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The game's outdated horde-shooting mechanics are showing (Challenge Discussion)


Tellakey
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14 hours ago, Tellakey said:

Wow, I don't mind doing this forever.

I mean, that's all well and good, I like MHW too. But... all that means is that you like MHW more than Warframe. It doesn't mean you've stumbled upon some forbidden truth. It just means the game isn't for you.

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28 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

I mean, that's all well and good, I like MHW too. But... all that means is that you like MHW more than Warframe. It doesn't mean you've stumbled upon some forbidden truth. It just means the game isn't for you.

Possibly, but I think I find MH:W's grind satisfactory because it always keeps things interesting, the challenge is always there and it's authentic. I have no way of proving this. We'll need a neurologist for such experiments.

Edited by Tellakey
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5 hours ago, Tellakey said:

Possibly, but I think I find MH:W's grind satisfactory because it always keeps things interesting, the challenge is always there and it's authentic. I have no way of proving this. We'll need a neurologist for such experiments.

I don't think it's ever going to be possible to prove a videogame design feature in the hard mathematical sense, as videogames ultimately offer a subjective experience, but it is nonetheless possible to have consensus on certain principles (e.g. "players feel good when they receive rewards"). Beyond that, when a videogame produces a certain feeling, even if that feeling is subjective, it is nonetheless usually possible to articulate why the game produced that feeling in the first place, in terms most will be able to understand.

I don't have direct play experience with Monster Hunter: World, but just as an example, one of the potential reasons why it may feel challenging, and Warframe does not, could be because the titular monsters are entirely based around skill tests, e.g. dodging their attacks, or attacking certain parts of their body at critical times to deal more damage and/or obtain specific rewards, whereas most enemies in Warframe can easily be defeated with just pure firepower. There's still a level of preference here (not every Warframe player may want to be faced with constant or particularly stringent skill checks, even though that's likely what MH:W players would ask for), but even then, there are lessons Warframe can learn from virtually any other game, not necessarily because the game is all that lacking (I'd say it's generally quite good), but simply because it'd be silly for it to ignore good or better design elsewhere, or even bad design and the consequences it brought about. Considering how Warframe just recently got an update that added a new boss, one that is very clearly meant to be a skill test (but currently isn't really), DE could definitely stand to look at where they're falling short, how other games avoid those pitfalls, and incorporate improvements into their game (which doesn't have to mean copying mechanics or systems wholesale either).

Edited by Teridax68
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I suppose fun IS technically subjective, it just seems weird that some people can enjoy certain aspects of the game.  I suspect it more comes from the fun they get elsewhere in the game blinding them to the rougher edges of the game, but who can say.

All I know, is that I don't enjoy being one-shotted by something that I can't reasonably avoid without cheese, and I don't enjoy emptying several clips into a bullet-sponge that's been perma-CC'd or is otherwise made harmless.

I could probably write a giant list of all the things I don't enjoy, but that's just going to be a waste of time as it'll get ignored like everything else.
You could make a forum game of Complete This Sentence:  I don't have fun when...

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On 2018-12-19 at 2:16 AM, Tellakey said:

The Profit-Taker fight, as any high-level mission, belies the game's biggest flaw: horde-shooting. Where other games call for calculated movement, an ebb and flow between defense and offense, and just generally using your smarts, Warframe is a mess reliant on statistics. The bigger your number the longer you persist, skills be damned.

This both mitigates the sense of satisfaction a player earns for overcoming a hurdle like the Profit-Taker, at least in my case, and significantly relegates the pool of viable Warframes at high-level missions to a handful. Vauban's being the least played Warframe nails this on the head - players can't use strategy, it is useless in this game. Players only use big numbers - frames like Saryn, Nidus, Mesa, Volt for offense, frames like Rhino, Limbo, Nyx, Inaros for defense. A niche frame built around tactics creates an impediment in a game where booms and bwaaazzz are where it's at, and even these prove fragile in missions where enemies can 1-shot your entire shield and health pools absent a buff.

The horde in 'horde-shooter' is also an impediment to progress. One cannot feasibly hope to handle a throng of mobs all shooting at you 360, all while setting up traps, hampering your abilities, draining your shields, health and energy. The only way one may last in such conditions entails a spasm of disjointed hopping around while shooting randomly with AoE weapons, spamming your stronger ability. The Profit-Taker is a perfect showcase of this phenomenon.

