Unpopular opinion- Revenant is actually good

[Jabberwookie87]

after finially getting him and finding a build.. I've seen a few youtube videos and people saying he is mastery trash... um. I disagree

[Colyeses]

Well... Could you clarify?

It is also worth noting that he has been buffed since his release, though not by much.

[Femuru]

i meeeaaan in very high lvl he isnt very efficient tho i wouldnt say he is one of the absolute worst but he still need alittle tweak/buff, cuz lets face it if we are talking normal regular content then u can grab almost anyone wit aoe to start nuking the map.

[NinjaZeku]

He's decently tanky and can deal ~good damage, if in a weird / limited way.

But that's it already, half his abilities are just not worth using,
other Frames can nuke the map faster / without LOS restrictions,
and / or bring more to the Squad support-wise.

[Jabberwookie87]

basically I use augar and a balanced build leaning mostly on strength but no negitives and 2 forma(sofar)... makes him a damn good shield tank... his 1, as brizom(I think that how his name is spelt) put it, " a cheap knock off of nyx's 1" I entirely disagree with.... using him tactically and the right weapon set up, he can cause enough chaos to take the heat off the party and use his 1 to entirely passify targets like Nox and bombards and pop them if you like and you can spam the hell out of it. Its not really meant to be used like nekros or nyx. his 2 you can refresh over and over and any hits put dudes to sleep, allowing you the 1 them or kill them..his 3 is meh... but if you need to pass though mobs in a pinch I guess... and his 4 is his 4.. one thing id like to mention is after say a defense round... the thralls run back to him.. push 4 and clean house and boosts your shield... idk... I don't like to over explain because id probably have to make a video to showcase what I am saying propery and its not my goal to cause arguments, as threads like these tend to cause.. to each their own... used in the right situation he is fun and useful as hell from what I have experienced.. anyone can add me in game and I can show better than explain.

[Jabberwookie87]

yeah, way upper levels I could see the game change probably.. not something I have tried (like in sorties, arbs)... but I am just kinda meaning him in a "everyday use kinda way." I wanted to mention this because I have seen people struggle with him and say hes trash... he may need some tweeking but I think hes pretty good when used the right way.

Edit: sorry meant to quote you shenryujin

Edited December 21, 2018 by Jabberwookie87
missing quote

[Jabberwookie87]

13 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

He's decently tanky and can deal ~good damage, if in a weird / limited way.

But that's it already, half his abilities are just not worth using,
other Frames can nuke the map faster / without LOS restrictions,
and / or bring more to the Squad support-wise.

"other frames can nuke the map faster"

heres the thing... are all the frames on "nuking" scale? I mean if you are comparing flat dps to other frames and thats the way you play then I'd understand how he and other frames would be underwhelming. But thats not the comparison I was trying to make. I don't think he is a dps or "nuke" frame... his 4 is really it for damage and I don't think it was meant to compete with frames like saryn.

[NinjaZeku]

1 minute ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

thats not the comparison I was trying to make. I don't think he is a dps or "nuke" frame... his 4 is really it for damage and I don't think it was meant to compete with frames like saryn

... so what is he, then? What's the reason to choose Revenant over all other Frames?
(Other than just that you find his abilities fun, which is of course a totally fine reason to play any Frame.)

Nobody (worth listening to) is saying he's not usable, but ultimately,
the "complete package" falls very much flat compared to (most, lol e.g. Wukong) other Frames, I find.

[Jabberwookie87]

also another interesting note is if the only enemies left are entralled ones on a defense... it will move to the next round. It doesnt hold the timer... not sure if thats widely known... also mark targets like nox...(so it shows ally) so you know when he goes aggro again so you can re pop1! and kill him or whatever you please.

[Jabberwookie87]

2 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

... so what is he, then? What's the reason to choose Revenant over all other Frames?
(Other than just that you find his abilities fun, which is of course a totally fine reason to play any Frame.)

Nobody (worth listening to) is saying he's not usable, but ultimately,
the "complete package" falls very much flat compared to (most, lol e.g. Wukong) other Frames, I find.

