Nyx's rework was very underwelming.

[LascarCapable]

I'm going to go straight to the point : Nyx rework was very disappointing (at least in my case) and did not solve most of old Nyx's issues.

While Mind Control's buff is good on paper, it falls flat once the player realize that your mind controlled target is usually much more busy shooting at walls, or taking a lunch break. It's simple, those 20 seconds of mind control you get, instead of making use of it, you're guaranteed the AI will whiff it in the most annoying way possible. And if by luck the AI actually decides to do something useful, it's still fairly underwhelming even with a 800% damage bonus. The AI once mind controlled tends to get stuck in a lot of obnoxious animations (when it's not desperately trying to shuffle its way to your position) which wastes a lot of its duration and it's already disappointing damage potential.

-> Mind control's countdown should only start once the enemy has finished its 4 seconds stun, and the mind controlled target should at least be able to move faster and be much more accurate. It's feels very insulting to see your mind controlled enemies literally failing at hitting anything because they can't reach their destination quick enough and miss literally all of their shots like how my friend missed the toilets last time he got drunk (he better clean this up btw).

The new iteration of Psychic Bolts irritates me a lot. I seriously hate this : why should I hold "2" to cancel my oldest instance of the power ? It makes no sense ! It's an uncessary additional step to do something incredibly simple ! Take any power where your last instance of the power gets cancelled and replaced by the new one when you cast it again, like Octavia's Mallet : do you need to hold 1 to replace your old Mallet ? No ! Then why is it the case here ?! It's absurd, and as a student in HCI this really rubs me the wrong way. By the way, was that limit to 6 targets even necessary ? I think multiple instances of that ability should definitely be able to coexist. I don't think Nyx will become utterly broken if you allow her to spam Psychic Bolts as much as she wants, as long as you make sure that enemies already affected cannot be affected again. After all, some frames does a much better job at literally wrecking everything in their path.

-> Allow us to use psychic bolts without any form of restriction (just make sure it only targets enemies that haven't been affected already).If you're really afraid Psychic Bolts becomes OP with that, at least just make it so just pressing 2 again replaces the lastest iteration of Psychic Bolts with the new one, and remove that "hold 2 to cancel" thing.

EDIT : Also consider allowing Psychic Bolts to disable eximus effects, it would give to PB some very useful niche among debuff powers.

Chaos is still good old chaos. At least there's that.

-> Nothing to say here, it's good old Chaos and it's good.

Absorb is still the boring, obnoxiously passive 4 ability it always was. You just sit there and wait for enemies to feed you. The small bit of rework you guys granted to it didn't change that in anyway. You guys managed to rework Hydroid's Undertow ability in a very innovative way to allowing him to drag nearby enemies to him with a water tentacle, not implementing something similar to Absorb was really a missed opportunity. Also, I think Absorb should do a much better job at getting enemies out of your face than just a small knockdown.

-> Make Absorb ragdoll enemies in a rather powerful way when you disable it, and give it something the player can do while Absorb is channeling to promote a more active gameplay. Perhaps allow us to attack enemies with a leech ray or something, and using that leech ray increase faster Absorb's damage treshold. Just a random idea.

I hope Nyx's status will still get some attention after the update with a few well deserved changes, because that overhaul felt quite disappointing in my opinion.

 

[Nurmetya]

So its a "vauban" level of re-work then good to know.

[GnarlsDarkley]

New drinking game: every time you say obnoxious we have to drink

Joke aside: I haven't played her for years and I haven't after the "rework" but your text makes sense and it seems her kit didn't really improve

Edited December 18, 2018 by GnarlsDarkley

[LascarCapable]

il y a 4 minutes, GnarlsDarkley a dit :

New drinking game: every time you say obnoxious we have to drink

Joke aside: I haven't played her for years and I haven't after the "rework" but your text makes sense and it seems her kit didn't really improve

I'm going to use a more varied lexicon then : I definitely don't want to give people another reason to get drunk. My toilets aren't ready for another drunk friend desperately trying to aim at the middle.