The combat system is fundamentally flawed. DE, you must move away from horde-shooting into calculated, smart combat a la Mass Effect. Take inspirations from the likes of Dark Souls, For Honor, Monster Hunter - games that demand the player to think - and forego the Diablos and Skyrims of the gaming industry. No, I am not saying become those games - that would be ridiculous - I am saying learn from them.

Melee 3.0, on the surface, appears to be a step in the right direction. Gone are the mindless combos locking you into an inflexible state. Now you can choose which exact maneuver to employ. Clap clap, more of this, less of damage mods.

I love this game and want it to evolve. It pains me to see all of your creativity bogged down by a flawed foundation.

Best of luck.

I don't disagree, but how about a proposed solution for this to enter the realm of constructive feedback?

Until we all can see plainly that there is a solution that rewards skill while not screwing the player base that has invested so much in the current mechanics and paid DEs bills for years, I don't know that we can hold DE accountable directly.

If you put a clear solution on the table, and we all see it, then we can bang on about how the game needs the thing, but until then you're asking DE to produce a solution that isn't there.

Learning from those games is something I'm sure they already do.

Find a solution that works for warframe and it's player base (not just the new players) is the answer.  Complaining that there is not an answer yet as if nobody was aware of this problem doesn't solve much.

My challenge is to produce a robust and well thought out alternative that doesn't screw the loyal player base that has invested in the current mechanics and company for years.

Tell me what that looks like.

Lay down the mechanics.

Show the numbers and explain why it works, why it's better and what the drawbacks are.  

Do that and I might be able to support the proposition, but until then I can't see this as anything but complaining rather than constructive criticism.

As an idea put forth on my end, having randomly spawned, procedurally generated open world mini boss encounters might help this a lot.

It wouldn't fix it, but it would add some variety to the game in the very least.

Edited by Klokwerkaos
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On 2018-12-19 at 9:16 AM, Tellakey said:

The Profit-Taker fight, as any high-level mission, belies the game's biggest flaw: horde-shooting. Where other games call for calculated movement, an ebb and flow between defense and offense, and just generally using your smarts, Warframe is a mess reliant on statistics. The bigger your number the longer you persist, skills be damned.

This both mitigates the sense of satisfaction a player earns for overcoming a hurdle like the Profit-Taker, at least in my case, and significantly relegates the pool of viable Warframes at high-level missions to a handful. Vauban's being the least played Warframe nails this on the head - players can't use strategy, it is useless in this game. Players only use big numbers - frames like Saryn, Nidus, Mesa, Volt for offense, frames like Rhino, Limbo, Nyx, Inaros for defense. A niche frame built around tactics creates an impediment in a game where booms and bwaaazzz are where it's at, and even these prove fragile in missions where enemies can 1-shot your entire shield and health pools absent a buff.

The horde in 'horde-shooter' is also an impediment to progress. One cannot feasibly hope to handle a throng of mobs all shooting at you 360, all while setting up traps, hampering your abilities, draining your shields, health and energy. The only way one may last in such conditions entails a spasm of disjointed hopping around while shooting randomly with AoE weapons, spamming your stronger ability. The Profit-Taker is a perfect showcase of this phenomenon.

The combat system is fundamentally flawed. DE, you must move away from horde-shooting into calculated, smart combat a la Mass Effect. Take inspirations from the likes of Dark Souls, For Honor, Monster Hunter - games that demand the player to think - and forego the Diablos and Skyrims of the gaming industry. No, I am not saying become those games - that would be ridiculous - I am saying learn from them.

Melee 3.0, on the surface, appears to be a step in the right direction. Gone are the mindless combos locking you into an inflexible state. Now you can choose which exact maneuver to employ. Clap clap, more of this, less of damage mods.

I love this game and want it to evolve. It pains me to see all of your creativity bogged down by a flawed foundation.

Best of luck.

 

As someone who played WF for a very long time, i'm sharing your opinion by 100%.

Do you also remember the days as "Movement 2.0" was introduced to WarFrame.
For me it has lost a lot of it's challenge right at that moment.

But WF is nonetheless a great game, made by awesome developers, so i guess there is still hope...
 

