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Baruuk's poor Damage scaling serves as Evidence of the need for an Enemy Armor/DR Cap


(PSN)Jedi_Arts_
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People have been talking a lot about how poorly Baruuk's Desert Wind scales against high level armor. I've been thinking about how to solve this in the context of his kit, but then I realized: Desert Wind itself is fine. It has really high damage/crit, so there's really no reason it should perform poorly. (Edit: Some people have pointed out that the ability is also struggling from being unable to use melee combo and a lot of Necessary Mods. This is true and also needs some fixing. However, this doesn't change how poorly this ability scales with Armor)

The true problem is with how poorly High-Crit/Low-Status weapons scale against Armor. Not every weapon should have to depend on rapid-stacking Corrosive procs, or Slash procs. The real reason that these status effects have been thought of "required" is because of the Multiplicative Scaling of Armor.

eHP of shielded enemies scales as a Separate Shield value + HP value. Meanwhile, for practical purposes, Armor scales as a Damage Reduction Modifier x HP value. The multiplication is really what breaks it. But that Multiplication would actually be fine if the Modifier capped off at a reasonable value. Only, it doesn't.

Soon DE is going to have to take a look at all of this feedback about Baruuk and figure out something to do about it. I'm saying that maybe it's time to finally do something about this Armor problem that has been put off all this time. I understand that there is probably a lot of testing that would need to be done to alter this core mechanical scheme of Warframe. But I don't think that the search to find a reasonable DR cap for Armor would really take as long some people make it seem.

There is the issue of Armor DR for Warframes in the event of an Armor cap. Depending on where the Cap would be set, it could make Armor much less useful to players trying to Mod for it. I think it is reasonable for a cap to apply differently to Warframes (or just not apply at all). I think an exception could be made based on the fact that the scaling of Enemies works so differently than our Warframe Modding system. 

I'm not really here to give a recommendation of where the Cap should be set. I'm just saying it should be set, eventually. And I think a Cap is probably the quickest and most practical way to do it. I would really encourage the community and DE to push for a fix to Armor. Otherwise, I think we're just going to keep having problems with Warframes/Weapons like Baruuk & Desert Wind.

p.s. I know I'm probably the Millionth person to ask for the Armor rework. But when you look at how hard they worked on Baruuk only for his coolest ability to perform with mediocre Damage, I think that helps shine a light on the situation.

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_
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17 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

DE: We're releasing a pacifist Warframe who's better at circumventing conflict than he is at killing.

Baruuk: *doesn't deal much damage in some situations*

Players: [surprised_pikachu.jpg]

We were told his Exalted fists would be an “all-out offense” ability. So excuse us if we were surprise that they do less damage than a feather duster.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

We were told his Exalted fists would be an “all-out offense” ability. So excuse us if we were surprise that they do less damage than a feather duster.

The real problem is that it lacks any combo counter at all, even on direct hits, so you cant use the Gladiator mods bonus on other gear or weeping wounds.

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

We were told his Exalted fists would be an “all-out offense” ability. So excuse us if we were surprise that they do less damage than a feather duster.

"All-out-offense" means it's aggressive, which Desert Wind is. It doesn't mean it has to be high-damage in all situations. Warframes will have strengths, weaknesses and niches. If you want a frame whose abilities deal with Armor, play others for that purpose and accept that some, like Baruuk, can't do that. Different tools for different jobs. Desert Wind is still very strong against any targets without giant piles of Armor, and then when you have those tougher enemies just Lull them and use Finishers. Easy.

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3 hours ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

The real problem is that it lacks any combo counter at all, even on direct hits, so you cant use the Gladiator mods bonus on other gear or weeping wounds.

My point is more about the Armor scaling problem itself. All that stuff you mentioned definitely contributes to how poorly Desert Wind is performing. But even if it got combo, I don't think it would make his 4 Competitive with regular melee weapons. The Armor is very overwhelming for Crit-only weapons. Overall, I think that Armor just needs solving for the greater purpose of Non-status based weapons across the game.

Also I don't think any Exalted Weapons can use Weeping Wounds anyway. I don't agree with it being that way, but that's just the precedent.

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_
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18 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

"All-out-offense" means it's aggressive, which Desert Wind is. It doesn't mean it has to be high-damage in all situations. Warframes will have strengths, weaknesses and niches. If you want a frame whose abilities deal with Armor, play others for that purpose and accept that some, like Baruuk, can't do that. Different tools for different jobs. Desert Wind is still very strong against any targets without giant piles of Armor, and then when you have those tougher enemies just Lull them and use Finishers. Easy.

