Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

The game's outdated horde-shooting mechanics are showing (Challenge Discussion)


Tellakey
 Share

Recommended Posts

1/19/19Bumping this thread in light of the inner discussion on challenge mentioned in the latest Devstream. I feel this thread has brought a constructive discussion about what makes up an authentic difficulty. Tons of good ideas by tons of players. DE, please take note.

The Profit-Taker fight, as any high-level mission, belies the game's biggest flaw: horde-shooting. Where other games call for calculated movement, an ebb and flow between defense and offense, and just generally using your smarts, Warframe is a mess reliant on statistics. The bigger your number the longer you persist, skills be damned.

This both mitigates the sense of satisfaction a player earns for overcoming a hurdle like the Profit-Taker, at least in my case, and significantly relegates the pool of viable Warframes at high-level missions to a handful. Vauban's being the least played Warframe nails this on the head - players can't use strategy, it is useless in this game. Players only use big numbers - frames like Saryn, Nidus, Mesa, Volt for offense, frames like Rhino, Limbo, Nyx, Inaros for defense. A niche frame built around tactics creates an impediment in a game where booms and bwaaazzz are where it's at, and even these prove fragile in missions where enemies can 1-shot your entire shield and health pools absent a buff.

The horde in 'horde-shooter' is also an impediment to progress. One cannot feasibly hope to handle a throng of mobs all shooting at you 360, all while setting up traps, hampering your abilities, draining your shields, health and energy. The only way one may last in such conditions entails a spasm of disjointed hopping around while shooting randomly with AoE weapons, spamming your stronger ability. The Profit-Taker is a perfect showcase of this phenomenon.

The combat system is fundamentally flawed. DE, you must move away from horde-shooting into calculated, smart combat a la Mass Effect. Take inspirations from the likes of Dark Souls, For Honor, Monster Hunter - games that demand the player to think - and forego the Diablos and Skyrims of the gaming industry. No, I am not saying become those games - that would be ridiculous - I am saying learn from them.

Melee 3.0, on the surface, appears to be a step in the right direction. Gone are the mindless combos locking you into an inflexible state. Now you can choose which exact maneuver to employ. Clap clap, more of this, less of damage mods.

I love this game and want it to evolve. It pains me to see all of your creativity bogged down by a flawed foundation.

Best of luck.

Edited by Tellakey
  • Like 14
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Tellakey said:

Take inspirations from games like Dark Souls, For Honor, Monster Hunter, games that demand the player to think, and forego the Diablos and Skyrims of the gaming industry. 

Just totally change the game. Dump all the work done on it and start with a new genre of game. The idea that Melee 3.0 is somehow a step towards making Warframe less Diablo and more Dark Souls is ludicrous.

3 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

I love this game and want it to evolve.

This is not evolution. This is revolution. Ask yourself if you actually like the game, because it sounds like you don't.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Just totally change the game. Dump all the work done on it and start with a new genre of game. The idea that Melee 3.0 is somehow a step towards making Warframe less Diablo and more Dark Souls is ludicrous.

This is not evolution. This is revolution. Ask yourself if you actually like the game, because it sounds like you don't.

I also love Skyrim but think its combat system is horrible. I love Subnautica but think some textures are inconsistent. I love For Honor but think certain game modes are unfair. I love the Witcher but don't like the clunky movement. I love No Man's Sky but can't enjoy the world without the ability to walk slowly. I love Monster Hunter: World but think it lacks in QoL features. I love Metal Gear Solid V but think the detection system is silly. I can go on and on.

I can love a game and appreciate its flaws.

Edited by Tellakey
  • Like 13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Plenty of things they could do, but they're certainly seem to be sitting on their hands in regards to crucial updates to core gameplay.

It's getting pretty easy to see they're finding more and more clever ways to subvert their own damage system and such so they don't have to fix it for a little while longer, but it's just making their job harder in the long run.
I've practically given up on any new content they release, knowing no matter how pretty it looks, I'm still going to have to suffer through the dilapidated nuances of the damage system, and that kind of kills any real motivation to play this game no matter how much new content they throw in.