Idk guy lol "I" find him useful... if you want to run other frames... thats your thing... like I said, to each their own... he might not be your cup of tea, we all like and dislike different stuff and have different play styles... I take all youtube reviewers with a grain of salt because alot of time just sit in the simulacrum and think that is the end all be all test. no. he is more CC ish and his ability to pacify targets completely and able to damage them I find extremely useful, and tanky with an augur set up.... but where, why and how you use him is up to you... lots of frames and favors on how things get done. I just disagree that he is trash and not all frames are direct DPS... hence why I think using that as a scale is trash.

[Eterud]

I think that Revenant is one of the strongest DPS tanks in the game.

He can easily keep up with nidus, inaros , oberon , rhino and the like if played correctly.

- His DPS can easily keep up with Volt/Equinox and in some occasions Saryn
- His tankability is equal to that of Rhino, Oberon
- He is a lower version of controlling the crowd than Nyx
- he can restore health and shields

What more do you want? xD

[JohnLemon123]

It's not so much about whether he's actually good as it is about his current kit when considering his alleged ''theme'' 

He's all over the place, unfocused, and has no clear gameplay loop beyond ''press 2, then press 4 or spam 1 and 3''

On top of that, half of his kit feels like it belongs on another warframe (those being his first and third) and while the other half hits the mark visually and thematically, they're both awfully boring and offer little to no player input. The thrall mechanic feels tacked on for the sake of shoehorning the pseudo-vampire aspect onto a warframe that had no business being associated with it. 

And worst of all, it didn't need to happen. think about the eidolons and their boss fights, think about all the kinds of crazy warframe abilities that could've been created based on them. let's just quicly run over a small list. he could've had, among others :

• The eidolon arm swipe
• The ''slam'' followed by an eruption
• The stomp(s)
• The teralyst starfall
• The vomvalyst heeding call
• The homing explosive bullets
• The gauntulyst's protective shell
• The gautulyst's skylasers 
• The hydrolyst's acid rain
• The hydrolyst's buildup nukes
• The hydrolyst's ''bloom portal'' that summons and buffs vomvalysts

Obviously, only some of those abilities could've made it, but that besides the point. what i'm getting at is this : there was more than enough source material to develop into a full-fledged, unique kit. but what did we get instead ?

conjectures and workarounds, because someone couldn't let go :

• Enthrall : well, sentients (not eidolons) could technically control orokin tech, so it's possible that they could mind control people
• Mesmer skin : it kinda acts like an eidolon armor, maybe ?
• Reave : it sorta works like a vomvalyst charge i guess ? and that's only after it's effects changed.
• Danse macabre : it's similar to gauntulyst's rotating lasers, but i wager that's nore of an accident than anything.

So to answer your statement : is revenant any good ? sure, he's alright. But he's a mess. 

[Shelusine]

 

55 minutes ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

heres the thing... are all the frames on "nuking" scale?

"Here" is the thing. This is what you do in warframe : you kill or you make it easier to kill. Meaning dps, nuke, CC, buffs and debuffs are king. Things like you mentioned as "shield tank" are technically useless. Even Rhino who is one of the "meta tanks" is taken for his damage buff not for his tanking abilities. No one cares that you can sit there and take damage, it's fun but that's it, the way you increase the clearing speed or chances of your group is what matters  So yes, the way you judge the "worth" of a frame is their killing or killing enhancement potential. No one said that you had to be Saryn to reach a decent rank in that tho, take for instance mag, her dps is far lower than Saryn but she debuffs, CC and boost damages to a very high degree and even provide support as an addition. She will boost the killing potential of a team to a high degree without necessarily be geared toward sheer dps and most "good" frames are like that. 