I just got done arguing this topic with two other people. I’m not doing this again. So I’m gonna give you the clip notes version, you’re gonna agree with me, and we’ll call it a night.

If Serene storm wasn’t meant to be a high damage exalted weapon then what was the point of locking its use behind the restraint meter? It’s by far the worst exalted weapon and it’s Baruuks worst option in terms of Crowd control since Lull is a skill. If it was meant to be designed this way then it’s flat out laughable that DE thought to have this big build up to an ability that’s not worth using. No, DE is smarter than that. They tried to give us a high damage exalted weapon but someone clearly forgot impact and low status doesn’t do jack against high level armor. Honestly, it’s either that or they should take the restraint mechanic off of Serene storm. Because it’s not worthy of being tied to a unique mechanic.

Edited by (XB1)GearsMatrix301
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39 minutes ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

The real problem is that it lacks any combo counter at all, even on direct hits, so you cant use the Gladiator mods bonus on other gear or weeping wounds.

Direct hits do build combo, they have the range of other fist weapons which means if you arent in the face of the enemy (or unless the enemy has cc immunity at the time) the wave will hit before the physical strikes. Same way how some people think baruuk cant use finishers because they think a attack from 4m on a sub 1m melee should cause a finisher.

A simple and not breaking way to change baruuk for those dunces that insist on using his CC fists for damage is to make the otherwise meh sleep unique in both having a windup, but also not being broken by non "melee" attack (as in lasts the full duration unless the target is hit with a attack that builds melee combo meter), thus waves would benefit from the stealth modifier at higher levels just how Excals do via blind (crit would probably be nerfed to 10% then too tho).

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38 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:



A simple and not breaking way to change baruuk for those dunces that insist on using his CC fists for damage

Whoa dude. I have gotten angry at some people who were very insistent on Baruuks 4 being CC and not damage (it should be damage otherwise the whole build up with his restraint is just a bad joke). But I have yet to call any of them names. Show some respect FFS.

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41 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Whoa dude. I have gotten angry at some people who were very insistent on Baruuks 4 being CC and not damage (it should be damage otherwise the whole build up with his restraint is just a bad joke). But I have yet to call any of them names. Show some respect FFS.

You have seen him talk on DeMonkey's Baruuk thread. You shouldn't expect a known troll to behave differently.

Anyone arguing that Baruuk's 4 is a CC ability probably needs to realize Baruuk already has 2 CCs that are better and do not use up the restraint counter. He has a sleep and a disarm. Giving him a ragdoll behind a fancy mechanic serves no purpose other than make the 4 not even worth the time.

I do play Baruuk with just 1, 2 and 3 so it is not an issue for me, but it makes the 4 not even worth building for. In that case, why even put that ability there in the first place? I would be happier with a hard CC like limbo's freeze or excal's blind in that case ... and such would be more useful.

There is no such thing as a CC exalted weapon. A weapon is meant to kill/injure people. Shooting a guy in the leg RL is not crowd control, it is maiming someone.

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People have been complaining about armor scaling for years. Heck, armor scaling was even a huge issue before damage 2.0 too. 
But seeing as it's been this long and DE hasn't done anything about it, I'd imagine they don't see it as an issue. 

What are the armor values like on Eidolons and Profit-Taker-chan? In the case of Eidolons and Profit-Taker(supposed end-game content) where statuses don't apply, people are still able to one-shot their limbs with crit weapons.  😛

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I haven't played Baruuk yet but i know how Armor Scaling is in this Game. Having 98 - 99% DR at levels near 200 or 300 is where Corrosive, Slash, or just finisher damage can keep you going with the killing. Garuda, Saryn, Ash, Excalibur, Oberon, those Frames can ignore Armor or strip it while Frames like Volt have a harder time dealing with the DR unless he's using his Weapons through his Shield. Shielded enemies dosen't matter normally because 1. Shields can get bypassed and 2. Armored enemies have i guess 8 - 20x as much EHP (like Corrupted Heavy Gunners or Napalms). The amount of Tankiness is the biggest reason why testing out stuff against Armor is more important than testing against Shields since Shields are paper. Even in the Enhanced Enemy Shield Sorties, it takes a Slash Weapon to keep killing the enemies. 

The Survivability balance difference between high level Corpus and Grineer is the difference of a wall made out of Wood and Bricks.

