BL4CKN0ISE Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I've been thinking about this since Fortuna released and I've hesitated to talk about it because I honestly love more challenge in the game. Fighting enemies on Orb Vallis is fun, but something is very odd about the enemies. I started thinking about the original reason for Nullifiers. I understand how they helped with the balance. Corpus can be an extremely weak faction and if Nullifiers didn't exist, they would be way too easy to destroy with the push of a button. That being said, I sometimes don't even know what's happening when I'm on Orb Vallis. It's like everything is reversed. They're like a bunch of Warframes just using endless abilities and mods. Right now they have everything. They hit hard, they stagger and knock us around all the time, sometimes you will see 10, 15, or more Nullified enemies, and sometimes an enemy will sprint at cheetah speed and then instantly bring up a Nullifier bubble right on top of you. Combas, jackals, hyenas, raptors, etc. all create a chaotic experience that can be fun, but I don't know if it makes any sense if you're concerned about balance. I'm not even completely sure how I feel about it. It never really bothered me until the most recent update. Fighting an Orb Mother really showcases just how powerful Corpus enemies can be. It's not just one thing. It's the combination of staggers, knockbacks, enemy damage, draining our energy, nullifying our abilities, and then the addition of the cumbersome archguns, which leave us extremely vulnerable while equipping and reloading. Tbh, it's probably ONLY the Archguns that make it so frustrating, because like I said, it never bothered me before now. 😉 A challenging experience should sometimes be frustrating. That's just how challenging games are. You sometimes need to take a break and then come back and conquer that challenge later. Sometimes it just seems like DE is trying to create challenging content by just focusing on the frustrating part. It's not frustrating because it's challenging. It's only "challenging" because it's frustrating. This is something I've also noticed with Arbitrations and Elite Onslaught to a lesser degree. With Arbitrations, the rotations are twice as long and we need to deal with arbitration drones. Even the one life aspect sounds good on paper if you want challenge, but it actually doesn't work very well. It's super weird for squads, and you're not trying to die anyways when you're doing endurance. So with Arbitrations it's just frustrating because how you die will probably be cheap. A sea of pink enemies you can't damage and a drone in the middle is an example of how things can go bad pretty quickly if a leech or something is in there as well. All it means is you probably can't play again for awhile if you die. It just doesn't feel more challenging, but it can definitely be frustrating. Idk, I guess it's just something to think about. I'm not sure what the answer is since I'm not a developer, but I hope DE can create challenging content that doesn't just focus on enemy invulnerability periods, time-gating, staggers/knockdowns, etc. Anything that slows down the gameplay or make it less smooth just doesn't fit in a "Space Ninja" game IMO. And please tell Corpus to just chill. What is wrong with them? 😁 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I don't mind a bit higher damage from them but the amount of stagger (I've literally been stuck trying to reload for nearly a minute due to stagger and the way the reload animation resets), bounce mines (I believe I can fly....) and nullifiers in confined spaces can get a bit excessive. Like many others I don't think challenging should just mean 'nerf our abilities' or stop us from doing things. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterc3 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 21 minutes ago, BL4CKN0ISE said: That being said, I sometimes don't even know what's happening when I'm on Orb Vallis. It's like everything is reversed. They're like a bunch of Warframes just using endless abilities and mods. Right now they have everything. They hit hard, they stagger and knock us around all the time, sometimes you will see 10, 15, or more Nullified enemies, and sometimes an enemy will sprint at cheetah speed and then instantly bring up a Nullifier bubble right on top of you. Combas, jackals, hyenas, raptors, etc. all create a chaotic experience that can be fun, but I don't know if it makes any sense if you're concerned about balance. DE tried to bring OV enemies back into line with their level but the vocal majority threw a fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Bv-Psykiik Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, LSG501 said: Like many others I don't think challenging should just mean 'nerf our abilities' or stop us from doing things. ^THAT .. my inaros when reach 2k HP I hit and hold 2 to any nearest corpus to heal myself but in the middle of cast ability animation I found myself on the air and befor I hit the ground again I find myself in air and like 40 m away .. can't cast any ability that has long animation, can't reload, cat get my archgin .. its ceazy who would imagine that corpus open world will be tougher than Grinner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GinKenshin Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 All those credits have to go into something ;3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BL4CKN0ISE Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, GinKenshin said: All those credits have to go into something ;3 Lol...that actually explains it. They're so rich now and they get all the best stuff. 😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Herrwann69 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 il y a une heure, BL4CKN0ISE a dit : 😉 😁 Say thank you to those who cry out loud everytime DE's try to balance something nerfing it the good way. Somes want powerfantasycheesingmasskilling game and hate the feel to be challenged so DE's give them press 4 to win abilities and Arca Plasmor. But on the other side somes ask for challenge to test their overpowerd build, but no way they want to feel less powerful, they just want the enemies to looks harder but to be cheesy like low level's ones. The result is Orb Vallis, a mix of everything with no balance. It's must be as frustrating for DE as is it for you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BL4CKN0ISE Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 