No one said that you couldn't have fun with the frame tho. Technically that's what matters the most, for the frame to be enjoyable to the player base and I honestly don't even think Revenant is that bad, it's more like his kit is weird and doesn't really ties well. But it doesn't remove objective balance out of the equation and shouldn't prevent players who care about such balance to ask for possible changes to make their frame get out of the mediocre/decent category. It doesn't change anything for you, it changes a lot for them. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Shelusine

[Jabberwookie87]

14 minutes ago, JohnLemon123 said:

It's not so much about whether he's actually good as it is about his current kit when considering his alleged ''theme'' 

He's all over the place, unfocused, and has no clear gameplay loop beyond ''press 2, then press 4 or spam 1 and 3''

On top of that, half of his kit feels like it belongs on another warframe (those being his first and third) and while the other half hits the mark visually and thematically, they're both awfully boring and offer little to no player input. The thrall mechanic feels tacked on for the sake of shoehorning the pseudo-vampire aspect onto a warframe that had no business being associated with it. 

And worst of all, it didn't need to happen. think about the eidolons and their boss fights, think about all the kinds of crazy warframe abilities that could've been created based on them. let's just quicly run over a small list. he could've had, among others :

• The eidolon arm swipe
• The ''slam'' followed by an eruption
• The stomp(s)
• The teralyst starfall
• The vomvalyst heeding call
• The homing explosive bullets
• The gauntulyst's protective shell
• The gautulyst's skylasers 
• The hydrolyst's acid rain
• The hydrolyst's buildup nukes
• The hydrolyst's ''bloom portal'' that summons and buffs vomvalysts

Obviously, only some of those abilities could've made it, but that besides the point. what i'm getting at is this : there was more than enough source material to develop into a full-fledged, unique kit. but what did we get instead ?

conjectures and workarounds, because someone couldn't let go :

• Enthrall : well, sentients (not eidolons) could technically control orokin tech, so it's possible that they could mind control people
• Mesmer skin : it kinda acts like an eidolon armor, maybe ?
• Reave : it sorta works like a vomvalyst charge i guess ? and that's only after it's effects changed.
• Danse macabre : it's similar to gauntulyst's rotating lasers, but i wager that's nore of an accident than anything.

So to answer your statement : is revenant any good ? sure, he's alright. But he's a mess. 

one thing I will agree with you on is thematically he is a mess.. you can tell they had an idea for him and then changed it last minute.. but if done right, and with the right mods... he works very well... as far as his abilities seeming like they belong on other frames... yes and no... but how many frames have similar abilities with their own flavor? really can't complain about that much. I see people comparing him to nyx and that his 4 is like mirages 4 but.. his 4 will bolster his shields.. the idea is when the thralls group up on you... you pop it, kill them, boost your shields.. the fonts cc and shoot stuffs.. his 2 cc'c who ever hits him and you can keep refreshing the stacks.. his 1 in my opinion is 1000 times more usful than nyx... it completely pacifies them(toward allies), they infect others and draw aggro, can leech the shields and damage them... making it awesome on big baddies. my only complaint is 3 but it heals him and allows him to pass through duders if you are cornered so.. I assume they wanted to have it stick to a tanky type usage but I wouldnt complain if it was completely replaced. all his abilities can be used in situations they are good in.. and synergize, how in the hell is that not good enough lol?

[Jabberwookie87]

32 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

 

"Here" is the thing. This is what you do in warframe : you kill or you make it easier to kill. Meaning dps, nuke, CC, buffs and debuffs are king. Things like you mentioned as "shield tank" are technically useless. Even Rhino who is one of the "meta tanks" is taken for his damage buff not for his tanking abilities. No one cares that you can sit there and take damage, it's fun but that's it, the way you increase the clearing speed or chances of your group is what matters  So yes, the way you judge the "worth" of a frame is their killing or killing enhancement potential. No one said that you had to be Saryn to reach a decent rank in that tho, take for instance mag, her dps is far lower than Saryn but she debuffs, CC and boost damages to a very high degree and even provide support as an addition. She will boost the killing potential of a team to a high degree without necessarily be geared toward sheer dps and most "good" frames are like that. 