I get that it's a massive undertaking, but eventually all their new players are gonna turn into veterans, and veterans are going to grind the game down to its basics where they're see what this game is truly made of.  And one by one they'll all discover that this game is OLD, and it SHOWS.  And they'll need to fix it, but by then, there'll be so much code they'll need to change, they might as well start a new game and leave Warframe to burn.

And that, will be the real tragedy.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Your stated flaw is the entire basis of the game's development up to this point.

Not really. Changes could be made to maintain the core attraction of "ninjas in space" while improving it immensely. It mostly has to do with designing tilesets with tactical positioning in mind, reducing the number of mobs on the map and overhauling the damage system to accommodate that. Sure, other tweaks all over are bound to follow, but that won't make it a whole different game. It's just a massively overdue rework. Warframe is more than just its combat system.

Edited by Tellakey
  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

Not really. Changes could be made to maintain the core attraction of "ninjas in space" while improving it immensely. It mostly has to do with designing tilesets with tactical positioning in mind, reducing the number of mobs on the map and overhauling the damage system to accommodate that. Sure, other tweaks all over are bound to follow, but that won't make it a whole different game. It's just a massively overdue rework. Warframe is more than just its combat system.

Horde gameplay is just as much a part of warframe as the ninjas in space thing. The game is built upon the power fantasy of you versus a massive horde of plebs. Your changes would strip that out and make the player feel weak.

While I think that the gameplay needs to be improved you're just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Horde gameplay can work, DE just needs to put some effort in. The problem with the game right now is that the enemies are too reliant on damage and health scaling rather than the introduction of new and interesting enemy types with abilities that work together to provide interesting challenge. This along with the bad AI is what I think lets the gameplay down.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, ragingIMP said:

Horde gameplay is just as much a part of warframe as the ninjas in space thing. The game is built upon the power fantasy of you versus a massive horde of plebs. Your changes would strip that out and make the player feel weak.

While I think that the gameplay needs to be improved you're just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Horde gameplay can work, DE just needs to put some effort in. The problem with the game right now is that the enemies are too reliant on damage and health scaling rather than the introduction of new and interesting enemy types with abilities that work together to provide interesting challenge. This along with the bad AI is what I think lets the gameplay down.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't agree either. If DE can make it work with a crap-ton of enemies onscreen, then go ahead DE, impress me. I personally don't see how they can fix the gameplay with 123248 bullets being fired at you from all direction and no matter where you are you take damage. But hey, I'm just one man with one mind. Maybe DE can pull it off.

And yes, I have considered the power fantasy. Personally, I hate it, I'm more into being the underdog. Power fantasy was never much of a draw for me when it comes to Warframe - it was all the rest. I do think that 1 vs 20 is no less badass compared to 1 vs 50. If DE does away with the number of the enemies on the map the power fantasy is still there, albeit in a lesser capacity.

Edited by Tellakey
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't agree either. If DE can make it work with a crap-ton of enemies onscreen, then go ahead DE, impress me. I personally don't see how they can fix the gameplay with 123248 bullets being fired at you from all direction and no matter where you are you take damage. But hey, I'm just one man with one mind. Maybe DE can pull it off.

And yes, I have considered the power fantasy. Personally, I hate it, I'm more into being the underdog. Power fantasy was never much of a draw for me when it comes to Warframe - it was all the rest. I do think that 1 vs 20 is no less badass compared to 1 vs 50. If DE does away with the number of the enemies on the map the power fantasy is still there, be in a lesser capacity.

I think maybe what I'm most against is slowing warframe down into another 3rd person cover shooter. The unique appeal of warframe for me is the parkour and fast movement. If anything I think DE should double down on this, the ultimate skill in warframe should be the ability to move around quickly and skillfully to allow less enemies to fire on you while still being able to fire back with decent accuracy. Now the enemies would need a lot of work to support this like a maxium turn rate to reward you for getting behind them.