[HolySeraphin]

I think that Mind Freak isn´t working as it should. I tested it and didn´t notice any substantial increase in a lvl30 enemy. Also, Nyx should be able to spam her Bolts or at least cast again to refresh. As D20 said, it is too cumbersome to hold 2 for two seconds and then cast again. Ash with his augmented shurikens can spam as he pleases to remove armor, why can´t Nyx do the same?

By the way, it seems that enemies affected by Psychic bolts have a green outline,but the problem is that it isn´t affected by energy color and the outline is too thin to notice during a fight. I suggest making an aura like a disruptor ancient to make the enemy stand out. 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by HolySeraphin

[Wyrmius_Prime]

DE just has to realize that mind controlling enemies is useless, because they deal no damage relative to their own health, especially at high levels. Bolts also rely on strength, which Nyx isn't usually built for. Mind Controlled enemies need a major buff. Revenant suffers from the same problem.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Wyrmius_Prime

[Mu_Gera]

Bolts only being castable once is definitely underwhelming for what it does, though it is better now otherwise.

Mind control targets inheriting damage types would add more utility than damage absorption.

And absorb should get a status chance stat, again for the added utility.

 

Not sure if this enough to help modernize her kit but it atleast feels like a good step.

[XenMaster]

Can we also get Psychic Bolts to mark enemy so that Mind Control and Chaos target fire that marked target?

 

Because she could be great considering if she soloing.

[Xzorn]

Agree with pretty much everything. Don't really care about the damage potential of Absorb. Never used it for that.

Made a post myself about her Bolts and it's Augment not being fixed and made even worse by being limited to one instance.

With a lack of Bolts and her new useless passive Nyx is legit worse as a CC and debuff frame. It's very unfortunate.

Don't believe me? Make yourself this safe against lvl 160 Napalms without spamming Chaos the whole time.... I'll wait.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Xzorn

[Devz1]

Honestly I was really disappointed with the changes. I was shocked at how little damage a mind controlled enemy does even at 1000% increased damage. 

And agreed about the hold 2 mechanic. It's like they are adding complexity for complexity's sake, there's just no reason for it.

[Sailears]

Agree with all of that, especially the hold to release psychic bolts - very awkward to use. The debuff is great. The projectile target selection, target limit and release mechanic not so much.

And yes would be nice to have some active component to Absorb instead of having to use Assimilate to get any interactive play from it.

[XenMaster]

Mind Control target should just gain exalted mod slot to give them elemental damage and remove their "take cover" mechanic. Allow us to interact that target to stay position / follow me like Specters so we can keep them defending the objectives.

 

 

[Anthraxicus]

Yeah. This rework was pretty lame indeed. I played with her once then ditched her again. Not worth the trouble

Two things that would make Mind Control at least fun to use, because it is worthless damage-wise even with the rework, haven't been considered by DE. First, being able to refresh the ability, cuz I don't wanna lose a valuable Ancient Healer or have to pump 4 seconds worth of damage into a single guy every 20 seconds (damage that would be better used actually killing enemies). And also being able to Mind Control really high valuable targets, like Raknoids, to make her truly unique. The changes implemented were already bad on paper, and are even worse during actual gameplay. 

 

Because Psychic bolts got their damage removed, sometimes I can't even tell if they actually hit a target if I don't manually check to see if their defenses are down indeed. Plus the problems listed in the OP.

 

The other abilities remains absolutely the same. It can barely be called a rework. Another let down, just like the rest of the update.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

A good Fix to Absorb being such a boring sitting duck game would be allowing Nyx to cast her abilities while in Absorb so:
- Your Nearby Mind Controlled enemy receives your absorbed damage so if other enemies don't die thanks to the blast, at least you will buff your minion
- Enemies weakened by Psychic Bolts will most likely die to the blast.
- You can cast Chaos because it ran out.

If they didn't change any of the Absorb cast times well then it's still the same clunky ability, also 8 extra energy drained per 1000 damage absorbed means casting Absorb on higher lvls is losing all of it, really makes this situational and not so reliable ability incredibly unreliable.
I really wish Augments weren't the only good reasons for some abilities to exist, quite a bunch of them just show how useless some abilities are without them.