No one said that you couldn't have fun with the frame tho. Technically that's what matters the most, for the frame to be enjoyable to the player base and I honestly don't even think Revenant is that bad, it's more like his kit is weird and doesn't really ties well. But it doesn't remove objective balance out of the equation and shouldn't prevent players who care about such balance to ask for possible changes to make their frame get out of the mediocre/decent category. It doesn't change anything for you, it changes a lot for them. 

I didnt just theorize his usage... I used it.. so 100% of what you said is your opinion. to each their own. as far as killing things... he can kill, he has weapons... his abilities are used to kill ultimately.. so he is a warframe. I have explained it several times now on how I use him.. and I find that it works.. so it is what it is. like you said, I find him fun and thats what matters:) I just think he is a little more difficult to build.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Jabberwookie87
sounded to harsh/defensive xD

[Shelusine]

5 minutes ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

I didnt just theorize his usage... I used it.. so 100% of what you said is your opinion. to each their own. as far as killing things... he can kill, he has weapons... his abilities are used to kill ultimately.. so he is a warframe. I have explained it several times now on how I use him.. and I find that it works.. so it is what it is.

What are you talking about ? You didn't read one bit of what I just said. Also, again, it's great that you have fun with it but It doesn't mean that someone who has played him for 4+ months everyday has the same opinion than you who just got it and simply find that it "works". That doesn't invalidate your opinion but you surely shouldn't try to invalidate theirs through your "to each their own" statement when objectively they have a vastly better understanding of what's wrong with the frame than you do. 

[Jabberwookie87]

3 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

What are you talking about ? You didn't read one bit of what I just said. Also, again, it's great that you have fun with it but It doesn't mean that someone who has played him for 4+ months everyday has the same opinion than you who just got it and simply find that it "works". That doesn't invalidate your opinion but you surely shouldn't try to invalidate theirs through your "to each their own" statement when objectively they have a vastly better understanding of what's wrong with the frame than you do. 

its late so I might have blurred what you meant in my head haha, I left an edit but I didn't want to change it too much, haha

But I disagree with them "vastly better undersanding" him, I think how he is used is vastly misunderstood. I didnt say that there was nothing wrong with him, and I havent used him in all situations... but just in the time I have used him I am having problems finding how he is mastery trash. I think there is a problem with people expecting too much out of each frame or wanting it to work how they want it too.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Jabberwookie87
added

[Shelusine]

56 minutes ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

its late so I might have blurred what you meant in my head haha, I left an edit but I didn't want to change it too much, haha

But I disagree with them "vastly better undersanding" him, I think how he is used is vastly misunderstood. I didnt say that there was nothing wrong with him, and I havent used him in all situations... but just in the time I have used him I am having problems finding how he is mastery trash. I think there is a problem with people expecting too much out of each frame or wanting it to work how they want it too.

I see, no problem. I know how it is.

Here is the thing, "objectively" someone who spends 100 more times on a frame than you has a far higher chance to have vastly better experience and understanding of the frame than yours. (Unless you are a genius who somehow understand things 100x faster than others but I wouldn't get ahead of myself in that regard.) "Maybe" you should spend a similar amount of time on him and "then" tell them that they misunderstand their frame ? Because I don't think too many people here have a too high expectation out of a warframe, There's just the casual players who simply like the have fun and the performers who wants to have a frame that has a similar impact to the others. Neither are wrong and neither should be invalidated in their plea if it's objectively justified.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Shelusine

[Jabberwookie87]

1 hour ago, Shelusine said:

I see, no problem. I know how it is.

Here is the thing, "objectively" someone who spends 100 more times on a frame than you has a far higher chance to have vastly better experience and understanding of the frame than yours. (Unless you are a genius who somehow understand things 100x faster than others but I wouldn't get ahead of myself in that regard.) "Maybe" you should spend a similar amount of time on him and "then" tell them that they misunderstand their frame ? Because I don't think too many people here have a too high expectation out of a warframe, There's just the casual players who simply like the have fun and the performers who wants to have a frame that has a similar impact to the others. Neither are wrong and neither should be invalidated in their plea if it's objectively justified.

