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Shields are underpowered - Buff?


Muzure
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I think everyone knows that. I think it would make sense to buff shields just a little bit

for example

as long as you got at least 1 shield point, you wont get physical procs - corpus would get tankier and players wouldnt build for grineer only

(they are always tankier than corpus, in any way, even if you build for them, corrosive will over strip and does less dmg then, or you build a viral/slash which even then corpus are more fragile.)

 

-armor and shield would be kinda even

-magnetism element wont be a waste anymore

-slash would get nerfed

-frames like mag or hydroid would get tankier (shield mods are no longer garbo)

-the impact proc will get buffed (because it wont appear that often anymore, lol, impact vacuums posterior)

 

i would love to see this, even as an event for a weekend as a test, thats just an idea

just to take the fear from overpowered buffs, which some ppl tend to have



thank you for reading, merry christmas

Edited by Muzure
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12 minutes ago, Muzure said:

I think everyone knows that.

Sadly about 50% of the playerbase and too many partner don't know that and use (or advise for) Redirection. [Quote: Redirection is the best mod on any Frame and mandatory to all builds! I will not name them though]

 

As for your idea. Dunno how it will work out in practice but it sounds pretty good and it makes kinda sense (at least in a balance view)

16 minutes ago, Muzure said:

i would love to see this, even as an event for a weekend as a test, thats just an idea

DE really should read this. Event like test are also a good idea. There are still too many cases were the Update/Hotfix doesn't work as intended and sometimes takes too long to fix.

 

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4 minutes ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

Many options were proposed, like shield gating, which is one of the most popular, but we're still waiting for it to actually happen

That one was scrapped because they figured out it won't work as intended and also it is a buff to the corpus because those use shields too.

 

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Gerade eben schrieb Sziklamester:

That one was scrapped because they figured out it won't work as intended and also it is a buff to the corpus because those use shields too.

 

dont they need a buff? sure they do damage, but you will be able to take the dmg because your shields are buffed too
and a buff shouldnt neccessary mean every mob gets it too, maybe only bosses or rare mobs

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8 minutes ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

Many options were proposed, like shield gating, which is one of the most popular, but we're still waiting for it to actually happen

fixing problems takes time away from making new content and considering how content has slowed down to a crawl since PoE I just don't see DE having any chance of implementing shield changes. they seem on the verge of giving up oin Melee 3.0 right now, so... things aren't looking great in that department

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Just now, Muzure said:

dont they need a buff? sure they do damage, but you will be able to take the dmg because your shields are buffed too
and a buff shouldnt neccessary mean every mob gets it too, maybe only bosses or rare mobs

Shields needs changes and buffs I just said they scrapped the shield gating idea because they does not found a way to implement it properly. Same like the weakspots because that meant to be harder to kill enemies but they also figured out from the test an avarege player could spend 5-10 min to kill one single unit. That is in a hordeshooter game is nonsense so they scrapped.

 

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In my opinion, Shields need to either block all status effects (bar Magnetic, or Magnetic proc should change) -or- should benefit from Armor.  The main response I've seen as to why Armor doesn't reduce damage to Shields is that the attack doesn't actually get through the Shields and thus doesn't hit Armor but by that logic it shouldn't be able to cut me, poison me, set fire to me etc.  If the attack is making contact in a manner that can cause a status effect then it must be hitting the surface of the Warframe i.e. it's Armor, so the Shields must only be reducing the force of the attack to a point where it is enough to prevent Health damage without preventing contact in which case the value of Armor should be taken into account.

I'm also in favour of Toxin not bypassing Shields (why does Proto Shields list Toxin as a weakness when Toxin is never applied to it?) and in favour of changing the Magnetic proc as it's fairly redundant to remove a percentage of Shields when you are already doing massive Shield damage, especially when the targets that have enough Shields for that to be worthwhile (bosses) tend to be immune.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Rawbeard:

fixing problems takes time away from making new content and considering how content has slowed down to a crawl since PoE I just don't see DE having any chance of implementing shield changes. they seem on the verge of giving up oin Melee 3.0 right now, so... things aren't looking great in that department

giving up? they said they will implement m3.0 partially, time after time

and i dont think editing shields will take that much effort

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1 hour ago, Rawbeard said:

fixing problems takes time away from making new content and considering how content has slowed down to a crawl since PoE I just don't see DE having any chance of implementing shield changes. they seem on the verge of giving up oin Melee 3.0 right now, so... things aren't looking great in that department

