Shields are underpowered - Buff?

[clxrffdman]

4 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Sadly about 50% of the playerbase and too many partner don't know that and use (or advise for) Redirection. [Quote: Redirection is the best mod on any Frame and mandatory to all builds! I will not name them though]

 

As for your idea. Dunno how it will work out in practice but it sounds pretty good and it makes kinda sense (at least in a balance view)

DE really should read this. Event like test are also a good idea. There are still too many cases were the Update/Hotfix doesn't work as intended and sometimes takes too long to fix.

 

Why would you run redirection currently when Magus Elevate restores health faster than shield regenerate, and gets value from armor. The arguement that "shields can be restored over time" vs health is invalid, as health is incredibly easy to gain back.

[MustBeAStandUser]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb clxrffdman:

Why would you run redirection currently when Magus Elevate restores health faster than shield regenerate, and gets value from armor. The arguement that "shields can be restored over time" vs health is invalid, as health is incredibly easy to gain back.

and for inaros or objectives with hight amounts of health vazarin dash

[Medeucea]

45 minutes ago, clxrffdman said:

Why would you run redirection currently when Magus Elevate restores health faster than shield regenerate, and gets value from armor. The arguement that "shields can be restored over time" vs health is invalid, as health is incredibly easy to gain back.

one time heal for 200, or a constant heal of 75 just as a by product of having 1250 shields\

 

More things theres an arcane that grants 60 shields per second regardless of if you've been damaged or not, an arcane that can instantly refill shields when damaged, and a sentinel mod that instantly refills shields when depleted

[Umquaptovis]

1 hour ago, Muzure said:

there are frames, way tankier than valkyr even when armor would apply on shields.... and those tanks dont care about shields nor would they benefit from a highly armored shield (inaros, nidus, mesa, baruuk maybe too)

i dont know what you expect to happen, when there will be other frames tankier than others... because we already have them

edit: the only thing i can see, is that less low ranked players will dip out early in missions
i think a buff like that would give DE a chance to make difficult contend, without cheesing everything to absurd amounts of scaling

I am highly confused buy your statement. 

My reason for using valkyr was as an example of an extremely high armor frame to compare to an extremely high shield frame revenant, and to illustrate the gap between shield and armor dependent frames. 

There there is an issue with having armor apply to shields as it will interfere with warframes that want to use rage as their source of energy management. using valkyr again if armor were to apply to her shields then when modding for armor your effective shield value would be multiplied buy almost 8 meaning you would need to chew through about 1200 shields to use rage again if they were full, and that is why I am against applying armor to shields. The mechanic is there to buff shields its just nerfed buy a 3 sec cool down that refreshes on any kind of damage you receive.

Removeing the recharge delay would also cause less of a hindrance to warframes like valkyr, chroma, and wukong as the shields inherent fragility they would be depleted on almost every hit allowing rage to still function the way it dose now (the constant might actually buff chroma's vex armor if you miss time it too). and for a frame like zepher or gara where they have their own form of dr or evasion it would give you an alternative way to mod them.

 

[Foefaller]

Shields could slowly build up DR when at max, faster if they have overshields, start to decay once shields are down to a certain level, maybe 50%, and reset when shields are removed. How much the DR caps at could depend on the 'frame (so Mag would have a higher-than-average DR at max shields, and Valkyr would have little, if any) Even if the average is only 10-20%, there would be several warframes where Redirection is now better or at least co-equal to Vitality in terms of adding EHP to the frame.

Another possibility is that they are multiple types of shield settings, that improve protection against specific damage types at the expense of other, but that might be too min-maxy, as one notable reason Vitality is better is that you don't have to adjust for enemy damage (i.e. not going to suddenly die from Toxin because that's what all your EHP is made up of)

1 hour ago, Medeucea said:

one time heal for 200, or a constant heal of 75 just as a by product of having 1250 shields\

 

More things theres an arcane that grants 60 shields per second regardless of if you've been damaged or not, an arcane that can instantly refill shields when damaged, and a sentinel mod that instantly refills shields when depleted

There is no cooldown for Elevate, so you can just spam Transference as many times as you need to heal to full, any time, any where. Pretty sure that would get you more than 75 a second. And most importantly, doesn't require you to first not get hit for a while.

There is also Life Strike, Healing Return, Hunter Recovery, Medi-Ray, additional Arcanes that add Regen to damage, headshots, finishers and staying in Operator Mode, plus an Entire Focus tree devoted to keeping you alive.

Better or worse, there are enough ways to recover health that shield's automatic regen isn't the big drawn it was when Life Strike first came out and was a big massive deal. Shields really do need something that makes them objectively better for certain frames/scenarios at keep you alive under fire, not just be the simplest one to recover.