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2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think it's ever going to be possible to prove a videogame design feature in the hard mathematical sense, as videogames ultimately offer a subjective experience, but it is nonetheless possible to have consensus on certain principles (e.g. "players feel good when they receive rewards"). Beyond that, when a videogame produces a certain feeling, even if that feeling is subjective, it is nonetheless usually possible to articulate why the game produced that feeling in the first place, in terms most will be able to understand.

I don't have direct play experience with Monster Hunter: World, but just as an example, one of the potential reasons why it may feel challenging, and Warframe does not, could be because the titular monsters are entirely based around skill tests, e.g. dodging their attacks, or attacking certain parts of their body at critical times to deal more damage and/or obtain specific rewards, whereas most enemies in Warframe can easily be defeated with just pure firepower. There's still a level of preference here (not every Warframe player may want to be faced with constant or particularly stringent skill checks, even though that's likely what MH:W players would ask for), but even then, there are lessons Warframe can learn from virtually any other game, not necessarily because the game is all that lacking (I'd say it's generally quite good), but simply because it'd be silly for it to ignore good or better design elsewhere, or even bad design and the consequences it brought about. Considering how Warframe just recently got an updated that added a new boss, one that is very clearly meant to be a skill test (but currently isn't really), DE could definitely stand to look at where they're falling short, how other games avoid those pitfalls, and incorporate improvements into their game (which doesn't have to mean copying mechanics or systems wholesale either).

It is exactly as you say, Monster Hunter World demands you to keep your wits about, keep your eyes open, even listen for audible cues at times, in order to combat its titular monsters. That and every monster has its own moveset, requiring you to memorize each one and time your attacks and defenses respectively. Warframe has the potential to do this, hell, the Profit-Taker is very similar in that regard, but the other combat mechanics just drown all that potential.

 

40 minutes ago, 1ivay1 said:

Name one looter that has challenging combat/mechanics.. Just one.

 

Thing is, Warframe started out as a semi-looter. Mobility was slower, enemies fewer, damage more moderate. Horde-shooting was introduced midway into development, not as a foundation.

 

36 minutes ago, Gebuesch said:

 

As someone who played WF for a very long time, i'm sharing your opinion by 100%.

Do you also remember the days as "Movement 2.0" was introduced to WarFrame.
For me it has lost a lot of it's challenge right at that moment.

But WF is nonetheless a great game, made by awesome developers, so i guess there is still hope...
 

Thank you! That's exactly what I mean, the game started less bonkers, and while I love the progressive movement updates, some of it has indeed taken away the challenge.

Edited by Tellakey
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Just now, 1ivay1 said:

I didn't ask that though mate, did I? Warframe IS a looter, just because it was "slower" before doesn't change that fact. Name me one game from this genre that has challenging game mechanics. 

I don't care about other games. Warframe is its own beast. Name me one f2p game that is as fair as Warframe. I'm sure that some exist, but not by applying the same monetization tactics as Warframe. And thank god for that. DE has developed something special here, they don't have to abide by the industry standards, which are oftentimes detrimental to wholesome products.

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Just now, Tellakey said:

I don't care about other games. Warframe is its own beast. Name me one f2p game that is as fair as Warframe. I'm sure that some exist, but not by applying the same monetization tactics as Warframe. And thank god for that. DE has developed something special here, they don't have to abide by the industry standards, which are oftentimes detrimental to wholesome products.

I didn't say you cared about other games, I asked you to compare this game to any other of the same genre to see if what you're asking for is warranted.. It isn't. You're asking for something that goes against the core concept of looter games. 

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2 minutes ago, 1ivay1 said:

I didn't say you cared about other games, I asked you to compare this game to any other of the same genre to see if what you're asking for is warranted.. It isn't. You're asking for something that goes against the core concept of looter games. 

This mindset is too inflexible. Creativity has no rules. If something works it works, and if problems exist you have to fix them, regardless of what's acceptable or unacceptable, normal or abnormal, etc... The game changed so much over the years, it cannot be relegated to a single genre.

Edited by Tellakey
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2 hours ago, Tellakey said:

Possibly, but I think I find MH:W's grind satisfactory because it always keeps things interesting, the challenge is always there and it's authentic. I have no way of proving this. We'll need a neurologist for such experiments.

