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Jabberwookie87

Unpopular opinion- Revenant is actually good

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5 hours ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

Depends on the context of what it is... a warframe is rather simple, I have known welders that have welded for a year that are vastly better that ones that have done it for several years... most of what I have heard about him just doesnt fit even what little time I have used him.

I don't mean to sound like a pedantic person, i really don't, but this simply isn't true. Fact of the matter is, people who've seen a warframe evolve (from whatever state they were in when released to what they are now) tend to have a broader understanding of what they should and shouldn't be doing. Again, i'll ask you to remember what eidolons are and what they do : they're bigtanky and flashy. From that, one would then have expected a DPS-tank hybrid (at least i know i did) that doles out massive area damage through eye-searing explosions, while shrugging off damage like it's nothing. And only half of his kit represents that, nevermind the fact that every. single. one of his profiles, be it the default ''arsenal'' description, the youtube profile, or the revenant collection make it sound like this guy is all about enthralling enemies to build an army.

And the confusion i spoke of earlier goes beyond just thematic harmony, but seeps into his gameplay as well : why have the ability to heal or generate overshields when you're invincible ? Why ''dash away to escape'' when you, again, are completely immune to all damage ? Why make thralls when they'll die in seconds, be it by your hand or that of your teammates ? None of it makes sense, none of it is coherent, and it results in his 4 being the only really good active ability (since 2 should always be on), meaning that it was the one most prone to being nerfed, which it was. Harshly.

And this isn't a case of ''you don't know how to play the frame'' either. Again, i don't mean to sound preachy, but i've played this warframe extensively ever since he came out. I have hundreds of hours in this game, and 20% of it was played using him, more than any other. But that's not because i enjoy the way he plays (i wouldn't be writing this otherwise). It's because i believe in what he could be, or at least could have been (well, that, and the fact that he looks really sick). I've used him in every single scenario, from regular bounties to 3 hour mot survival, and i can still say this with absolute confidence : this guy only has half a kit, and he deserves better. He's our only shot at getting a sentient warframe (excepting potential hunhow shenanigans), and his kit just doesn't reflect that.

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I get what you're saying and I do agree partly. Revenant is a okay frame and if build a certain way he can be very durable! But I have to disagree with what you're saying about his Synergies. I also found your replies to Gears, JohnLemon, and Shelusine quite interesting! 

5 hours ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

I see people comparing him to nyx and that his 4 is like mirages 4 but.. his 4 will bolster his shields.. the idea is when the thralls group up on you... you pop it, kill them, boost your shields.. the fonts cc and shoot stuffs.. 

This isn't really a great (or even good) synergy for a number of reasons: using his 4 on a group of Thralls yes will yield drops that will boost shields but only by a flat increase of 50 and unless I'm totally mistaken, you can't pick up multiple ones sadly! (I believe this is true also if you pick up a Shield orb and it goes into Overshields) 

Also his pillars detonate when hit with his 4s beam, making them completely useless at that point. 

5 hours ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

 his 1 in my opinion is 1000 times more usful than nyx... it completely pacifies them(toward allies), they infect others and draw aggro, can leech the shields and damage them... making it awesome on big baddies. 

Ehh... I think it's down to preference here: I'd rather take a single minion who's damage I can amplify, rather than a group of Thralls who die too quickly to be of major use. (in my opinion)

Yes they draw Aggro and can keep itself somewhat populated but I think how they are done actually causes more problems than help. 

"They infect others" Yes but that infection only lasts as long as the first Thralls duration, See when you convert a single Thrall, then that Thrall infects another, they would only last as long as the first Thralls remaining duration. Meaning any chain of Thralls that was made from a single Thrall would all expire at the same time. 

Drawing Aggro is actually what I would consider a problem given how quickly Thralls get killed... Since Rev's Enthrall only converts a single Thrall and draw aggro near instantly. 

10 hours ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

 my only complaint is 3 but it heals him and allows him to pass through duders if you are cornered so.. 

True but that really depends on what you hit with Reave. Thralls? Sure you can get some really strong restores! But on normal enemies (Unenthralled ones) It's around 8% but really how long do you think Thralls will be around to get that kind of usage? it's far too situational. 