I dont think thats really how it works. There are people in different fields or work, study, practice and time spent doesnt equate to "vastly knowing more." the more I use him the more I like him, even his 3. he is arguibly better than frames they have even reworked recently... a guy who spent everyday with him since he was out and thinks he is worse than what I am explaining I would and will entirely disagree with. Is he the "best frame" for what he does, probably not in all situations. But did DE do a crap job on him and make him meh, or bad? no. I wont budge from that until I hit a wall while using him that changes my mind otherwise. hell rebecca used him on stream yesturday and did pretty well.

[Shelusine]

35 minutes ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

I dont think thats really how it works. There are people in different fields or work, study, practice and time spent doesnt equate to "vastly knowing more." the more I use him the more I like him, even his 3. he is arguibly better than frames they have even reworked recently... a guy who spent everyday with him since he was out and thinks he is worse than what I am explaining I would and will entirely disagree with. Is he the "best frame" for what he does, probably not in all situations. But did DE do a crap job on him and make him meh, or bad? no. I wont budge from that until I hit a wall while using him that changes my mind otherwise. hell rebecca used him on stream yesturday and did pretty well.

The action of time spent wasn't the point here, the time ratio is. You just got the frame while others got it since release. Don't you think a person who studied 5 years has more chance to know vastly more than a person who studied 5 weeks ? If not you'll have to add arguments to your reasoning.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Shelusine

[Jabberwookie87]

Depends on the context of what it is... a warframe is rather simple, I have known welders that have welded for a year that are vastly better that ones that have done it for several years... most of what I have heard about him just doesnt fit even what little time I have used him.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Rev is trash. He’s literally just cast his two and pray the charges don’t go down before you kill everything with his 4. If it wasn’t for Steve coming in and giving him Danse Macabre he would be in a far worse place.

He lacks consistency, good synergy, he has contradictive powers (his 2 preventing the taken/dealt damage conversion from being used and he can’t tank without it). Don’t even get me started on Enthrall.

He’s a mess, his gun has more to do with an eidolons move set than he does. He should’ve been this awesome powerhouse but instead we got some weird vampire hybrid that nobody would’ve ever asked for.

And to give context. His best ability is now completely outclassed by blood queen “I can literally one shot anything” Garuda.

Edited December 21, 2018 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Jabberwookie87]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Rev is trash. He’s literally just cast his two and pray the charges don’t go down before you kill everything with his 4. If it wasn’t for Steve coming in and giving him Danse Macabre he would be in a far worse place.

He lacks consistency, good synergy, he has contradictive powers (his 2 preventing the taken/dealt damage conversion from being used and he can’t tank without it). Don’t even get me started on Enthrall.

He’s a mess, his gun has more to do with an eidolons move set than he does. He should’ve been this awesome powerhouse but instead we got some weird vampire hybrid that nobody would’ve ever asked for.

 

"lacks good synergy" I disagree... enthrall can pacify duders allowing you and the party to either kill them or draw fire, I find i works much better than nyx's three because with her 3 they will still shoot you, not to mention should be used differently. using augur, shield conversion and even adding a ehp mod makes him tanky as hell, three can refill his health if you take shield bypass damage and is a decent evade. only way I can see having an issue is if you are just face tanking bullets like inaros or taking mag damage... clear weakness... tanking with shield dont work like tanking with armor/health. get his mods right and comboed with the right weapons ect. I find him to be pretty decent. I see people are going to disagree regardless. we all play differently, whats effective for one my not be for another.. thematically I can understand the hang up where he had the vampire thing they they went more eidolony.. beyond that I still think people just wanted him to be a specific way.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

"lacks good synergy" I disagree... enthrall can pacify duders allowing you and the party to either kill them or draw fire, I find i works much better than nyx's three because with her 3 they will still shoot you, not to mention should be used differently. using augur, shield conversion and even adding a ehp mod makes him tanky as hell, three can refill his health if you take shield bypass damage and is a decent evade. only way I can see having an issue is if you are just face tanking bullets like inaros or taking mag damage... clear weakness... tanking with shield dont work like tanking with armor/health. get his mods right and comboed with the right weapons ect. I find him to be pretty decent. I see people are going to disagree regardless. we all play differently, whats effective for one my not be for another.. thematically I can understand the hang up where he had the vampire thing they they went more eidolony.. beyond that I still think people just wanted him to be a specific way.

