AVSManfred

Congratulations DE, you've overdone yourself with grindwalls

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Fortnite is a PVP game and loot acquisition is 100% different in that game.

It's basically: Drop Into Map, Find Weapons, kill players with weapons, get currency, purchase cosmetics/unlock more weapons.

Not much to it.

Warframe plays more like an actual MMORPG where there is progression not just unlocks.

And let's not get into Fortnite's Season/Whatever it's called Pass.

Fortnite isn't an RPG. It designed for the instant gratification crowd/here is new stuff right now.

But it fits that game because the game is meant to just throw you into the action. It's not meant to have any sense of personal/character depth, factions, world/universe building, & etc.

But there is so much more to what makes Fortnite a success than just gameplay. I mean their development cycle is fantastic and it mirrors Prime Access already. Now imagine if DE could take that 3 month cycle and produce content on a schedule. It would lighten their workload, give them defined content deadlines, allow them to have time for events, let them add in a challenge system that rewards rare resources, focus, credits, and general cosmetics (sigils, emblems, glyphs, etc.; possibly from previous event pools).

So basically every cycle starts with Prime Access, then an event, then they can release a new/updated tileset or modify PoE/Fortuna or a major update, then do an unvault, then do an event, then back to the next Prime Access. So every cycle we get new challenges, 2 events, an unvault, an update, and prime access. The events don't even need to be new and if they are new they could be bundled with the update for that cycle since it would probably be a 3-4 week event anyway.

The point being that right now DE doesn't seem to have a defined content schedule other than Prime Access so why not leverage that cycle like the most popular game in the world does? Sure, some updates would be smaller but we would have events more often and if DE adds in better and rotating rewards that players actually want then it would keep them coming back to play instead of crying about a content drought since nothing new was added.

Edited by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph
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That is why you need to hibernate till melee 3.0 comes

That being said, Warframe already has enough grind wall and RNG, we don't need more of this 

Things that DE need to be fix

-every Syndicate has cap

-almost every syndicate works the same way

-PvP

-some meta frame is lock by huge RNG wall (knora, nidus, Vauban, Garuda, harrow)

-need to farm kuva in order to roll rivens, good job of implementing a mod that has 5 layeyed of RNG 

-any kind crafting item always have a time gate for no reason

-bounties

-dificulty

-raids

-archwing

-scaling rewards

-new enemies, no reskin

-rework other frame instead of focusing on newer frame

-many of the mods that we get in the game are useless (you want some zoom)

-do not release upcoming weapon as skin that was thought to be released as a weapon, for real I was expecting the machete to be a weapon, but skins. Why

-fix arbitration and onslought rewards

Edited by Genesix6
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9 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

My operator can crawl into my archwing and they can both disappear for all I care.

I hate Fortuna. I hate my operator. I hate my archwing. Not much incentive to go there. At least they sold a bunch of new bundles though on yet another frame that will likely rot until a prime version comes out for more than the price of a full triple A game.

They cant help themselves. And it shows. Every single little thing is linked to platinum sales with ridiculous rng grind and time gating. 

Just once it'd be nice to get a chunk of content that was designed for fun. No platinum no rng no grind. Just one time release content that isn't a paper thin attempt to sell platinum.

Image result for laughing gif

Made it worth clicking the thread. TY.

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If DE removes the daily cap, the next logical step would be them dramatically increasing the standing for rewards to combat players burning through it.

I don't know why people don't understand that system.

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10 hours ago, Loza03 said:

People complained about not having enough stuff to do.

Nuff said.

Not that I'm particularly fond of this system, and  I hope they improve it, but I can rationalise this decision.

Adding more grind isn't adding more stuff to do. It's just making it take longer to get stuff. More stuff to do means more gameplay options, more missions, more game modes. Grind just stretches out content. It also doesn't help when gameplay is designed to be a tedious chore on top of RNG-based grind.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Fortnite is a PVP game and loot acquisition is 100% different in that game.