Melee 3.0 is coming you know, they even said that they already did a lot of work on it & that they were gonna implement it just like for pets 2.0, 1 part at a time

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Cubic Clem:

No invulnerability.. that would be op lol ^^ 

I'd also like armor to affect shields.. 

invulnerability for 250ms then? i mean its just for avoiding getting 1shot and on higher levels you get 1shot by everything, so iframes to handle rifles, multiple bombards or snipers would be cool

Edited by Muzure
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8 minutes ago, Muzure said:

invulnerability for 250ms then? i mean its just for avoiding getting 1shot and on higher levels you get 1shot by everything, so iframes to handle rifles, multiple bombards or snipers would be cool

They've tested it repeatedly in house and mostly ends up being garbage, so nah, no invulnerability.

Shields work fine as they are: Immunity to minor attrition damage for warframes that are great at quickly stopping or preventing attacks to begin with.

Also plenty strong on frames that can apply heavy damage resistance to them.

Edited by TheGrimCorsair
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vor 1 Minute schrieb TheGrimCorsair:

They've tested it repeatedly in house and mostly ends up being garbage, so nah, no invulnerability.

Shields work fine as they are: Immunity to minor attrition damage for warframes that are great at quickly stopping or preventing attacks to begin with.

i dont see the reason why
if it would share the cd with rolling guard, i see no problem

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I'd like to see (probably not all of them together)

1. Armor effect shields in some capacity, even if it's as simple a value as armor is added to shield total at a 1:1 ratio.

2. Mods or abilities that reduced recharge start delay, instead of all the recharge speed stuff there is.

3. Overshield limit based on frame instead of a kind of universal value, with some frames being capable of getting a lot more, instead of just...one frame having that niche.

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While shield gating will likely not happen and using the armor value to bluster shields will just make tank frames even harder to kill. The issue is that buy their very nature shields will simply not be useful in some instances. lets take two frames at opposite ends of the spectrum: valkyr and revenant, Valkyr having the highest armor value and revenant having the highest shield value. Now I do not think we need to rehash how tough valk can be on her own 600 armor = 66% dr and 300 health but as a trade off for that she only has 150 shields giving an effective hp of 1050. Revenant has 105 armor about 25% dr  and 300 health but has 675 shields giving an Ehp of 1080. 

Now lets push those base stats like a standard player would (with out arcanes). 

Valkyr fully moded for health and armor has and armor of 2100 = a 87.5% dr and a health value of 920 giving an Ehp of 7510. Modding revenant for shields brings the shield value to 2070 and the Ehp to 2475. Now to save time we will go all in modding for shields then health and armor and going as far as I can brings his stats to 2340 shield, 1040 health and 267 armor about 47% dr bring the Ehp to 4305, this just breaks past half of valkyr's Ehp and gives up almost all your mod slots.

Revenent dose have one more edge to him in that the bulk of his Ehp is shields and they naturally recharge at a rate of 15 =.05(max shield) at a base after 3 seconds. Warframe is a fast game and shields are flimsy but after 3 seconds Rev can charge 103 sheild per sec if undamaged. that is the part that I feel could be changed as a small test. 

I think that removing the recharge delay could be the change that needs to happen for some frames. it would allow frames like rev to increase their suitability for some content but still keep the tank frames really tanky and there would be multiple ways to mod for it you could go with bulk shields or increase recharge with things like Fast Deflection. now for frames like loki it will not really help but that is a topic for another time, but for frames that take chip damage, or use an ever recovering hp, or an other form of dr for their suitability it would allow them to keep up with the stack on the armor and watch me tank rockets with my face.

The math might be kinda off but this is the change I would like to see.

TLDR removing the recharge delay would be a good idea.