[Amhiel]

I'd like to jump on the Pro-Shield-Gating bandwagon, I think it'd be the most fun and least complicated solution. And also I wouldn't mind the corpus having it, it'd make them more interesting.

[Mest_Gryder]

I think shields are only there to trigger "when you receive damage then effect XYZ will be activated"
For example Arcane Guardian.

We also can transfer out of the warframe to stop lethal procs.

In my opinion the shields are fine, it rather depends what a warframe combination you have. There is oberon for example that is blocking procs and other warframes like Trinity and Volt and Mag give you overshield.
Then there are defensive Warframes who draw fire, while utility and damage warframes with shields can do what they do.

It depends if people are also ready to take the role they suppose to play or play reasonable.

After all I think shields should have reasonable abilities and that is radiation protection and corrosive protection.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Mest_Gryder

[Medeucea]

36 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

 

There is no cooldown for Elevate, so you can just spam Transference as many times as you need to heal to full, any time, any where. Pretty sure that would get you more than 75 a second. And most importantly, doesn't require you to first not get hit for a while.

First.you cant spam transference and get a heal "anytime, anywhere" with Arcane elevate since you know it has a 75% chance of  healing 200. Second Its a trade off.between a guaranteed 75 shields per second after not getting hit for 3 seconds, or a 75% chance of healing 200 when you enter/exit transference. Lastly why are you comparing  basic shield mechanics vs an Arcane as if this is some kind of victory for Arcanes

 

Quote

There is also Life Strike, Healing Return, Hunter Recovery, Medi-Ray, additional Arcanes that add Regen to damage, headshots, finishers and staying in Operator Mode, plus an Entire Focus tree devoted to keeping you alive.

Better or worse, there are enough ways to recover health that shield's automatic regen isn't the big drawn it was when Life Strike first came out and was a big massive deal. Shields really do need something that makes them objectively better for certain frames/scenarios at keep you alive under fire, not just be the simplest one to recover.

You just compared mods, arcanes, and focus skills to shields innate regen. All while ignoring the vast assortment of mods, and arcanes  that also effect shields 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Medeucea

[SenariousNex]

You would need to raise shields by about at least 10k depending on frame to match the hp. 

[Mest_Gryder]

 

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Medeucea:

First.you cant spam transference and get a heal "anytime, anywhere" with Arcane elevate since you know it has a 75% chance of  healing 200. Second Its a trade off.between a guaranteed 75 shields per second after not getting hit for 3 seconds, or a 75% chance of healing 200 when you enter/exit transference. Lastly why are you comparing  basic shield mechanics vs an Arcane as if this is some kind of victory for Arcanes

 

You just compared mods, arcanes, and focus skills to shields innate regen. All while ignoring the vast assortment of mods, and arcanes  that also effect shields 

it is no secret that there are many mods that seem or are outdated.
Also I only explain what works I do not discuss now every mod, specially comapred from usefull to reasonable.

After all, where do you want to go to? I did not get where we your journel shall get me. Maybe you can infuse a suggestion?

[(PSN)Silverback73]

9 hours ago, Muzure said:

I think everyone knows that. I think it would make sense to buff shields just a little bit

for example

as long as you got at least 1 shield point, you wont get physical procs - corpus would get tankier and players wouldnt build for grineer only

(they are always tankier than corpus, in any way, even if you build for them, corrosive will over strip and does less dmg then, or you build a viral/slash which even then corpus are more fragile.)

 

-armor and shield would be kinda even

-magnetism element wont be a waste anymore

-slash would get nerfed

-frames like mag or hydroid would get tankier (shield mods are no longer garbo)

-the impact proc will get buffed (because it wont appear that often anymore, lol, impact vacuums posterior)

 

i would love to see this, even as an event for a weekend as a test, thats just an idea

just to take the fear from overpowered buffs, which some ppl tend to have

thank you for reading, merry christmas

It’s so simple and makes so much sense.

+1.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

5 hours ago, Umquaptovis said:

While shield gating will likely not happen and using the armor value to bluster shields will just make tank frames even harder to kill. The issue is that buy their very nature shields will simply not be useful in some instances. lets take two frames at opposite ends of the spectrum: valkyr and revenant, Valkyr having the highest armor value and revenant having the highest shield value. Now I do not think we need to rehash how tough valk can be on her own 600 armor = 66% dr and 300 health but as a trade off for that she only has 150 shields giving an effective hp of 1050. Revenant has 105 armor about 25% dr  and 300 health but has 675 shields giving an Ehp of 1080. 

Now lets push those base stats like a standard player would (with out arcanes). 