It's basically: Drop Into Map, Find Weapons, kill players with weapons, get currency, purchase cosmetics/unlock more weapons.

Not much to it.

Warframe plays more like an actual MMORPG where there is progression not just unlocks.

And let's not get into Fortnite's Season/Whatever it's called Pass.

Fortnite isn't an RPG. It designed for the instant gratification crowd/here is new stuff right now.

But it fits that game because the game is meant to just throw you into the action. It's not meant to have any sense of personal/character depth, factions, world/universe building, & etc.

Warframe doesn't have personal/character depth, meaningful factions, or world/universe building. For Warframe, all of that is shallow. Warframe is just meant for you to grind for more loot, so that you can grind some more. It's not built around gameplay experiences, unlike most open world games or AAA multiplayer games, meaning it isn't built around character depth (you would need an actual character for that, not just an avatar) or factions that differ from each other and are actually doing things in the game world (and not just serving as a storefronts for items and the same old missions) or worldbuilding (to consider anything in Warframe meaningful world building that isn't just more vague descriptions of stuff is hilarious).

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Because operant conditioning works, so why not? 

It's unlikely that dudes with high sunk cost would leave Warframe anyway. People who make complaints on Warframe forum usually have high sunk cost fallacy you see. 

 

Here's a magic trick of Warframe, you need to gather a lot of video game compulsion and self deception so you could convince yourself that you play a (tedious and stupid) game like Warframe because you have fun not because you have been skinner boxed. And you will stop posting complaints ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

But there is so much more to what makes Fortnite a success than just gameplay. I mean their development cycle is fantastic and it mirrors Prime Access already.

Fair enough. And I'm not saying this to give DE an "excuse" but Epic Games is a True AAA dev with 7 times the employee count as DE.
I use to play FF14 and that game operates on a 3 month (aka: quarterly) schedule as well. And having that many people makes it possible.

The quality of Warframe easily makes this community (myself included) forget that DE is still an Indy Developer with a very small staff.
Churning out updates like Epic Games will be consistently if not always be incredibly difficult (if not impossible) for DE.|

(Let's not forget that Epic has a lot of products to keep it afloat. DE has...well pretty much only Warframe...)

That said.

I also don't want DE to return to the old updates Pre-Chains of Harrow where the timed Tactical Alerts (which fit into the 3 month cycle well. They also Mirror Fortnite's "events" if you look at it objectively. ) were the only source of story progression & new additions (modes...enemies) to the game.

One major issue with that cycle is that even now the game is fractured due to those Alerts. Huge chunks of story that the majority of the main playerbase does not know. (Main Playerbase = the masses who just log in, enjoy the game, log out. We must note that all of us on forums are an extremely limited...if not insignificant portion of the playerbase.)

I do agree with your post. More frequent updates would be lovely.

Minor touch of my history with WF & its updates:

Spoiler

 

I have been with WF since it launched. But I Quit the game year after year after about 1 week to 1 month of play. Until about Year 3/Year 4ish.

The old cycle WF was in, the way story was delivered (which tbh what story does Fortnite have? To my knowledge the PVP mode which is what everyone isn comparing it to, has none. Which is why I'm bothering to combat comparisons to Fortnite.), the addition of modes, the advertisement in general, all of it was very weak & a huge turn off.

I'd return to try the game out & feel punished.
Punished because I can NEVER see some of the storyline.
This made me badmouth Warframe as a weak game with weak story because the game was too scared to keep the story in the game.

Punished because new enemies & modes were introduced via Alerts but for new or returning players they just popped out of thin air.
Many (myself included) would say: That game is desperate for content.

Then every update cycle the PSN news would be spammed with Warframe ads & Prime Access ads. Many felt the game was Pay to Win because of the ads, because of the new modes that felt like you needed the new weapons to complete.
The old cycle was much more unwelcoming to new & some returning players.