  • Like 15
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, ragingIMP said:

I think maybe what I'm most against is slowing warframe down into another 3rd person cover shooter. The unique appeal of warframe for me is the parkour and fast movement. If anything I think DE should double down on this, the ultimate skill in warframe should be the ability to move around quickly and skillfully to allow less enemies to fire on you while still being able to fire back with decent accuracy. Now the enemies would need a lot of work to support this like a maxium turn rate to reward you for getting behind them.

Yes, please. No disagreement there.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, before things spiral down into the same old argument I've seen a dozen times about Quantity vs Quality when it comes to enemies, let me just say that you can have your cake and eat it too, in this situation.
As long as they build some good infrastructure in the core gameplay, that is.

Everything in the game can be boiled down to a Time-To-Kill variable, for both enemies and players, and determining the Difficulty at any point in the game is just a matter of comparing the Time-To-Kill a player and Time-To-Kill the enemies.
If it takes 10 seconds to kill the enemy and 5 seconds to kill the player, no matter what the enemy is doing, what attacks or abilities it's using, that is an easy, quantifiable way to determine how hard it's going to be to win that particular fight, since you'll be working twice as hard as the enemy.

Doesn't matter how many enemies there are either, as long as you can stick it in an algorithm, the game'll basically balance itself.
If 1 enemy takes 50 seconds to kill you, then 10 of those enemies would theoretically take 5 seconds to kill you, and perhaps it takes you 1 second to kill each one, thus 10 seconds, so it's exactly the same as the previous situation, except there are 10 of them instead of 1.

All it requires, is building a good damage system so that you can process all those numbers into something predictable.
If everything related to damage in the game is quantifiable and predictable, you can put it in an algorithm, and the algorithm provide limitless, effortless tweaking, so that it won't matter what you're fighting.

You'd be able to control how long the fights last, how many enemies you fight, how tricky the fight is.
And more importantly, you'd be able to give players a reasonable window of opportunity to save themselves no matter the difficulty or situation, instead of the instant-deaths that keep happening.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Il y a 5 heures, Tellakey a dit :

 while shooting randomly with AoE weapons, spamming your stronger ability.

This is the main problem of Warframe. AoE weapons and nuke abilities a overwhelming, to easy too spam and too efficient. Just by balancing it the gain will far less mindless and CC frames will rise again.

But be sure that a lot of players will HATE this and would try to blow themselves at DE's office for them to not respect their time investement and their right to be overpowerd and press one button to win.

Edited by (PS4)Herrwann69
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

This is the main problem of Warframe. AoE weapons and nuke abilities a overwhelming, to easy too spam and too efficient. Just by balancing it the gain will far less mindless and CC frames will rise again.

But be sure that a lot of players will HATE this and would try to blow themself at DE's office for them to not respect their time investement and their right to be overpowerd and press one button to win.

Yup, we saw something similar back when DE had planned to remove damage mods to ensure better fluidity in builds. Of course, the crowd went all pitchforks and torches and so forced DE to backtrack.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What makes me sad about Profit-Taker is that the fight is almost amazing: the bones for a great boss fight are already there, with the big, telegraphed moves, vast scale and build-up. If everything else were fine, this could be one of the best fights in the game, testing the player's ability to dodge and maneuver around a powerful enemy. As it stands, though, the fight is incredibly messy and more of a gear check than anything else, because the sheer amount of high-damage enemies, knockdown moves, and guaranteed damage means it's practically impossible to keep track of every relevant part of the fight, which in turn means the only frames who can reliably complete the bounty are tanky frames.

When Fortuna first launched, one of the first criticisms I had for the enemies was that their design was simply not made for Warframe's current combat: DE clearly wanted enemies that were individually powerful, with units like the Trencher, Terra Shockwave Moa or Provisor each having a bevy of crowd control moves that frequently staggered or knocked down the player, but these enemies simply cannot be healthy to deal with when the game typically flings over a dozen units at players to deal with at the same time. Consequently, when there are hordes of these units milling about with nullifier shields on top, all while players have their attention focused on a giant death spider, it's impossible to focus on every priority unit at the same time, and the end result is that players get punished based on completely unrealistic expectations. What could have been a thrilling, climactic fight becomes a clown fiesta of excessive damage, knockdowns and poorly-conveyed invincibility phases, where the only saving grace to the whole affair is that players are so overpowered that they can still barge through any situation regardless of whether or not they know what they're doing.

