information:

  • What you typed in, soo you can see your error.

  • What warning is this. If you get warned for spamming the message will clearly says "You have been warned for spamming"

  • Incase of insults and slurs a message claiming why is this prohibited and what else similar is prohibited thought no clear examples are given

  • What will happen if you continue the prohibited behaviour, kick, 1 day ban, etc..

 

 

7.) The bans given by the bot or moderators in all cases have the following information and message:

  • A simply start what makes the message appear more personal."Hello anotherbannedone ......."

  • A copy of the text what has banned you " you have been banned for typing [you sausage people make me sick] "

  • A reason why that text is banned " ,this and the similar insults were deemed unrespectful and hurtful for the community "

  • Information on how long is the ban is " for this you have been banned and marked for 48 hours "

  • And finally a system message what tells you how much warnings or marks you accumulated for this "This is your 2nd warning in this period"

 

8.) The bot should have no downtime to avoid the mess what can be seen at early and late hours.


9.) The bot can still kick people from the chat but as soon as the player relogs he is met with a warning saying that approtiate manner is requied to use chats. No further punishment is done.

 

10.) A new report function is added named chat report. This report send a copy of the message X user posted to the bot who attaches any info on the users current warnings to it and forwards it to any active moderator to check if it tried to avoid a bot ban.

This function is avaible on all chats with the adddition that you can select "mute and report" in squad chat if you think someone crossed the lines too much.


 

11.) Additionally the chat suspension should be alwaly negotiable like when your message gets removed here. 

When you get the warning and you dont agree with it you can forward it to another random moderator for overruling.

If that fails you stay in the ban/keep your warning or in some cases you get a longer ban depending on behaviour, IF its successfull you lose the warning or get out of the ban while you also get tagged as [justified] for mods what makes sure that the original banner/warning giver cant reban you as vengeance or pettyness.

 

11.) Every warning, message copy, ban data and moderator talk is logged and forwarded to the officials who overwatch the moderation team.

12.) The support should be able to react to all kind of chat bans even the automatic ones. Something handled by a bot should never be an excuse to not handle chat ban based support requests.


 

Subpoints, these are suggestions what does not necessearly connect in a direct way to the main suggestion but could also eliminate other unnecesseary elements from the chat.


Subpoint 1: I propose the idea of an automatic search system incorporated into the whole chat system. We all know that various plat scammers are trying to get people buy their plat and this is both annoying and dangerous for foolish people. I suggest that all messages are scanned for containing combinations of links, real life money names and plat.

When a message is caught up in this filter an automatic mark is added to the message sent: PLAT SCAM, REPORT USER? 

If you click on the message a window opens where you can confirm if it is a plat scam and send the report directly to the support and to an active moderator to act and temporarly revoke the chat rights of the said user if it is really a plat scam.

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While I appreciate the thought put into your post @Fallen_Echo, that seems way too much. Only one warning before a 240 hour ban? That's... a lot. Like a whole lot, and one warning in general isn't much. People already get up in arms if they come into chat and don't see a previous warning from a Moderator about joining in for spam and getting kicked, "without warning." This would just cause a lot more salt, but that's my personal opinion. With some editing I could see some of the above being feasible, perhaps, but nothing with one warning and nothing that has a starting punishment of 240 hours. Unless it's some egregious offense I just don't personally see the justification in that.

Also, the idea that all this of info being forwarded to Moderators is good, but just unworkable. The Mod team as I currently understand it isn't big enough to handle that much of an info dump all of the time. Just in support tickets the support staff gets overworked and swamped, and they're a far larger team than the Moderators. They would get far more requests and issues put on them with an in-game auto-report system than they could handle. It's far more efficient to simply have a Moderator present with an appeals system in place that's well supported (and can utilize to a degree the larger staff of the support team to deal with the volume of requests) than to have it be the Moderator team's job alone. Heck, that's part of the reason the bot exists at all, to help take some of the easier to handle and extremely common problems off of Mods and Guides. That's not to say the idea doesn't have merit, it does, I just don't see how the current team could handle it with the staff they have.

Edit: I just now realized I posted this with my noob Nintenno account and not my main one... whoops. I'll have to try to fix that.

Edited by (NSW)Jeahanne

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8 minutes ago, (NSW)Jeahanne said:

While I appreciate the thought put into your post @Fallen_Echo, that seems way too much. Only one warning before a 240 hour ban? That's... a lot. Like a whole lot, and one warning in general isn't much. People already get up in arms if they come into chat and don't see a previous warning from a Moderator about joining in for spam and getting kicked, "without warning." This would just cause a lot more salt, but that's my personal opinion. With some editing I could see some of the above being feasible, perhaps, but nothing with one warning and nothing that has a starting punishment of 240 hours. Unless it's some egregious offense I just don't personally see the justification in that.

Also, the idea that all this of info being forwarded to Moderators is good, but just unworkable. The Mod team as I currently understand it isn't big enough to handle that much of an info dump all of the time. Just in support tickets the support staff gets overworked and swamped, and they're a far larger team than the Moderators. They would get far more requests and issues put on them with an in-game auto-report system than they could handle. It's far more efficient to simply have a Moderator present with an appeals system in place that's well supported (and can utilize to a degree the larger staff of the support team to deal with the volume of requests) than to have it be the Moderator team's job alone. Heck, that's part of the reason the bot exists at all, to help take some of the easier to handle and extremely common problems off of Mods and Guides. That's not to say the idea doesn't have merit, it does, I just don't see how the current team could handle it with the staff they have.

Edit: I just now realized I posted this with my noob Nintenno account and not my main one... whoops. I'll have to try to fix that.

First the increases were done because many users in the old thread and in reoccuring ones asked for harsher punishments. Also unless you dont know it the current system gives out weeklong bans and no warnings at all. Comparing that to this already feels much better.

 

As for you second phrase all moderation action will be logged and watched throught so i dont think its that big of a step to push out a bit more.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

First one is probably valid (and I suspect that there are 2 adjacent countries that meet the criteria), second one has been proven not to trigger the bot except in very specific context. 

 

There are others that I disagree with because they're regional slurs that people outside of North America would be unfamiliar with. Which I'll adress in my next post. 

That specific context seems to be Warframe name + the word in question, any phrase that includes them. But even still, it isn't stated that this is how the chat bot works. It's not clear for players to understand, and I suspect it is intentionally set up that way to maximize how many people are punished.

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