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Neightrix

Stop self-damage, seriously

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Self-damage added to Staticor, making it worse than it was before. Players joked about how DE would make it deal self-damage to "balance" it, yet there seems to have been a misunderstanding - that was a joke, specifically because it's a terrible idea. Is it because the community hates self-damage that it keeps getting onto more weapons, or that Cautious Shot just doesn't do what the mod was apparently created to do while making weapons significantly weaker against enemies? Did we make DE angry by rejecting the concept? What exactly do we need to say to create an understanding that it's a bad, out-of-place mechanic?

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Funnily enough, I heard Steve says he doesn’t like self dmg on his latest stream....look where we are now 

 

  I mean it’s not that bad with the static or tbh, there’s a field indication so with practice you’ll know how large the radius is so you won’t kill yourself, but the radius is extememly wonky and is terrible if you have low FPS or high ms, I get killed when I was clearly outta the radius. It gets worse when you account that you dish out 2-3 shots because of multishot, and they sometimes go slightly separate ways so you’ll get killed even if you estimated the radius 

 

  The staticor was a very fun weapon, I used it ever since it was released. I don’t get why they’d buffed it and then changed it again. Stop toying with stuff that works for lotus’ sake 

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Only the charged shot has self damage. If you're close to enemies, use the quick shot instead?

Honestly self damage makes sense to me, it's a balance mechanic. The ability to hit more enemies at once makes a weapon much more powerful than one that cannot, so there should be some kind of drawback to it to make it balanced. If you don't want self damage, then the weapon has to be brutally slow and clumsy to use, or have terrible ammo econ, or something else.  If AOE weapons have no weaknesses compared to single target weapons, then every single target weapon is obsolete which isn't what you want as a game designer.

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7 minutes ago, Momaw said:

Only the charged shot has self damage. If you're close to enemies, use the quick shot instead?

Honestly self damage makes sense to me, it's a balance mechanic. The ability to hit more enemies at once makes a weapon much more powerful than one that cannot, so there should be some kind of drawback to it to make it balanced. If you don't want self damage, then the weapon has to be brutally slow and clumsy to use, or have terrible ammo econ, or something else.  If AOE weapons have no weaknesses compared to single target weapons, then every single target weapon is obsolete which isn't what you want as a game designer.

If that’s the case then it was balanced before. Uncharged didn’t have that much AoE and charged was balanced by long charge time and slow travel time, plus the fact that you lose the charge when you get close to enemies 

 

  All they had to do is just revert everything back, but they just had to fix/change what’s not broken it seems. It’s just dumb at this point 

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7 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

All they had to do is just revert everything back, but they just had to fix/change what’s not broken it seems

The 8 meter radius on rapid fire is what was broken.  The Staticor shipped with, and was intended to have, minimal AOE on rapid fire.

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35 minutes ago, Momaw said:

If you don't want self damage, then the weapon has to be brutally slow and clumsy to use, or have terrible ammo econ, or something else.

Funny thing is, those drawbacks you're describing there fit almost all self-damage weapons.

Let's take good ol' Ogris. Small magazine, small ammo reserve, rare ammo type, long reload time, needs to be charged, travel time on shots.
(And as a not-insignificant bonus, damage output is hampered by Heavy Caliber basically not being an option.)

Yeah, all of that is just way too good to not desperately require the weapon to be taken down a notch by adding self-damage.

14 minutes ago, Momaw said:

The 8 meter radius on rapid fire is what was broken.  The Staticor shipped with, and was intended to have, minimal AOE on rapid fire.

Nobody is arguing otherwise.

The 8m AoE on uncharged shots was a bungled-up "fix" for a bug that made Staticor's AoE gigantic.
But instead of fixing that bug [which I'm not saying is as easy as snapping your fingers, but, well, it's been a bit, you can do it DE]
and returning Staticor to what it was before the bug was discovered, nah, gotta change it drastically and make it kill you.


Mind you, I'm not even 100% against the drawback of self-damage,
but either tune that damage down to not be necessarily suicidal (possibly replace it with some kind of debuff, see Void Static)
or tune up the weapons that have it to be top "meta" weapons, wrecking hordes of (beyond-Sortie-level) enemies with ease.