They tied every single synergy to Enthrall. But what’s the point of them existing if they’re just gonna die immediately from team mates? You want to take a bombard out of the equation like Rev does you’re better off with nyx now since she can not only turn people to your side, but also buff their damage. 

Using shields for tanking? Have you ever considered stand up because that’s some grade A comedy material you got there.

Revs 4 has a gimmick where any damage he recieces he then deals out. But that gimmick is useless if Mesmer prevents constant damage and without it you can’t face tank and soak up a bunch of damage. Which begs the question of why is it there to begin with?

why did they keep Enthrall in and try to add all these useless features to it if Enthralls biggest problem (they die) prevents them from being used. Sure they can recharge Mesmer, but what good is that if they continue to move around preventing you from ever hitting them or what if they’re deal (which they usually are). And you can try to argue the CC part of them, but you’re relying on AI aggro manipulation and we know from previous abilities that have tried this they it can and will fail you.

Mesmer, while good on paper doesn’t translate well in game due to how many times the Warframe actually takes damage big or small. It has far too little charges to be deemed a practical tank ability.

Reave....I mean it functions but it’s boring to use. It’s like if tidal surge met Cloudwalker.

Danse Macabre is his only good ability. It’s a top tier DPS that they had to nerf with its energy cost because people were using that instead of the rest of his kit because the rest of his kit is trash. This ability saved rev from being Wukong or Vauban levels of trash. But that doesn’t justify the rest of his kit.

Edit: Forgot to mention that even Enthralls damage pillars are useless since they added that they blow up from contact with Danse, they ability we’ve just established that if you’re not using as Rev you’re playing him wrong.

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[JohnLemon123]

5 hours ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

Depends on the context of what it is... a warframe is rather simple, I have known welders that have welded for a year that are vastly better that ones that have done it for several years... most of what I have heard about him just doesnt fit even what little time I have used him.

I don't mean to sound like a pedantic person, i really don't, but this simply isn't true. Fact of the matter is, people who've seen a warframe evolve (from whatever state they were in when released to what they are now) tend to have a broader understanding of what they should and shouldn't be doing. Again, i'll ask you to remember what eidolons are and what they do : they're big, tanky and flashy. From that, one would then have expected a DPS-tank hybrid (at least i know i did) that doles out massive area damage through eye-searing explosions, while shrugging off damage like it's nothing. And only half of his kit represents that, nevermind the fact that every. single. one of his profiles, be it the default ''arsenal'' description, the youtube profile, or the revenant collection make it sound like this guy is all about enthralling enemies to build an army.

And the confusion i spoke of earlier goes beyond just thematic harmony, but seeps into his gameplay as well : why have the ability to heal or generate overshields when you're invincible ? Why ''dash away to escape'' when you, again, are completely immune to all damage ? Why make thralls when they'll die in seconds, be it by your hand or that of your teammates ? None of it makes sense, none of it is coherent, and it results in his 4 being the only really good active ability (since 2 should always be on), meaning that it was the one most prone to being nerfed, which it was. Harshly.

And this isn't a case of ''you don't know how to play the frame'' either. Again, i don't mean to sound preachy, but i've played this warframe extensively ever since he came out. I have hundreds of hours in this game, and 20% of it was played using him, more than any other. But that's not because i enjoy the way he plays (i wouldn't be writing this otherwise). It's because i believe in what he could be, or at least could have been (well, that, and the fact that he looks really sick). I've used him in every single scenario, from regular bounties to 3 hour mot survival, and i can still say this with absolute confidence : this guy only has half a kit, and he deserves better. He's our only shot at getting a sentient warframe (excepting potential hunhow shenanigans), and his kit just doesn't reflect that.