[Howtoshootgun]

7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Agree with pretty much everything. Don't really care about the damage potential of Absorb. Never used it for that.

Made a post myself about her Bolts and it's Augment not being fixed and made even worse by being limited to one instance.

With a lack of Bolts and her new useless passive Nyx is legit worse as a CC and debuff frame. It's very unfortunate.

Don't believe me? Make yourself this safe against lvl 160 Napalms without spamming Chaos the whole time.... I'll wait.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

This so much

1) Mind control change is kinda fun

2) Bolt changes im not sure about, gotta admit i barely ever used them. Interesting in theory, you could build for str and use a debuffer build but since that runs kinda opposite to chaos im not sure it would be worth it

3) You left chaos alone, thank god

4) Absorb is absorb. That one time where it was bugged and soaked up player damage you could actually kill stuff, that was fun. Otherwise its a panic "oh noes; i got 3 procs on me" button. Who uses it for damage really

The new passive....i couldnt tell if enemies hit me less. What i sure could tell is they still had their guns and where shooting me. How why how in blooming heck is a random miss chance (with unknown odds as it stands now) better than a disarm. Change for the sake of change? You wanted it do be different from lokis radial disarm? No reason, no idea? Please revert this. Oh wait its for synergy with the new improved absorb. Uhhhhhhhhhh. Again pretty please revert this

This rework feels kinda half baked, its also kinda worrying with all the feedback from players who played Nyx maybe all of 10 minutes then dropped her again flying around. Nyx isnt for everyone, its not the best frame but it has its niche. Players who didnt play her before wont play her now either (and they wont buy the deluxe skin you prolly trying to push with this) since she still cant explode a room like other frames. I applaud DE for trying to keep old frames fresh but if theyre not broken (or not that much) or if you really dont have any concrete ideas its not a must - its ok guys please lower the dev tools and step away from the Nyx slowly, dont make any sudden movements

(In case it matters, maining Nyx since forever, with a side dish of Valkyr 😛)

Edited December 19, 2018 by Howtoshootgun
ampersand salad, changed bad words >:p

[LascarCapable]

Il y a 8 heures, XenMaster a dit :

Can we also get Psychic Bolts to mark enemy so that Mind Control and Chaos target fire that marked target?

 

Because she could be great considering if she soloing.

Any kind of added synergy is welcome. Especially that kind.

Il y a 5 heures, Anthraxicus a dit :

Yeah. This rework was pretty lame indeed. I played with her once then ditched her again. Not worth the trouble

Two things that would make Mind Control at least fun to use, because it is worthless damage-wise even with the rework, haven't been considered by DE. First, being able to refresh the ability, cuz I don't wanna lose a valuable Ancient Healer or have to pump 4 seconds worth of damage into a single guy every 20 seconds (damage that would be better used actually killing enemies). And also being able to Mind Control really high valuable targets, like Raknoids, to make her truly unique. The changes implemented were already bad on paper, and are even worse during actual gameplay. 

 

Because Psychic bolts got their damage removed, sometimes I can't even tell if they actually hit a target if I don't manually check to see if their defenses are down indeed. Plus the problems listed in the OP.

 

The other abilities remains absolutely the same. It can barely be called a rework. Another let down, just like the rest of the update.

Adding a way to extend mind control's duration may be a little clunky if you consider that you already use MC while active to cancel it. I can already imagine some issues with that : try to aim at your MCed enemy to extend the duration, miss by one pixel, watch him die...  But you have a very good point nonetheless. Turning Mind Control into a toggleable would work much better to apply that idea : infinite duration with a slow energy drain over time that wouldn't block outside energy regen (but still block energy siphon). This would be ideal in my opinion.

I don't think telling if targets have been hit by Psychic Bolts is such a big issue since they're supposed to glow with an outline made from your energy color. I myself never had that issue if soloing. Perhaps your energy color is too dark ?

Il y a 3 heures, ScytodiDaedalus a dit :

A good Fix to Absorb being such a boring sitting duck game would be allowing Nyx to cast her abilities while in Absorb so:
- Your Nearby Mind Controlled enemy receives your absorbed damage so if other enemies don't die thanks to the blast, at least you will buff your minion
- Enemies weakened by Psychic Bolts will most likely die to the blast.
- You can cast Chaos because it ran out.