Edited by NinjaZeku

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Self-damage doesn't really have a place in a game where attacks that easily wipe multiple enemies for very high damage are easily available through abilities, melee weapons, and shotguns/more powerful automatics. Additionally, in more arcadey games that have self-damage, like Quake, TF2, or Doom, there's a good reason for it-the self-damage and impulse from self-damaging weapons lets you trade health for speed and agility via rocket jumping. In TF2 in particular, this ability to gain speed via self-damage was so ludicrously good that when they introduced a rocket launcher for practicing rocket jumping (it did no damage to anyone whatsoever, it only had physics impulse) they had to nerf it by making it drastically increase how much damage you took when equipped simply because the extra speed for no damage was so powerful it wasn't just worth giving up your main weapon, it broke the game.

People talk about 'risk/reward' balancing but people do not understand 'risk/reward' balancing. Risk/reward balancing is about rewarding players for taking risks. It's about preventing players from doing the most boring, safest possible actions to beat challenges by giving them rewards for deliberately exposing themselves to risk. A good example of risk/reward balancing is how in Destiny 2 Titans have plenty of tools to regain health and ability energy and/or get buffs through melee kills-this rewards players (regaining health and ability energy, getting buffs) for exposing them to risk (charging in instead of hiding behind cover and plinking at enemies from long range). This is because risk-taking is fun, but people don't like failure. If you don't reward people for risky actions, they're going to play the game as safely as possible.

Giving launchers self-damage isn't actually 'risk/reward' balancing. It's the opposite. It doesn't reward players for taking risks (moving around aggressively, getting in close to enemies). In fact, it does the opposite-it punishes players for playing the game in a risky fashion and rewards players for standing still, at long range, close to cover.

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It's a pretty dumb mechanic, especially in a game like Warframe where player HP scales up relatively poorly compared to enemy HP and player damage. In any mid level missions someone wielding a weapon with self damage is honestly more likely to get killed by themselves than anything else in the game.

7 hours ago, Momaw said:

If you don't want self damage, then the weapon has to be brutally slow and clumsy to use, or have terrible ammo econ, or something else.

That describes most explosive weapons already.

7 hours ago, Momaw said:

If AOE weapons have no weaknesses compared to single target weapons, then every single target weapon is obsolete which isn't what you want as a game designer.

This suggests that self damage is a meaningful drawback in and of itself. It isn't. It's just a nuisance mechanic. Most missions the self damage is never going to be a factor, because you're going to sit back and lob damage at enemies from a safe distance like everyone else. What it does mean is that every now and then you might accidentally kill yourself. 

You talk about things that aren't what you want as a game designer, but a 'balancing mechanic' that amounts to having a small chance to instantly die seems like the poster child for bad design choices.

Moreover this doesn't really hold up on observation either. Across the life of the game the most consistently strong weapons tend to be rifles and shotguns with high stats, not explosive or gimmick weapons.

Edited by Elementalos
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The thing about self damage that I dont understand is that why does it really exist.

ARs, shotguns and even pistols can add punch through to mow down hordes of enemies and can achieve almost the same results as explosives albeit a bit slower due to aiming but with the benefit of not blowing yourself up sky high

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3 hours ago, Elementalos said:

Moreover this doesn't really hold up on observation either. Across the life of the game the most consistently strong weapons tend to be rifles and shotguns with high stats, not explosive or gimmick weapons.

Across the life of the game?  So non-explosive, non-gimmick, single-target weapons like the Tonkor, Ignis, Lenz, Synoid Simulor, Zenistar, or Atterax...  🙂    

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20 minutes ago, Momaw said:

Across the life of the game?  So non-explosive, non-gimmick, single-target weapons like the Tonkor, Ignis, Lenz, Synoid Simulor, Zenistar, or Atterax...  🙂    

The only one which actually bolsters your argument is the Lenz, and the Lenz, uniquely, makes it perfectly possible to avoid self-damage by rolling if you catch yourself in the attack unless you're literally firing it right at your feet. When the Tonkor was dominant it had a self-damage capped at 50 points, which is basically the same as having no self-damage at all. None of the other weapons have had self-damage at any time.