Valkyr fully moded for health and armor has and armor of 2100 = a 87.5% dr and a health value of 920 giving an Ehp of 7510. Modding revenant for shields brings the shield value to 2070 and the Ehp to 2475. Now to save time we will go all in modding for shields then health and armor and going as far as I can brings his stats to 2340 shield, 1040 health and 267 armor about 47% dr bring the Ehp to 4305, this just breaks past half of valkyr's Ehp and gives up almost all your mod slots.

Revenent dose have one more edge to him in that the bulk of his Ehp is shields and they naturally recharge at a rate of 15 =.05(max shield) at a base after 3 seconds. Warframe is a fast game and shields are flimsy but after 3 seconds Rev can charge 103 sheild per sec if undamaged. that is the part that I feel could be changed as a small test. 

I think that removing the recharge delay could be the change that needs to happen for some frames. it would allow frames like rev to increase their suitability for some content but still keep the tank frames really tanky and there would be multiple ways to mod for it you could go with bulk shields or increase recharge with things like Fast Deflection. now for frames like loki it will not really help but that is a topic for another time, but for frames that take chip damage, or use an ever recovering hp, or an other form of dr for their suitability it would allow them to keep up with the stack on the armor and watch me tank rockets with my face.

The math might be kinda off but this is the change I would like to see.

TLDR removing the recharge delay would be a good idea.

I think another valid comparison is Capacitance Volt vs Valkyr.  At first you would say it’s Augmented vs non-Augment but really it’s just an appropriate Mod to a shield frame vs all the Armor Mods for Armor frames.

Edited December 22, 2018 by (PS4)Silverback73
Word correct can be wiiieerrd...

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I know mods are usually considered a bandaid fix, but the easiest way to make shields relevant is to add new mechanics into mods. what those mechanics are, I'm not quite sure, but since it seems highly unlikely that De will ever take a proper look at shields, I think it may be best to start campaigning for more interesting shield mods. shields are supposed to protect us, but armour and the many methods of health regen do a far better job at higher levels, so instead of treating shields as an extra barrier, we could instead consider adding utility to them instead. look at games like Borderlands for example, which have all kind of weird shields:

- Shields that are massive but lower your overall health

- shields that damage melee enemies and explode elemental damage over an area

- shields that throw out pickups that can be used to restore capacity, and other players could use them too.

- shields that have a chance to absorb a bullet, mitigate it's damage, and add it into your own ammo pool.

these could be implemented as mods, and would allow shields to remain protective at lower levels whilst still adding some kind of utility at higher levels, in ways that other mods and arcanes don't. 

 

[Norfair.Remedy]

Honestly I've thought about this and I think the answer is just to double all shield values.  Double shield recharge rates.  Halve shield recharge delays.  You could either double the frames' shields or (my preference) double the mod benefits.  Double the values for enemies as well.  This would be a pretty quick thing to do (I think) and require no engine re-writes.  It might just be a band-aid but it would be a good one and allow some of these shieldy frames to scale into sortie-level content without crumpling like a dry leaf in a bonfire.

Maybe even make it so a full-quick-refresh-i-cant-even-remember-the-mod-name means you're always regenerating shields with no delay.

The original design idea (easy to recharge shields, hard to heal health but it has armor) was more for lower-level stuff, when you wouldn't be one-shot so much.  But now half the mission space is in one-shot-the-player-land, because even 2k shields is largely irrelevant.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Norfair.Remedy
add last paragraph

[Bacl]

Shield for the moment is weaker than armor for 2 reasons:

The first is that armor is permanent, you will take damage but the armor value stays the same while shield absorb all the damage taken then do deplete very fast.

The second problem is the damage mitigation, armor reduces the damage takken from attacks while shields do not and scales poorly with higher level.

 

So how to fix shields?

Either introduce a mod negating the delay to recharge your shield potentially having them to always recharge a bit like the Aegis Arcane is working once it activates or introduce shield mitigation mods allowing shields to absorb more damage then they currently do.

[_Urakaze_]

[inset mod name]

polarity: D

base drain: 8

rank 0: reduces shield recharge delay by 25%

rank 1: reduces shield recharge delay by 50%

rank 2: reduces shield recharge delay by 75%

rank 3: reduces shield recharge delay by 100%

Isn't this enough? This and adaption would work great together

[clxrffdman]

7 hours ago, Medeucea said:

one time heal for 200, or a constant heal of 75 just as a by product of having 1250 shields\

 

More things theres an arcane that grants 60 shields per second regardless of if you've been damaged or not, an arcane that can instantly refill shields when damaged, and a sentinel mod that instantly refills shields when depleted

Uh, you realize theres no cooldown on transference and you can also run double set of elevate. Spam 5 on any warframe and you are literally invincible on any warframe up to level 100 enemies. Keep in mind that the arcane for shield regen requires you to be damaged to proc and only has a small chance of doing so. Health is easier to restore than shields.