If they didn't change any of the Absorb cast times well then it's still the same clunky ability, also 8 extra energy drained per 1000 damage absorbed means casting Absorb on higher lvls is losing all of it, really makes this situational and not so reliable ability incredibly unreliable.
I really wish Augments weren't the only good reasons for some abilities to exist, quite a bunch of them just show how useless some abilities are without them.

Basically the Hydroid 3 treatment without the tentacle. Could work, though I suspect it would be a little underwhelming when it comes about making the ability less passive. Think about it : you use absorb, you get to cast MC once, PB once, and Chaos once (because there would be absolutely no reason to use it a second time). After that it's back to the waiting game. Unless that target cap for Psychic Bolts gets removed which would allow an extensive use of it during Absorb, I don't think it's going to fully solve the issue.

About the absorb energy cost over time growing up with damage taken, if I remember correctly, this has been put in place to avoid cheesy gameplay consisting of using Absorb and only Absorb for the whole mission. Perhaps that energy cost could be capped, or Absorb should go back at being duration based instead of toggleable and get a similar threatment to Harrow's covenant (Absorb for a small while with explosion at the end, and then you get a buff for a duration).

[ArcKnight9202]

Well, after almost all of that feedback was neither addressed nor used, I had to test the new Nyx. Keep in mind that I play Nyx with absolutely 0 augments so I have no feedback on those at all.

First off, the passive. This is bad. I can't tell if it works or not. It is as I feared. Enemy accuracy is totally inconsequential when you factor in just how many bullets/beams/whatever are coming toward you. I can't take that Supra away anymore. I have to let it melt my face.

Not to mention the fact that since no enemies were disarmed and occupying other enemies in melee combat, I was getting shot a LOT more. My dog was getting killed repeatedly, too. I won't say this passive is a dumpster fire but I'll say it seriously pales in comparison to the old one. This is honestly the worst thing about this "update", in my opinion.

One final note is that if you are using Absorb or Assimilate, Nyx has no passive at all!

Second, Mind Control. I actually don't mind the changes to this. However, on cast, there is no feedback on what is happening.  Something that is unfortunate, and well known and discussed, is that enemies do absolutely pitiful damage to each other; wind-up or not. It's the same as it was before the update. Cast and forget. The speed and 1 hand casting are appreciated, though.

Third, Psychic Bolts. This has lost almost all visual feedback. Not to mention it's hilariously bad if you have no power strength. It's basically a waste of a button and energy. Couple these issues with the inability to spam it and strip defenses fully, it's very disappointing. This skill was already energy taxing when spammed, too. Were they afraid Nyx might be able to tear off armor through multiple casts? Who cares? Saryn can push one button and destroy the universe. Stuff like Mesa exists. Why the fear?

Also, without the Radiation, this is a dead button to me. I used this to supplement Chaos. It was especially potent long-range in the Plains and Orb Vallis. If I wanted to kill enemies, I would just use my guns. Anyone who played Nyx knew she wasn't built for damage. I've said all I want to on this.

Lastly, Absorb. I didn't bother to test this at all since the base functionality is the same. Ergo, this is completely useless most of the time. Not to mention it spits out damage that the enemies are MORE resistant to now.

In conclusion, I'm not very happy with this. If they were trying to sell that new skin to me, they failed. Obviously, everyone's mileage may vary and that's fine. This is just how I see things. I won't say she's ruined, but to me, she might as well be.

DE, if you were trying to make Nyx better for the people who don't play her, that's a mistake. The people that don't play Nyx already, probably won't start playing her after something paltry like this. Even a heavy and involved rework would likely not attract many new fans. It's just how it is.

Edited December 19, 2018 by ArcKnight9202

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, Howtoshootgun said:

This rework feels kinda half baked, its also kinda worrying with all the feedback from players who played Nyx maybe all of 10 minutes then dropped her again flying around. Nyx isnt for everyone, its not the best frame but it has its niche. Players who didnt play her before wont play her now either

 

Well said here.