I personally think Revenant is pretty fun and really that's the most important! But man he needs some more work and just some consistency. 

 

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well improvments I cant argue with :) its interesting to see everyones opinions.. I think I find him more useful that alot of others... maybe I am a strange player.. lol. now thematical improvments Id say is something id agree with.

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I do agree that Revenant is a pretty powerful piece in your arsenal, but like many have said, his kit does need a bit of focus. The vampire act should have been dropped early on when they decided he wasn't going to be named Vlad anymore. They should have tweaked his abilities to better coincide with what the Eidolons on the plains are capable of doing. A good example of what I feel could be a replacement for Enthrall would be to summon vomvalysts to restore the team's shields and grant overshields and health. Maybe one vomvalyst for each player in the squad. Mesmer Skin could probably be swapped over to being an overshield instead of damage nullification (Iron Skin 3.0) or even something related to damage increases for the squad or even just Rev. I rarely ever use Reave, tbh. It's so pointless when your squad kills every thrall you've managed to make not even 2 seconds into making them, and the Mesmer Skin passed onto teammates is only a single charge. So that's pretty pointless to do.

All in all, yes. Revenant is fun, but he is quite thematically a mess. He's not the vampire he was originally advertised as, and that's ok. Things are allowed to change as time develops them, but I do agree with others that this theme was held too closely to people's hearts and it hindered his overall kit rather than helped it.

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35 minutes ago, Kromatia said:

I do agree that Revenant is a pretty powerful piece in your arsenal, but like many have said, his kit does need a bit of focus. The vampire act should have been dropped early on when they decided he wasn't going to be named Vlad anymore. They should have tweaked his abilities to better coincide with what the Eidolons on the plains are capable of doing. A good example of what I feel could be a replacement for Enthrall would be to summon vomvalysts to restore the team's shields and grant overshields and health. Maybe one vomvalyst for each player in the squad. Mesmer Skin could probably be swapped over to being an overshield instead of damage nullification (Iron Skin 3.0) or even something related to damage increases for the squad or even just Rev. I rarely ever use Reave, tbh. It's so pointless when your squad kills every thrall you've managed to make not even 2 seconds into making them, and the Mesmer Skin passed onto teammates is only a single charge. So that's pretty pointless to do.

All in all, yes. Revenant is fun, but he is quite thematically a mess. He's not the vampire he was originally advertised as, and that's ok. Things are allowed to change as time develops them, but I do agree with others that this theme was held too closely to people's hearts and it hindered his overall kit rather than helped it.

yeah I agree... I have been using his 3 alot more now but over all its still kinda meh... useful in my opinion in certain situations but not a power to rely on, or you just cant at all.. I agree with the thematical part... I get it, people were disappointed... but very very much disagree he is mastery trash.. they are just mad how he turned out... which I understand.

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29 minutes ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

yeah I agree... I have been using his 3 alot more now but over all its still kinda meh... useful in my opinion in certain situations but not a power to rely on, or you just cant at all.. I agree with the thematical part... I get it, people were disappointed... but very very much disagree he is mastery trash.. they are just mad how he turned out... which I understand.

I totally agree that he is worth keeping. Definitely not mastery fodder imo. He just needs some reevaluation to his kit to bring his theme into focus.

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I agree that he is mostly fine.
My few issues with Revenant are the forced synergies with Enthrall, damage pillars? allies kill them all the time so the reave leech is hardly ever amplified and all other things everyone has already complained about. I still use Enthrall to just keep enemies in that corner of the map nobody cares about busy, it really works well for that.