Strongly disagree there. I'm glad you're enjoying it, but gameplay like that absolutely wouldn't last for me personally in the long run. I'm fine with individual spikes in difficulty around boss fights, crescendo events and such, but a constant high level of challenging activity is MASSIVELY draining for a game that requires this much of a time investment. I can sit and do simple tasks for hours on end without feeling bored, but the moment you start demanding my full attention every second of every minute of gameplay, I burn out and I burn out hard. To me Warframe is like a marathon, whereas what you're describing is a sprint. I can do both, but I can do the former for a lot longer than the latter.

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Just now, Tellakey said:

This mindset is too inflexible. Creativity has no rules. If something works it works, and if problems exist you have to fix them, regardless of what's acceptable or unacceptable, normal or abnormal, etc... The game changed so much over the years, it cannot be relegated to a single genre.

Your mindset is just flawed, judging by your choice of words you think the core concept of this genre is "broken". Go play something else if you want the challenge to be focused in a different area. 

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Just now, 1ivay1 said:

Your mindset is just flawed, judging by your choice of words you think the core concept of this genre is "broken". Go play something else if you want the challenge to be focused in a different area. 

I'll do me and you do you. Good day.

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7 minutes ago, 1ivay1 said:

Name me one game from this genre that has challenging game mechanics. 

Name one game that has the same combination of themes, systems, and mechanics as Warframe. The more interesting question to ask here is: why can a looter game not have some measure of challenge? Nobody here is asking for Warframe to be a challenging game all the time, either, the request here is simply for some pieces of content, namely bosses, to test the player's aptitude at the game's mechanics, or at least allow players to show their mastery. There is no reason why the game cannot have both.

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Just now, Tellakey said:

I'll do me and you do you. Good day.

I really don't know what you're expecting here.. You didn't answer a simple question to justify your desire for difficult content, in the form of mobs, you then claimed that the idea of non-challenging mobs is "broken". 

You clearly DO NOT LIKE looter games.

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6 minutes ago, 1ivay1 said:

I really don't know what you're expecting here.. You didn't answer a simple question to justify your desire for difficult content, in the form of mobs, you then claimed that the idea of non-challenging mobs is "broken". 

You clearly DO NOT LIKE looter games.

What am I expecting? Why do you think I'm expecting anything? This is a discussion.

I want authentic difficulty because mindless click2win serves to make the game more and more shallow and dissatisfactory. It's such a bummer to love the world, lore, voice-acting, visuals and then have to be reminded by how broken the combat is. 

You're putting words into my mouth. When did I ever say "broken"? (no, the one above doesn't count).

And no, I'm not a fan of looter games, but Warframe is not a typical looter. Why are you so inclined on sticking to genre guidelines? By that logic movies should not evolve, stories shouldn't try new things and genre-blend is a bad idea. Interesting things are born from experimentation. 

Edited by Tellakey
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On 2018-12-19 at 9:51 AM, blazinvire said:

Plenty of things they could do, but they're certainly seem to be sitting on their hands in regards to crucial updates to core gameplay.

It's getting pretty easy to see they're finding more and more clever ways to subvert their own damage system and such so they don't have to fix it for a little while longer, but it's just making their job harder in the long run.
I've practically given up on any new content they release, knowing no matter how pretty it looks, I'm still going to have to suffer through the dilapidated nuances of the damage system, and that kind of kills any real motivation to play this game no matter how much new content they throw in.

I get that it's a massive undertaking, but eventually all their new players are gonna turn into veterans, and veterans are going to grind the game down to its basics where they're see what this game is truly made of.  And one by one they'll all discover that this game is OLD, and it SHOWS.  And they'll need to fix it, but by then, there'll be so much code they'll need to change, they might as well start a new game and leave Warframe to burn.

And that, will be the real tragedy.

This ^ real well written man, I think this is where I am with the game as i currently had to take a break from it.

Where is the real endgame content after MR16? It seems you just push for weapon mastery just for the MR and throw in that some helping in clan and then yea...? I sometimes ran around in the orbiter wondering what to do next.. 😞 I do love this game but not getting a consistent real endgame is confusing, where is it? Why cant they just add some endgame quests and some new endgame planets with endgame missions?... And I mean new stuff, not some old reworked stuff... Shouldn't be that hard?

Edited by (PS4)Deadwood_Lane
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30 minutes ago, (PS4)Deadwood_Lane said:

This ^ real well written man, I think this is where I am with the game as i currently had to take a break from it.