I've put 900 in-mission hours into Nyx and I'm not the type of person to play bad frames. Nyx was not for everyone but she was still powerful.

Sure, putting Armor strip on something will make it popular to the general player base but Nyx is a CC frame. She doesn't need to be anything else.

I made a long post about her upcoming rework and warned against some of these changes. Even posted that video. I don't know what else to do. If DE won't listen to players who prolly played Nyx more than anyone behind her design; all we can do is be sad and play Loki instead.

I'd prefer a complete revert of her rework with just some fixes to long term bugs they ignored, esp since they added more.

[ShortCat]

11 hours ago, D20 said:

-> Allow us to use psychic bolts without any form of restriction (just make sure it only targets enemies that haven't been affected already).If you're really afraid Psychic Bolts becomes OP with that, at least just make it so just pressing 2 again replaces the lastest iteration of Psychic Bolts with the new one, and remove that "hold 2 to cancel" thing.

I am really confused after this "rework". Restrictions and hold mechanic are not mentioned in the DevWorkshop. What purpose does this DevWorkshop thread serve, if all the feedback is ignored and crutial changes are concealed until release? I do not see even one of the frequently mentioned issues adressed in the final product.

[Anthraxicus]

4 hours ago, D20 said:

Any kind of added synergy is welcome. Especially that kind.

Adding a way to extend mind control's duration may be a little clunky if you consider that you already use MC while active to cancel it. I can already imagine some issues with that : try to aim at your MCed enemy to extend the duration, miss by one pixel, watch him die...  But you have a very good point nonetheless. Turning Mind Control into a toggleable would work much better to apply that idea : infinite duration with a slow energy drain over time that wouldn't block outside energy regen (but still block energy siphon). This would be ideal in my opinion.

 

You could, for example, simply aim at the general location of your MCed enemy and hold 1. Wouldn't be too clunky. Considering you can also cancel it by aiming at nothing specific, like the ground, I don't see any techinical issues.
Also, for the toggleable solution, they could make a way to drain 25 energy every 30 seconds (considering base values), instead of a slow drain, as if you were manually casting the ability, but it happens automatically.

[Xzorn]

4 hours ago, D20 said:

Adding a way to extend mind control's duration may be a little clunky if you consider that you already use MC while active to cancel it. I can already imagine some issues with that : try to aim at your MCed enemy to extend the duration, miss by one pixel, watch him die...  But you have a very good point nonetheless. Turning Mind Control into a toggleable would work much better to apply that idea : infinite duration with a slow energy drain over time that wouldn't block outside energy regen (but still block energy siphon). This would be ideal in my opinion.

 

I brought this up in my preemptive attempt to make this rework good.

I offered the idea that Nyx can drop Mind Control by using the Press-While-Aiming method and any other use would re-apply the effect at full direction on the targeted enemy. It's pretty much taken right from Garuda's 2nd ability.

[Sloan441]

15 hours ago, D20 said:

I'm going to go straight to the point : Nyx rework was very disappointing (at least in my case) and did not solve most of old Nyx's issues.

 

After a day spent fiddling with builds and some time spent with Nyx doing Nyx stuff, I'm going to have to agree. 

It's pretty underwhelming. There was potential and still is, but the implementation is lackluster. 

Why is DE so afraid of Nyx? Especially when things like Saryn and Mesa exist in the same space? This is the question I keep asking myself when playing Nyx as she is right now. 

We'll go down the list. 

The passive. Well, what does this actually do? I can't tell by playing. Not really. Give us some hard numbers, but I suspect it isn't all that much. Frankly, I'd just as soon this be reverted. Disarming could be annoying at times, but it was a concrete event and frequent enough to be useful, if occasionally undesirable. If it's supposed to be useful, make it significant and lets see some numbers: like 50% avoidance. 