hour ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said: Say thank you to those who cry out loud everytime DE's try to balance something nerfing it the good way. Somes want powerfantasycheesingmasskilling game and hate the feel to be challenged so DE's give them press 4 to win abilities and Arca Plasmor. But on the other side somes ask for challenge to test their overpowerd build, but no way they want to feel less powerful, they just want the enemies to looks harder but to be cheesy like low level's ones. The result is Orb Vallis, a mix of everything with no balance. It's must be as frustrating for DE as is it for you. Yeah, that makes sense. It is kinda strange. We want to be powerful, but we also want a challenge. It's like every Superman game. They take away his powers to make it a challenge, but the entire point of a Superman game is to feel like Superman. I never really thought about it but I definitely agree. DE is probably having a frustrating time trying to develop content for us. I'm still having fun, so it's not a huge deal. At least they're listening. I think they just don't know what to do since we all want something different, and at the core most of us want some type of power fantasy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 They don't have armor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 The irony of nullifiers contributing to power creep 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous_A Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Knockdown and stagger are somehow manageable with proper build and using operator but I hate GETTING PUSHED BACK all the time they don't count as status effect too so Oberon/Inaros/Rhino are useless against it. Even worse sometimes you get pushed into water and you lose control for a moment and die because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerberos-3 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, LSG501 said: I don't mind a bit higher damage from them but the amount of stagger (I've literally been stuck trying to reload for nearly a minute due to stagger and the way the reload animation resets), bounce mines (I believe I can fly....) and nullifiers in confined spaces can get a bit excessive. Like many others I don't think challenging should just mean 'nerf our abilities' or stop us from doing things. My main issue is with the Trenchers. Most other enemies are manageable, even the constant onslaught of Nully bubbles is tolerable for me(thank god for Galvacord with Burning Wasp stance). Trenchers, however, are as broken and cheese-laden as one can get with a melee unit. They come out on nowhere, have multiple forms of Player annoyance(Knockback on landing, stagger on flyby, Stagger on Melee hit), and they always spawn in pairs resulting in complete player lockdown unless you have a friend that can kill them for you. They need to be dealt with, ASAP. Edited December 20, 2018 by Kerberos-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misgenesis Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 3 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said: but I hope DE can create challenging content that doesn't just focus on enemy invulnerability periods, time-gating, staggers/knockdowns, etc. Consequence of player power increasing over the years. We could be enjoying challenging content without CC spam from enemies if we werent capable of one shotting level 100+ enemies. Suggestions to fix player power is met with backlash, DE is only allowed to increase enemy difficulty which only creates more problems. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCBeastie Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I was thinking the other day about Corpus in universe are up to some really advanced stuff: Remember how the Sentients subverted Orokin tech and they had to go medieval? So far the Corpus have used Tenno tech (Zanuka), Infested biology (Good old Alad) and now Sentient (Battacor etc). I think they're going to take over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingvaldemir Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, BL4CKN0ISE said: They're like a bunch of Warframes just using endless abilities and mods. Let me share my personal experience with enemies from Vallis. Like many of us here, I too was surprised with Corpus's unit on Vallis. Like you said, they hit hard and they have a lot of tools on their arsenal. But when I die and my warframe lied on the cold snow of Venus, I smiled and think "finally! A worthy challenge". I hit that revive button and I try again. I take notes of their behavior and their skill, so I know which one is dangerous and how should I deal with them. If they have nulli, I take out my high fire rate weapon. If they are immune to skills (hyenas) I use my high damage weapon to 1 shot them. Bunch of insignificant corpus can be easily dealt with aoe skill or high range melee. Every tool for every problem. The CC are annoying, yes but somehow I don't have much trouble with it. I just moved away from the granades and kill the one that launched it. Reload problem can be taken care with auto reload from synth mods, switching gun, or CC them then reload, or just dash out from the crowd then reload. I feel like enemies in vallis are truly engage us. They are the one that come and attack us, demanding us to react. Kinda contrary with the rest of enemies outside of Vallis that mostly just there and shoot stuffs. It works for me and some other, but I really would like to know what others thought. 3 hours ago, LSG501 said: Like many others I don't think challenging should just mean 'nerf our abilities' or stop us from doing things. Okay first, please don't be offended. I'm purely just curious. If its not nerf our abilities (I assume you mean nullies?) and stop us doing things (CC) then what is challenge? Enemies that attack us using high damage and CC were complained by players. Okay, so now they are the one that defend them self using nulies and arbitration drone. Some called it artificial difficulty. Or perhaps simply high sustain enemies? Some would called it 'simple bullet sponges'. Or theres more? Maybe the infested moa that shoot yellow goo stuffs are a good example? They deal quite some damage and have CC into it but it doesnt interrupt our actions, just slowing us down. Another idea is telegraphed attack like those in MMORPGs. We have to dodge it, otherwise we can take tons of damage if we get hit. Just some ideas, but what qualifies as challenge in your opinion? Edited December 20, 2018 by kingvaldemir 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX-3DR Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 I don't get why people have so much difficulties in finding 2 seconds to reload. Unless you're sitting still, all you need to do is Bullet Jump away from the crowd and stay off the ground for a few good seconds with an Aim Glide. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerberos-3 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 34 minutes ago, RX-3DR said: I don't get why people have so much difficulties in finding 2 seconds to reload. Unless you're sitting still, all you need to do is Bullet Jump away from the crowd and stay off the ground for a few good seconds with an Aim Glide. Providers shoving you to ground, Trenchers and Embattler Moas knock you about, or you just get stunlocked to death by a pair of Trenchers meleeing you one after another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obviousclone Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 If this content is too hard, then you should be playing the other parts of the game that make you strong enough to handle this part of the game alert level 4/old mate level bounties are level 50-60 (and higher) content which means it should be harder than the level 0-50 starchart content that everyone's used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RX-3DR Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said: Providers shoving you to ground, Trenchers and Embattler Moas knock you about, or you just get stunlocked to death by a pair of Trenchers meleeing you one after another. Trenchers start a dash towards your current location and slam the ground. This can be avoided by staying on the move and away from the ground. If you get swarmed by a group of them, it's no different from getting yourself stuck in a corner from a bunch of Rollers, you allowed a bad situation to get worse. Embattlers have limited range and their hooks are thrown off by sudden movements so don't run in a straight line. Provisors have limited range and their beams do not disrupt you, only push you away. Don't stand underneath and they will just push you away from everything else. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingvaldemir Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, RX-3DR said: Trenchers start a dash towards your current location and slam the ground. This can be avoided by staying on the move and away from the ground. If you get swarmed by a group of them, it's no different from getting yourself stuck in a corner from a bunch of Rollers, you allowed a bad situation to get worse. Embattlers have limited range and their hooks are thrown off by sudden movements so don't run in a straight line. Provisors have limited range and their beams do not disrupt you, only push you away. Don't stand underneath and they will just push you away from everything else. This! Finally! Observe, learn, counter. I think people are already used to with enemies without any mechanics, thus making them unwilling to learn new enemies's mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancars Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) I got attacked by 2 trencher's and they seem to chain stagger me and i couldn't fight back at all. stagger stagger stagger stagger stagger stagger. I was vex chroma so it took them forever but i died cause i couldn't fight back 😕 I'm fine with things being hard but when you get stagger locked by one of the more basic units it just robs you of the feeling power that game is suppose to give you. I worry thats where the game will end up because High HP and cheap mechanics don't make games good. Edited December 20, 2018 by Lancars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)teacup775 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Marvelous_A said: Knockdown and stagger are somehow manageable with proper build and using operator but I hate GETTING PUSHED BACK all the time they don't count as status effect too so Oberon/Inaros/Rhino are useless against it. Even worse sometimes you get pushed into water and you lose control for a moment and die because of it. Yeh, but it means we have to start paying attention to terrain. Poked my nose into the space port to play with a gorgon + impressive riven rng gave me (no roll). The spawns are a bit cheezy frankly. StarTrek teleports are a lame, but frankly of the community doesn’t walk or limp away with some comprehension that higher level the necessary or sufficient condition for better game play, this is it. Simply adding a ton of CC makes life harder. The corpus are simply spamming abilities, like warframes. I could be snarky and say it’s the only trick DE knows. Combat from the 90s and not a lot different from Doom II (minus parkour). Reaper Hunter made a recent post about an upcoming title. The telling comment is that the devs are listening to streamers about replay-ability, thus are drawing lessons from Destiny, Division and Warframe. I’m sitting back and watching how this unfolds, because that’s content imma be allover.. that and bl3 (if gbox doesn’t mess it up). DE and a lot of other studios will have to up their game. A lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)teacup775 Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Lancars said: I got attacked by 2 trencher's and they seem to chain stagger me and i couldn't fight back at all. stagger stagger stagger stagger stagger stagger. I was vex chroma so it took them forever but i died cause i couldn't fight back 😕 Just got out of playing in the space port. Got hit by two of them too, and got out of it (tenno). Learn a lesson. Note your foes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancars Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said: Just got out of playing in the space port. Got hit by two of them too, and got out of it (tenno). Learn a lesson. Note your foes. I tried but i was being smacked around so much the game wouldn't let me. I would have been able to void strike them and then kill them but again i was locked out of my controls basically and i don't like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtflag Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) I'm sure the people laughing at prime-surefoot wish they have it now 😄 Unfortunately I'm only 200 days so i'm also one of those guys. 😂 Edited December 20, 2018 by wtflag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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