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Can we stop nerfing non game breaking things?


birdobash
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I remember a few instances where either the community, DE, or both mutually decided to nerf certain things that didn't need nerfing at all. There are things ofc that obviously may be overpowered, but some of these things just outright ask the question, why?

One example is Mesa peacemaker and acolyte mods, you used to be able to slot pistol acolyte mods into her peacemakers. It didn't do too much more for her as she still kicked ass without it, but it created a small group of the community to create a new way to use peacemaker, such as throwing argon scope on them, and making a quick draw build where you would bullet jump straight up, then fire downwards with regulators to trigger the mod, sheathing the guns when you landed.

On the contrary there are things that obviously should be nerfed and were, (staticor 8 meter range) because they were killing everything on the map, but I don't understand some of these smaller nerfs that just seem to be nerfs pushed for the sake of nerfing.

Thoughts?

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5 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

No, balancing entails buffs, reworks and nerfs. Get used to it.

So far the only buffs are pretty garbage if you ask me, and the ones that aren't garbage seem to get nerfed REALLY fast a few weeks or month later. Using the same example with the staticor, it used to be pretty bad, then they gave it some big buffs, and it seems like now it's basically back to it's original form.

Plus I'm not saying don't change the game with balancing, its obvious that balancing is integrational to all video games including warframe. It's just that it seems like some parts of the community and maybe parts of DE influence a lot of uncalled for nerfs.

Edited by birdobash
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1 minute ago, birdobash said:

So far the only buffs are pretty garbage if you ask me, and the ones that aren't garbage seem to get nerfed REALLY fast a few weeks or month later. Using the same example with the staticor, it used to be pretty bad, then they gave it some big buffs, and it seems like now it's basically back to it's original form.

It's easier to give out small buffs that lead to X getting to it's sweet spot, than to buff and nerf X count less times to get to the exact same spot.

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2 minutes ago, birdobash said:

So far the only buffs are pretty garbage if you ask me, and the ones that aren't garbage seem to get nerfed REALLY fast a few weeks or month later. Using the same example with the staticor, it used to be pretty bad, then they gave it some big buffs, and it seems like now it's basically back to it's original form.

if you don't use the stuff that was buffed, then you wouldn't know if it's an improvement or not, if you don't like a certain item then no buff will change that...plus, 'garbage' is subjective 

Also, if you really think the staticor is the same as it was before then you really have no idea what you're talking about, it's balanced and fun to play now

 

 

16 minutes ago, birdobash said:

It didn't do too much more for her as she still kicked ass without it

then why the thread? she's still powerful without it, and it's consistent with the other exalted weapon, plus this 'new' way is just jumping high...there's nothing new about it

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8 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

then why the thread? she's still powerful without it, and it's consistent with the other exalted weapon, plus this 'new' way is just jumping high...there's nothing new about it

EXACTLY! I glad you agree with me! If shes powerful without it, and it's just a different playstyle, why did DE decide to waste working time they couldve spent someplace else on something unnecessary? Ths only thing they basically did was destroy a branch of diversity with the nerf.

And the part about "jumping high" having nothing new about it, you wouldn't have understood if you hadn't used it. Just like you said, you don't notice buffs or nerfs if you don't use a certain item/playstyle.

To help make sense of what this playstyle really was, it made mesa feel less like a turret which murderized everything in her LOS, and it deletes her one downside of peacemaker being the LOS disadvantage by jumping straight up to have a better vantage point. Since argon scope would 90% trigger off a head because you were vertical to the enemy (normally peacemaker cannot headshot on ground level) you were able to kill quick enough that you would finish before you landed. BUT the tradeoff was you don't nuke the entire room, you only decimate completely the part of the screen you can see when you do the jump looking straight down. A stronger nuke in a smaller area.

Edited by birdobash
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Define "non-game-breaking."

Also, Acolyte mods were never, ever intended to work with Exalted Weapons, because most Exalted Weapons would be broken if they did. Most of these were nipped right in the bud, which is why Blood Rush Hysteria was never a thing, but I suppose non-melee EWs slipped through the cracks.