Meanwhile, even in those eras the Vaykor Hek was consistently strong, high-stat automatics like the Soma Prime were consistently strong, and outside of the use of the Simulor for lazy farming via Mirage cheese you'd be perfectly competitive (and I was) using the V. Hek, Soma Prime, or the V. Marelok. And I'm not exactly the toppest tier of gud players here.

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i remember the days when the tonkor was everywhere. 

You could do the launcher weapon class's toddler damage with no fear of repercussion whatsoever. Skill? Just put warheads on foreheads! What more is there to talk about? 

Then self damage came along and married Mr. Tonkor. And Long story short, variety returned to primary weapons loadout in matchmaking. 

TLDR: It's already happened. You missed it. Self-damage is DE adapting and stopping players from engineering fun right out of the game. 

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On 2018-12-25 at 5:16 AM, Ekemeister said:

i remember the days when the tonkor was everywhere. 

You could do the launcher weapon class's toddler damage with no fear of repercussion whatsoever. Skill? Just put warheads on foreheads! What more is there to talk about? 

Then self damage came along and married Mr. Tonkor. And Long story short, variety returned to primary weapons loadout in matchmaking. 

TLDR: It's already happened. You missed it. Self-damage is DE adapting and stopping players from engineering fun right out of the game. 

You mean the damage and critical nerfs drastically reduced the effective DPS and reliability of the Tonkor to a level where people used other primaries more often (and I do mean 'more often'-the Tonkor wasn't the only weapon people used, I saw plenty of people using Soma Ps and V Heks in the Tonkor meta). Self-damage only made it so that rather than being a balanced weapon choice that people used, the Tonkor vanished entirely from games because now not only could you match its damage with a good shotgun like the V Hek or Sancti Tigris, the shotgun was better at long range, easier to use, better at close range, and killed crowds just as easily, but also didn't kill you if you screwed up a shot.

Self-damage is DE making players who want to use launchers engineer fun right out of the game, because it ensures that anyone who uses a launcher is going to stay still on top of a decent vantage point and crate camp to the point where they had to do a billion workarounds just to make people want to move around with the Lenz-I mean the fact that they had to make it have an automatic ammo converter and basically no reserve ammo makes it pretty obvious that they want people to not crate-camp with launchers. And I suspect that if the Lenz didn't have its delayed explosion which allows people to roll away and take minimal damage from a shot that's slightly off, it would still be relegated to the same trash heap the Tonkor, Ogris, and Penta are found in.

Simply speaking, self-damage is not "DE adapting and stopping players from engineering fun right out of the game." Self-damage is DE making a bad decision that forces players who enjoy weaponry with more forgiving aim to engineer fun right out of the game.

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I still use explosive weapons because I enjoy clearing out a bunch of enemies with a single click, it's easy on the finger/mouse. But it does kinda make me feel iffy knowing that I could be more effective using a run-of-the-mill automatic gun, as that would also be safer/easier/stronger.

With the type of game Warframe is, all you really need to do is jump before shooting to avoid self damage(barring those times a teammate jumps in front of you for the lulz). It's so easily avoidable that it wouldn't /really/ make the game any easier to just flat out remove self damage, it would be more of a QoL change to increase weapon variation and help bring explosive weapons in line with all other guns in terms of usability~ 

I still bring out my [Heavy Caliber] Ogris every now and then. While the self damage itself doesn't really bother me, it's kinda out of place since it does not have any sort of horde clearing potential over generic assault rifles.
It was good way back in the day, before a few mechanical adjustments and tons of powercreep, but now there's no justifiable benefit to using it or reward to offset the tedious risk of being able to kill oneself with it.

Edited by NeopetsMaster4432

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Think before you fire and observe that nothing is immediately in front of you. You may still go down occasionally but over all its a fine mechanic to have in the game. Since its actually really easy to avoid if your that bad with not blowing yourself up. 

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2 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

Think before you fire and observe that nothing is immediately in front of you. You may still go down occasionally but over all its a fine mechanic to have in the game. Since its actually really easy to avoid if your that bad with not blowing yourself up. 

There's a little too much bullS#&$ for that in WF imho, from players phasing through you to unclear environmental hit detection, doors being finnicky at times, enemies teleporting around, ect. Self damage greatly restricts play variety with explosives, heavily favoring campy out of bounds cheese, invinciframes, and avoiding contact with other players over completing the mission.