I'd log in, play for a few minutes. Try to understand what the hell was going on, notice a digital hand reaching for my wallet & log off. I'd shake my head then uninstall before returning to "good" games like FF14 & (the game many claimed Warframe was a cheap F2P Android/IOS quality rip off of...) Destiny 1. (My mindset back then was very negative due to how this game was back in the day. Hey. I'm hold myself accountable. I was an Anti-Warframe as they come. This game burned me. It burned me BAD. I wanted nothing more than to see Warframe out of business (During it's 1st & 2nd years especially.) I was offended by its ads in my PSN feed.)

When I tested the game out (due to a co-worker trying the game. I was actually trying to talk him OUT of playing Warframe. But due to losing a bet with him I begrudgingly joined him. I literally said: "Well...we'll suffer this bad game together...but I feel an I told you so coming." upon our first log in.)

Part of what helped Warframe (Console wise) gain a foothold was the way DE changed all these aspects. And they lucked out. The changes had just settled in & been polished just in time as Warframe's top competitor fumbled the ball. (This was after I began to research things on WF)

If Warframe had stuck to the old schedules & formats (like many on the forums want them to return to) the game would not have the retention & playerbase it has now.

 

Now to address the thread directly:

I'm very mixed on this topic understand that folks are frustrated by the grind but....
When DE launched PoE folks were up in arms about how easy Gara was to acquire, how easy nearly everything was. How only the Quills & Eidolons were something players had to "work towards".

With Elite Onslaught Players asked for Khora not to be dropped like candy & for her to be worked towards.
Folks said they wanted Fortuna content to last longer & not be easy to complete like PoE was.
I'm NOT supporting using Grind to extent life but from what I've played the grind is healthy.

I am fresh off a break from Warframe & having played Destiny 2 for a few months.
That game uses Grindwall, behind grindwall, behind grindwall for progression. It also literally time gates content. As in...specific missions only available during very specific times of the week & month, with more content locked behind time gates that have yet to be discovered.

This imo is far worse.
As essentially Destiny 2 has become a daily list of Chores.

D2 Rant/Explanation:

Spoiler

 

Log-in do my checklist then log off. What bothers me is a lot of other games (even FF14) have become bogged down in this formula.
Log-in do dailies, log off.
Warframe thankfully only has a few wounds from this epidemic.

Even when "Standing" has capped, the game offers other methods of progression. Farming materials for the next standing tier for example. Many games just cut you off cold turkey from even getting drops related to faction/standing until 24hrs have past.

And everything else in Fortuna has a purpose. Fish dismantling, gem refining, etc.
Always a way to prep for future content/the Daily reset. Also there is the rest of the game to play too.
One example being that with the new reinvigoration to Archwing weapons, well now there is a reason to Forma & level them.

 

However, I 100% understand players feeling frustrated they can't get everything on Day 1.
But why do you want everything on Day 1?

I'm going to regret asking this because due to the Christmas Rush (and me working 10-12hrs shifts) I probably won't get to respond to the legit replies but..
I want to ask.

Why do so many people want to cap Standing & have all Weapons unlocked on Day/Week 1?
(There are ALOT of folks who will have it all done by the end of the week...)
If (For the sake of discussion) there was no Grindwall & you did it get it all, what would you do everyday afterwards?
What were you planning on doing with all this new stuff you acquired?
What could DE have done to make collecting everything worthwhile on Day/Week 1?
For the sake of discussion let's flip the situation. If there was no Grindwall/Time Wall/Caps:
Would you be upset that you unlocked all the content & maxed all standing in this first week?
Would you be upset that you & the vast majority have already acquired Baruuk on Day 1? (Aka: Gara Repeat)
Would you feel that the update was too casual? (PoE got called this alot.)
Would you feel that there was nothing worth working towards?

I admit I'm playing both sides of the fence but I am legitimately curious to find just what exactly people want out of these updates.

Even if FF14, Destiny, Guild Wars, Black Desert, etc. Players rush & dev our the new content when it isn't gated then they have nothing to do & well...we've seen how vocal they get.