If being able to put Bladed Rounds or whatever on the Regulators was as inconsequential as you are attempting to paint it, then you lose nothing from the blanket restriction because the build was already pointless. If it was actually worth putting on due to imparting significant advantage, then that is exactly the reason it should be restricted. Also, consider that the alternative to the blanket restriction is probably nothing less than going in weapon by weapon, mod by mod, and deciding in each possible case whether or not each possible mod setup is game-breaking. That's too much time and effort to go through for the sake of pleasing an irrelevantly small fraction of the player base, and it will also need to be repeated as new mods come out to ensure balance is maintained.

Compare that to "Your super-special weapon that's already hugely powerful on account of scaling off of 2 different sets of mods, and having its own unique properties that make it objectively better than 80% of existing weapons no matter how they're built, trades off being able to access some of the more min-max-ey mods available." Which of these sounds more fair to both the player base and the devs? If you think it's the former rather than the latter, your opinions on game balance just might be worthless.

Aside from that, you're painting a flawed portrait of the balancing process. While some nerfs were pretty drastic (Remember the Tonkor? Pepperrige Farms remembers.), and drastically necessary (Miragulor says hi), you're glossing over a whole bunch of huge buffs. Snipers as a whole now now are terrifying in skilled hands where before they were only worth running in niche cases, and the Quartakk is one of the best rifles in the game where previously it was kinda trashy.

And not only do we have examples of significant changes in response to significant need, but we also have many examples of small adjustments back and forth over a period of time to get a weapon or warframe into the "goldilocks zone" where everything is just right for what it's meant to do.

Your thread isn't any form of compelling argument or meaningful discourse. It's more like an aggravating mess created by some self-entitled customer reaching too far and knocking over an entire shelf of salt at the local grocery.

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15 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Your thread isn't any form of compelling argument or meaningful discourse. It's more like an aggravating mess created by some self-entitled customer reaching too far and knocking over an entire shelf of salt at the local grocery.

Hey sorry bud if I offended you, but you can't just attack me like that ok? And I do think there are things in the game that have been nerfed or buffed but they haven't been "balanced". You are blowing a lot of things out of proportion here with my example.

Remember the Chroma nerf? DE said they didn't want their eidolons getting 1 shotted, well, eidolons still get one shotted, but now Chroma sees next to no use (except for diehard Chroma mains, I respect you poor souls) in any other mission type other than eidolons. They nerfed his damage a lot, but also nerfed his tankiness to death. DE had said awhile before this (remember when syndicates were introduced, and they nerfed mags greedy pull and others instead of making standing less grind heavy, ya the community got mad) they wouldn't nerf a thing just because 1 game mode was affected by it. Seems like Chroma got bit in the ass thinking he was in the clear, shrug.

Now DE is human, they all are. But the way you paint them is as if they're telepathic geniuses that perfectly nerf and buff aspects of their game in accordance with the community. Sure they do it a lot better that some companies, but they still have flaws. I wouldn't call the lack of conversation of Chroma on DE's part, but an abundance of complaints in the communities part as something that has been addressed.

And don't forget this thread is to talk about nerfs, I'm not ignoring buffs that happened because I'm a misconstrued self entitled customer, I'm ignoring buffs because my post is about the nerfs that don't seem justified, not the glorious buffs of Valhalla. I do recognize that there have been glorious buffs but it doesn't relate to the topic at hand, I want to address the bad, not cover it up with the good.

Edited by birdobash
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Maybe I should make another thread about we should focus more on buffs than nerfs... Zephyr is still down in the dumps, so is Wukong, Nyx rework wasn't enough, Titania rework was ok but meh-ish. We need more reworks like Nezha's, Actual good reworks.