Not to say it should be stripped out, but it does need some work.

 

As for "why anything else if explosives", explosives are good for clearing out high numbers of grouped up enemies, but a lot of warframe is picking off smaller, more spread out numbers, which snipers or shotguns are better at. If anything, most explosives could use a buff to their range and nerf to self damage. They're great when they're great, but not so much when they're not.

Secondaries especially have such small effective damaging range.

Edited by NezuHimeSama

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On 2018-12-25 at 4:16 PM, Ekemeister said:

Then self damage came along and married Mr. Tonkor. And Long story short, variety returned to primary weapons loadout in matchmaking. 

You forgot the part where Mr. Tonkor after the marriage have been forced under the bridge next to the other unwanted hobos like Mr. Kulstar, the old Ogris and the others who no one wants to see.

 

Self-damage was a mistake. It never made sense and it never made anything balanced. The weapons who catch this disease all get forgotten and abadoned.

You all gone around the forums saying that everybody wad either using synsim or tonkor but yet missions in these two's prime time were filled with soma primes, sancti tigrises, the hek family, amprexes, boltor primes, ignises and soo on... the only thing the "balance patch" managed to do is to throw out two weapons from the "meta" and shrink down the acceptable weapon list.

 

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Didn't the self damage get removed in the recent patches?

Also tonkor self damage can still happpen if you use firestorm but the shells now dud if they hit something to close. They still do damage to the target on impact but won't blow up beyond 6 meters. default explosion is 5 but like i said if you use firestorm that causes more issues 😛

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On 2018-12-28 at 4:15 PM, Lancars said:

Didn't the self damage get removed in the recent patches?

Also tonkor self damage can still happpen if you use firestorm but the shells now dud if they hit something to close. They still do damage to the target on impact but won't blow up beyond 6 meters. default explosion is 5 but like i said if you use firestorm that causes more issues 😛

I did not know this and went and playtested it. 

You are correct. If the munitions hits an enemy at 5m or less then it just acts like a bean bag. Otherwise, the tonkor munitions continues to detonate as normal. 

Thank you for telling me this. And LOL> the example that this thread has been arguing over was moot the entire time. 

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15 hours ago, Ekemeister said:

I did not know this and went and playtested it. 

You are correct. If the munitions hits an enemy at 5m or less then it just acts like a bean bag. Otherwise, the tonkor munitions continues to detonate as normal. 

Thank you for telling me this. And LOL> the example that this thread has been arguing over was moot the entire time. 

May be moot but some weapons still suffer this problem. Plus i'm glad i could be of assistance.

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The real gripe I have with self damage is glaives. I accidentally press the wrong button at the wrong time and my own face explodes instead of the enemy

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On 2018-12-29 at 2:48 PM, Ekemeister said:

I did not know this and went and playtested it. 

You are correct. If the munitions hits an enemy at 5m or less then it just acts like a bean bag. Otherwise, the tonkor munitions continues to detonate as normal. 

Thank you for telling me this. And LOL> the example that this thread has been arguing over was moot the entire time. 

And somehow the Tonkor hasn't taken over the meta again, despite the fact that DE increased its damage, made it easier to use, and made it harder to kill yourself with (FYI: this isn't the same thing as impossible, you can regularly catch yourself in the radius if you use firestorm unless you always run away from the direction of your shots, especially because Tonkor shots don't inherit momentum). And as a special bonus, the Tonkor had the same feature ever since its nerf as well.

It's almost as if the reason the Tonkor was overpowered was its ludicrously high critical damage multiplier and chance combined with how at the time explosions could deal headshot damage (which meant that the weapon was dealing four times its listed damage, as critical headshots deal quadruple, not double, damage). And it's almost as if the moment that DE reduced its crit chance and removed its ability to deal headshots from the blast, the Tonkor wasn't some sort of OP wonderweapon and self-damage was utterly unnecessary to 'balance' the Tonkor.

So bringing this up only weakens your argument-self-damage doesn't balance weapons. It just makes them annoying to use.

Edited by MJ12
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My problem with self damage is the premature detintation of explosives when a team mate decides to step in front of you while you are shooting.  😞

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