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[DE]Rebecca

Fortuna: The Profit Taker FGF. Frequently Given Feedback!

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I have no idea what people are talking about with the fight being too easy with the Profit taker orb, or "middle of the road players" being able to take it easily. I have arcanes, I have formaed up builds, I have rivens. A full team on the first try for me and second for one of my clan mates still couldn't finish it. Sure, I couldn't capture an Eidolon on my first try either, but that was due to not having the knowing of the lures. 

The issue I did run into sadly, was that a beacon was on top of an EXCEEDINGLY high mushroom at one phase, and when I used my arch wing to go and take it down, it removed my arch weapon, and I could no longer contribute to the shield down phases of the fight. That was not only crippling in terms of my damage out put, but also incredibly counter intuitive. 

Understandably, one would not want everyone to just take an archwing and their heavy weapon and go to town on the boss from the air. However, it still feels pretty horrid that I couldn't use my heavy weapon for the rest of the fight due to having to take out a beacon that was unreasonably high up. 

The voting thing for skipping seems fair, and if you have not yet been placed in a squad, it would also seem fair and prudent to allow one to skip over dialogue after the first run. 

Aside from that, the actual stuff about the Orb mother seemed really interesting and I wish I could have heard it more clearly. Even with the sound effects volume turned down and the voice acting turned up, the fight was frequently far too chaotic to understand a lot of the dialogue. 

To everyone who's been saying the fight is too easy: weird flex. How is the game meant to have room for more challenge if the  second planet, first boss is so difficult that people who solo Eidolons (apparently) can't defeat it? The team has already stated ambitions for more open world maps and bosses, not even mentioning the New War.  There is room still for more challenges hold onto your corndogs. 

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Some thoughts on these:

  • In future, Heavy Weapons could have the equip cooldown removed entirely, but have their spare ammo not replenish on activation; instead, have the spare ammo pool regenerate slowly when not equipped, from 0% to 100% over a given period of time (say, 5 minutes). So if I pull one out, bottom out the gun, and have to pull it again in 2.5 minutes, I have 50% of my ammo max regenerated. Would give some incentive to switching. (Potentially shorten the equip animation, too.)
  • Profit Taker's rewards could at least drop all the other three toroids - and a fair bit in a satisfying lootsplosion, please! To go with the, well, actual explosion.
  • I feel like not allowing perfect captures with hard CC is a good option for conservation. But - how about the reverse? Incentives for using the tranq. Like doubled tags for a tranq capture. And tranq rifle functionality could be expanded on greatly with the Widget system used in scanners, as well as additional gear.
  • Profit Taker herself - the main problems are the buttloads of damage (a Chroma with 1000% extra armor, without also being plastered in Arcanes like Grace and Guardian, dies in seconds) and the knockdown-knockback-knockaround bumper car effect of both the Orb's attacks and the other enemies. Partly a problem with Trenchers at base (they do absurdly high damage and stagger on every hit while leaping at you at mach speed, neither of which is fun), partly the Orb Turret being a little overkill, partly spawn flow.
    • On the other hand, she's a little too squishy - the fight is so compressed, it's over in 12 minutes solo. She could stand to be more durable, in return for a more generous timer on Stage 4's last phase and bigger loot overall. Mostly in the armor department, which goes down pretty fast.
    • Shields... maybe a bit more shields but not 100% reduction 'off type', and a slower 'reset cooldown' for amps to avoid other players "trolling" the resistance.
  • Bounty rewards - mostly, there could stand to be a better way to get the 1.25% mods, like some additional objective that has "rare weighting".
  • Staticor - if there's no selfdamage, it could have falloff added to the charged explosion, and/or be a bit smaller than the crazy 8 meters.
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I hope something is done about amount of knockback in the profit taker fight. it gets so frequent that the constant random movement makes me feel very ill.

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First off, I greatly appreciate the context that additional comments provide. Thanks for that.

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

a) Heavy Weapon Cooldown

Generally speaking from a broad design sense, the intent here is to have a powerful change of pace in combat, not a complete replacement of your weaponry for all time. This is an 'oh yeah' power moment that will continue to undergo balance changes to feel a bit less punishing.  