Edited by GPrime96
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10 hours ago, NeopetsMaster4432 said:

People have been complaining about armor scaling for years. Heck, armor scaling was even a huge issue before damage 2.0 too. 
But seeing as it's been this long and DE hasn't done anything about it, I'd imagine they don't see it as an issue. 

Yeah. It's kind of like I was saying at the end of my first post. I know that asking for an Armor fix has been a thing for years. But I guess I'm trying to apply it to this new situation to show how much they are disadvantaging themselves by leaving this way. It just makes it harder to design Warframes & Weapons. Because now they are going to have to deal with Desert Wind by

1) Giving it some sort of Armor-Cheat method like a lot of Warframes have received because of the same problem. Or

2) Just leaving it like this, terrible, and then hope the people forget. Obviously not ideal, but certainly not unprecedented for them to do (like Armor itself, for example).

Maybe if they keep releasing similar content to really meh feedback, they'll begin to realize that Armor is indeed an issue and it's to their own benefit to fix it. It applies to this situation, and to future content they try to release.

And on a side note, the fact that the ability just can't access most of the useful melee mechanics/mods isn't helping it either. But none of that would truly save it from Armor without some status.

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_
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6 hours ago, GPrime96 said:

Garuda, Saryn, Ash, Excalibur, Oberon, those Frames can ignore Armor or strip it while Frames like Volt have a harder time dealing with the DR unless he's using his Weapons through his Shield. Shielded enemies dosen't matter normally

Even in the Enhanced Enemy Shield Sorties, it takes a Slash Weapon to keep killing the enemies. 

Yeah I totally agree about how it's not really right how some of this stuff is so much better against Armor than the rest. It skews the use-cases of damage abilities and certain weapons. Not everything should need slash or armor stripping to work effectively. That promotes the opposite of build versatility and diversity. They are just disadvantaging themselves in their creative-options by allowing that to fester.

I'd like to see a Cap because that would cut off the Multiplicative Scaling at a certain point, and then allow it to scale more linearly from there based on the Health. I think that would allow Baruuk to actually deal some damage through Armor, at least in the level 100-150 range. Though he would need some other fixes too, like being able to use essential melee mods/combo, etc.

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_
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Honestly, Baruuk is fine as he is. Take Atlas for example. He can totally squash level 130+ enemies in one, maybe two hits with his 1 as long as they ain't grineer. Good luck trying to kill any high level Grineer with that ability though. And I do know that I am comparing Baruuk's 4 with Atlas 1, however Atlas has like no other useful abilities if you mod him for his 1 because that will reduce your duration so much that 4 simply isnt worth using because it lasts like a grand total of 3 seconds. And his 3 wind up animation will get you killed at higher level contents so yeah.

Not every frame is supposed to go up against high level grineer and cut them down with ease. Not every weapon is supposed to do that. This game is kinda balanced in a rock-paper-scissors way where you have some equipment/frames which is really good for doing one thing and really bad for doing something else. But asking them to reduce armor or to give Baruuk a way to cheat through that armor whilst he already has other useful abilities is not really the way to go, at least in my opinion. Making a frame excel at everything is just not that great... He already has: evade attacks (i know it is just if you dont attack however it still is a huge for you to survive stuff), huge aoe CC with lull (we are talking about 25m radius at max rank without range mods) and on top of that he gains dmg reduction with his 2 that a) scales with power strength; both increasing the number of daggers u summon and the damage reduction you get per dagger up to a cap of 90%, they also destroy enemie weapons making it useful everywhere and you can give the dmg reduction and the ability to destroy nearby enemies weapons to teammates aswell. Oh and keep in mind that his 4 doesnt need energy so you dont even care about energy leeches at all for his 4 which usually is the biggest problem for any exalted weapon or damaging ability that you use. Now you want him to be able to nuke all kinds of content aswell? There is just so much power u can give a warframe without taking it to the point where people start complaining that said warframe is just way too strong and calling for nerfs. Also, the game content is already easy enough as it is, arbitrations are also not difficult to do, why do you want to make the content even easier? Even an eximus stronghold sortie extermination is done extremely fast even if it is like the last one you have to do at lvl 100. Or an extermination with enemy physical enhancement at lvl 100. They just get completely destroyed already. Sure you might need different tools than baruuk's 4 but it is still easy as heck to do. By reducing the armor scaling of grineer you are pretty much just making easy content even easier. Also if armor annoys you that much there are ways to counter it. If you want to nuke lvl 100+ grineer then use a squad with 4x corrosive projection and those heavily armored immortal grineer will turn into paper and u can still nuke them down with Baruuk's 4. No need to nerf anything, there are ways to play around everything and make crit weapons viable at higher levels aswell.