Mesmer skin is actually underrated... 1 instance block per charge but the fact it staggers whichever enemy hit you means that enemies are gonna be CC'd for quite a bit

Reave... well naturally boring and unsteerable but still handy

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The problem you're experiencing is you believe people calling him trash means they're calling him unusable.  That's not what's being said.  Any frame can do any piece of content because no content out there demands the most optimal setup to work.  Rev is bad because of several reasons:

~There is no point to making thralls.  Allies kill them immediately.  Meaning they can't offer any decent distraction or damage to enemies because they're dead.  You get nothing of value for them being dead.  As reave doesn't actually give any actual worthwhile survivability back unless the enemy is thralled.  The overshield they can drop is a hilariously small amount of over shields.  The pillars of fire do poor damage and the status proc they give is a stumble.  Not super useful.  Good luck having an enemy even walk over the pillars in the first place.  And them being alive doesn't net you anything of value either.  As they do poor damage and can't soak damage for you.  Reaving them is pointless anyway because with mesmer skin you won't take damage.  Finally he can only create one thrall at a time.  When there are a LOT of frames that can aoe kill that's a bad thing.  He can't keep up in pacing.  Summary?  His main gameplay loop is about thralls.  And it sucks.

~Mesmerskin makes his passive and reave redundant.  Reave has no use outside of being a cheaper mobility option in your danse.

~Reave is useless outside the 4.  Giving people a single charge of your mesmer skin is laughably useless.

I don't typically argue the whole "why would I take x frame" argument because it's usually born from a place of being optimal.  But in this case I have to ask the question.  Because there are PLENTY of other frames out there that can be just as tanky either directly or indirectly.  And plenty of frames that can do his damage or better at probably less energy cost.  And plenty of them are easier to obtain than him.

Here is my list of suggested changes I made in Rev's megathread:

"Thrall count increased to 10 enemies.

~Thralls are untargetable by allies until Revenant has interacted with them in some way or 20 seconds has passed.  (time is non moddable for this)

~Rad procs are ignored on thralls.

~Energy pillar damage and projectile damage changed to radiation.  Base range increased to 5 meters.

~Mesmer skin now provides Revenant with a movement speed/bullet jump speed increase.  Mesmer skin no longer nullifies damage.  Merely reduces the damage up to 80%.  Mesmer skin can shirk lethal damage once every 90 seconds.  Mesmer skin is now a duration based ability.  Mesmer skin while active ignores status procs.  Mesmer skin's synergy of creating thralls for free has been moved.

~Reave now takes increased health/shields from enemies.  This is no longer effected by reaving over thralls.  If you reave over a thrall you refresh their duration and get refunded energy to help with reave's energy cost.  If you have mesmer skin active and reave an enemy you convert the enemy(s) into thralls if you have less than 10 thralls on the field.  Passing over allies with mesmer skin and reave active allows them to ignore the next status proc they would take.

~Danse macabre when it kills enthralled enemies pulses a sentient wave of energy that begins health regeneration and shield regeneration for allies in the AoE.

~Enthrall.  Revenant can hold to cast to create an AoE where he can create multiple thralls at once.

~Passive remains the same."

Suggested changes make thralls actually useful, give him actually useful synergies in his kit, and overall make him feel better to play.  So yeah.  You can certainly use the frame.  He can certainly survive well and do decent damage.  That doesn't mean his kit is actually good.  I don't think you actually heard any good feedback on why people dislike him.  Because there is plenty constructive feedback on why people think his kit is awful.

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I have used him exclusively with my brother(who is a founder, so we arn't just finishing up our star chart) for several days now... like I said, someone can write a Phd thesis on how he sucks..and as of right now... I disagree.

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1 hour ago, Jabberwookie87 said:

I have used him exclusively with my brother(who is a founder, so we arn't just finishing up our star chart) for several days now... like I said, someone can write a Phd thesis on how he sucks..and as of right now... I disagree.

Try looking at the things I pointed out as flaws in the kit rather than "this is why his garbage."  Sometimes a perspective change helps.  As I said, he's perfectly capable of doing any piece of content like any other frame.  That alone doesn't mean a frame is well designed though.  At least, not in current warframe times.

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Funny who a lot of people say he's trash while I'm enjoying using him and became one of my favorite frame so far.


I've build him for Strength and Duration mainly for the pillars from his 1st ability. They got decent damage at low level/mid level with no armor enemies as well as nice staggering high level enemies and drawing enemy fires. 
His second ability is immortality, as long as it's active you cant die even from self-damage. I've got Phantasma riven and just spam alt-fire even under my feet.
His third ability is just good for killing enemies under the 1st ability while trying to refresh your second ability; It's a bit weird to have.
His 4th ability is just lazy brain killing machine which I rarely use. 