While I understand the design intent, I expect you're gonna have a real hard time with this.

Newbies - who need that extra boost - can't obtain the Gravimag (unless carried, I guess? Edit: But even then, requires Solaris United Old Mate, so no, actually.).

Midgame players may benefit, but pretty much only against bosses, Assassins, and the odd New Loka hitsquad. I repeat this often (though usually about damaging Warframe abilities), but there's a very fine line between 'too much damage' and 'not enough damage' - and very little straddles the line so well that a player'll have enough damage to only get through most of a mission. (I assume you can infer from this statement onto endless missions.)

and ofc, "endgame" players don't need the damage. Only use I expect them to get from this crowd is the occasional AoE clear with a Grattler/Fluctus, or to wow a newbie.

 

I have no comment on anything else - haven't started trying to work through the heists solo (by necessity as per my last post)  yet, don't use WF with Steam (though I'm sure those who do appreciate the effort you're putting in here), and haven't used the Staticor since leveling it; the projectile speed kills it for me.

Irrespective of that, though, thanks for the communication. :)

Edited by Chroia

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Additional Comments:

Generally speaking from a broad design sense, the intent here is to have a powerful change of pace in combat, not a complete replacement of your weaponry for all time. This is an 'oh yeah' power moment that will continue to undergo balance changes to feel a bit less punishing.  

I understand the intent, and would approve of something like this. 
However, many frames can wipe maps at the press of a button in this game.
The Archguns are also outpaced by many of the normal high end weapons we have in game already.
Which is why I don't understand why something like the Velocitus was nerfed even for land combat.
Especially when you factor in the Archgun fire animations, and then the niche cases of normal guns having Rivens.
If something is going to be worth a ten, or even five minute cooldown, it needs to be able to really have a flashy and high-end impact.
Since so far, everything with a cooldown in the game currently isn't really worth it at a 1:1 ratio.

Thanks for this big update list though, Reb.

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Please increase the damage of arch-guns, my secondary weapons are more effective. 

Please rework loot for profittaker. 

And please don't try to make another free roam location next year. It seems to be too much than the team can handle. And other content suffers for it. 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are adding more waypoints and icons to Objectives and Pickups during the Profit Taker fight. We are also tweaking some of the offensive mechanics of The Profit Taker.

 

As long as this will not be similar to how icons and markers for Eidolon Shards work. One thing that makes me kind of avoid the Eidolon Hunts is how my screen can easily get filled up with icon markers that are dependend on if my teammates pick up the shards or not. 

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

With yesterday's update, the Straticor’s charged shots deal self-damage, but we intend to change that. The Straticor’s charged shots will soon have self-damage removed.

That's no what made people mad, nobody really uses the charged shot. People are mad because you buffed the gun to be fun, useful and actually match it's riven disposition, then waited almost 3 months to go "oopsie that wasn't intended :P", after people had already invested a lot of forma on it.

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1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

This one is a little tricky. The Profit Taker fight is not meant to be an easy task, and we want to wait more than 24 hours to act on some feedback. Players need to spend more than a day strategizing - keeping Alert Beacons destroyed, learning how to cycle damage types, coordinating with your squad, are types of behaviour that can efficiently overcome the challenge. We are looking to reduce 'unfun' elements for sure, just be aware we are hesitant to over-correct some of the aspects in less than a day of feedback. Thanks for your patience in advance!

Quite frankly, at this point just give us a second or two of knockdown immunity after we recover from knockdown and it'll be fine.

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To me it's annoying to try reload all the time as you're getting jumped or pulled by almost each and every mob. And I don't feel like I'm having the time to also pay attention to each little mob since I have to wait until I can effectively damage the profit taker. Sure, you could maximize the number of damage types but then I'm kinda limited in the weapons and combos I want to run.