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46 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

If being able to put Bladed Rounds or whatever on the Regulators was as inconsequential as you are attempting to paint it, then you lose nothing from the blanket restriction because the build was already pointless. If it was actually worth putting on due to imparting significant advantage, then that is exactly the reason it should be restricted. Also, consider that the alternative to the blanket restriction is probably nothing less than going in weapon by weapon, mod by mod, and deciding in each possible case whether or not each possible mod setup is game-breaking. That's too much time and effort to go through for the sake of pleasing an irrelevantly small fraction of the player base, and it will also need to be repeated as new mods come out to ensure balance is maintained.

First of all, theres a reason bladed rounds is not used in normal pistol builds, and that's because the bonus you get from the trigger is bad compared to any other mod you could slot in.

With argon scope, you typically CANNOT even use it with peacemaker because peacemaker auto aims at the body and not the head, unless with the playstyle, you shoot ABOVE the enemy, where the head is in line with the body and the peacemaker.

First of all, the playstyle is not objectively "inconsequential" or even "significantly advantageous" as you painted it. It is simply a different creative way to use peacemaker, and it is a trade-off of merits the ability has. Trading in widespread turret killing blocked by LOS, with fast paced killing not blocked by LOS (unless theres a roof) that has the new disadvantage of a smaller killzone. It is a trade-off, it was equivalent to an augment mod (the ones that actually change the ability instead of straight up giving it a buff).

And ik that this certain example, even if we wanted to keep it, would probably not have happened even in some alternate universe, since the nerf was supposed to be for bringing peacemakers access to acolyte mods in line with the other exalted weapons. The Nerfs were not warranted mechanically but due to standards already established. Even so, I personally had hoped it would have stayed.

Edited by birdobash
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5 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Also, Acolyte mods were never, ever intended to work with Exalted Weapons, because most Exalted Weapons would be broken if they did.

Yes, in their current state, exalted weapons would be broken with Acolyte mods, but the way Acolyte mods were implemented to prevent that was a weird design decision. The problem at the time was that Exalted Blade and Hysteria (and to a much, much lesser extent, Primal Fury) made the entire melee class totally irrelevant, because you could get several times as much DPS, a bunch of extra effects, and they were only metered by a measly 3 energy per second. And DE's solution to this, rather than reigning in the power of these abilities, or adjusting their uptime so that they stopped making an entire class of weapons irrelevant (or maybe not making the mods quite so powerful??), was to introduce mods that they can't use... But then later introduce stuff like Condition Overload, which is arguably stronger than Blood Rush and can be used by Exalted Blade. 

So what you end up with is a category of weapons that sorta work like the weapon class they belong to, and they mostly use the same mods, except for this one set of mods from this one event. And you also end up with Baruuk getting an ultimate that feels really weak. 

Like I understand the reasoning at the time of Shadow Debt to disallow these mods on exalted weapons, but the way the game has aged since then, I really wish they'd figured out a better way to limit the power of exalted weapons. 

54 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

If being able to put Bladed Rounds or whatever on the Regulators was as inconsequential as you are attempting to paint it, then you lose nothing from the blanket restriction because the build was already pointless.

Now I am by no means advocating allowing Bladed Rounds on Peacemaker without massive changes somewhere else in the ability, but I almost feel like it would be inconsequential for the overwhelming majority of the game's content. Peacemaker is just so damn powerful that its time to kill wouldn't go up all that much because its time to kill is near-instant in basically any relevant content in the game right now.

But I'd say that says a lot more about how broken Peacemaker's damage is already than it does about any interaction with Bladed Rounds. 

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5 hours ago, birdobash said:

EXACTLY! I glad you agree with me! If shes powerful without it, and it's just a different playstyle, why did DE decide to waste working time they couldve spent someplace else on something unnecessary? Ths only thing they basically did was destroy a branch of diversity with the nerf.

Reading this through, he wasn't agreeing with you. The point of the comment was that DE was bringing the ability in line with the other Ability Weapons, none of which can slot the Acolyte mods. That is why some balance changes come out as nerfs, because it's not desired for there to be exceptions to a rule.

Whether that rule is actually something that needs changing overall? That's a debate you can get into.

But making something an exception purely because you think it isn't so bad to in your opinion? Not going to happen.

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