Few weeks ago when Fortuna update hit PS4, my net was so S#&$ty I couldn't play with others and was doing the highest bounty solo with Revenant. I've managed to defend all objective without letting them take much damage thanks to his 1st even under high gun fire from the enemies. I've played with Valkyr with Prolonged Paralysis build and some other warframes, it was harder to maintain everything under control.

So yea, Revenant is good for me. Players just go to Simulacrum and fight +100 enemies and if they die without doing much they call them trash; that's not always true.
 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Yuki5e7en said:

Players just go to Simulacrum and fight +100 enemies and if they die without doing much they call them trash

... way to ruin your post with a needless, insulting generalization of people who disagree with you.

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1 hour ago, NinjaZeku said:

... way to ruin your post with a needless, insulting generalization of people who disagree with you.

I didn't insult anyone here, all what I've said is that players just tried and judge stuff by using level +100 enemies in Simulacrum. 
Most of warframe contents are level 70 and lower (Relics, hydron, cetus/vallis bounties) + some players got different play style.


Sorry if anyone felt insulted by that comment ...

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I can hardly find revenant useful in any game content.

Lets go in order:

The passive is unnoticable, barely serves any purpose.

 

The thralls have multiple problems. We have the obvious terrible enemy AI and the scaling is what makes thralls barely useable as a defensive/offensive skill. Radiation damage nullfies this skill.

We are left with the pillars of death what are pretty much random where they appear but aleast the damage and cc is acceptable.

 

Mesmer skin. The reflected damage is useless but this is a nice defense skill. Cannot defend against object damage or status damage at all so slash and napalms will still kill you. Cc is limited but acceptable.

 

Reave. This is a dash skill nothing else. Unless you use the forced synergy this skill is useless and costs too much. Even with the synergy its a questionable skill.

 

Danse macabre. The power cost is absurd and this skill barely pulls its weight against anything but the grineer. In overall the player is better not using it unless absolutely necesseary.

 

 On the overall we have 1 skill out of 4 what is worth casting, effectively putting revenant to wukong levels of usability but honestly i would rather pick wukong over him.

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Whether or not Revenant is strong I don't think was ever that much in question since his post-launch buffs. He can make himself permanently immune to all damage, crowd control, and status on-demand, while also killing every enemy through walls and from across large distances just by pressing 4 and existing. Moreover, the damage on his 4 has multiple special mechanics to scale even harder, with adaptive damage that can shred enemy armor as needed, and a button to deal even more ridiculous amounts of damage. As such, in terms of pure power, Revenant is a strong frame that does all the essentials of what one would want in the game's current meta.

Whether or not Revenant is a well-designed frame, however, is another matter entirely, and I think is the main reason why he gets flak: the main criticism people give is that he's boring to play, and the strategy I mentioned above, i.e. press 2 when needed to become immune to everything, and press 4 just to auto-murder everyone in a radius, isn't particularly interactive. The rest of his abilities, on the other hand, don't really do much: his dash/vamp combo does very little outside of some very rare situations where Rev wants to quickly reposition with his 4, and his 1 does very little as well, despite being horrendously overloaded with mind control, a spread, situational free casts, overshield pickups on death, damaging pillars on death, and homing laser projectiles that shoot out of said pillars on death. His passive is equally bland, and anti-synergizes with his 2, which can be used to prevent his shields from dropping entirely. Overall, Revenant's identity is confused, and many if not most of his abilities generate very little interactive or engaging gameplay, with over half of his kit being made up of mechanics he has little real reason to use. He started out in development as a manipulative vampire frame, then turned midway through into an Eidolon frame after he got his 4, and received very little attention overall from developers who at the time had focused all of their resources on Fortuna. I think the results are clear, in that the end product was a half-baked, largely unoriginal, uninteresting and dysfunctional frame, whose only saving grace is that he got massively overbuffed after a rough release. Because of this, while I don't think Revenant needs to be made stronger or weaker, I do think he needs a rework so that he can become a full Eidolon frame, with the vampire spot going to a different kit who could do that niche justice.

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