Split Chamber: Redundant And Barrier To Endgame

[Malaheart]

Edit: Changed the title to me more descriptive and less inflammatory.

 

Please read before you post, I know this is going to be an inflammatory topic to some but it is something I truly see as a problem in Warframe!

 

Note: Split Chamber, Barrel Diffusion and Hell's Chamber are all one in the same to me. When I speak of Split Chamber unless otherwise specified I include all three of these mods.

 

There is a scaling issue in Warframe when it comes to weapons and mods. Damaging powers are undesirable because they almost always can't live up to the damage of guns. The developer has had to institute crazy high levels of damage reduction for enemies just so they will survive more than one shot. Damage staging has had to be introduced on some bosses to prevent them from dropping out of the sky like rocks. There is an issue with fully modded weapons, one that I feel is breaking the game. I believe that Split Chamber is that issue and is the cause of these Woes.

 

The damage dealt by a unranked gun (low end) vs rank 30 gun (mid range) is pretty large. But it pales in comparison to the damage gap between a rank 30 gun and a maxed out reactored rank 60 gun (top end). Split Chamber mods are really only worth equipping at close to max fusion rank to get the most out of there point cost. And at 15 points for a max Split Chamber (90%) you can see why the gap exists. Without a polarity slot a max rank Split Chamber would take up a full half of the mod points available to a rank 30 gun. That does not really leave room for anything else once you socket a modest level Serration mod and a Piercing Hit. So all the fun utility mods are out the window and yet you are still are barley better off than just putting a couple elemental mods on. This is because Split Chamber is all about scaling off multiple damage mods. With a rank 60 gun you have plenty of space to socket every damage mod in the game at modest to max fusion rank and maybe a utility mod or two. This effectively doubles all damage dealt by your shots while allowing you to keep mods such as crit and rate of fire. This is what creates the massive power gap that Warframe suffers from in it's endgame. It's not halving too many mod points It's halving a x2 damage mod.

 

The bottom line is Split Chamber mods are nonviable at low levels and scale too well at high levels to be a balanced part of Warframe. They are the reason why the end game is ether too easy or too hard. It all just Depending on if you have a Split Chamber or not. So let's get rid of Split Chamber so we can remove all the silliness DE is having to do just to keep enemies alive. And maybe just maybe make other utility modes viable for once.

 

Note 2: I have 3 Split Chambers, 3 Barrel Diffusions and 3 Hell's Chambers.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Malaheart

[Malaheart]

My apologies to the community, this was my attempt at light heartily getting the inevitable comments out the way while trying to reserve space for for commenting on good points people make within this thread. It was a mistake and one that I shall not make again.

 

Just a quick clarification to my hastily made point earlier. The idea is not just to remove Split Chamber mods. It is to remove them and then scale the enemies so without the expectation of players having this mod. This would bring health and armor (with the new system hopefully) to a point where other sources of damage other than guns (Melee and warframe powers) become relevant.

 

And to those who think removing Split Chamber will make weapons nonviable. I have this to say. If a weapon requires a 15 point mod JUST to be viable, it is a broken weapon. All Split Chamber does is obfuscate that fact behind the crutch it has become. So let's get rid of it and fix the actual issues with the weapon.

 

I found this quote on the third page and thought it was good enough to round off my point with. It is by gell, and sadly I can not use normal quote feature for this (because I can't or i'm too incompetent) so I'll have to copy and past it here. It is unmodified and a direct copy. I hope you don't mind gell.

 

gell, on 10 Sept 2013 - 6:05 PM, said:

"I agree, but this is not the first thread about this, and so, here are the usual responses (all found in this thread already!).

 

- Someone will tell you to just not use it. This is bad logic because of the OP's reasons, which is that the game was balanced around having super scaling damage on weapons. It's a bad addition to the game that affected other things, so you can't just not use the one thing. The point was to remove it from the game, and rebalance accordingly.