Where is the real endgame content after MR16? It seems you just push for weapon mastery just for the MR and throw in that some helping in clan and then yea...? I sometimes ran around in the orbiter wondering what to do next.. 😞 I do love this game but not getting a consistent real endgame is confusing, where is it? Why cant they just add some endgame quests and some new endgame planets with endgame missions?... And I mean new stuff, not some old reworked stuff... Shouldn't be that hard?

I ah... don't think that's what they meant. The post you quoted had less to do with new end-game content than it had with the ever-aging mechanics upon which the game is built.

Edited by Tellakey
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The combat system would be fine if warframe still remains as a pure horde-shooter game, but with this new types of bosses it's just simple broken, these bosses are not designed for an horde-shooter game and you can see it when the only thing that can stop you from one-shooting them it's an invulnerability phase, if DE wants to evolve their enemies they need to do the same with the current combate system, i would love seeing warframe become a game where teamwork and stealth is needed or at least useful and an encounter with an eidolon/orb is really challenging for vets, where you need a cc frame on your team to deal with a lot of enemies on defense missions and not just spamming your ignis while you're jumping around.

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Bro,

 

Warframe is Diablo III or 2 in space. You can embrace it or play a good fighter. But calculated thought out gameplay isn't something DE is super great at.

Some of the spy puzzles are pretty good.

But DE is not so good at counterplay. The counter for everything is Warframe is a bullet fountain or grinding the right peice of gear(aka space kid for elodions) or archgun for fort.

League of legends and path of exile are good examples of games that let players solve and counterplay challenges multiple ways. 

 

Choices are very open ended and allow for creative solutions.

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1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Interesting that you would accuse others of trolling when your behavior on this thread has been nothing but confrontational, rude, and detracting from the main topic of discussion into personal attacks. Tellakey is allowed to express their opinion on how Warframe could evolve, and you do not get to silence them, especially not on some personal opinions you appear to be holding as an absolute. If I were you, I'd stop now.

The main topic of discussion is combat difficulty, I asked him to provide one example of a looter game which applies this concept (There isn't any, because that isn't a looter feature) he couldn't.

His entire argument is that his opinion of difficulty should circumvent the design choices for looter games, no matter how many times people tell him this would detract from the actual concept of the game...

He also edited his post in which he claimed that easy combat is "broken", then had the nerve to belittle me and claim he never said such a thing. Why should I show any semblance of respect to someone who acts in such a childish way?
 

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1 hour ago, Tellakey said:

Name one looter that has challenging combat/mechanics.. Just one.

It can be made so.

Play Zer0 Digistruct Peak at op8 with lvl 72 gear. That’s about 90% damage reduction on Zer0’s weaponry outside of execute and outside of health gate its one shot ffyl by enemies. He makes it look painfully easy.

Zidane first did it first about 3-4 years ago, but I guess he got bored bringing salt to mano v mano in dark souls, and did this about a year ago (ahem how long ago did gbox stop even updates on the game?). Others have duplicated his acheivement. People post speed runs on gbox foums, they duplicate each others attempts, and generally have a lot of fun.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n0fUt4B8ETc

There is still a dedicated core of players doing speed runs back im bl forums. People were still making fun builds years after dev stopped on the game.

You could go in with Sal or Gaige and waste Tera at op8 in a few minutes, a little longer with other toons and know his attacks md where to place yourself, and actually have to deploy a modicum of timing on top of that with Zer0. Skills and loadout matter.

*that* is replayability. *that* comes from the devs -and- from the player base.

 

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27 minutes ago, 1ivay1 said:

The main topic of discussion is combat difficulty, I asked him to provide one example of a looter game which applies this concept (There isn't any, because that isn't a looter feature) he couldn't.

His entire argument is that his opinion of difficulty should circumvent the design choices for looter games, no matter how many times people tell him this would detract from the actual concept of the game...

He also edited his post in which he claimed that easy combat is "broken", then had the nerve to belittle me and claim he never said such a thing. Why should I show any semblance of respect to someone who acts in such a childish way?
 

I actually haven't. If you notice all of my posts are edited because I'm a perfectionist and tend to refine my posts shortly after submitting them. I still don't know which post you refer to where I stated combat is broken. My guess is you misread, although later you said "implied to say it's broken" which leads me to believe you realized you had made a mistake.

I won't respond to anything you post henceforth since you clearly cannot discuss this topic without fueling fires.

Edited by Tellakey
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