DE's update cycle while not ideal has been better than Destiny's cycle (in year one we went for 6 months without even a "minor" or "tiny" update.) Folks here said it was a year of no content but...WF did have updates and frequently. Almost every month in truth yes they were not "expansion" in size. (Even FF14 doesn't do updates that big.) But folks act like nothing came. Wasn't ESO an update? Was Sacrifice not an update? Was Chimera not an update?

I almost want to fault DE for not gating/limiting Arbitrations because those got devoured in under a week by the hardcore/end game crowd.

Edited by (PS4)Zero_029
Added spoiler tags for my tangents.
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I remember one of the devs saying they start out with high grind numbers in case an unintended method of obtaining everything and blowing through all content in a single day is discovered. Chill.

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It's a "power fantasy farm/grind game" but you're not allowed to implement anything that requires grinding, everything has to have such a high drop rate that rare basically means getting it in 3 hours as opposed to 1 hour.

At this point, they might else well hand out everything for free with every update and let people grind and farm a billion Polymer Bundles to do nothing with.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

But there is so much more to what makes Fortnite a success than just gameplay. I mean their development cycle is fantastic and it mirrors Prime Access already. Now imagine if DE could take that 3 month cycle and produce content on a schedule. It would lighten their workload, give them defined content deadlines, allow them to have time for events, let them add in a challenge system that rewards rare resources, focus, credits, and general cosmetics (sigils, emblems, glyphs, etc.; possibly from previous event pools).

So basically every cycle starts with Prime Access, then an event, then they can release a new/updated tileset or modify PoE/Fortuna or a major update, then do an unvault, then do an event, then back to the next Prime Access. So every cycle we get new challenges, 2 events, an unvault, an update, and prime access. The events don't even need to be new and if they are new they could be bundled with the update for that cycle since it would probably be a 3-4 week event anyway.

The point being that right now DE doesn't seem to have a defined content schedule other than Prime Access so why not leverage that cycle like the most popular game in the world does? Sure, some updates would be smaller but we would have events more often and if DE adds in better and rotating rewards that players actually want then it would keep them coming back to play instead of crying about a content drought since nothing new was added.

While I agree with you on one hand, on another hand it's better not to have set time limits for updates because it can become rush and push for updates with small DE team which might result in even more unpolished updates. Only way for them to pull off quality scheduled updates would be to hire more staff.

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16 hours ago, AVSManfred said:

So yeah Fortuna part 2 is here and... even if I wasn't hyping myself for it, I couldn't get more disappointed with DE still not learning on their past mistakes with insane grid walls, fact that new resources (Gyromag, Atomo, and Reperell systems) can be obtained only via RNG heavy bounty rewards for the Heist missions is just plain middle finger in face of players who just want to put their hands on new weapons, there should be alternate option of acquisition other than grinding these bounties, like drop from enemies on specific sites, just like with torids but on higher drop rate(like way higher), Toris also should get better drop chance considering there is a lot of actual content locked behind the grind wall for Vox Solaris standing (like not only amps but also new Warframe ffs) and even if cave torid spawn is an option it's not really faster than enemy drop farm. All that makes for very tedious grind and also forcefully push players into something that supposed to be an "end-game" content (again..,) instead players who just want to test out new weapons and Warframe(without spending real money on game) need to deal with new boss fight which honestly don't feel much different from Eidolons, just a few extra gimmicks which don't make for much more fun experience, rather way more annoying. And even if I understand that comparing Orb to Eidolon automatically brings analogy that you can't reach all titles of Quills from Cetus without hunting Eidolons, Fortuna supposed to be an improvement, not copypaste of Plains formula so why replicating the same mistake? Why DE can't learn that players want to play the game, but not for a sheer tedious grind. Couple this with new Prime Access and it really turns into a huge big slap in the face with a ridiculous amount of grind just for Christmas, perfect to kill the mood.