- Someone will always say "good luck" fighting super high level enemies. This is a problem with armor/health scaling. No matter what, with out current system, you will eventually do nominal damage to the enemy, so it's a poor argument to imply that multishot or any super damage increasing abilities are needed. If E added super multishot mod, someone would then just tack on another 100 levels as an argument that without that super multishot mod, you couldn't go another 100 waves. So it actually is the mod that is the issue, because it exists, stuff was scaled to work with it, and then it becomes a necessity because you're weak without it.

- There are always some who say they love multishot, so "no." But since they have no actual argument, you can ignore them.

- Someone will tell you to hold out for the future. In this case, it's true armor 2.0 is coming. But the question is if it matters much. As the OP pointed out, damage for weapons scales way more than damage on abilities (this might be an issue with abilities, but whichever the case, it's imbalanced between each other).

- And every so often, you will get someone who understands the problem. There's one on the first page of this thread, aside from the OP.

- Someone suggests something wildly different to solve the issue, in this case, damage mods being preferred over utility. These are tough but something for DE to think about.

 

Multishot allows primaries and secondaries the ability to scale way up in damage. I've played long enough to know multishot has been around for a long time, before the card system was around. Due to this, the game has definitely been balanced around enemies being able to survive highly damage modded weapons. It means not having multishot is a huge game breaker in terms of balance. Since damage abilities don't scale up in this fashion (not even with Focus), it leaves them out of the higher level content. You end up needing all the damage mods to even put a dent in really high levels, and eventually, if you do something like Endless Defense or Survival, none of that matters anyway because enemies will all be higher than even the multishots and serrations/hornet strikes can handle. So why have multishot, the magical bullet mod?

 

I admit I use multishot, but it's not hypocritical because of the arguments already stated. It's a required for higher level stuff. So does this mean I don't want higher level stuff? No, it just means that there shouldn't be a giant gap between guns, melee, and warframe damage abilities. Note that most forms of utility do increase damage in some way, but they tend to be more quality of life improvements, or require skill/aim/knowledge. Faster reload is not "damage" but it helps you get back in the fight faster. Putting up a shield is not "damage" but it allows you some breathing room to maybe take better aim for a headshot/crit. Even Nova's Antimatter Drop, while super powerful, requires work put into it for it to really shine (helped by multishot mods!). Mutlishot is just straight damage, and while I think maybe the damage mods themselves are a bit much, multishot is wholly unnecessary on top of that.

 

It may not be easily understandable to the multishot defense squad, but imagine if there were 8 multishot style mods. Some might think this would be amazing, but it would just really show how far outclassed anything else is compared to the weapon filled with multishots. The game would scale up in armor/health, instead of being more interesting, and nothing else would compare. If you can't understand that, you might want to leave this thread now, and stay out of balance discussions until you figure it out."

 

Again this is gell not my self full credit goes to him for the quote.

 

Thank you all for your reply and thoughts.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Malaheart

[Caramelaion]

ok so then you can just sell them and enjoy warframe XD

[Jugganatha]

Armor 2.0 is coming, but I don't think it includes the removal of multishot.

 

Sorry bro :( 

[Stormandreas]

Ok, so how on earth is Split chamber breaking the game?
Where are you getting Rank 60 weapons from? The max is 30.

There is nothing wrong with Split Chamber or the likes. The reason they are high points for what they do is because they are incredibly powerful.

[taiiat]

hm, this is a fair point. though, Multishot is cool, it does make itself too necessary. and if we didn't have them, other aspects of the game would instantly seem more viable. that being said, quite a few weapons would need a new balance point if Multishot mods were no longer a thing.

but, maybe this is best for Warframe in the long run, to make powers, melee, and guns all a relatively equal choice at any point in the gameplay.

 

however, this is more than a major change to Warframe, this would rebuild the game from the ground up. we should wait for U10 to see if this will be necessary still before we try to go about rebuilding the game yet again ;)

Edited September 10, 2013 by taiiat

[Stormandreas]

First.

 

No you can't get rid of Split Chamber!!!!!!

 

TLDR

Also, why make a thread, then comment first saying they can't get rid of Split Chamber. Stop being such a hypocrite.

[notionphil]

I agree with your sentiment but it's not just split chamber thats causing the problem.