Immune phases are also not fun - what about the adaptation effect? The more damage of a certain type the boss receives the less dmg it will do? And probably doing another or two other (or whatever the number must be) damage types are used the adaptation effect weakens? Everyone has various damage types if geared. Then there is at least no "waiting" until I'm finally able to do damage to the boss - I will switch my weapon when my damage falls off on my main (--> would need some deeper thoughts or experiments 😉 ...)

What if the boss would increase his own damage over time to make it harder? Or maybe there's a max. of times downed? Or maybe there's some sort of platforms you need to stay on (assuming multiple players) to increase damage taken of the boss. Or maybe there's like a wall you need to activate to avoid strong attacks (like a charged laserbeam or nova attack or whatever it is). I personally just don't like getting CC'd and Immunities... My ideas might also not be cool for everyone but well it is a personal feedback 😉

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11 minutes ago, DadMusashi said:

I have no idea what people are talking about with the fight being too easy with the Profit taker orb, or "middle of the road players" being able to take it easily.

I had a random team today and we did 2 runs without a problem. Chroma, Trinity, harrow... it could have been a tridolon squad. So for experienced players it is not hard.

But you have to know what to do. (and I had to mod my harrow almost for survivability only).

 

So from an endgame view I would say it is not hard. But I am not sure how it could become harder because then only tanky frames could do the job?

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This is odd for me.

I love having arch guns as a temp heavy anti material weapon and hope to see more of this entwined into the game, but... I'm not feeling it too well for the orb. It's frustrating the way your at Mercy on ammo to continue dealing dmg. I also dislike that it's treated like some super powerful almighty wmd, when it's really not a huge power difference when I was looking at numbers. Maybe I need to keep reviewing data, but it felt more like a cripple to fully rely on the arch gun to do damage to the orb. Maybe allow basic weapons to do a reduced dmg on the orb? I dunno, it was just more frustrating than it felt it needed to be. 

Still though, please have arch gun sabotage missions in the future, it's a cool concept.

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How to fix the big annoyances of the Profit Taker Fight:

  • Remove 10 minute cooldown on the Arch-guns, make Arch-guns more damaging. Superweapons designed for space combat should not feel this plinky.
  • Limit the number of enemies who can perform knockups/knockbacks. Getting motion sickness should not be part of any boss fight.
  • Add more compelling drops to the tables. Arcanes are a nice idea.
  • Change the way the Orb's damage reduction works. If the intention is for PUGs to be able to do this, how can an uncoordinated group be expected to have enough variety in damage types?

Also, this has nothing to do with the Orb Mother, but since people are talking about it (in relation to the Staticor):
Why does self-damage exist in Warframe? Why does a fast-paced, squad-based, chaotic as hell shooter have self-damage? It seems horribly counterintuitive.

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i would like to see that the make the archwing guns have som consequence for mobility, it is a heavy gun made for space not for onewarframe to hold on the grund, just make it so u cant bulletjump or spriny while the archgun is equipped, other games do this as well like in halo when u take a turret u cant sprit with it

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1 hour ago, TGDM said:

While an understandable principle for design, the reality is that we have standard weaponry far more powerful than these guns.

May I ask what the hell you have that does "FAR" more than 677 THOUSAND burst DPS (which is what my Imperator Vandal does in Atmosphere mode)? My most powerful gear is in the neighborhood of 250k burst DPS...

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

a) Heavy Weapon Cooldown


Once the Atmosphere Arch-Gun’s ammo has been depleted, there is a 10 minute cool-down until it is summoned again. We intend to lower the cooldown in one of two ways:

Either reduce cooldown to 5 minutes and double the Atmosphere Arch-Gun’s ammo pool
Or
Scale cooldown based on remaining Atmosphere Arch-Gun’s ammo pool (and double the pool overall).

Additional Comments:

Generally speaking from a broad design sense, the intent here is to have a powerful change of pace in combat, not a complete replacement of your weaponry for all time. This is an 'oh yeah' power moment that will continue to undergo balance changes to feel a bit less punishing.  

 

The big issue in my view is the flexibility in "re-summoning" the Arch-gun.