With that said, when the discussion on whether or not Warframe should be a horde shooter gets brought up, I feel the framing of the discussion is wrong: when players ask whether Warframe should have horde mode combat or more tactical and cerebral play, I personally think it can have both, depending on the faction we're fighting. The Infested, for example, absolutely deserve to play out like a horde mode, because the faction is a literal horde of deformed monsters that all rush the player. The Corpus, on the other hand, are very poorly-suited for horde mode combat, as it is simply not realistic to give every unit a bunch of special abilities that all require the player's attention, under threat of punishment, but then throw literal dozens of those units around at the same time.

Because of this, I think there needs to be a drastic rebalancing to enemy distributions and stats: the Infested should probably stay the way they are, but the Corpus need to have their numbers severely cut down, and their health, shield and Affinity values increased proportionately. If we had to fight only half the Corpus units we do now, but each unit had double health and double shields, and gave double Affinity, fighting them would feel much healthier: not only would there be a much more reasonable number of units to deal with at any given time, these units could actually get to do smarter stuff, as they'd be less likely to die instantly (and if they still do, that only speaks to how overpowered our damage currently is, and how that damage needs a nerf). As a general rule, the more complex the enemies you fight, the fewer of them you should have to deal with at any given time, otherwise there comes a point where there's simply too much information for a human being to be able to process at any given time (and that's the point where gameplay no longer becomes a test of skill so much as a cheese fest). There's more I'd like to do, as I personally feel all hard CC such as staggers and knockdowns should be removed against players, but at the very least, changing the distributions and stats of Corpus units would allow the faction to emphasize more tactical play without cheesing players with their sheer numbers.

Edited by Teridax68
  • Like 15
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think an important point to remember here is that Warframe is a horde shooter first and foremost, the same way Payday 2 or L4D or Space Marine Exterminatus is. It's not a cover shooter, it's not a tactical shooter, it's not Dark Souls. The combat system is always going to be arcadey and simplistic, success is always going to depend to a larger extent on what tools you brought into the fight with you than how you actually use them. And there's nothing wrong with any of that. Not all games have to be heavily reliant on cover or stamina meters or duels with individual enemies - some work best when you grab the biggest gun you have and shoot the biggest clump of bad guys you can find with it. I don't even feel the game needs to particularly rely on the movement system in actual combat as I'm not a fan of bunny-hopping. The game CAN work the way it's designed right now, as long as it offers enough variety and is well-balanced.

The problem is that the game's current balance point is very one-sided. I guess in an attempt to create "challenge," DE have ended up reducing difficulty down to a gear check. Do you have enough resistance and enough damage? Cool, then you win regardless of what you're fighting. Corpus, Grenier, Sentients, Terra, bosses - doesn't matter. Oh, sure, Eidolons require Amps and Orbs require Arch Guns as a gimmick, but you're still looking at damage in vs. damage out no matter the context. Like I said, that could work as long as different enemies, different factions, different encounters, etc. required a different approach or at least benefited from different gear. But they don't. On the one hand, players are given enough straight-up damage to ignore Grenier armour and Corpus shields, enough survivability to tank damage from all sources. DE seem to have realised this and just given up on creating unique faction as a result.

Orb Vallis in general is one giant example of how not to do difficulty. In theory, the Terra CORPUS faction is a Corpus faction, but they don't really work like one. In my experience, the strengths of the corpus are their shields and their heavy reliance on control. Knockback, slows, stuns, Nullifier bubbles and so on. Their units are generally not intended to be "tough" or even particularly mobile, but rather rely on debilitating the player and hiding behind technological shields and barriers. So here come the Terra Corpus with a wide variety of armoured boss units, high-health tanky units, high-mobility rushers, long-range artillery, etc... And they don't play like Corpus any more. They play like Grenier. In fact, they play like Grenier AND Corpus AND Infested, almost like another Orokin faction. They do all of the things all of the time, and thus have no identity of their own, no unique set of gear that's good against them, no unique approach to fighting them that isn't just how you approach the Tusk Grenier.