 

It's the entire mod system. It's currently built around stacking as much damage as you can squeeze in and leaving a little hint of utility if you have the points left over.

 

You should only have room for X offensive mods (serration/split/chamber/elementals), Y tactical mods (quickdraw, split trigger, ammo etc) and Z specialization mods (more potent stun, zoom, other cool effects etc), with X, Y and Z varying on each weapon.

 

This would help balance and give more depth/variance to weapons.

[Maou]

Good luck trying to fend off those lvl 200+ enemies.

 

Dont even think about saying your acrid will help.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Fammia

[Dreamwalk3r]

I agree with your sentiment but it's not just split chamber thats causing the problem.

 

It's the entire mod system. It's currently built around stacking as much damage as you can squeeze in and leaving a little hint of utility if you have the points left over.

 

You should only have room for X offensive mods (serration/split/chamber/elementals), Y tactical mods (quickdraw, split trigger, ammo etc) and Z specialization mods (more potent stun, zoom, other cool effects etc), with X, Y and Z varying on each weapon.

 

This would help balance and give more depth/variance to weapons.

This would only make even fewer weapons viable. No, no and no.

[Cryp2Nite]

Just no.

[MaxImpact]

 

HECK NO.

Edited September 10, 2013 by MaxImpact

[se05239]

If anything, they should buff Split Chamber to 100% multishot at max rank, instead of just 90%.

[101blubb]

Good luck trying to fend off those lvl 200+ enemies.

 

Dont even think about saying your acrid will help.

 

Yes, those are ohh-so important for 99% of the game.

 

I agree with the OP in that it's pointless to have the illusion of actual choice. Also, why are people assuming that, if multishot got scrapped, they wouldn't rebalance enemies as a whole? Get rid of multishot and halve enemy hitpoints, et voila. [disclaimer: I do not think they should just halve enemy hitpoints, it was merely an example]

Edited September 10, 2013 by 101blubb

[MrCranky_BR]

Ermm, yeah. Because low lvl guns is what you take to fight low lvl enemies.

 

Maxed weapons with potatoes and forma, the ones you work on and build up, the ones you equip a maxed multishot on, are the weapons you take to fight the high lvl enemies such as the ones found on T3 Defense.

 

Sooo... why does that mean that multishot has to go again? Because you can't use it at the levels you don't need it?

 

It's one of the most common concepts of games like this: progression.

[Ozais]

yeah how does it break it i do not see how can it can that mod helps alot of guns out for the high levels

Edited September 10, 2013 by junkbot2014

[Extinction_Engine]

I wouldn't mind them to disappear, since the damage overhaul would make the other sources more viable. Hopefully.

[A1CZERO]

I find it stupid that there are so many mandatory mods that you only have like 2 or 3 spots for other things. Having so many +damage mods with no reason to not use them is the problem. Not just multishot mods.

Removing it without changing a lot of things would just make killing high level enemies tougher for no reason.(even though there is no reason to have to kill very very high level enemies people would still complain anyway)

[wkfire]

You have a point. Multishot is now a must in every weapon. But thats the same logic for Serration and any other elemental mods (fire, ice, electric and AP). If it is removed, there will still not be a balance in choosing between damage and utility mods. 

[_Rue_]

That's kinda stupid. The dps gap is not due to split chamber. It's the catalyst. >_<

 

multi shot (15) damage (14) is 29. That fits with in an un-potatoed weapon without slots.

 

with more capacity i can add AP, Freeze, Shred and so on.

[matto]

[Altey]

No 

[Tudi69]

it's an endgame thing, endgame you do expect to see a difference compared to a lvl 1 noob, may that be split chamber or a simple chewing gum

[noneuklid]

It seems more practical to just limit damage mods to one type.  Or... well, there are some other options.  But maybe that's for later, and another full post.

[OvAeons]

well i have yet to find a split cham cham (@ 200hrs), but i also cannot really use any primary in higher-ish levels which kinda sucks... at least i have hells cham cham, barrel diffusion and lethal torrent. so i have a lot of fun with twin gremlins!