Today's Math Quiz - If you double the base damage of a weapon, but cut the magazine size in half, how does this affect the DPS?

[angryjanitor]

Answer: It is EXACTLY THE SAME.

 

Somehow DE takes what is probably already the worst weapon in the game (the Tonkor, 0.75 Riven Disposition, trash damage compared to anything else, fires duds at <6m, nevermind the self-damage) and manages to make it even worse by adding 50% damage falloff.

(And nevermind that "650 damage 1 magazine" is objectively worse than "325 damage 2 magazine" when you have 2 separate targets more than 5m apart, which is basically 99% of the time in Warframe)

[Obviousclone]

don't know about you but I'll happily take 11k hunter munition slash procs over the 3k ones on my tonkor any day of the week

[DeMonkey]

You have failed math.

The answer is not "It is exactly the same" as there are too many variables to consider such as reload time and fire rate.

E.g. Take a weapon that does 100 damage per shot, has a mag size of 10, a fire rate of 5 and a reload of 2 seconds. That gives you a sustained DPS of 250.

Double the damage and halve the mag size.

Now you have 200 damage per shot, a mag of 5, a fire rate of 5 and a reload of 2 seconds.

You now have a sustained DPS of 333.33.

I realise this isn't the point your making, you're just making it really badly.

[.Unreality]

It varies depending on the reload speed and fire rate.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Unreality0

[angryjanitor]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

You have failed math.

The answer is not "It is exactly the same" as there are too many variables to consider such as reload time and fire rate.

E.g. Take a weapon that does 100 damage per shot, has a mag size of 10, a fire rate of 5 and a reload of 2 seconds. That gives you a sustained DPS of 250.

Double the damage and halve the mag size.

Now you have 200 damage per shot, a mag of 5, a fire rate of 5 and a reload of 2 seconds.

You now have a sustained DPS of 333.33.

I realise this isn't the point your making, you're just making it really badly.

You're right, Guess it was me that needed math class today.

I incorrectly assumed that both mag and dmg would scale the same, not knowing the exact formula and they don't (although they Approximately do, so my initial point stands). And there are not "too many variables to consider" like you stated, there are exactly 4 variables, 2 of which are constant (fire rate and reload are unchanged at least at the time of the initial Profit Taker patch, the fire rate was later hotfixed). I am excluding Crit/Crit/Damage/elements because those apply equally to both cases and simply factor into a longer formula for the numerator Damage.

In case anyone is wondering the Sustained DPS formula is Damage / (1/fire rate + reload/mag)

Edited December 19, 2018 by angryjanitor

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, angryjanitor said:

And there are not "too many variables to consider" like you stated, there are exactly 4 variables

Cool story bro. Not sure what you hope to accomplish with this.

An example of another variable would be something like Synth Charge, which deals damage on the last shot of a mag, and thus benefits having a lower magazine more than a higher magazine.

Then there's (as you mentioned) the ability to target multiple enemies with 2 shots instead of 1, essentially giving you a greater AoE and effective DPS which thus favours having a larger magazine.

Variables.

[angryjanitor]

6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Cool story bro. Not sure what you hope to accomplish with this.

An example of another variable would be something like Synth Charge, which deals damage on the last shot of a mag, and thus benefits having a lower magazine more than a higher magazine.

Then there's (as you mentioned) the ability to target multiple enemies with 2 shots instead of 1, essentially giving you a greater AoE and effective DPS which thus favours having a larger magazine.

Variables.

Synth charge is for pistols, try again.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, angryjanitor said:

Synth charge is for pistols, try again.

No? It was an example of a variable that directly affects the math you gave outside of reload/fire rate. You claimed there is exactly 4 variables, there is not, you are wrong.

Stop trying to be pedantic, it's not working.

And don't bother trying again.

[WingR84]

DeMonkey is right.

If your mag has 100 bullets and you deal 10 damage per bullet.... lets try some math here:

100*10=1000 flat damage

Based on the enemys armour your damage can be lowerd by... lets say 5:

100*(10-5)= 500 damage

But if you give your weapon 100% more damage and lower the mag by 50% you get this:

50*(20-5)=750 damage

But since we think in status and crit the damage becomes a lot more complicated. The real question is... is more DPS overkill or does it make sense to kill the enemys as fast as you can, because they deal damage that you dont want to tank? My Supra has 300 Bullets and i never empty the magazine, so i would love the damage over magsize, while on other weapons i wouldnt use something like this.

Edited December 19, 2018 by WingR84

[angryjanitor]

16 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No? It was an example of a variable that directly affects the math you gave outside of reload/fire rate. You claimed there is exactly 4 variables, there is not, you are wrong.

Stop trying to be pedantic, it's not working.

And don't bother trying again.

There are no other variables because we are comparing a tonkor to a hotfixed tonkor. They literally have the same variables except for the exact variables that were changed.