Edited by Nr137
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I completely agree with the OP, and as mentioned there too, the core problem comes back to how the game scales its difficulty. Right now, the core problem with many, many mechanics in the game is that they eventually feel weak against enemies that turn into one-shotting bullet-sponges at high levels. Problem is, enemies currently have to turn into these monsters because this is the way the game so far has chosen to implement difficulty scaling. Without scaling enemies, the game would have no way of making itself more difficult, which means it would become utterly incapable of presenting any content that would challenge a veteran player even if it wanted to. Because of this sort of framing, the game's design has been constantly at odds with itself, since it has been incapable of implementing difficulty without making players feel weak, and whenever it's made players feel strong, it's only done so by making the game itself feel trivial.

However, to me this shouldn't be a reason to simply avoid rebalancing frames or addressing enemy scaling; rather, to me this simply means we need a paradigm shift in how the game handles difficulty: because the central fantasy involves players feeling immensely powerful, easily more powerful than nearly all of the opponents they face, the game should not implement its difficulty by making all enemies stronger than the player, because that runs counter to the game's core fantasy (though it would be better if damage and durability values were adjusted to prevent players from eventually one-shotting virtually every any enemy in their path with most weapons). Rather, the game needs to find other ways of introducing a challenge, which should truly test the player's skills, rather than their power, for them to succeed. Personally, I think the way to go about this should be via mission conditions: if enemies gained more points in Interception and could cap faster, up to the point where they could cap instantaneously upon reaching a console, the mode could reach a point where it would eventually be almost impossible to carry on, even if the enemies themselves didn't increase in stats (unless players could simply auto-clear the room of enemies 24/7 with little to no effort, which can be the case with the game's current balance). Similarly, if the life support went down faster in Survival, or if life support towers took longer and longer to spawn, or if drops brought less and less life support, that mode too would become more difficult to the point of near-impossibility, without needing to scale enemies (this is already what's sort of implemented in Sanctuary Onslaught with efficiency drain, though enemies still gain levels). These are but a few examples, but more generally the game has plenty of inbuilt parameters to most of its missions that could be scaled to increase difficulty, without having to touch enemy stats each time.

Back to the main topic, I also directly agree that armor scaling in particular needs to change, because it's currently in this extremely binary situation where either players do have Corrosive Projection, and can therefore eliminate armor scaling (which happens fairly often), or they don't, and armored enemies turn into bullet sponges far quicker than any other. Problem is, this is also the only way for the Grineer faction to rapidly scale in difficulty, particularly since the Corpus have Nullifiers and the Infested have excessive amounts of energy-draining Eximus units. None of those are particularly good mechanics, but they at least have a commonality in that they act as a restriction to players' abilities, which are almost always broken enough to let them dominate even hours into an endless mission: past a certain point, players cannot target enemies (the Corpus), cannot cast abilities (the Infested), or cannot meaningfully damage enemies with abilities (the Grineer). Making armor static would therefore raise the question of how the Grineer would be made difficult in later missions. Technically, the faction also has an excessive number of bleed procs attached to hitscan weaponry, but that in itself can be negated with healing and many forms of damage mitigation, which have become increasingly common. In an ideal state of the game, this discussion shouldn't have to happen, but pending a massive rework of enemy scaling, scaling difficulty, and player power, if we're to make armor a static value per enemy level, we'd have to either tweak some other part of the Grineer in compensation, or simply contend with all armored enemies becoming much less difficult at higher levels.

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I do agree concerning the problem with the scaling of the game's difficulty. It would definitely better if they found a way to make it more challenging without destroying the power fantasy. However, if you do the changes you suggest for survival, endurance runners would start complaining and I can also totally understand that... They want to try and see how far they can go, how strong the enemies can be that they can take on. And how would you fix  the endless runs in defense missions that way? More enemies dont matter because you are just gonna nuke them down as u do normally if you dont make them scale. I don not think it is a good idea to make it impossible for players to run content past a certain level/time because of some artificial border that you draw. Also, it would literally make the entire point of frames like nidus useless since you wont ever need a frame that can get as tanky as nidus. All you would need would be a dps frame and you are good to go.