As per my post found here ( Game Breaking Arch-Gun Issues in Profit-Taker Phase 4 Fight ), the timer lock-out existing at all is a problem.  While the options put forth here are a step in the right direction, I still think it heavily limits the player, and is a large contributor to the fight being less-than-fun (to put it politely).

Please consider eliminating the timer, and perhaps instituting a mobility limitation of some sort, or a lockout from abilities.  Aside from the need for it during the Profit-Taker fightt, what seemed cool about being able to use your Arch-gun [before actually getting to] was the new flexibility that it would offer to our arsenal.

I won't make a secret about it...I got into Warframe because my girlfriend told me about all of the unique and amazing weapons in the game (only later did I come to see the warframes themselves as anything more than gun- and blade- carrying platforms].  The idea of having the option to call down a heavy weapon from orbit, much like how we call on our Archwings, Sharkwings, and K-drives, got me very excited.  I imagined switching to my Arch-gun for a quick burst, switching back to my Vectis Prime to hit a far-distant enemy, meleeing a few scrubs, following up with my Akstiletto Prime, and then jumping into my Archwing AND calling on my Arch-gun again while I transit from one part of the map to the next.  Instead....I get a clunky animation that takes longer than an unmodded Opticor takes to fire, and a 10min cooldown timer that makes using my Arch-gun feel like less of "one more tool in my toolbox" and more like "well, this is more useless as Air Support Charges."  As a side-note to the Arch/Sharkwing and K-drive summoning being instantaneous, it seems lore-breaking that the Arch-guns would be any different...but that's entirely aside from the gameplay issues. 

The ability to call on the Arch-gun should be fast, seamless, and rather than feeling like a "boost of oh-yeah-power," it should feel like an organic addition to how we fight in the game, role playing as Tenno.  We already get that feeling of "oh-yeah-power" using our normal weapons.  Even my strongest Arch-gun with 5 forma doesn't match my new Akjagara Prime without a riven....and with a riven, who even cares about the Imperator Vandal, Grattler, Fluctus, or Velocitus?  Already I can't bring myself to care about the Corvus, the Dual Decurion, the Cyngas, or the Phaedra....so much so that I had to look them up to write that sentence, and didn't even care to spell check them.  I was hoping that being able to use them on the ground would give me a reason to actually consider them as part of my arsenal, but as it stands I won't be inspired to find new uses for the [already awful] Duel Decurion....nor will I finally throw a Catalyst or Forma on them....and I CERTAINLY am not inspired to throw a Gravimag on them.

So...I'm just wanting to say that the original idea of having the Arch-guns be equipable as normal weapons, or perhaps taking up both gun slots, was a far better idea. 

To sum up, they're too weak, the requirements for them are too high, I'm not investing any leveling time, forma, plat, or even credits into something that I can't depend on in a fight, the deployment breaks combat flow in horrendous ways, and the mission-breaking re-deployment timer make them a pain to use....they are not in any way a boost to the feeling of power you are supposed to get playing this game.  They are simply a debuff, and feel foisted upon you in the Profit-Taker fight.

So please, just make them immediately summonable on foot and in Archwing, and above all else, please, please get rid of the horrible, paralyzing, death-inducing summoning animation.  It's the worst part of calling on your Arch-gun, and enough to just never use it unless forced.

Edited by GunRaptor9000
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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Heavy Weapon Cooldown

Do you know that many times we cannot switch back to our primary or secondary weapons after having the heavy weapon out? This caused serious problem when we need to take down the shield at the selectable-elemental-damage stages.

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The Profit Taker Bounties

Phase 1 has 3 parts, so I assume it will be fair to have 3 rewards for phase 1? Phase 3 has 2 parts, so 2 rewards fair?

 

Also, many times players find Orb Vallis a bit unfun because a lot of enemies caused AOE damage to us, one-shotting us, for example those laser towers that are retractable on top of stuffs or buildings, their AOE radius is so huge that even the laser itself missed us, the AOE affect can kill us. Yes, many times those will 1 shot us, which includes the laser fired from the moving Coildrivez. Players happy happy riding k-drive and suddenly just died without know why, because they are one-shotted by the laser fired from moving Coildrive. 