Edited by Umquaptovis
TLDR
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2 hours ago, Xenox_Ilz-ot said:

Melee 3.0 is coming you know

yes, it's coming, they did a lot of work... and last dev stream they basically said "we have no idea how any of this works, so we have to figure out how to deliver it to test it" which is basically "we are ready to drop it, if it turns out to require too much effort"

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3 hours ago, Muzure said:

giving up? they said they will implement m3.0 partially, time after time 

if you don't read between the lines it indeed sounds good. if you do, you might remember this sounds like a few prior reworks that got dropped right after similar comments

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I've said this in another topic, but just give player shields a static amount of shield-only damage reduction percentage with bonuses to the damage reduction for a designated amount past a minimum amount.

For example, let's take Excalibur Mag and Valkyr who have 300 450 and 150 shields base at rank 30.

Say we put a flat 10% damage reduction on all their shields which is unaffected by armor, overall it benefits Mag the most due to higher shields while Valkyr would have the least benifit even stacking shields with redirection. 

Then to serve as a boon to frames that otherwise don't have the armor of say, Valkyr (who clocks in at 600 base, whereas Mag only has about 10% of that in armor) while not dramatically increasing the power of frames that may have hybrid potential, like Excalibur, which has 300 health and shields as well as 225 armor, but still serving as a buff to shields as a whole.

After that, for frames that can reach over 1000 shields, there can be system that increases the damage reduction by a certain percentage (say 1-2%) for every, say 100 shields past 500 (obviously this would need more math to test for effectiveness and to check to see if I'm insane and this would flip the balance to shields > armor+health)

I feel like this can serve as a way to increase the survival abilities of frames which rely more on shields and lack armor and could make shield stacking a saving grace for otherwise currently overly squishy frames, while still making the frames have no backup plan if their shields fail since their health and armor won't save them.

Of course its not like anyone will read this

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vor 34 Minuten schrieb Umquaptovis:

While shield gating will likely not happen and using the armor value to bluster shields will just make tank frames even harder to kill. The issue is that buy their very nature shields will simply not be useful in some instances. lets take two frames at opposite ends of the spectrum: valkyr and revenant, Valkyr having the highest armor value and revenant having the highest shield value. Now I do not think we need to rehash how tough valk can be on her own 600 armor = 66% dr and 300 health but as a trade off for that she only has 150 shields giving an effective hp of 1050. Revenant has 105 armor about 25% dr  and 300 health but has 675 shields giving an Ehp of 1080. 

Now lets push those base stats like a standard player would (with out arcanes). 

Valkyr fully moded for health and armor has and armor of 2100 = a 87.5% dr and a health value of 920 giving an Ehp of 7510. Modding revenant for shields brings the shield value to 2070 and the Ehp to 2475. Now to save time we will go all in modding for shields then health and armor and going as far as I can brings his stats to 2340 shield, 1040 health and 267 armor about 47% dr bring the Ehp to 4305, this just breaks past half of valkyr's Ehp and gives up almost all your mod slots.

Revenent dose have one more edge to him in that the bulk of his Ehp is shields and they naturally recharge at a rate of 15 =.05(max shield) at a base after 3 seconds. Warframe is a fast game and shields are flimsy but after 3 seconds Rev can charge 103 sheild per sec if undamaged. that is the part that I feel could be changed as a small test. 

I think that removing the recharge delay could be the change that needs to happen for some frames. it would allow frames like rev to increase their suitability for some content but still keep the tank frames really tanky and there would be multiple ways to mod for it you could go with bulk shields or increase recharge with things like Fast Deflection. now for frames like loki it will not really help but that is a topic for another time, but for frames that take chip damage, or use an ever recovering hp, or an other form of dr for their suitability it would allow them to keep up with the stack on the armor and watch me tank rockets with my face.

The math might be kinda off but this is the change I would like to see.

TLDR removing the recharge delay would be a good idea.

there are frames, way tankier than valkyr even when armor would apply on shields.... and those tanks dont care about shields nor would they benefit from a highly armored shield (inaros, nidus, mesa, baruuk maybe too)

i dont know what you expect to happen, when there will be other frames tankier than others... because we already have them

edit: the only thing i can see, is that less low ranked players will dip out early in missions
i think a buff like that would give DE a chance to make difficult contend, without cheesing everything to absurd amounts of scaling

Edited by Muzure
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34 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

yes, it's coming, they did a lot of work... and last dev stream they basically said "we have no idea how any of this works, so we have to figure out how to deliver it to test it" which is basically "we are ready to drop it, if it turns out to require too much effort"

Try not to be too pessimistic about it

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