And the fact that the best edge case scenario you could name was Synth Charge ( a pistol mod which can't even apply to Tonkor) should tell you just how many other "variables" there actually are.

[angryjanitor]

17 minutes ago, WingR84 said:

DeMonkey is right.

If your mag has 100 bullets and you deal 10 damage per bullet.... lets try some math here:

100*10=1000 flat damage

Based on the enemys armour your damage can be lowerd by... lets say 5:

100*(10-5)= 500 damage

But if you give your weapon 100% more damage and lower the mag by 50% you get this:

50*(20-5)=750 damage

But since we think in status and crit the damage becomes a lot more complicated. The real question is... is more DPS overkill or does it make sense to kill the enemys as fast as you can, because they deal damage that you dont want to tank? My Supra has 300 Bullets and i never empty the magazine, so i would love the damage over magsize, while on other weapons i wouldnt use something like this.

Here's the formula for sustained dps:  = Damage / (1/fire rate + reload/mag)

Crit/CritDamage/Status etc just roll into the numerator Damage and therefore scale equally when compare a Tonkor to a Hotfixed Tonkor.

Here is the full formula for everything included in "damage" if you really care, but it will be exactly the same when comparing a Tonkor to a Tonkor

baseDmg * (1+dmgMods) * (1+mltShotMods) * (1+(baseCritDmg*(1+critDmgMods)-1)*(baseCritChnc*(1+critChncMods)+vigiChnc)) * (1 + elemMods) / (1/fireRate + reloadTime/magSize)

[DeMonkey]

On 2018-12-19 at 10:27 PM, angryjanitor said:

There are no other variables because we are comparing a tonkor to a hotfixed tonkor. They literally have the same variables except for the exact variables that were changed.

And the fact that the best edge case scenario you could name was Synth Charge ( a pistol mod which can't even apply to Tonkor) should tell you just how many other "variables" there actually are.

You gave a statement that double damage/half mag results in the same DPS, and then went on to complain about the Tonkor.

You're also disingenuously not mentioning the fact that I actually pointed out in your defence that 1 shot instead of 2 reduces the effective AoE you can cover, and thus reduces effective DPS.

That is another variable.

Another variable that would affect effective DPS in this context is status chance, half the mag causes you to fire less shots and thus get less status procs. If you're relying on corrosive procs, you'll suffer.

You initial math was wrong because you don't take into account variables.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

On top of all of that, what if you are being knocked down/Status Affected by Toxic that you cannot reload/ Commander Teleported (which I detest the new fall on your back thing it does now)/get bounced off the map/weapon is taken while you are reloading/Pulled across the ground?

These are a few variables that can alter your DPS as they interrupt you for a few seconds....which extends that PS 

Play on..... 

[Genesix6]

Depends on the weapon, and the build itself and what enemy you are fighting

What weapon exactly is it primary, secondary or melee

Is it a crit build, a status build, or hybrid build

On what enemy. Corpus, grineer, infested

 

[jfhsanseiIII]

Depends on a lot more than those two variables mate. 

[dEjAvU5566]

It's never the same, considering what you can do with mods.

IMO I would rather choose a 1 mag weapon which has 200damage rather than 2 mag weapon with 100 damage, as long as reload time is fast.

[(XBOX)Kuljack]

19 hours ago, angryjanitor said:

Here's the formula for sustained dps:  = Damage / (1/fire rate + reload/mag)

Crit/CritDamage/Status etc just roll into the numerator Damage and therefore scale equally when compare a Tonkor to a Hotfixed Tonkor.

Here is the full formula for everything included in "damage" if you really care, but it will be exactly the same when comparing a Tonkor to a Tonkor

baseDmg * (1+dmgMods) * (1+mltShotMods) * (1+(baseCritDmg*(1+critDmgMods)-1)*(baseCritChnc*(1+critChncMods)+vigiChnc)) * (1 + elemMods) / (1/fireRate + reloadTime/magSize)

lol are you just trying to sound smart with this formula? It keeps growing but it keeps getting worse. You are lacking quite a number of closing parenthesis in your equation. Also, where the hell is your status chance and DOT from certain elements, and accuracy would need factored in?

Fire Rate itself is a problematic variable in the equation because not all weapons fire the same, regardless of the noted fire rate. For Example, is it Automatic, Semi-Automatic, Charge or Burst? What kind of dexterity does the player have for maintaining a flawless trigger pull?

This is why the math alone cannot tell the story of what weapons work best. If you have a weapon that deals incredible DPS, but has terrible accuracy or has slow projectile flight speed or arcing shots or any other factor that plays into missing a shot, your actual DPS diminishes quite extraordinarily.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

And let's not forget the difference between paper dps, simulacrum dps, and mission dps, of which there are dozens of mission types. So what is great in a simulacrum against level 150 enemies may be suboptimal in the star chart since the damage isn't needed and utility is what matters.

In a nutshell, this entire topic is pointless without very specific conditions.