A horde shooter can work just fine with simple mechanics as long as it offers enough variety, but that requires building player gear and enemy factions with an eye towards diversity. There shouldn't be factions that do everything, there shouldn't be guns that do everything. If anything, I'd have liked to see more of a diversity between the factions, where the Grenier for instance would send relatively few, very tough enemies while Infested would predominantly consist on a massive number of weak enemies. That way, enemy number and the potency of AoE would vary with faction, instead of every faction swarming players with large groups of enemies.

Point being, I'm of the opinion that the combat system is fine as it is, but variety in encounters is where it suffers.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Spectre-8 said:

Inb4 "See you in Anthem "  posts 😂

Topics like mine are partly owing to the rise of potential competition that seems to challenge the standards. I recently finished Monster Hunter World's campaign and started the endless grind. After a hundred hours or so I thought "Wow, I don't mind doing this forever." And that made me realize "Wow... I don't feel the same way about Warframe. Both are grind-fests, both rely on RNG, but here is one that's satisfactory." 

Edited by Tellakey
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i definitely agree that warframe is primarily a horde shooter however i dont think adding these boss fights is a bad idea as it adds more character and detail into the worlds its set in. tho i absolutely still think they should improve their horde shooter style by atleast putting in more mechanic based enemies to prevent as much cheesing as we do, give us another progression checkpoint where enemies lvl are higher, or even an endgame that is no longer of upgrading at all where even team comp should matter to atleast every frame should have relevance to and not "oh this frame is only good at this 1 area in the game". the main places we even see enemies above 100(which idk why DE think they are the hardest thing wen lvl 100 is still brain dead ez) is usually kuva flood and sortie t3 while their endgame attempts like onslaught and arbitration still feel like its a mode wit training wheels for the newbies. right now the game is just farm and thats it once u hit the wall the game is basically over with no real ending scene, so where is the part where its no longer of progression but a matter of a even deeper learning curve to actually use everything i farmed to their fullest extent? 

Edited by ShenRyujin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, ragingIMP said:

Horde gameplay is just as much a part of warframe as the ninjas in space thing. The game is built upon the power fantasy of you versus a massive horde of plebs. Your changes would strip that out and make the player feel weak.

Nah I dont think that’s true. It also isn’t a matter of hord or no horde, the corrupted and infested fit that bill. The game (desperately) needs variety.

After my daily grind chores, I want to be able to say, “hmm what place do I feel like going to, in mood, style (parkour rich, flat, strong light and dark, gravity variety or gravity variety in mission plus parkour, exposed, cover) or enemy type and level, what kind of thing to I want to crush, or tangle with? And what sort of fun thing (possibly useful to sell, or a cosmetic) will drop for doing so? Or just friggn make loot tables that delight and suprise like 8-10% of the time with anything.

Horde enemies are basically subject to max serration and win on the star chart, as one streamer (reaper hunter) pointed out. That leaves quite a few mod slots for anything else. (His remark made me realize the community has fetishized min max, which is mostly of value in endless missions, but is really meaningless on the star chart. All those slots could be used to target flavor content)

What Warframe lacks is the spice of an elite mob, variation on missions (god am i tired of the star chart blandness — each moon/planet could have more of a theme —, and Tyl Regor style foes you to tangle with in mission. )I liked fighting him, and I think that view is shared. Great lines, and mildly fun mechanics. More foes like him which can scale (or be subject to mission modifiers) appeal.

Vallis takes a tiny stab at the mission variety problem but much more is needed. The turret spiders are a bit of a start, but I would like something invocable too.

Grind is about efficiency and bite sized content, and at that point I simpy want to get in and out and be done. The spiders are a nusance.

Invocable bosses are for giggles and challenge. Insult some local nasty Corpus supervisor. The insults or mods or syandana invoking modifiers (as a mechanism), just some means to do it.