[Umquaptovis]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I think another valid comparison is Capacitance Volt vs Valkyr.  At first you would say it’s Augmented vs non-Augment but really it’s just an appropriate Mod to a shield frame vs all the Armor Mods for Armor frames.

Yes this is true I initially wanted to limit it to just normal shields bout overshields are important too. Right now frames that can generate overshields are the only really viable shield frames atm and they kinda nerfed one into the ground again. with the proposed removal of the recharge delay a bulk of frames will be able to keep up to and maybe match  our current armor frames.  Frames that can generate will likely be the ones that will be directly match and or possibly surpass with an increased need for maintenance as a trade off.

Now overshields do have a capped limit at 1200 as a max foe all but one frame. Noe I am proposing this along with the removal of the recharge delay. that shield mods like redirection and vigor  will have their effects apply to the overshields so you could lean into them as much as you want to if you wanted to mod for a huge bulk of shields that is where harrow would become really tanky (Simple math (1200*2)*7.4= 17760 ) yeah He would be the go to shield tank. now this might seem like it will break the game but it actually balances its self as slash procs and toxin damage still exist, and magnetic could be changed to halt recharge while cutting shields buy 75 % rather than taking our energy for some reason. 

now yes these changes would apply to the corpus as well but we actually will already have the tools to deal with them in game slash, toxin, shield disruption, and magnetic damage would become useful for once. this would also bring the corpus up to being on par with the griner in terms of difficulty and how you would need to load out the fight them effectively for long endurance runs

TLDR yes you make a good comparison, also proposing shield mods effect overshields now along with the removal of the recharge delay.

 

[birdobash]

Shield gating was proposed but evidently dismissed by DE because it quote "wouldn't work well in a game like warframe".

But to be honest I feel like it wouldn't actually be as useless as they think. Being one shotted would be a thing of the past.

 

[DishSoap]

14 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Sadly about 50% of the playerbase and too many partner don't know that and use (or advise for) Redirection. [Quote: Redirection is the best mod on any Frame and mandatory to all builds! I will not name them though]

Because for the longest time Shields were the go to for a defensive option. Since the only thing that could hurt you through shields were Toxic Ancients. However everything has Slash procs now.

[Medeucea]

6 hours ago, clxrffdman said:

Uh, you realize theres no cooldown on transference and you can also run double set of elevate. Spam 5 on any warframe and you are literally invincible on any warframe up to level 100 enemies. Keep in mind that the arcane for shield regen requires you to be damaged to proc and only has a small chance of doing so. Health is easier to restore than shields.

its like you cant understand that they are working as two different mechanics.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Medeucea

[Marvelous_A]

I think shield should have shield regen rate (in %) and cooldown delay scaling with max energy coz caster frames usually have high energy and high shield at the same time. They should offer chance to resist procs too.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[MustBeAStandUser]

the easiest thing would be proc resistance (+ maybe gating for player shields only) 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

DE has two choices with shields: correctly implement them AS shields that block everything (can you imagine Captain Picard ordering shields up and the shields still allow the USS Enterprise to be blown up???) ... or do away with them.

Bypassing shields defeats why shields exist. That is WHY the tank frames TO compensate for the lack of shields have so much health. But for every other frame that depends on shields to survive (Mag for one), bypassing shields is like allowing tanks to have but 500 health. Shield classes have to have their health buffed to compensate for "leaky" shields, or the shields work as they're designed.

The fault is the concept. Shields that are "leaky" needs health buffs to compensate for "leaky" shields.

Because DE insists of "leaky" shields concept, I say do away with shields completely, because shields are NOT designed to allow your own USS Enterprise to be blown up in every epsiode!!!

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

On 2018-12-22 at 2:28 PM, Muzure said:

I think everyone knows that. I think it would make sense to buff shields just a little bit

for example

as long as you got at least 1 shield point, you wont get physical procs - corpus would get tankier and players wouldnt build for grineer only

(they are always tankier than corpus, in any way, even if you build for them, corrosive will over strip and does less dmg then, or you build a viral/slash which even then corpus are more fragile.)

 

-armor and shield would be kinda even

-magnetism element wont be a waste anymore

-slash would get nerfed

-frames like mag or hydroid would get tankier (shield mods are no longer garbo)

-the impact proc will get buffed (because it wont appear that often anymore, lol, impact vacuums posterior)

 

i would love to see this, even as an event for a weekend as a test, thats just an idea

just to take the fear from overpowered buffs, which some ppl tend to have

thank you for reading, merry christmas

Actually i find that shields can be very powerful with the augur set on frames that use abilities a lot like loki etc and using the guardian mod on the robopet thingy i find that with that build type i barepy take any damage to health bar procs which dont affect me with a healer eximus clone down granting regen and immunity to all toxin stuffs