Mind Control. The base duration needs to go up. A lot. Otherwise, it's just like it was before--except if you get both barrels of your TigrisP into the MC victim right away, it might actually kill a few things before expiring messily. It works, but it's underwhelming. It needs more base duration so the MC target can actually find something to kill and then actually have the time to make its presence felt. Frankly, as it stands now you're better off shooting stuff dead rather than using valuable time shooting the MC target--just like it was before the change. Oh, the one hand casting is nice, so there's that.

Psychic Bolts. It needs to be recastable. The hold-2 thing just adds clunk where clunk is neither needed nor desired. The duration isn't even all that long, so why the clunk? It should simply target the nearest six enemies whenever it is cast. Any others affected by it should regain their shields and/or armor after the newest targets get hit. Keep it simple, keep it slick. The debuff is great, but it also requires a build change. This is manageable, though you'll be wishing Primed Streamline was a thing...

Chaos. It's Chaos. You'll potentially lose some range with the new build requiring 125str, but it's spammable, so...it's a wash. New boss same as the old boss. 

Absorb. Not sure why DE bothered. You don't use Absorb to kill stuff. That hasn't been a thing for years. Reflected damage types? Sure, it's OK, but it won't change how you use this--not when its energy costs are so high and her fundamental build strategies now have to leverage 125str at the cost of either duration or efficiency, both of which are required to keep it up and running. If you want Absorb used aggressively, cut the energy costs...a lot.

This can't be a final ability pass for Nyx. She's--at best--the same was she was before and arguably worse--a great deal of added complexity for no real gain. 

[ScytodiDaedalus]

7 hours ago, D20 said:

About the absorb energy cost over time growing up with damage taken, if I remember correctly, this has been put in place to avoid cheesy gameplay consisting of using Absorb and only Absorb for the whole mission. Perhaps that energy cost could be capped, or Absorb should go back at being duration based instead of toggleable and get a similar threatment to Harrow's covenant (Absorb for a small while with explosion at the end, and then you get a buff for a duration). 

Well there's hardly much cheesing in terms of AFK to Usefulness ratio, since you can accomplish the exact same thing for less effective duration than Limbo, I've had Limbo's just afk and do nothing leeching in the rift and with Nyx you can also press 4 wait and do nothing, it's still leeching anyhow unless you put good use to it.
What I mean with all of this the fact that people can cheese with it shouldn't be a factor to add such restraining costs to the ability, else they could remove Limbo entirely just because he's cheesy... but no.

[LascarCapable]

Il y a 6 heures, Anthraxicus a dit :

Also, for the toggleable solution, they could make a way to drain 25 energy every 30 seconds (considering base values), instead of a slow drain, as if you were manually casting the ability, but it happens automatically.

Why would you do that ? There's absolutely nothing wrong with the slow energy drain from the toggle system. Draining your energy by bursts of 25 every 30 seconds sounds as strange as that "hold 2 to cancel" feature.

Il y a 5 heures, Xzorn a dit :

 

I brought this up in my preemptive attempt to make this rework good.

I offered the idea that Nyx can drop Mind Control by using the Press-While-Aiming method and any other use would re-apply the effect at full direction on the targeted enemy. It's pretty much taken right from Garuda's 2nd ability.

In order to do that, you need to point your reticle at your target to "select" it, and press 2. The part about "selecting the target" is the "annoying" part : you have to be precise and turn towards your target, which is time consuming and doesn't allow you to do it on the go in many scenarios. It's acceptable for Garuda because she's able to stack that ability up to three times, so the game somehow needs to know what you are targeting, and you will rarely stack all the three iterations anyway. But in Nyx's case, you can only have a single MCed target no matter what. Unless you suggest that we should be able to have multiple MCed target, having to point to your MCed enemy in the current itération shouldn't be necessary, because the game should know what it must disable when you press MC again. You don't need that "aim at enemy to disable" step, it complexifies the act of cancelling MC while it technically shouldn't be needed (unless a dev says otherwise).

[Anthraxicus]

Just now, D20 said:

Why would you do that ? There's absolutely nothing wrong with the slow energy drain from the toggle system. Draining your energy by bursts of 25 every 30 seconds sounds as strange as that "hold 2 to cancel" feature.

 

Because it seems DE can't code energy regen and energy drain to work together. See Nezha 1st ability for reference.