I know Scott said you guys can easily do things that balanced out our supreme power dominance in the game but having such AOE damage trolls from so many enemies in orb vallis is just.... unfun, unfair, you name it.

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The Profit Taker Bounties mission stages are not synchronize with NPC conversations. We have to wait to finish their talk.

Edited by TarekMansur

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10 minutes ago, (XB1)beetalogist said:

Also, this has nothing to do with the Orb Mother, but since people are talking about it (in relation to the Staticor):
Why does self-damage exist in Warframe? Why does a fast-paced, squad-based, chaotic as hell shooter have self-damage? It seems horribly counterintuitive.

Shhhhh....Chroma users will be VERY sad if they entirely remove self-damage.....

 

....but then again....you're entirely correct.  It makes weapons like the Lenz, Ogris, and others entirely lulz-based rather than legitimately fun.

Also, I'm very against this nerfing of the Staticor....they became a go-to weapon of Scatter Bullet and Kamehameha action for me while they were buffed....but now it's back in the bin of "maybe I'll use that gun at some point.....and so much for the forma I threw at it."

Serious Note: To be entirely honest as a consumer, I feel bait-and-switched with this nerfing of it, due to the time and forma investment I put into them, and I can't say that I entirely buy the idea that their buffing earlier in the year was a mistake.  DE, you only get so many times I let you slide with lines like that, but you're generally the ABSOLUTE BEST in terms of not being EA, so you get more latitude than I would give to most other companies.  That still doesn't mean that I'm not feeling "bait-and-switched" regarding the Staticor......

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16 minutes ago, FoxyKabam said:

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Honestly I think this is why the sporb fights require ground AW guns - otherwise, no one would use them because AW guns are garbage and getting the mods to make them not garbage is a massive ballache.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Generally speaking from a broad design sense, the intent here is to have a powerful change of pace in combat, not a complete replacement of your weaponry for all time. This is an 'oh yeah' power moment that will continue to undergo balance changes to feel a bit less punishing.  

They really don't provide that 'oh yeah' moment though.  These changes are a good start, but I really really think you guys should reconsider how this was implemented.  A lot of people are displeased with this and would have easily preferred the original pitch from when this feature was first revealed, i.e. taking up both primary and secondary slots.  I really dont think having them as a boss-battle gimmick is compelling game design *or* doing justice to these weapons.

(I mostly just was really looking forward to playing a Heavy toting around a Minigun.)

 

If i had to make a suggestion, i would keep their current implementation as is, but *also* add in the original two-slot idea for those who would like it to their primary.  The Primary version could even use the base stats and not the "heavy" stats as to not be too OP. (Not that I really think they would be THAT op...)

Edited by hellaFelon
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2 minutes ago, Kyrosiris said:

Honestly I think this is why the sporb fights require ground AW guns - otherwise, no one would use them because AW guns are garbage and getting the mods to make them not garbage is a massive ballache.

Literally an amp with a cooldown then lol

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1 minute ago, hellaFelon said:

(I mostly just was really looking forward to playing a Heavy toting around a Minigun.)

Likewise....and I kinda feel robbed of that.

I have more forma in my Imperator Vandal than in my Supra Vandal, and I feel like I'm downgrading by pulling out my Imperator Vandal....once every TEN MINUTES.

(most missions don't even last half that long in this game....what were they thinking?)

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

a) Heavy Weapon Cooldown

Heavy Weapons are not powerful by any stretch. I have them all modded out and ANY of my to-go handweapons outclass them by far. 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

b) The Profit Taker Rewards: Debt Tokens, Actual Profit (aka a big stack of Credits), and possibly an Articula!

Are you playing your own game? Anyone who takes this boss down is max solaris rank. This means Debt-Tokens (I assume you mean Debt-Bonds) are useless. I hope you mean something else. Also Credits and an Articula? Those you call rewards? CREDITS??

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

e) The Profit Taker fight.

The fight is actually hilariously easy and requires zero coordination. It's a DPS race. A team of 4 chromas kill it in under 5 minutes. 

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