 

I still don't understand why community  defends this kind of grind as the method of the progression in the game, no it's not, with so much heft put on RNG and no grind limiters it's not really "putting work into game" it's more like "waiting for mercy of RNG to give us what we need to progress", accepting that is basically accepting that DE can put the drop chances on ridiculously low lvl (like below 0,001%) and still letting them keep forcing us to grind things with such low drop rate because community can't  try to go against it and accepting that DE basically turn them into slaves of RNG.

Warframe should choose what to wants to be first. Skill based or horde shooter. If its skill based then the pace needs to be slower, enemies are harder but fever and thus the droptables increased. If it's going to be a horde shooter then cap off enemy scaling, reduce the droptables but increase enemy spawn rates (overall enemy numbers on screen). Fortuna is really PoE 2.0 just bigger with more grind. Here's an idea: "Item X has 5% chance to drop. You've played the mission 10 times and it hasn't dropped? Item X now has 7% chance to drop." And it keeps increasing until you get it, then resets to original % once you do get it. And lets just remove 0,something drop rates, just use whole numbers.

 

Also I don't see the justification of nerfs in a PVE game. Anything that in anyway reduces grind is either a bug or gets nerfed. DE if people a re resorting to specific methods of play consistently then you need to rethink the drop rates(the reason people are subjecting themselves to mind numbing repetition) not nerfing that method.

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5 minutes ago, Gibsy091 said:

Also I don't see the justification of nerfs in a PVE game

I do, there's this thing called Balance ring any bells?

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21 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

I do, there's this thing called Balance ring any bells?

If you want to nerfs something that is powerful than the others

Buff the thing that is weaker than the other

Buff the enemies as well to make more balance

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My only problem is that you can only farm the new resources on that useless bounties.... At least for toroids we have a lot of options.

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17 hours ago, malekas said:

Farming Toroids has completely turned me off of this new content. When I saw how many Toroids I would need for all of this new stuff, I turned Warframe off. Baruuk, new amps, operator cosmetics, ect. Guess I won't touch any of that because farming Toroids is cancer.

Exactly....meanwhile im still farming wisp cetus to craft 10 arcanes -.-

 

Farm toroids? Sorry DE ! Bu i wont do this! Nobody have this time to do!

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Yet another thread about this.

Sheesh, if I didn't think it was an issue before, I sure do now. And I did think it was an issue before, so just imagine.

Progression tied to low RNG content and standing + Hard-capped standing gains + New content and mechanics hidden in the highest standing tiers => A lengthy, tedious and ultimately unrewarding grind.

I am really [EXPLETIVE REDACTED] glad I am not touching Fortuna with a ten feet pole. It smells like surefire burnout fuel.

And surprise, surprise, people are complaining about burnout.

How [EXPLETIVE REDACTED] unexpected.

All of this is hard reminding me of that video that Genna Bain made however many years ago. Funnily enough, some of the problems she had then and I didn't quite get I can see clear as water in Fortuna.

Edited by Paranoicon
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6 minutes ago, Paranoicon said:

Yet another thread about this.

Sheesh, if I didn't think it was an issue before, I sure do now. And I did think it was an issue before, so just imagine.

Progression tied to low RNG content and standing + Hard-capped standing gains + New content and mechanics hidden in the highest standing tiers => A lengthy, tedious and ultimately unrewarding grind.

I am really [EXPLETIVE REDACTED] glad I am not touching Fortuna with a ten feet pole. It smells like surefire burnout fuel.

And surprise, surprise, people are complaining about burnout.

How [EXPLETIVE REDACTED] unexpected.

As a new player that is literally in the middle of PoE, I have absolutely no interest in Fortuna at all.

I did the quest, realised it was exactly the same as PoE but it wouldn’t help me build amps, and left.

I can’t imagine it feels any better to be a vet, and get asked to play PoE all over again.

mining, fishing and bounties.