Loot midgets or Tubbies (yes, too many hours in bl2), but cast into warframe style.

In all this the matchmaking or recruiting system might need a brush up in all this.

Another thing comes to mind. BL2 has a strong narrative. Revisiting any element with strong moments was or is one of the joys of playing it.. Hero’s pass, Eridium Blight, Sawtooth Cauldron, The Dust, the slaughter domes. You can go back there for the ambiance and the farm. None of DE’s quest lines have that.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the assessment, but not the proposed solutions.

Horde-shooting isn't actually incompatible with thoughtful or skillful play. The biggest problem with Warframe is its lack of balance.

Players (and consequently enemies) have come to rely solely on stats because of DE's apparent inability to meaningfully restrict players' arsenal without it becoming intrusive.

We have energy to block casting spam, but DE has failed to regulate acquisition of energy to the point that it is mostly vestigial.

We have ammunition to limit powerful weapons, but DE has given us upgrades that make it effectively infinite.

These  types of extreme failures in limiting mechanics combined with power creep have created a suffocating game environment where enemies MUST be capable of OHKOing players or otherwise ignoring the established rules to offer any sort of illusory challenge.

If Warframe is to grow in terms of gameplay quality, we need balance. We need our limiters to be functional without being oppressive. We need damage output to be adequate without being excessive. And we need a spread of enemies that range from easily-disposable fodder (satisfying the desire to mow things down) to elites requiring a more strategic or skilled approach (satisfying the desire to actually engage with the game). Even simplistic shooters like Left 4 Dead have managed to cover these bases.

I think the new deployable Arch-guns and state of most bosses illustrate the problem rather clearly. Warframe appears to give players lots of options but glosses over the fact that only 1-2 of those options are really viable for a given task (without much variety in that pool either), and DE resorts to simply disabling problematic features far too often.

Warframe has great freedom of movement, but when it comes to progression and combat the game is basically stuck to rails.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Tellakey said:

Yup, we saw something similar back when DE had planned to remove damage mods to ensure better fluidity in builds. Of course, the crowd went all pitchforks and torches and so forced DE to backtrack.

This is actually untrue. What was suggested was that Multishot used extra ammunition when it procced, which would have either been largely meaningless (for non rapid-fire weapons) or a ridiculously huge nerf (for rapid-fire weapons). The pitchforks came out because it really didn't solve anything in terms of "build diversity"-a 120% increase in DPS is a 120% increase in DPS and hugely more valuable than almost anything else-and just made a lot of weapons trash.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hace 20 minutos, DiabolusUrsus dijo:

I agree with the assessment, but not the proposed solutions.

Horde-shooting isn't actually incompatible with thoughtful or skillful play. The biggest problem with Warframe is its lack of balance.

This. 

DE have in their hands hundreds of tools to do this game one of best, but don´t learn about the old mistakes. Yeah fix problems (sometimes not) but after a time repeat the mistake. 

The game need to be polished. This game is a eternal mineral waiting to be a diamond. DE think that add things it´s the solutions. DE avoid the problems, always look for the easy answer. And now we are in the end of this road. You can´t skip the problems. 

The thing: 

DE can rework the enemies, and add variation or create new npcs and a reskin the new enemies for the next open world. 

DE can rework the missions and add more, or create a new bounties. 

DE can rework old maps an add more, or create a new big aerea. 

DE can rework mods, damage and improve a little the gunplay, or create new mods, and modular weapons. 

 

 

Edited by (PS4)robi191291
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, MJ12 said:

This is actually untrue. What was suggested was that Multishot used extra ammunition when it procced, which would have either been largely meaningless (for non rapid-fire weapons) or a ridiculously huge nerf (for rapid-fire weapons). The pitchforks came out because it really didn't solve anything in terms of "build diversity"-a 120% increase in DPS is a 120% increase in DPS and hugely more valuable than almost anything else-and just made a lot of weapons trash.

Not sure whether we're talking about the same thing or whether I'm misremembering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...