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I think we're digressing a bit. Lets simplify this. Everyone basically knows that Armor scaling uses a busted formula that doesn't Cap off its Multiplicative scaling. This creates a problem for almost any time DE tries to create DPS abilities. Let's just push to get that fixed for now. We don't really need to overhaul anything to get that done. In terms of difficulty, the game is struggling from a main Starchart that fails to provide engaging gameplay because it's incredibly under-leveled for the power level that the game has progressed to. I do believe that DE wants to continue the trend of Arbitration and ESO by making some decent enemy levels available for veteran players. But it's going to be harder for certain damage abilities to remain competitive in that kind of game environment if the game continues to use broken Armor scaling.

Edited by (PS4)Jedi_Arts_
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There definitely should be a cap on the amount of armor enemies can get up to.

The cap should probably be the amount of armor enemies have around level 75, or slightly below sortie level, since past sortie levels is when armor scaling starts to really become a huge issue.

I don't think having a cap on armor would affect warframes at all tbh, remember that the most armor possible on a frame would only be in the thousands, but enemies have tens of thousands to millions of armor depending on their level.

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If you start capping the armor slightly below sortie level though the enemies will always get one or two-shot. And let us be honest here, the only time armor scaling really starts becoming an issue is when you spend like hours in mot or any high level grineer environment. We already are strong as hell in the game; the only reason why ESO can be challenging is because of the timer you need to beat, the enemies themselfs are not a problem at all. If you cap the enemy armor at like lets even say lvl 100ish they are still going to die in a couple of rounds. And there always are possibilities to get around the extremely high armor that enemies have. It is not like "oh no, it is impossible to do anything against that". As I said you can always take on corrosive projection, you can use high status aoe weapons to strip their armor with corrosive procs, you can use mag for that, if you want to go super cheese you can go covert lethality dagger with ash or any invis frame, there is a lot of counterplay possible. I myself actually enjoy the armor scaling because I need to adapt my weapons and frame loadout according to the mission and I can't just go in and oneshot everything until level 200 or 300+ with any weapon or frame that i want. It is the only challenging aspect in the entire game that can require proper modding and it might even be a lot easier if you pick a certain frame for the mission. If you cap enemy armor at a certain point you take away like the only way to get challenging content for the game even though it requires you to stay hours in some survival missions. Frames and weapons are there for a reason, some are suited better to do certain missions with than other frames. If you could continue to nuke everything that lives up to like level 200, 300+ you would probably only see saryns camping in a corner mashing their 4 with arcane energize on. Or maybe volts mashing 4. And as I said, frames specialize in different things. If the armor bothers u that much because you cannot nuke the entire map anymore instantly then just form a squad so that you can do it. In Bere for instance you had one dps, one buffer, one ev and a leech. If armor bothers you that much then 1) equip 4 cp's or 2) just take a mag as flex-slot instead of the leech/speednova. There are ways to play around that issue but please do not take away armor scaling because some of us actually enjoy having to take that into consideration and do not want to simply gun down a lvl 150 enemy by pulling the trigger on a rifle (not shotgun) twice because the armor scaling gets capped. The game offers enough counterplay to armor scaling already, you might need to give up a modslot for that or maybe have to bring a certain comp or a certain weapon. But it definitely is doable. And maybe it just should not be the case that you can nuke down lvl 150 enemies. Even im arbitrations the enemies are not even challenging.

Also, do not forget that you have ways to turn your warframe immortal aswell. Adaptation, Parasitic Link, Shatter Shield, Defy, Splinter Storm, Bless,... there is a lot of stuff in the game that allows you to facetank level 130+ eximus units without even flinching.

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Le 22/12/2018 à 08:53, Datam4ss a dit :

There is no such thing as a CC exalted weapon.

Now it is.

I don't think that Baruuk has been designed to compete with other exalted weapons users anyway, isn't he supposed to finish sleeping tough enemies instead of stupidly beating them for decades ?

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2 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Now it is.

I don't think that Baruuk has been designed to compete with other exalted weapons users anyway, isn't he supposed to finish sleeping tough enemies instead of stupidly beating them for decades ?

You ignored the rest of the post.

If DE wants to put a useless filler skill that serves no purpose whatsoever, I guess they can, because his 4 is definitely trash as either CC or damage. When he has 2 hard CC options that don't cost a special resource, using those is probably the smarter choice.

Also, you'd be faster using a standard sword/dagger for finishing sleeping enemies. More damage too.

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