Wouldve been a lot cheaper to add the wildlife conservation stuff to PoE and just not bothered cloning the entire thing into a new planet 🤷🏻‍♂️

Yeah, they are visually distinct, and Orb Vallis does have slightly different caves, but what does that matter if we interact with it all EXACTLY the same way? 🤷🏻‍♂️

🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited by (PS4)Mono-Pop
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vor 17 Stunden schrieb (NSW)Evilpricetag:

So...  You only want to play the game for a few minutes? 

Once you acquired them your done... 

That´s why I have spend over 4k hours into the game. right?

I am done with Fortuna 2.0 before I even have one of the new items and that is something DE should consider.

Not long ago DE said they want to reduce the grind, but all they did is increasing it even more.

 

Edited by Kuestenjung
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what grind wall? i already got all new stuff and already built most of the new stuff that need gyromag, atmo, and repeller.. just do it without the agenda that "i need to get everything in 24 hours"..

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1 hour ago, LupisV0lk said:

I do, there's this thing called Balance ring any bells?

Nope.

Look if balance was so important to the overall fun in a PVE game then why not just have one weapon or a hundred reskins of the same weapon type. Maybe its my fault for thinking Warframe was a game about making the player a demigod. Making the player overpowered. If so then they should make the game more skill based. Harder enemies but less of them, but I guess that would kill the pacing of the game. So what will it be? Fast paced horde shooter or skill based tactical shooter? Personally I'd rather have a few OP guns and frames rather then a bunch of overall mediocre guns and frames.

 

Edited by Gibsy091

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21 minutes ago, Kuestenjung said:

That´s why I have spend over 4k hours into the game. right?

If anyone remembers please link to the Devstream where they actually said something along the words of not wanting players to grind for 24-48 hours, on the same place/content and done. Might been the same one where they explained why they had to place standing limits to keep players from once and done deal/exploits.

So yeah, they are reducing the grind, they don't want you entirely focus in one aspect of the game, thats how you end up with 4k hours. Ex: Endless Void runs back in the day.

Edited by Souldend78

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18 hours ago, AVSManfred said:

So yeah Fortuna part 2 is here and... even if I wasn't hyping myself for it, I couldn't get more disappointed with DE still not learning on their past mistakes with insane grid walls, fact that new resources (Gyromag, Atomo, and Reperell systems) can be obtained only via RNG heavy bounty rewards for the Heist missions is just plain middle finger in face of players who just want to put their hands on new weapons, there should be alternate option of acquisition other than grinding these bounties, like drop from enemies on specific sites, just like with torids but on higher drop rate(like way higher), Toris also should get better drop chance considering there is a lot of actual content locked behind the grind wall for Vox Solaris standing (like not only amps but also new Warframe ffs) and even if cave torid spawn is an option it's not really faster than enemy drop farm. All that makes for very tedious grind and also forcefully push players into something that supposed to be an "end-game" content (again..,) instead players who just want to test out new weapons and Warframe(without spending real money on game) need to deal with new boss fight which honestly don't feel much different from Eidolons, just a few extra gimmicks which don't make for much more fun experience, rather way more annoying. And even if I understand that comparing Orb to Eidolon automatically brings analogy that you can't reach all titles of Quills from Cetus without hunting Eidolons, Fortuna supposed to be an improvement, not copypaste of Plains formula so why replicating the same mistake? Why DE can't learn that players want to play the game, but not for a sheer tedious grind. Couple this with new Prime Access and it really turns into a huge big slap in the face with a ridiculous amount of grind just for Christmas, perfect to kill the mood.

 

I still don't understand why community  defends this kind of grind as the method of the progression in the game, no it's not, with so much heft put on RNG and no grind limiters it's not really "putting work into game" it's more like "waiting for mercy of RNG to give us what we need to progress", accepting that is basically accepting that DE can put the drop chances on ridiculously low lvl (like below 0,001%) and still letting them keep forcing us to grind things with such low drop rate because community can't  try to go against it and accepting that DE basically turn them into slaves of RNG.

Seriously.....this is 4 sentences? 

How is that possible?

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